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"Lets not talk about gun control"








17 blog comments below

The numbers

59 dead (as of the time of this post)
Over 500 others injured
The shooter had a rumoured 23 guns in his hotel room, another rumoured 20 + at home

But lets not talk about gun control, "now is not the time" say the politicians Question Shocked
truespeed on Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:18 pm
That is just sad. My prayers go out to all that were affected.
standready on Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:37 pm
Sad and sick about the shootings in Las Vegas. 'Gun Control' is back in the headlines. Just remember one thing - "A gun does not fire by itself". Just like "A knife does not stab or cut by itself" or "A rope form a noose by itself".

Humans kill!
standready on Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:18 pm
I agree Stand. Indeed humans kill - guns don't kill. Plenty of killing in the UK with maximum gun control. Looks as though there is a kill culture everywhere. I wonder how much all of the movies and the bloody TV serials and the simulation kill games that are played have to do with this culture. People are getting more and more desensitized to killing being wrong. There's so much of it everywhere it's getting easier and easier to kill.
deanhills on Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:24 am
deanhills wrote:
I agree Stand. Indeed humans kill - guns don't kill. Plenty of killing in the UK with maximum gun control. Looks as though there is a kill culture everywhere. I wonder how much all of the movies and the bloody TV serials and the simulation kill games that are played have to do with this culture. People are getting more and more desensitized to killing being wrong. There's so much of it everywhere it's getting easier and easier to kill.


There is not "plenty" of killing in the UK

Quote:

In 2015-16 (the twelve months beginning in March), there were 26 fatalities from gun-related crimes in England and Wales (equivalent to 130 because Great Britain 1/5 the size of the US).


Source

Same source has the USA @ 11,004 gun deaths

So the easy availability of guns is the difference, also we haven't had a mass killing for many many years, the last one we had, laws were made almost overnight to ensure it never happened again. Australia did the same thing, and they haven't had one since, coincidence?

Stephen Paddock had over 40 + legally owned guns, who up until 2 days ago, was just "a guy", then one day his arsenal of guns allowed him to kill and maim hundreds of people.

No amounts of checks could have stopped this, the only thing that could and should, would be to change the gun laws on what type and how many guns a person can own.

RE: the TV shows and video games, people the world over watch the same TV shows, the same movies, play the same video games, so I doubt there is any cause and effect.

Paddock doesn't look like someone who plays call of duty to me Smile




standready wrote:
Sad and sick about the shootings in Las Vegas. 'Gun Control' is back in the headlines. Just remember one thing - "A gun does not fire by itself". Just like "A knife does not stab or cut by itself" or "A rope form a noose by itself".

Humans kill!


How many people would a 64 year old man have killed with a knife? Not many, he would have been overpowered in no time.

So what are you suggesting, no gun control? Just carry on regardless?

This logic doesn't work, why not just let citizens have tanks & nukes, afterall nukes don't kill people, people kill people.

People can be violent, and unpredictable, so to ensure the safety of the majority, you need to make sure the the small percent who are liable to commit atrocities, don't have weapons that can kill on an industrial scale.
truespeed on Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:35 am
truespeed,
If a person really wants a gun or a 'bump stop' or anything else, they will always be able to acquire no matter in "controls" in place so I don't see much point.
Nothing stopped a nut from driving a car into a crowd. How do we control that?
standready on Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:41 pm
@Truespeed. There's a huge difference in population size between the US and the UK. 309 million vs 63 million. There's also a huge difference in the size of the two countries, number of big cities and the large travel distances. Like one could easily multiply the UK by 50 states. A large percentage of those 50 states have cities with little crime. One would have to go into more careful comparative statistics if one wanted to compare the crime and terror rates of the two countries. I'd agree that up to a year ago the UK felt a much safer place vs the US, but for me from the outside in the UK has become a not so safe place to visit any longer. I'd definitely not attend any of the large gatherings in London, and I doubt I'll be traveling through the London Airports in the foreseeable future. I guess France and England are out for me, I'd also only travel through Europe if I really needed to. With the US being so huge, one can get to some International Airports with a marginally lower risk - one has a huge selection to pick from. With England there is much less choice available. All of the cheap airfares use London Airports.
deanhills on Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:30 pm
you think that gun owners will just stand there and give away their guns?
what will happen is that those guns all of a sudden have dissapeared and went up into thin air.
outlawing guns would mean that only outlaws will have guns.
having a better background check and banning gun shows where most of the guns are bought will help a lot but banning guns altogether will not prevent batshitcrazy people from buying guns on the black markets.
having a gun for self defence is one thing but having 12 guns like that guy had that's an armory.
another problem is hypocrisy, Full-Auto is not allowed for most people, Semi-Auto is and a bumpfire stock is legal... giving the operator a weapon that can now shoot as fast as a full auto does. WTF...
Marcuzzo on Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:56 am
standready wrote:
If a person really wants a gun or a 'bump stop' or anything else, they will always be able to acquire no matter in "controls" in place so I don't see much point.


I wouldn't know where to go to get an illegal gun, do you? Most people won't, and mass shooters, are not gangsters, they are just ordinary, for the most part, white blokes, who wouldn't even have those type of connections.

I hate the "what's the point" point of view, as if there is nothing that can be done, if this was about anything other than guns, solutions would be found, new legislation would be brought in, and laws rewritten if necessary


standready wrote:
Nothing stopped a nut from driving a car into a crowd. How do we control that?


Perhaps speed bumps on the roads in high risk areas? I am sure things are being looked at in major cities all over the world as we speak.

Remember 9/11? After that they increased security at airports, they also changed the laws so that pilots doors were locked at all times so that nobody outside of the cabin crew could enter, they didn't just accept that terrorists would hijack more planes, they found solutions to stop it happening again.



deanhills wrote:
@Truespeed. There's a huge difference in population size between the US and the UK. 309 million vs 63 million. There's also a huge difference in the size of the two countries, number of big cities and the large travel distances. Like one could easily multiply the UK by 50 states.


The stats in my original post addressed this, it allowed for the increased population size.


deanhills wrote:
. A large percentage of those 50 states have cities with little crime. One would have to go into more careful comparative statistics if one wanted to compare the crime and terror rates of the two countries.


No you don't, just compare the numbers, 11000 gun homicides per year compared to just over 130 (adjusted for population)


deanhills wrote:

I'd agree that up to a year ago the UK felt a much safer place vs the US, but for me from the outside in the UK has become a not so safe place to visit any longer. I'd definitely not attend any of the large gatherings in London, and I doubt I'll be traveling through the London Airports in the foreseeable future. I guess France and England are out for me, I'd also only travel through Europe if I really needed to. With the US being so huge, one can get to some International Airports with a marginally lower risk - one has a huge selection to pick from. With England there is much less choice available. All of the cheap airfares use London Airports.


This has nothing to do with gun control in the USA, terrorists incidents are another topic, but I will say this, if terrorists were able to get guns in the UK so easily, then they would have caused a lot more deaths than they have so far, because so far there hasn't been a single incident of a terrorist mass shooting in the UK, whereas I feel it's only a matter of time before there is one in the USA.



Marcuzzo wrote:
you think that gun owners will just stand there and give away their guns?


I don't think there are many people in the USA asking for a gun ban, just gun controls, changes to the law over what gun types people can own, and yes, I think the majority would be in favour of that, and yes those that would be against it, would still give them up, why? Because if they don't they will be charged with ownership of an illegal weapon.




Marcuzzo wrote:
what will happen is that those guns all of a sudden have dissapeared and went up into thin air.
outlawing guns would mean that only outlaws will have guns.


Nobody is saying outlaw all guns, just certain types, assault rifles that type of thing.

Gangsters, criminals don't tend to shoot your average joe, they shoot each other, but with less guns in circulation, over time they will find it harder and harder to access guns and even those types of deaths would come down.


Marcuzzo wrote:
having a better background check and banning gun shows where most of the guns are bought will help a lot but banning guns altogether will not prevent batshitcrazy people from buying guns on the black markets.


Background checks would not have stopped Stephen Paddock, according to reports he has been a model citizen for 63 years of his life, and as far as I am aware, all of his guns were bought legally, as is the case with pretty much all mass shooters, so that doesn't work clearly.


Marcuzzo wrote:
having a gun for self defence is one thing but having 12 guns like that guy had that's an armory


He had more, he had 20+ in his hotel room alone, plus more at home, and that shouldn't be allowed, so they could even start there, the number of guns a person is allowed to own.


Marcuzzo wrote:
another problem is hypocrisy, Full-Auto is not allowed for most people, Semi-Auto is and a bumpfire stock is legal... giving the operator a weapon that can now shoot as fast as a full auto does. WTF..


Agreed, full autos are banned in the USA, but they allow bump fire attachments, which turns a semi auto into a full auto. If anything, I can see this being the only change they make to the law by banning bump fire attachments, which is not enough, but it will make Trump and his administration look like they are "doing something"

........

So yes, something can be done, the majority in the USA from what I have read, want changes , want more gun control, the NRA and their apologists keep pushing the narrative that there's nothing that can be done, or it's un American, referencing the 2nd Amendment at every opportunity, but something can and needs to be done, changes need to be made, just like they were after 9/11, just like they are after every other thing that happens where deaths to citizens are caused.
truespeed on Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:07 pm
truespeed wrote:
I wouldn't know where to go to get an illegal gun, do you?

First, I don't own a gun! I don't know where but I am sure I could get my hands on an 'illegal' one this weekend without much difficulty.

Personally, There should psych evals before being allowed to purchase and re-eval before say every 4th gun purchase.
standready on Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:25 pm
^^^

Evaluations would not have stopped Stephen Paddock, he was 64, he had no criminal record, I am not saying they wouldn't help, but changing what type of guns and how many are allowed would help more.

And every 4th gun really? You have just seen a man massacre 59 people and injure 100's more and yet you're still advocating people owning multiple weapons?
truespeed on Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:59 pm
No one's advocating guns @Truespeed. Marcuzzo hit it right on the nail for me with if guns were to be outlawed only the outlawed will have guns. The very people we want the guns to be outlawed from. In the final analysis guns don't kill, people do.

I'm also wondering how much of the virtual fantasy type of killing with computer games, violent movies and TV shows have to do with people who behave as idiotic as Paddock did. Like they are doing the games so intensely and incessantly with lack of sleep. It sort of desensitizes them and make virtual gun toting zombies out of them.
deanhills on Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:34 pm
deanhills wrote:
No one's advocating guns @Truespeed. Marcuzzo hit it right on the nail for me with if guns were to be outlawed only the outlawed will have guns. The very people we want the guns to be outlawed from. In the final analysis guns don't kill, people do.


At no point have I said to outlaw ALL guns, I understand Americans have a gun culture, I understand they won't give guns up, what needs to be discussed is where the line should be drawn? So Dean I will ask you, as all your doing is repeating simpleton soundbites like "guns don't kill people, people kill people" so where should the line be drawn? Because at the moment we have the NRA asking for the legalisation of silencers on guns, how many more would have died in Vegas had they not heard the gunshots? Where would YOU draw the line Dean?


deanhills wrote:

I'm also wondering how much of the virtual fantasy type of killing with computer games, violent movies and TV shows have to do with people who behave as idiotic as Paddock did. Like they are doing the games so intensely and incessantly with lack of sleep. It sort of desensitizes them and make virtual gun toting zombies out of them.


Paddock was 64, I highly doubt he played call of duty or any other computer game. This just seems like a Fox news reaction, sensationalising violence in video games and the affects it has on society, anything to shift blame away from the real problems.
truespeed on Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:17 pm
Quote:
Evaluations would not have stopped Stephen Paddock, he was 64, he had no criminal record, I am not saying they wouldn't help, but changing what type of guns and how many are allowed would help more.

And every 4th gun really? You have just seen a man massacre 59 people and injure 100's more and yet you're still advocating people owning multiple weapons?

There should have been a red flag on Paddock purchasing so many within the year. No 'gun control' there!
Yes, people should be allowed to have multiple weapons. You have collectors and then game hunters who use different guns for different games.
Yes, Automatic weapons and conversions kits should be banned. That won't stop illegal sales.
standready on Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:59 pm
standready wrote:
There should have been a red flag on Paddock purchasing so many within the year. No 'gun control' there!


Is there a report somewhere to say where and when he purchased his guns? Because it comes across like you have no problem with the amount of guns he had, or the type of guns he had, only the time frame in which he purchased them?



standready wrote:

Yes, people should be allowed to have multiple weapons. You have collectors and then game hunters who use different guns for different games.


So how many guns in your opinion should a "collector" be allowed to possess?


standready wrote:


Yes, Automatic weapons and conversions kits should be banned. That won't stop illegal sales.


Why did you draw the line at automatic weapons, afterall guns don't kill people, people kill people, don't they?

The biggest mass killing in American history has just happened and the only concession the NRA and the likes are willing to accept is the banning of bump fire attachments.

I have seen lots of stories of mass killings from the USA, but I am yet to see one where an illegal firearm was used.
truespeed on Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:40 pm
No there is no reporting to show how many guns an individual has purchased. There should be a national registry.

A collector can have as many as they want. I won't limit.

Yes, I draw the at automatic and conversions devices (bump stop, etc). Constitution gives us the right to bears arms. I have the right to protect my family.

Does not matter how guns are obtained. Killing whether mass or one is wrong.

Let's just agree to disagree.
standready on Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:51 pm
standready wrote:
No there is no reporting to show how many guns an individual has purchased. There should be a national registry.


Why is this not already a thing? Like cars, every single gun bought and sold should have documents and like cars every single one should be on a national database as to who owns what gun.

Not that this would have stopped the Vegas shootings, or any other mass shooting incident, as all were legally owned guns, but still, it should be done.

standready wrote:
A collector can have as many as they want. I won't limit.


Insane


standready wrote:
Yes, I draw the at automatic and conversions devices (bump stop, etc). Constitution gives us the right to bears arms. I have the right to protect my family.


Coincidentally the NRA's position, why it's almost like you have no mind of your own, but seriously, why not full autos?


standready wrote:
Does not matter how guns are obtained. Killing whether mass or one is wrong.


Of course it's wrong, and it can be stopped with stricter legislation

standready wrote:
Let's just agree to disagree.


Yeah why not because...

standready wrote:
My prayers go out to all that were affected.


Thoughts and prayers, that always works...



So we end up where we started..

truespeed wrote:
"Lets not talk about gun control"
truespeed on Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:44 am



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