| Quote: |
The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Fri, 08/22/2008
Hundreds of Christian theology students have been living in tents since a mob of angry Muslim neighbors stormed their campus last month wielding bamboo spears and hurling Molotov cocktails, according to reports by The Associated Press.
The incident comes amid growing concern that Indonesia's tradition of religious tolerance is under threat from Islamic hard-liners.
In talks since the attack, the Arastamar Evangelical School of Theology has reluctantly agreed to shut its 20-year-old campus in east Jakarta, accepting an offer this week to move to a small office building on the other side of the Indonesian capital.
"Why should we be forced from our house while our attackers can walk freely?" asked the Rev. Matheus Mangentang, chairman of the 1,400-student school.
The government of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, which relies on the support of Islamic parties in Parliament, is struggling to balance deep Islamic traditions and a secular constitution. With elections coming next April, the government seems unwilling to defend religious minorities, lest it be portrayed as anti-Islamic in what is the world's most populous Muslim-majority country. |
Why are muslims so frequently intolerant of others who are different from themselves, even other islamic groups?
The number of attacks like this is increasing dramatically in Indonesia and from what I see on world news it is not only here.They're not more intolerant than any other major world religion. It's simply reported on more because A) They're an easy target at the moment B) There is more prejudice, at this time, against Muslims than just about any other group...if they're not on top, they're likely close to it.
I'd have to say that the extremist Muslims are far more intolerant than most other religions. The second place for that award would be fundamentalist Christians.
When's the last time a group of Buddhists burned down buildings belonging to another religious group? When was the last Shinto Jihad? Have you ever heard of Wiccans breaking windows to run the local Christian church out of town? Jews burning Stars of David on people's lawns as a message?
The reason they are easy targets for the media is because they have made themselves easy targets by being bullies. If they didn't do anything worth reporting on, they wouldn't make the 6 o'clock news.
My guess is because they're a newer religion. I remember learning in history classes about what Christians used to do (witch trials, etc.). My personal observations have always been that religions tend to start off more extreme, and they gradually get less extreme. Given that Islam is about 600 years (am I correct?) newer than Christianity, I would look back 600 years and see where Christianity was.
What I said may be complete nonsense. I'm not a history or religion expert. That's just an observation that I remember making in high school.
Though all that about religions evolving over time in a set pattern seems to lack any additional examples, Islam definitely does seem to be more or less equally tolerant as Christianity was 600 years ago.
(How many times have I heard of Islam's current Jihad compared to the Crusades?)
| ocalhoun wrote: |
Though all that about religions evolving over time in a set pattern seems to lack any additional examples, Islam definitely does seem to be more or less equally tolerant as Christianity was 600 years ago.
(How many times have I heard of Islam's current Jihad compared to the Crusades?) |
I lack additional examples, yet I remember learning about other intolerant religions. I don't remember much from history class because I hated history (and religion) when in school. I'll try to browse over some of my old notes or do some additional research. | Jinx wrote: |
| When's the last time a group of Buddhists burned down buildings belonging to another religious group? |
About two years ago, at most.
| Jinx wrote: |
| When was the last Shinto Jihad? |
i can't think of a recent one, but there was that little Shimabara thing, that resulted in the violent repression of Christianity until the 1850s, hm?
| Jinx wrote: |
| Have you ever heard of Wiccans breaking windows to run the local Christian church out of town? |
Given that Wicca is less than a hundred years old, and practised by scattered, isolated adherents in a hostile country... what would you expect?
| Jinx wrote: |
| Jews burning Stars of David on people's lawns as a message? |
i don't know if the JDL has pulled that one specifically. Instead, how about walking into a mosque with an automatic rifle and opening fire?
---
There is no innocent religion. The only religions that have not had atrocities committed in their name yet are the ones that haven't had much of a chance. | Jinx wrote: |
I'd have to say that the extremist Muslims are far more intolerant than most other religions. The second place for that award would be fundamentalist Christians.
When's the last time a group of Buddhists burned down buildings belonging to another religious group? When was the last Shinto Jihad? Have you ever heard of Wiccans breaking windows to run the local Christian church out of town? Jews burning Stars of David on people's lawns as a message?
The reason they are easy targets for the media is because they have made themselves easy targets by being bullies. If they didn't do anything worth reporting on, they wouldn't make the 6 o'clock news. |
The only religion you mentioned that I really haven't heard overly negative things and violent actions about are Wiccans. Which is why I said "major world religion" in my first post. I'm not expert on the subject, but I don't consider Wiccans a major world religion to be honest. | liljp617 wrote: |
| They're not more intolerant than any other major world religion. It's simply reported on more because A) They're an easy target at the moment B) There is more prejudice, at this time, against Muslims than just about any other group...if they're not on top, they're likely close to it. |
You must be joking. How many mosques and Islamic education centers are harrased and closed down by christians each year in the U.S. , the U.K., Europe or Australia or anywhere for that matter?
| liljp617 wrote: |
| It's simply reported on more |
What??? why is it reported more???
This is a 90% muslim country, 90% of the reporters are muslims. Why would they report more on muslim intolerance than christian or hindu intollerance???
| liljp617 wrote: |
There is more prejudice, at this time, against Muslims than just about any other group
|
The prejudice is exercised by the muslims against anyone who disagrees with their view of the world and the minorities dare not get too vocal about it or they will be the next group to be targeted. This is the case in nearly all muslim countries. Try and practice christianity uin Saudi Arabia for example.
This story is from the Jakarta Post. An Indonesian paper in a 90% muslim country.
Please read and think before you quote the typical cliches.
| Indi wrote: |
| There is no innocent religion. The only religions that have not had atrocities committed in their name yet are the ones that haven't had much of a chance. |
This is totally misleading. Indeed most religions have committed atrocities in the past. I believe that, excepting Islam, they have moved forwards with the increase in knowledge and education in the modern world and for the last couple of hundred years religions have been much more rational than they once were, with the exception of Islam.
The fact that they seem to think that Arabic fashion from the 6th century is an integral part of ther religion demonstrates there total detachment from modern reality.
Why must prayer times be screamed over public address systems, even at 4am, in a world where everyone has a wristwatch, alarm clock, hand phone etc which will enable them to be aware of the times to pray?
It is time for muslims to move into the 21st century and demonstrate an ability to live in harmony with the rest of the world. If they cannot do this they will suffer from more of the "George Bush" type responses to their barbarity, which is also an outdated barbaric attitude but I guess you reap what you sow . | paul_indo wrote: |
| Indi wrote: | | There is no innocent religion. The only religions that have not had atrocities committed in their name yet are the ones that haven't had much of a chance. |
This is totally misleading. Indeed most religions have committed atrocities in the past. |
It's most certainly not misleading. It's quite clear, and it's factually accurate (you even admit so yourself). Misleading means "misrepresenting of the truth". It does not mean "not what i want to hear". i did not misrepresent the truth. You just don't want to hear it.
| paul_indo wrote: |
| I believe that, excepting Islam, they have moved forwards with the increase in knowledge and education in the modern world... |
*cough*
| paul_indo wrote: |
| ...and for the last couple of hundred years religions have been much more rational than they once were, with the exception of Islam. |
^_^; Much more rational, eh?
| paul_indo wrote: |
| The fact that they seem to think that Arabic fashion from the 6th century is an integral part of ther religion demonstrates there total detachment from modern reality. |
| paul_indo wrote: |
| Why must prayer times be screamed over public address systems, even at 4am, in a world where everyone has a wristwatch, alarm clock, hand phone etc which will enable them to be aware of the times to pray? |
Yes, why doesn't every Muslim in downtown Bamyan, Afghanistan just check their Blackberry? ^_^;
Hey, why must Christian churches ring bells on Sunday mornings, right? ^_^;
| paul_indo wrote: |
| It is time for muslims to move into the 21st century and demonstrate an ability to live in harmony with the rest of the world. If they cannot do this they will suffer from more of the "George Bush" type responses to their barbarity, which is also an outdated barbaric attitude but I guess you reap what you sow . |
"If they cannot be the way you want them to be, they will get it"? ^_^; And you call them barbaric?
What's wrong with them choosing to live without cell phones and the like? What's wrong with them wearing burqas (in countries that allow it)? What's wrong with them having public announcements for prayer times? As long as they don't force anyone who doesn't want to do those things to take part, let them have their way. There's nothing inherently wrong with any of that - and just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. There's no crime unless they force people to do those things... and they're hardly the only religion in the world today trying to force others to stick by their idiotic religious standards. It's just that their standards are foreign and offensive to you. | Indi wrote: |
| and they're hardly the only religion in the world today trying to force others to stick by their idiotic religious standards. |
They do seem to be trying the hardest though.
I wonder weather the problem is Islam itself, or just the culture of the people that practice it though. (If the two can possibly be separated). | Indi wrote: |
It's most certainly not misleading. It's quite clear, and it's factually accurate (you even admit so yourself). Misleading means "misrepresenting of the truth". It does not mean "not what i want to hear". i did not misrepresent the truth. You just don't want to hear it. |
It is misleading because it does not represent the current situation. you are saying other religions are guilty because of what they did in the distant past. I am saying islam still does it.
| Indi wrote: |
| paul_indo wrote: | | I believe that, excepting Islam, they have moved forwards with the increase in knowledge and education in the modern world... |
*cough* |
Increased tolerance no more inquisitions and burning of books.
| Indi wrote: |
| paul_indo wrote: | | Why must prayer times be screamed over public address systems, even at 4am, in a world where everyone has a wristwatch, alarm clock, hand phone etc which will enable them to be aware of the times to pray? |
Yes, why doesn't every Muslim in downtown Bamyan, Afghanistan just check their Blackberry? ^_^; |
If they have on yea, otherwise they can just use a clock. I think you might be surprise how many have cell phones, most Indonesians has one including maids and street sellers. even in tha villages it is amazing how many have one.
The point is it is easy in the modern world to know when to pray unlike in the 7th century.
| Indi wrote: |
| Hey, why must Christian churches ring bells on Sunday mornings, right? ^_^; |
not these days actually , and certainly not 5 times a day and at 4:00 in the morning or for 2 or 3 hours continuosly, so if you have never lived in a muslim dominated country you don't really know anything about this. Have you ever lived in one?
| Indi wrote: |
| paul_indo wrote: | | It is time for muslims to move into the 21st century and demonstrate an ability to live in harmony with the rest of the world. If they cannot do this they will suffer from more of the "George Bush" type responses to their barbarity, which is also an outdated barbaric attitude but I guess you reap what you sow . |
"If they cannot be the way you want them to be, they will get it"? ^_^; And you call them barbaric? |
Didn't you read what I wrote? I said that they will suffer due to the G W Bush's in the world and that that was also barbaric. I did not support this reaction to them. And not because they are not how I want them to be but because of their actions as reported in this news report.
| Indi wrote: |
What's wrong with them choosing to live without cell phones and the like? What's wrong with them wearing burqas (in countries that allow it)? What's wrong with them having public announcements for prayer times? As long as they don't force anyone who doesn't want to do those things to take part, let them have their way. There's nothing inherently wrong with any of that - and just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. There's no crime unless they force people to do those things... and they're hardly the only religion in the world today trying to force others to stick by their idiotic religious standards. It's just that their standards are foreign and offensive to you. |
Once again have you not read the subject of this post?
They are forcing their beliefs on others on a regular basis by preventing them from following their own beliefs.
| Quote: |
The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Fri, 08/22/2008
Hundreds of Christian theology students have been living in tents since a mob of angry Muslim neighbors stormed their campus last month wielding bamboo spears and hurling Molotov cocktails, according to reports by The Associated Press. |
Well I dont know anyones background so Im not going to be all judgemental n all on your view points but ya know ill express mine 
. I'm not muslim, studied it got a alot of mates who are muslim. Me? I'm sikh (w00t w00t) and i'm from the UK, Birmingham
Islam touchy subject.. alot of people will pounce on ya, some are more liberal. There is alot of generalisation about muslims.. mainly groups who portray the wrong image of the religion (heck we have these groups in every religion). The way I like break islam down is well:
Western muslims - you have a few liberal muslims and also the born and also the strict muslims.
The liberal muslims chill, ya know the relaxed type open minded. The general john "mohammed" smith type (lol should of not used john smith). Open to views, wants to do well, prays every so often. Respects their religion knows things about it. Parents are sound, well off.
Then you have the strict muslims... most of the time chilled.. but you say one thing bad about god (you say god, they'll refer to allah so god = allah). They go ape shit on your ass. Referencing the quran like the back of their hands. They have no view points besides their quran, their parents are strict, their grand parents are worse. Also they well come from a average borderline poor background finanically. Will not really try to understand people unless your muslim.
Arabic lands - strictly islam, follow the book. Some open to views but their whole world is based on the book. You steal cut off your hands, you do prostitution or affair whatever... stoning. You can have up to 4 wives... Your not aloud to be homosexual. Free speech exists but to a limit. Will not really try to understand people unless your muslim.
Now muslims do follow the book, very rarely someone will question the quran... I dont think it has ever been revised? Unlike christainity were it has been revised so many times... One thing muslims will take the mickey out of christains... which bible are they followings man interpration or gods? btw the quran was writtin by a guy called mohammed who was lectured by the angel gabriel i think, but they say he remembered it).
Right the whole converting thing... You convert someone to islam you are granted 14 virgin angels... sounds like a tastey task? but if your victim... unlucky welcome to hell (apparently they have camps and etc). Love is blind, love is unknown, love can be twisted... its how they get ya. I've had a family relative convert was in love.. shipped off to XXXX was stuck there and somehow escaped...
Muslims are very secular unless their the liberal ones. Liberal ones easy going and very pleasant to do conversation with. But if your in a society of strict muslims they wont know you, they dont want to know you. Your not muslim.
Its backward mentality folks all that is, stuck in the dinosaur age and afraid to come out. I work very closely to a muslim guy... in IT never tried to say to me come to islam, yes we have debates he respects my opinion and I respect his fair game. I worked in retail, a guy n girl tried pushing their view points across (not in a financially secure area). See the difference?
So generalisation will happen depends into the type of muslim you run into. *man this post is long*
Also finally - Islam in generalisation terms... the blind following the blind... and thats being a very generalised viewpoint not correct but can apply to some.
Religion should be used as a foundation of moral guidance not how to live your life. Its how I like to put it. Live a good life and im sure god will be proud, what more can god ask for? | paul_indo wrote: |
| Indi wrote: |
It's most certainly not misleading. It's quite clear, and it's factually accurate (you even admit so yourself). Misleading means "misrepresenting of the truth". It does not mean "not what i want to hear". i did not misrepresent the truth. You just don't want to hear it. |
It is misleading because it does not represent the current situation. you are saying other religions are guilty because of what they did in the distant past. I am saying islam still does it. |
Two years ago is the distant past? ^_^;
Read what i wrote. i gave 3 examples and 1 "i don't know" as responses to Afaceinthematrix's 4 questions. Of those 3 examples, one was from the 1850s, and i said straight up that it was from a while ago. The other two are from 1994 and 2006. That's the "distant past"? ^_^;
i am saying other religions are guilty for what they do today (unless two years ago really is the distant past in your world) - and those religions that aren't committing atrocities today are those that either don't have the means or don't have the motivation (almost always the former). The only thing that makes Islam any different is the scale... for the moment. In another 50 years, the pendulum could swing again.
i'm sure you might want to point to something like 9/11 and say that's an example of Islamic violence. Alright, fine. But don't you remember what happened after 9/11? Muslims being harassed by Christians, cases of innocent Muslims kidnapped by US Gestapo and disappeared to Guantanamo, mosques burned (and, in an example of lunacy in the highest, several Sikh temples attacked by people who couldn't tell the difference between Sikhs and Muslims).... Naturally the defensive response is, "Well that was in reprisal for the Muslim violence, so it's still Islam's fault, ultimately," but of course that's a rather narrow view of history, because it's not like the perpetrators of 9/11 had no historical motivations behind their attacks. You can play the blame game all the way back to the foundation of the two religions.
| paul_indo wrote: |
| Indi wrote: |
| paul_indo wrote: | | I believe that, excepting Islam, they have moved forwards with the increase in knowledge and education in the modern world... |
*cough* |
Increased tolerance no more inquisitions and burning of books. |
Increased tolerance is not the same thing as an "increase in knowledge and education", which is what you said. While you may be ok with responding to things you think i said, rather than things i actually said, that's not how i work. If you mean "increased tolerance", say "increased tolerance", don't say "knowledge and education". Now, i will respond to what you actually said.
So Christians have evolved beyond book burnings, hm? Someone forgot to tell the folks that burned Harry Potter books in 2001, then, right? Or the Christians that burned Shania Twain CDs in 2003, eh?
Oh, what am i saying? ^_^; 2003 is the "distant past"!
So how about the Jews burning New Testaments in May, 2008. That's not too far in the past, is it?
But what about the Inquisitions? Well that's hardly a fair example is it? Only one sect in one religion in all history has done Inquisitions. No Pope has ordered an Inquisition in hundreds of years. Does that mean the Catholic Church has improved, or does it mean they've adopted other means of being intolerant? That's debatable. What's not debatable is that your Inquisition example is a little silly... because Islam hasn't done any Inquisitions either, now have they?
Now, i'm going to guess that you don't really mean Inquisitions, you mean either witch hunt-style trials and/or forced conversions (both were part of the Inquisitions, sort of). Now, what do you consider "distant past"? WW2? Because there were tons of cases of both during WW2, by Christians and others. Since then, witch hunts have been rare... in fact, Islam hasn't really done any either. So that leaves forced coversions. Now, there have been many cases of conversion to Islam under threat of violence in the news recently - it's getting to the point that it's turning into a major human rights issue in some places. But they're amateurs compared to some Christian groups. ^_^ Why threaten violence when you can threaten... starvation? There have been allegations up the wazoo of Christian groups offering money (or other goods) to people in poor countries to convert. See India for very recent cases that have attracted a backlash from the predominantly Hindu legislators. i can even give you personal experience from my own childhood - i witnessed Christian missionaries from the US coercing children with things (ranging from toys to candy) to convert. i even took the candy and toys... but not the god. ^_^
| paul_indo wrote: |
| Indi wrote: |
| paul_indo wrote: | | Why must prayer times be screamed over public address systems, even at 4am, in a world where everyone has a wristwatch, alarm clock, hand phone etc which will enable them to be aware of the times to pray? |
Yes, why doesn't every Muslim in downtown Bamyan, Afghanistan just check their Blackberry? ^_^; |
If they have on yea, otherwise they can just use a clock. I think you might be surprise how many have cell phones, most Indonesians has one including maids and street sellers. even in tha villages it is amazing how many have one.
The point is it is easy in the modern world to know when to pray unlike in the 7th century. |
No, i wouldn't be surprised. But tell me, was this speaker system set up before or after these cell phones became somewhat available? Hm?
The fact remains that while technology is more common now than it used to be, it's still not pervasive. You talk about the era of watches and cell phones... it's not there yet. You are, actually, picking on poor countries for finding a way to announce prayer times to poor people that might not have a way to find out otherwise.
And even if it is true that they have other ways of figuring out prayer times... so what? ^_^; Who the hell gives you the right to say how they should run their society? Their population is >95% Muslim, and if they want prayer times announced over loudspeakers, by gum, let them have it. You are quite literally saying their society is "wrong" in some way for no other reason than because it is not the way you want it to be. That is the definition of intolerance. ^_^;
| paul_indo wrote: |
| Indi wrote: | | Hey, why must Christian churches ring bells on Sunday mornings, right? ^_^; |
not these days actually , and certainly not 5 times a day and at 4:00 in the morning or for 2 or 3 hours continuosly, so if you have never lived in a muslim dominated country you don't really know anything about this. Have you ever lived in one? |
Yes. And, i also lived in places where the church bells ring several times a day (yes, they do these days, actually). i also lived right next to an international airport that had the Concorde land weekly... before the baffles were put on its engines. Of the three cases, the Concorde was the most disruptive... but in all cases you didn't even notice it after a while.
(i don't even remember any 4 AM prayer calls. ^_^; i must have slept through them. i don't think i even saw any time before 10 AM or so my whole time in Cairo - it was so fricken hot i slept long and hard.)
If these people want the call to prayer (broadcasted or shouted), why can't they have it? Other than that you don't like it and it annoys you, because that would be intolerance of course. If you don't like, don't go there. If you live there and can't tune it out, leave. Tolerance means... tolerance. ^_^; It's their country, it's their culture, this is what they want (by massive majority and/or tradition)... tolerate it.
| paul_indo wrote: |
| Indi wrote: |
| paul_indo wrote: | | It is time for muslims to move into the 21st century and demonstrate an ability to live in harmony with the rest of the world. If they cannot do this they will suffer from more of the "George Bush" type responses to their barbarity, which is also an outdated barbaric attitude but I guess you reap what you sow . |
"If they cannot be the way you want them to be, they will get it"? ^_^; And you call them barbaric? |
Didn't you read what I wrote? I said that they will suffer due to the G W Bush's in the world and that that was also barbaric. I did not support this reaction to them. And not because they are not how I want them to be but because of their actions as reported in this news report. |
i read exactly what you wrote, and i responded exactly correctly. Did you read what i wrote? ^_^; i said the same thing you did - just now and before.
| paul_indo wrote: |
Once again have you not read the subject of this post?
They are forcing their beliefs on others on a regular basis by preventing them from following their own beliefs. |
Once again, i have read everything, and you have not. i am not condoning Muslim violence, and i am not denying that it exists. i am condemning your ignorance. Muslim intolerance has nothing at all to do with broadcasting prayer times over loud-speakers, wearing old-fashioned clothing, or anything else you mentioned in your original response to me. Ranting about those does not say anything about Islam, it speaks about your intolerance of other cultures.
There is only one crime of intolerance in Islam: forcing Islam on others (and, of course, that's a crime within the religion itself). Wearing old-fashioned clothes, making annoying broadcasts (in their own areas), etc.... that's not Islamic intolerance - that's your intolerance.
i am also responding to you calling what i said "misleading", because it is not. Someone said that, religion-wise, only Islam sparks far more violence and intolerance these days, which may be true, but then they went to suggest that other religions are innocent (at least, that they're innocent these days, which is why i tried to bring up recent examples, not old ones, wherever i could). i pointed out that was false, with examples from the "distant past" of two years ago (and now, in this post, two months ago). Islam may be louder about its intolerance, and Muslims may do violent or intolerant things more often than other religions these days, but other religions are not innocent. Every religion that has had a realistic chance to have a violent past has had a violent past, and even today religious violence continues in virtually all religions. That was what i said - not what you think i said, that was what i actually said - and i still fail to see what is misleading about that.
i say again: Islam may be guilty, but "let he whose religion is innocent cast the first stone". Oops, looks like there's religious violence and intolerance all around, even today - just ask the Falun Gong. There are no innocent religions. "Islamic intolerance" is only a symptom. The real problem is religious intolerance, which, ironically, you are guilty of, too, in your original response to me.Peace.
Alot's been written, and i haven't read it. I'll just reply to the first post. (I'm Muslim by the way)
| paul_indo wrote: |
Why are muslims so frequently intolerant of others who are different from themselves, even other islamic groups?
|
That's quite a big generalisation. There are alot of Muslims all over the world. Depending on their upbringing and culture, they are all probably quite different. There ARE some intolerant Muslims. But there are more tolerant Muslims.
The intolerant ones have been influenced by wahabbism, a sect in saudi arabia, which promotes intolerance and war. Muslim terrorists will usually have links to this group in one way or another.
There have been many tolerant Muslims though and there still are. For example, when spain was under Muslim rule, the Jews had a great time.
| Quote: |
The number of attacks like this is increasing dramatically in Indonesia and from what I see on world news it is not only here. |
I don't know about that. It probably seems that way because the media portrays it that way.
I'd say more, but indi has made the point about any religious group being able to do intolerant things. | paul_indo wrote: |
| Quote: |
The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Fri, 08/22/2008
Hundreds of Christian theology students have been living in tents since a mob of angry Muslim neighbors stormed their campus last month wielding bamboo spears and hurling Molotov cocktails, according to reports by The Associated Press.
The incident comes amid growing concern that Indonesia's tradition of religious tolerance is under threat from Islamic hard-liners.
In talks since the attack, the Arastamar Evangelical School of Theology has reluctantly agreed to shut its 20-year-old campus in east Jakarta, accepting an offer this week to move to a small office building on the other side of the Indonesian capital.
"Why should we be forced from our house while our attackers can walk freely?" asked the Rev. Matheus Mangentang, chairman of the 1,400-student school.
The government of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, which relies on the support of Islamic parties in Parliament, is struggling to balance deep Islamic traditions and a secular constitution. With elections coming next April, the government seems unwilling to defend religious minorities, lest it be portrayed as anti-Islamic in what is the world's most populous Muslim-majority country. |
Why are muslims so frequently intolerant of others who are different from themselves, even other islamic groups?
The number of attacks like this is increasing dramatically in Indonesia and from what I see on world news it is not only here. |
Most Muslims incorporate Islam into their culture and you end up with north africans practicing genital mutilation, and south asians practicing their own set of beliefs, and subcontinent muslims doing their own thing.
I agree that Muslim behaviour in many cases is unacceptable, but instead of targeting Islam, I think the individual should be held accountable, and it should be a matter of perosnal responsibility.It is quite funny how ignorant some people are of the actual "good" Muslim countries and regions...hate to break it to you, but they don't all act like crazy, radical, blood thirsty tyrants.
| liljp617 wrote: |
| It is quite funny how ignorant some people are of the actual "good" Muslim countries and regions...hate to break it to you, but they don't all act like crazy, radical, blood thirsty tyrants. |
Examples of 'good' Muslim countries and regions please.
*waits* | ocalhoun wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | | It is quite funny how ignorant some people are of the actual "good" Muslim countries and regions...hate to break it to you, but they don't all act like crazy, radical, blood thirsty tyrants. |
Examples of 'good' Muslim countries and regions please.
*waits* |
I guess it depends on your definition of good. There are predominantly Muslim countries with Muslim leaders where women are free to walk around in less than giant cloths covering their entire bodies, where women are free to drive, where people aren't slaughtered for being non-Muslim (or having a desire to convert), etc. Like I said, every where that is predominantly Muslim isn't full of raging, blood thirsty, murdering tyrants. There are reasonable Muslims and Muslim leaders...*Waits longer*
Since you are so sure, it should be simple to name an example, right?
| ocalhoun wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | | It is quite funny how ignorant some people are of the actual "good" Muslim countries and regions...hate to break it to you, but they don't all act like crazy, radical, blood thirsty tyrants. |
Examples of 'good' Muslim countries and regions please.
*waits* |
Jordan definitely is a great place. Both Islam and Christianity thrive there.
People from Abu Dubai tell me that Dubai is a good place too. Apparently there are both women who dress in full coverings from head to toe and those that wear miniskirts.
I would have said Iraq as well, but the war's ruined the place.
Syria is a nice place too. Excellent traditional Arab food and drink there. *drools*
I have no idea about Iran. But i don't trust all those media reports saying Iran is out to get us.
Those are the ones off the top of my head, but there are more.
Ultimately there are crazy people in every country. People i know hate the BNP (british national party) because they are apparently a very racist group, and see the BNP as crazy. You've got the klu klux clan in USA.
You can't say that there are no good Muslim countries simply because they are Muslim. There are about 1.4-1.5 billion Muslims on Earth and they are spread out. Each country has its own culture and its own people. Different people from different countries will act differently. The Muslim ones simply all believe that there is no god but Allah.
I guess by "muslim country" you might mean Arab countries. But there are more Chinese Muslims than there are Saudi Arabian Muslims, i think. And Indonesia has the largest Muslim population, and it's not Arab either.
Peace. | loyal wrote: |
| ocalhoun wrote: | | liljp617 wrote: | | It is quite funny how ignorant some people are of the actual "good" Muslim countries and regions...hate to break it to you, but they don't all act like crazy, radical, blood thirsty tyrants. |
Examples of 'good' Muslim countries and regions please.
*waits* |
Jordan definitely is a great place. Both Islam and Christianity thrive there.
People from Abu Dubai tell me that Dubai is a good place too. Apparently there are both women who dress in full coverings from head to toe and those that wear miniskirts.
I would have said Iraq as well, but the war's ruined the place.
Syria is a nice place too. Excellent traditional Arab food and drink there. *drools*
I have no idea about Iran. But i don't trust all those media reports saying Iran is out to get us.
Those are the ones off the top of my head, but there are more.
|
Well, at least somebody can give examples!
*does research*
Jordan: Looks completely perfect, good example!
Abu Dubai: Again, very good
Syria: Some "trafficking in persons" issues, but they seem to be caused by Iraqis mostly.
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP203008 | Quote: |
The regime uses sectarian [tension] in order to intimidate the minorities, especially the Alawi sect, warning it that democratic change will harm its interests - while it knows full well that the Alawi sect, just like all the others, was and still is subject to oppression, poverty, and so on.
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Also some claims of abuse and torture of prisoners...
Syria is a little questionable, but perhaps not enough to meet the stereotype.
Iran: More "trafficking in persons" issues. Seems worse than Syria about that.
http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_10328174 | Quote: |
The laundry list of Iran's crimes against humanity include the execution of minors, the hanging of individuals under the pretext of being criminals (often in mass number, without fair trials), the stoning of women and men to death, the gouging out of eyes, the severing of fingers, the rape and sexual assault of very young girls and women by Iranian officials, the physical oppression and torture of Iran's vibrant youth who protest, and of course violent terrorist acts abroad which has been responsible for the death of Americans, and so many other innocent individuals.
In addition the majority of Iran's population lives in abject poverty because of the massive amounts of money dedicated to developing their nuclear program-Iranians starve to feed the ego and political prowess of their unwanted ruling regime. |
Iran would seem to be a bad example.
| loyal wrote: |
| I guess by "muslim country" you might mean Arab countries. But there are more Chinese Muslims than there are Saudi Arabian Muslims, i think. And Indonesia has the largest Muslim population, and it's not Arab either. |
China probably has more of almost any demographic than any other country. I know they have more English-speakers than the US, for example. That doesn't quite make China an English-speaking country though.
As for Indonesia, that's where the original poster here was talking about in the first place!
