Teachers have guns in texas according to some this makes the world a safer place others think it will have te opposite effect.
What do you think.
| Quote: |
Reuterswebsite
HOUSTON (Reuters) - A Texas school district will let teachers bring guns to class this fall, the district's superintendent said on Friday, in what experts said appeared to be a first in the United States.
The board of the small rural Harrold Independent School District unanimously approved the plan and parents have not objected, said the district's superintendent, David Thweatt.
School experts backed Thweatt's claim that Harrold, a system of about 110 students 150 miles northwest of Fort Worth, may be the first to let teachers bring guns to the classroom.
Thweatt said it is a matter of safety.
"We have a lock-down situation, we have cameras, but the question we had to answer is, 'What if somebody gets in? What are we going to do?" he said. "It's just common sense."
Teachers who wish to bring guns will have to be certified to carry a concealed handgun in Texas and get crisis training and permission from school officials, he said.
Recent school shootings in the United States have prompted some calls for school officials to allow students and teachers to carry legally concealed weapons into classrooms.
The U.S. Congress once barred guns at schools nationwide, but the U.S. Supreme Court struck the law down, although state and local communities could adopt their own laws. Texas bars guns at schools without the school's permission.
(Reporting by Jim Forsyth in San Antonio; writing by Bruce Nichols in Houston, editing by Vicki Allen)
|
I think people should put more restrictions and start more gun control and banning them from (most)public places. More guns don't make things safer. Needless to say I'm against. Gun control doesn't make us safer, it just makes us easier pickings for the bad guys, and easier for bad governments to control.
I say good job Texas!
Guns aren't the problem. Nor are they the solution. My argument against gun bans and strict, extensive gun control (which can be found in the most recent gun control thread a few threads down) is pretty similar to my argument against firearms in a school. I guess it might deter certain people from going to that step we now know so well, but the solution, once again, goes a hell of a lot deeper into our society than just arming people with more guns. It's too bad they don't focus on how to fix the public school system...fixing it (or at least bringing it up to date) would improve quite a number of things around the country, including crime. 
But I guess actually going to the root of the problem and attempting to solve it requires too much thinking.
I don't like the idea as I feel there are much more prominent issues to deal with in relation to gun violence and school shootings. You can't just walk around handing people guns just so other people might be deterred. Not the root of the problem...
If this is the best solution they can come up with, I have less hope in the people making big decisions than I did before.
And on a side note (once again): Gun bans and overly strict gun control has proven ineffective in the US. Please, please stop saying it's a solution. The places where gun bans have been put into place have increased violence. Please, please look deeper into the equation and stop shouting the first thing that pops into your head. Great post liljp617, I agree the solution to school violence definitely isn't teachers with guns. The kids are obviously not worried about dieing because they kill themselves anyway. Teachers with guns may save lifes, but it certainly doesn't get at the root of the problem.
According to me its safe to have guns with teachers, because what i have read many sad incidents about schools some days back.One were shooting done by a school boy in US and another was murder of teacher by her student because she punished him.And many such things will be there of which we are not aware.So i don't think there is anything wrong if teacher keeps gun with him/her for safety purpose.
Makes me wonder what the hell is going on in the world these days.
I would say that society is maybe failing in it's education and basic philosophies?
Will we eventually see a total breakdown of society in the western world? I hope not as I would be rather worried about the result of such a breakdown.
| Cddhesh wrote: |
| According to me its safe to have guns with teachers, because what i have read many sad incidents about schools some days back.One were shooting done by a school boy in US and another was murder of teacher by her student because she punished him.And many such things will be there of which we are not aware.So i don't think there is anything wrong if teacher keeps gun with him/her for safety purpose. |
More guns does not mean more safety (nor does less guns). There's a reason these kids pick up guns and go shoot people in schools on what now seems to be a near daily basis. People fail to assess this. Instead they try to slap "band-aids" on the problem. And thus, nothing gets solved.But why mandate that they be concealed?
I think they would have a much better deterrent value if they were worn openly.
Personally, I don't see the point of banning guns in school anyway, if they are not banned in other places.
Its just another way our rights are being eroded...
You have the right to free speech EXCEPT when...
You have the right to bear arms, EXCEPT in these places...
| paul_indo wrote: |
Makes me wonder what the hell is going on in the world these days.
I would say that society is maybe failing in it's education and basic philosophies?
Will we eventually see a total breakdown of society in the western world? I hope not as I would be rather worried about the result of such a breakdown. |
i think your fears are well founded. there is a basic deterioration in terms of respect, moral values, home and institutional education - i said before, call me an old fart, but i'm totally bewildered by where the so-called "civilised" world is going.
down the plughole?
cheers | icecool wrote: |
| paul_indo wrote: | Makes me wonder what the hell is going on in the world these days.
I would say that society is maybe failing in it's education and basic philosophies?
Will we eventually see a total breakdown of society in the western world? I hope not as I would be rather worried about the result of such a breakdown. |
i think your fears are well founded. there is a basic deterioration in terms of respect, moral values, home and institutional education - i said before, call me an old fart, but i'm totally bewildered by where the so-called "civilised" world is going.
down the plughole?
cheers |
When was the world civilized?After WWII the western world went into what I would argue was the best period in the history of man.
The economies in these countries boomed, jobs became plentiful and the union movements ensured good wages and conditions. Technological development due to the war made all sorts of neat things available to consumers also boosting the economy.
Most western countries experienced greater freedom and equality than ever before and families generally had a better standard of living than ever before (or since)
This created a safer more affluent society where fewer people needed to resort to crime.
I think this began tapering off in the late 70's or early 80's
| Jinx wrote: |
Gun control doesn't make us safer, it just makes us easier pickings for the bad guys, and easier for bad governments to control.
I say good job Texas! |
Gun control DOES make things safer. If getting a gun is hard shootings wont happen that often.
Not selling guns to people who are crazy, well known law brakers etc. would help to stop getting so much deaths by gunfire.
Also bringing guns in doesn't make things safer. If there are more guns somewhere means that it is more likely someone who is nuts has a gun.
Last edited by Klaw 2 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:46 pm; edited 2 times in total | Klaw 2 wrote: |
| Jinx wrote: | Gun control doesn't make us safer, it just makes us easier pickings for the bad guys, and easier for bad governments to control.
I say good job Texas! |
Gun control DOES make things safer. If getting a gun is hard shootings wont happen that often.
Not selling guns to people who are crazy, well known law brakers etc. would help to stop getting so much deaths by gunfire.
Also bringing guns in doesn't make things safer. If there are more guns somewhere means that it is more likely someone who is nuts has a gun. |
For the last time: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO | liljp617 wrote: |
| Klaw 2 wrote: | | Jinx wrote: | Gun control doesn't make us safer, it just makes us easier pickings for the bad guys, and easier for bad governments to control.
I say good job Texas! |
Gun control DOES make things safer. If getting a gun is hard shootings wont happen that often.
Not selling guns to people who are crazy, well known law brakers etc. would help to stop getting so much deaths by gunfire.
Also bringing guns in doesn't make things safer. If there are more guns somewhere means that it is more likely someone who is nuts has a gun. |
For the last time: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO |
why not? | liljp617 wrote: |
| Klaw 2 wrote: | | Jinx wrote: | Gun control doesn't make us safer, it just makes us easier pickings for the bad guys, and easier for bad governments to control.
I say good job Texas! |
Gun control DOES make things safer. If getting a gun is hard shootings wont happen that often.
Not selling guns to people who are crazy, well known law brakers etc. would help to stop getting so much deaths by gunfire.
Also bringing guns in doesn't make things safer. If there are more guns somewhere means that it is more likely someone who is nuts has a gun. |
For the last time: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO |
i agree with alot of the things you say about standards in education, social injustice, abject poverty, people not taking responsibility. these and many other social factors contribute towards crime - be they violent or non-violent, blue or white collar, criminal or economical.
but even YOU have to admit. and just to taka an extreme example:
in a society where there are NO guns available, NO gun crime would happen.
whereas:
in a society where there are guns available, legally or illegally, some of these guns will get into illegal hands.
in a society where there are guns available but a very strict gun control, the likelihood that these guns are used for illegal activities are less likely. | icecool wrote: |
but even YOU have to admit. and just to taka an extreme example:
in a society where there are NO guns available, NO gun crime would happen.
whereas: |
Obviously But that's quite an unrealistic goal given the current standards and ideologies in the US.
| icecool wrote: |
| in a society where there are guns available, legally or illegally, some of these guns will get into illegal hands. |
Obviously. However, in a country like Switzerland, you have just about every household with a firearm. Their firearm violence is so low, they don't even keep statistics on it.
| icecool wrote: |
| in a society where there are guns available but a very strict gun control, the likelihood that these guns are used for illegal activities are less likely. |
Incorrect. Strict gun control and gun bans have been put in place multiple times in US cities and gun violence A) Didn't drop by even an arguably significant amount B) Didn't change at all C) Increased. Washington DC being the most recent example that I'm aware of (and I went through that in the other thread).
You speak the truth (at least partly) in many things you say. However, the discussion really isn't about guns. It never has been. Because, as I've said many times (
), you can't solve this problem by throwing around gun bans and strict gun control. So to even talk about how gun bans are a solution is a waste of time to be honest. | paul_indo wrote: |
| After WWII the western world went into what I would argue was the best period in the history of man. |
Does man really need to kill millions of his own for us to achieve this?
| paul_indo wrote: |
The economies in these countries boomed, jobs became plentiful and the union movements ensured good wages and conditions. Technological development due to the war made all sorts of neat things available to consumers also boosting the economy.
|
That is economies centered around war production. America's economy quadroupled only because of war production efforts - America were profiting from the blood spilt by Europeans.
The Marshall Plan is what revived the economies of Europe, and only if they had strong trade with the US. The US recovered most their loans by 1949.
| paul_indo wrote: |
Most western countries experienced greater freedom and equality than ever before and families generally had a better standard of living than ever before (or since)
|
Isn't this a global trend?
| paul_indo wrote: |
This created a safer more affluent society where fewer people needed to resort to crime.
I think this began tapering off in the late 70's or early 80's
|
I doubt the crime figures were lower post 1945 than pre 1945. During war, crime of course was at its lowest. However, I cannot agree that from prior to the war and after it, there was a great reduction in crime.
Perhaps crime is increasing from the 60s til now, but then again that would be due to a) Population growth or b) more ways to commit a crime (e.g. speeding, online fraud). And neither a or b (on their own) signifies that society is safer then than it is now.america should just get a stricter systems for guns OVERALL, and they wouldnt have to worry as much about the students coming in with guns, and there would be no need for teachers to bring guns to defend themselves and others from students with guns. It is a bad circle that will just continue as long as this goes on. if teachers get guns, what students will start bringing bombs? then what will the next step be for the teachers?
| LimpFish wrote: |
| america should just get a stricter systems for guns OVERALL, and they wouldnt have to worry as much about the students coming in with guns, and there would be no need for teachers to bring guns to defend themselves and others from students with guns. It is a bad circle that will just continue as long as this goes on. if teachers get guns, what students will start bringing bombs? then what will the next step be for the teachers? |
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!This looks like another step 'forward' towards martial law. See youtube for places in USA already under martial law.
| joomla wrote: |
| This looks like another step 'forward' towards martial law. See youtube for places in USA already under martial law. |
Allowing civilians to carry weapons is a step toward martial law? Sounds like the exact opposite to me.
Respectfully,
MIf you simply think of school shootings as a safety hazard, then it is perfectly reasonable to allow, or even require, that teachers have the proper safety equipment to mitigate the hazard.
And besides, how could it possibly make things more dangerous? If the school teachers wanted to go on shooting rampages, then they could easily do so without any new legislation allowing them to have guns at school.
A "no guns allowed" rule will only deter people who obey rules. Psychos who shoot up schools don't obey rules.
I still have a hard time understanding why america has all these school shootings,while europe doesnt? anyone has any idea? i can say that in sweden teachers are NOT allowed to bring guns to "defend" people, but we still do not have school shootings!
| LimpFish wrote: |
| I still have a hard time understanding why america has all these school shootings,while europe doesnt? anyone has any idea? i can say that in sweden teachers are NOT allowed to bring guns to "defend" people, but we still do not have school shootings! |
america has not only shootings in schools, there are shootings all over - schools only stand out because its done by young people against other young people - which in our twisted moral code is "worse" than "normal" shootings.
it has to do with alot of differnent things, mainly social problems, which can not be solved by banning guns. compare swedens general social system and peoples attitude towards each other and authority and the usa's and you weill find a big difference.
BUT
a stricter control of gun ownership and use could HELP to control the problem in some way.
cheers | icecool wrote: |
america has not only shootings in schools, there are shootings all over - schools only stand out because its done by young people against other young people - which in our twisted moral code is "worse" than "normal" shootings.
|
And putting guns in the hands of teachers makes schools less of a target. Think. If you were a psychopath killer wanting to go on a rampage, where could you find hundreds, or even thousands, of defenseless people clustered together with little or no security? Public events? No, too much security. But schools... they're a very easy target. | LimpFish wrote: |
| I still have a hard time understanding why america has all these school shootings,while europe doesnt? anyone has any idea? i can say that in sweden teachers are NOT allowed to bring guns to "defend" people, but we still do not have school shootings! |
I've gone over the very tip of the iceberg of reasons in multiple threads.this is BAD! itll stop when one of those teachers snaps. and goes on a rampage shooting KIDS.
| athensgames wrote: |
| this is BAD! itll stop when one of those teachers snaps. and goes on a rampage shooting KIDS. |
Probably. I don't trust crazy adults with guns any more than I trust crazy 14 year olds with guns. | athensgames wrote: |
| this is BAD! itll stop when one of those teachers snaps. and goes on a rampage shooting KIDS. |
What historically prevented or currently prevents a teacher from doing that anyway? This ruling doesn't make that scenario any more likely than it always has been.
Respectfully,
MThe world is a safer place if we all had guns!
No! The world is much more unsafe when all "regular" people have the opportunity to buy a guy. That's a fact. I don't know how many "school shooters" there are living in texas. But maybe they should consider to introduce more control when entering at school (metal detector)..
But it is also a opportunity just to give all the teachers a gun so they can shoot anyone who seems suspicious This whole issue has been blown out of and taken out of context. I am from Texas and the reason this was implemented is not because of student violence or the teachers being scared of students or fellow staff but to protect from outside intruders. Did any of you read the WHOLE article, http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5945430.html. The article stated that they (the school district) are located on a heavily trafficked highway, and 30 minutes away from the nearest law enforcement; therefore it will take an extended time period for the police to respond. They are worried about an “OUTSIDER”. It only takes an individual with a gun seconds to pull a trigger. Of course if the unthinkable were to happen, the ones running their mouths about the possibility of a teacher packing a licensed and legal handgun, would be the first to complain that the district did nothing to protect the students, and staff.
The next question is: Why not just hire school security? Well, given the specific conditions here of being a community with effectively no police coverage and a district clearly too small to be using resources on its own police department, this seems to be a fairly rational response. School security is not a one-size-fits-all issue. You make a good point.
My concerns (as an ex-teacher) would be that teachers generally spend their time in front of a class. They would not, under those circumstances, be likely to have their weapon within easy reach (at least I would hope not).
I would also be concerned, as an ex-union representative, that my members were being asked to perform a role for which they were not trained and not paid. I take the point that the community is some distance from the nearest police presence, but surely employing a security guard at each school where it was considered necessary - a person trained in the use of firearms and paid to do the job - would make more sense?
My final concern would be personal and legal. Teachers often find themselves in circumstances where they are running about the place solving fights, arguments, visiting parents, walkabout pupils and the like. It would be very easy to loose track of where your weapon was. You might say that the teacher should therefore wear a weapon in a holster, but that is not always convenient or even possible (PE/gym, science labs, sports fields etc). If a pupil got hold of a teacher's weapon (and those who say this could not happen have probably never been a teacher) then the outcome could be horrendous (both personally and legally).
No doubt these issues have been considered by those responsible....
| Bikerman wrote: |
My final concern would be personal and legal. Teachers often find themselves in circumstances where they are running about the place solving fights, arguments, visiting parents, walkabout pupils and the like. It would be very easy to loose track of where your weapon was. You might say that the teacher should therefore wear a weapon in a holster, but that is not always convenient or even possible (PE/gym, science labs, sports fields etc). If a pupil got hold of a teacher's weapon (and those who say this could not happen have probably never been a teacher) then the outcome could be horrendous (both personally and legally).
No doubt these issues have been considered by those responsible.... |
Gun safes and/or trigger locks could still be used, even with those safety measures in place it would still be much faster than the 30 minute law enforcement time.
As for the job description and training issue, I suspect that making it voluntary takes care of that.
Why they don't just get security guards... Beats me... Budget?Im still interested in the fact that schools over there need security. America and Europe are so similar, yet so different! School security is unheard of over here. Metal detectors and stuff sounds like a joke to us but I know it is reality in some places in the US. Why is it so much safer in Europe?
| LimpFish wrote: |
| Im still interested in the fact that schools over there need security. America and Europe are so similar, yet so different! School security is unheard of over here. Metal detectors and stuff sounds like a joke to us but I know it is reality in some places in the US. Why is it so much safer in Europe? |
Because people aren't nuts. | liljp617 wrote: |
| LimpFish wrote: | | Im still interested in the fact that schools over there need security. America and Europe are so similar, yet so different! School security is unheard of over here. Metal detectors and stuff sounds like a joke to us but I know it is reality in some places in the US. Why is it so much safer in Europe? |
Because people aren't nuts. |
That's right all of us Americans are sadistic, genocidal, gun toting lunatics hell bent on killing anything that moves, especially the ones that live here in Texas. And all you Euros are coffee drinking, tea sipping, croissant munching, and seldom bathing tree huggers. You see that statement makes as much sense as your “because people aren’t nuts” statement. I am sorry if I offended anyone in making my point concerning the previous asinine statement.
@Limpfish
It really isn’t that much safer in Europe; although they are not publicized; unless they cause mass causalities general terrorism on the whole is an issue http://www.europol.europa.eu/publications/EU_Terrorism_Situation_and_Trend_Report_TE-SAT/TESAT2007.pdf (talk about nuts there liljp617). Schools shooting are an issue because there are defenseless victims and easy prey. The same is true with churches. There are no “guns” allowed in either location. Shooters look for the path of less resistance. They never want to attack any place where they may be stopped or meet any serious resistance. Just think about how many of these shooters actually were taken alive or arrested by law enforcement. They always seem to take their own lives before either of these two things can happen. And schools shooting do happen worldwide. It’s just that they are more frequent in the US and are more highly publicized and televised. Here are a few references concerning school shootings:
http://www.mibazaar.com/schoolshootings/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting
Once again I apologize if I offended anyone with my eariler statement. There are few things that bother me and stereotypical statements are one of them
