You are invited to Log in or Register a free Frihost Account!

Diary of a Neo-Satanist. 2 - The connundrum

Being a curious sort of chap, I decided to check-out my new Deity. Having read through most of the material available I'm presented with a bit of a puzzler...

Satan, it seems, is not really an entity in its own right. Satan is a concept which comes from the Ancient Hebrews and means, literally, 'oppose' or 'obstruct'. It is not the name of an individual, but a role. It is used to refer to anything or anyone obstructing human activity. That last bit is interesting - note that it isn't blocking GOD's will. In fact the first references to Satan in the Old Testament are to Servants of God (Job & Numbers). It transpires that 'Satan' actually means 'the will of God to block/oppose the progress of humans'.

You don't learn that in Sunday school, for some reason.....

Now this, of course, presents me with a problem. I can't very well worship Satan when it turns out that Satan is just a job description. That means I have to look to the creator of Satan (the role) which is Yaweh. But that leaves me worshipping a God that deliberately opposes human progress, drowned all of humankind (except for a 900 yr old man and his family), and enjoys playing nasty tricks on people (getting Abraham to sacrifice his son, insisting that Jephthah kill his daughter ... that sort of thing)...Worshipping some entity that one knows to be a complete b*****d seems a bit odd to me.

Now, obviously, if this entity is omnipotent then there is a problem, but if it turns out that it isn't, then the correct human response, it seems to me, is to take it on and kick it's arse out of the spacetime continuum.

So now all I have to do is work out if Yaweh is omnipotent, and if it is not, then work out what the equivalent of a kick in the nads followed by a Wigan kiss is, for a Hebrew Deity...

15 blog comments below

I think the idea of a God that is evil, cruel or immoral is very interesting, and a new concept to me, since I really considered it in my Islam is man-made thread. It is very different from the Christian concept of God being about love supposedly.

I think you need to take from the example of the Greek Gods. I think those that worshippped the Gods did so in order to 'appease' them, to stay on their good side, because they were afraid of them. Because the Gods were cruel.

That whole idea of loving God and bringing him into your heart etc etc is gone completely, it is a practical thing.

And if a God treats you badly, say, in the scenario where you are created for the enjoyment of another, you are physically and sexually slaved, and you get no reward, then the practical and only choice would be to rebel or revolt. Or in the Greek Gods example, if a God was being cruel to you as some kind of pawn in a game, it would be practical to do all you could to end that situation.

But then, what if succeeding in destroying a cruel God would cause the end of the world, what would the morals be then?
Hello_World on Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:00 am
Also, I was thinking, if a God says it is moral, for example, to rape your wife, does it actually become moral? If so, what is the point of morals?
Hello_World on Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:10 am
Nay, the question is "What is the point of divinely sanctioned morality" or "Are divine morals moral?" Morality maintains worth, but the source of morality, as always, remains important.
Ankhanu on Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:26 am
I am aware that there are many people who claim that there is no such thing as inately right or inately wrong. However, there are a whole range of things that I would deem wrong or right with a substantial case in my favour, and in any case, right or wrong, they would make the God a bastard if he or she proclaimed them.

So... if I would say that a God is wrong, a bastard or whatever, under certain circumstances, does it follow that under any circumstances I should, if I were a believer, question the 'moral' teachings of the God, and consider them secondary to 'logical' ethics?

And as an extension, even for a strong believer, shouldn't they consider the repurcussions of making 'sodomy' bad, before they look to the morals of their God?
Hello_World on Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:16 am
There is an expression of this called the Euthpryo Dilemma:
Is an action good because God commands it, or does God command an action because it is good?

If the former, it follows that morality is arbitrary - anything God wishes it to be.
If the latter, God is arbitrary, since he is merely a messenger for that which exists already.
Bikerman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:31 am
If it is the latter, doesn't that imply that there is something higher than God... and as the religious seem to require a being that created the universe to understand the universe, doesn't that leave them a little empty?

And the former, leaves us with your conundrum of an immoral God.

Interesting dilemma.
Hello_World on Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:51 am
@Hello_World. Read the Bible. God is immoral. Yahweh? Allah? Makes no difference.

1. God orders Abraham to kill his son Isaac.
2. God orders Israelites to pillage the town, kill the non-virgins and children, and spare the virgins to force marriage(or rape them).
3. There's not enough virgins so God orders Israelites to kidnap virgin women on the road.
4. God orders Jephtah to offer his virgin daughter as a sacrifice like some piece of meat. This is probably where virgin offerings to Satan originates.
5. God orders Satan to f*** Job's life. Job then understands that hell definitely tastes like sh*t so Job is forced to worship God. Therefore God is a b*tch.
6. There's too many to mention. If you want more, read the Bible.

And oh yeah. God makes scenarios so people are forced to do incest. That is just sick!
loremar on Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:01 am
@Bikerman. Did you already smell the sulfur? lol.

I understand why you want to be a Satanist. When you go to hell, you'll need it. Wink
loremar on Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:50 am
LOL. I actually found myself wondering, in an idle moment at work, whether I was being honest when I said that, as a 'believer' in the scientific method, evidence of God would persuade me (I was drawing a distinction between my position and that of a theist, at the time).
I think I was, but I think that it might be misinterpreted by some theists to mean 'persuade me to worship that God' - which it would not. I actually agree with Hitchens on this one - if it could be demonstrated that Yaweh DID exist, I would be compelled to acknowledge the reality of the situation and immediately start researching how to kill a God. In the rather unbelievable case of Yaweh being real, I would see anyone worshipping that monster as a pretty poor specimen of humanity, as I see our species.
Bikerman on Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:12 am
If God's ultimate pleasure is for us to worship him then the best way to hurt God(assuming God is real) is to kill all his worshipers....Joke. Razz

Atheist Evangelism might do enough.

We know that Satan is in the side of God so it's not really smart for you to turn yourself into a Satanist.

And if Yahweh is real then what's the chance that Amon-Ra, Marduk, and Zeus exist? Perhaps we can contrive a way to make them kill one another??
loremar on Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:20 pm
Well, if you read the OT, Yaweh was certainly one of a number of Gods, not the only one.
The very term 'almightly God' is a give-away. If there was only one God then the 'almighty' would be superfluous. There are numerous passages in the OT which confirm this - Moses punishes the Hebrews for making 'graven images' to other Gods. The first and second commandments are explicit - leave other Gods alone, and don't make images of them.
There is also a fair amount of evidence that the Hebrews were not at all mono-theistic, as portrayed in Exodus and later tales. The video series I posted in Faith covers this pretty well and interestingly...
Bikerman on Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:45 pm
Just read the wikipedia. This seems to be more clearer to me now. I guess I know very few about it.

@Bikerman. This leads me to think that if you have declared yourself to be a satanist then doesn't that make you guilty of Bluedoll's and Deanhills' accusations? or perhaps guilty in the future?
loremar on Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:07 pm
I just remembered Bluedoll's Atheist Satanism thread.

LOL. Now everything just takes a funny turn.

I think I love this Satanism ideology. Very Happy
loremar on Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:13 pm
LoL, loremar; context is everything in any joke Wink
Ankhanu on Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:27 pm
I just think that Satanic people, have the intelligence to answer question's about ' they religion' other than people who believe IN God!!
All I cam say is,
you live your own life
NickyN on Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:56 am

© 2005-2011 Frihost, forums powered by phpBB.