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Labour lose safe seat...





RedRackham
With the the recent results of the London Mayoral election, the Henley by-election and now this crushing defeat in Glasgow, Gordon Brown must know that he is even more unpopular than Herr Thatcher was in her twilight days as PM.

Some political commentators are suggesting that the government are unpopular due to the current economic climate and in particular fuel prices, these are without a doubt important issues but thats not the reason this government is so unpopular, not the whole reason at any rate.

I've voted Labour all my life but no more, there are two issues in particular that are very important but the government have consistently ignored the electorate, those issues are immigration, and continued EU integration. Poll after poll in recent years has clearly shown that the vast majority do not want either.

The stinking bunch of eurocrats who are the current incumbents of the government benches in House of Commons are more interested in second homes (at the tax payers expense) and the John Lewis list than they are about democracy.

Brown should do the decent thing (Ha) and call an election, the country has had enough.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/UKNews1/idUKL399990320080725
bogger
/me senses some hostility towards the EU.
And english eurosceptic, now I HAVE seen everything Razz.

but yes, you're right, brown is in trouble Razz
lagoon
Brown is in trouble, but I think it has more to do with his blunders rather than any merits of the Tories.
Bikerman
Labour's troubles have very little to do with either immigration or EU politics.
The main issues were;
a) Financial - the 10% tax rate abolition, the credit crunch, fuel prices, energy costs, mortgage problems & the general perception that hard times lie ahead.
b) Political - Brown is not a smooth customer. He is seen as distant, pompous and lacking the popular touch.

Immigration is a much larger issue for Tory voters than it is for labour voters. It is certainly an issue but I really don't think it is the (or one of the) major issues.
On Europe - the SNP has a very pro European stance (since it wants an independant Scotland within Europe). People are, rightly, annoyed that they have been denied a vote on the Lisbon treaty (after being promised one in the Labour manifesto) but I doubt this has had any significant effect on recent polls.
I really don't see how MPs stance on Europe has anything at all to do with their expenses. Many Tory MPs are very anti-Europe but I don't see them voting for an abolution of the 'Lewis List' either..
RedRackham
As I said previously, I've voted Labour all my life and the reason I will not be voting Labour at the next election is not because of the credit crunch or fuel prices both of which would be much the same under a tory government. The reason I and (if the many polls over the past few years are to be believed) millions of others have had it with this government is because of Immigration and the EU.

The governments immigration policy is an absolute joke, and has been for a decade. No one knows how many immigrants (illegal or legal) are in the UK because the government stopped counting them in & out! The only time I ever heard a politician speak the truth about Immigration is when David Blunkett (as Home Secretary) was asked how many immigrants were in the UK, he said "I haven't a clue" an honest but damning indictment of a failed immigration policy.

This government has absoluteley no mandate to hand our sovereignty to Brussels without a referendum, it must be patently obvious to everyone that the only reason the government reneged on it's promise to allow us a referendum is because they know perfectly well the country would vote NO.
Bikerman
You have not explained how the Glasgow election could possibly have been a result of either EU policies or immigration.
a) The SNP (the winner) is more pro-Europe than the labour party.
b) Immigration was not raised as an issue in the bye-election. To the best of my knowledge the policy of the SNP is no different to that of the Scottish Labour Party - both are proposing an Australian-type points system.

The simple fact is that neither European policy nor immigration policy has changed much since Blair won the last election. If the primary concerns of voters were, as you propose, the EU and immigration, then they would surely have switched their vote to a candidate from a party with a different line on those two issues. The obvious choice would have been the Tory party. In fact there was a 23% swing from Labour to the SNP, and the Tory vote was a mere 6% in total. That would indicate to me that the EU and immigration were not important issues at all.
RedRackham
I didn't say the Glasgow result was due to the current economic climate or immigration policy, in fact in my opening post I said they were both important issues, but certainly not the only issues and to assume the situation would be very different under any other government would be wrong. One of the reasons we are paying so much fuel duty is thanks to the fuel escalator introduced as a revenue making device by the Tories (3% in 1993 5% by 1997) a situation made worse by Labour in later years.

One of the reasons we are paying so much council tax is to fund immigration, for some years local authorities have been telling the government they have to increase council tax to pay for the influx of immigrants and the pressure that puts on health, education, housing and policing. A head teacher recently said that the kids at her school spoke thirty different languages and they communicate using sign language! would you want your kids to go to that school? Doctors say a ten munite consultation takes three or four times longer when the patient can't speak English which has an obvious knock on effect, and how is it right that a pensioner who has paid tax & NI for the past 50 years is told that the NHS cant afford life saving treatment, yet that same NHS is spending hundreds of millions of pounds every year on people who have never paid a penny to this country. 80% of east european immigrants earn up to the minimum wage (thats the immigrants who are here legally) and as such pay little or no tax and have a negetive effect on GDP but a massive effect on local communities. We, the people who live in this country were not consulted over mass immigration and we have not been consulted over handing our sovereignty to Brussels, this is not democracy and for that this stinking government will be flung from office.
Bikerman
You make no sense. You are welcome to rant about the EU and immigration, but when you try to tie it to election results such as Glasgow (which you clearly did, since YOU chose the title of this thread) you are going beyond personal rant and into the realms of fantasy.
As I have pointed out, anyone in the Glasgow-East bye election who was so concerned about immigration and the EU would not have voted Labour, and would not have voted SNP - they would have voted Tory. They didn't. The overwhelming number voted either Labour or SNP. Both of those parties have similar policies on the EU and on Immigration - in fact the SNP is more pro european.

I agree that people are disillusioned with the Labour government. You are not the only 'lifelong' labour voter here - the same label applies to me. I have voted Labour since Thatcher was in power. Immigration is an issue, as is the EU. Neither of these issues, however, was particularly siginificant in the Glasgow East result.

PS - the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. At the moment Labour are panicking about their chances in the next election. There are already noises being made about Brown's leadership that are reminiscent of the summer which led up to Blair's downfall (the 'letter' that was circulated and led to Blair having to announce a date for leaving his post).
If, as you suppose, the major problem is with EU and immigration policy then I have little doubt that MPs, desperate to keep their jobs, will be urging a change in policy on both issues. Personally I doubt it, since I do not share your analysis.
Terracarnus
I think that Labour is currently in a very difficult position, to the point of being comparable to the last days of John Major's government. Public opinion is at an all time low, there is a debate within the party about Brown's future, they are losing supposedly safe seats to their main opposition rivals - Conservative in England, SNP in Scotland. To put it bluntly, Labour is being buried beneath an avalanche of ****.

Having said that the causes of this cannot be entirely the fault of Labour. The world economy is currently in trouble, and since labour is the party in government the general view is that they could have and should have prevented the problems. This is not helped by the fact that the person who was likely to be blamed for this is the previous Chancellor, who just happens to be occupying Number 10 for the moment. Not only this, but Brown's charisma is somewhat lacking, and in terms of the more likeable politician, opposition leader David Cameron certainly seems a more preferable personality. The same can also be said of foreign secretary David Miliband, who is now emerging as a possible and indeed desired candidate to replace Brown as Prime Minister and leader of the Labour Party.

Having said that, the Tories do have things easy at the moment - since they have no real power outside of the London Assembly, they can concentrate on attacking the Labour Party instead of running the country, so the big question there is can the Tories do better than Labour. At the moment, with Brown at the helm the public opinion would indicate that Cameron would be a more popular leader than Brown, and from the looks of things, Labour are certain to lose the next general election, unless Brown is ousted.

While Labour should think long and hard about whether or not to get rid of Brown, it may be prudent to fall short of coming to a conclusion until after November - with US presidential election, the days of the Bush-Blair alliance may truly be over, and an opportunity to reaffirm the relationship between the two countries with the new president may allow Labour some breathing space to reaffirm attitudes and adapt foreign policy in areas such as the Middle East to suit the popular vote and thereby begin to regain some lost ground. Having said that I doubt anything is currently enough to completely redeem the Labour Party
RedRackham
Bikerman wrote:
You make no sense. You are welcome to rant about the EU and immigration, but when you try to tie it to election results such as Glasgow (which you clearly did, since YOU chose the title of this thread) you are going beyond personal rant and into the realms of fantasy.
As I have pointed out, anyone in the Glasgow-East bye election who was so concerned about immigration and the EU would not have voted Labour, and would not have voted SNP - they would have voted Tory. They didn't. The overwhelming number voted either Labour or SNP. Both of those parties have similar policies on the EU and on Immigration - in fact the SNP is more pro european.

I agree that people are disillusioned with the Labour government. You are not the only 'lifelong' labour voter here - the same label applies to me. I have voted Labour since Thatcher was in power. Immigration is an issue, as is the EU. Neither of these issues, however, was particularly siginificant in the Glasgow East result.

PS - the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. At the moment Labour are panicking about their chances in the next election. There are already noises being made about Brown's leadership that are reminiscent of the summer which led up to Blair's downfall (the 'letter' that was circulated and led to Blair having to announce a date for leaving his post).
If, as you suppose, the major problem is with EU and immigration policy then I have little doubt that MPs, desperate to keep their jobs, will be urging a change in policy on both issues. Personally I doubt it, since I do not share your analysis.


Mmmmm, OK I concede the Glasgow result probably had less to do with Labours EU/Immigration policy that I would have liked, wishfull thinking on my part perhaps however, the two big issues for me (and I sincerely hope millions of others) is the EU and Immigration and that is why for the first time in my life I will not be voting Labour at the next election and (imo) is the reason Labour have taken such a beating in recent by-elections.

I wrote to my local (Labour) MP about the EU and Immigration, in his reply he said he does not agree with referendums and that Immigration was great for the country, that is his opinion and that is the opinion he takes to the house with him. The fact that it is not the opinion of the vast majority of his constituents means nothing to him. He shows the same arrogance to his constituents as the government shows to the country. Democracy is dying under this government.
RedRackham
Terracarnus...

Quote:
Having said that the causes of this cannot be entirely the fault of Labour. The world economy is currently in trouble, and since labour is the party in government the general view is that they could have and should have prevented the problems.


If it were not for Labours EU/Immigration policy I would be voting Labour at the next election. The current economic problems we are experiencing can not be blamed on the government, the situation would be much the same under the Tories. Perhaps the government over the past decade should have addressed the fact that millions of people were/are living on credit however, had the Tories been in office would they have seen this as a problem for the future? I doubt it.
gandalfthegrey
Good ridins' to Olde Labour!!!

I hope the Liberal Democrats over take Labour for Official Opposition in the next election.
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