Yesterday only I come to know that Japan has developed a car engine that runs with water. As they say water is broken down to hydrooxide (or something like this) to flow electrons and the car runs with electricity. The car runs 80km/h speed. It is going to the commercial production now!
Japanese Car - Water as fuel!
Interesting. I would be interested in finding out just how much this is going to cost people who don't want to rely on gasoline to get from point A to point B, or just reduce their dent in the pollution of today's world.
Could you cite where you found that? I want to do some research of my own. If they have that kind of technology, then perhaps I can use it to make other things... ...
Could you cite where you found that? I want to do some research of my own. If they have that kind of technology, then perhaps I can use it to make other things... ...
Some sources would be nice. I am assuming what you meant to say is that the H2O is split into hydrogen and oxygen.
Wouldn't this just be a fuel cell concept?
Fuel cells are very expensive though, if this car is in production, how much does it cost?
Since a fuel cell would have to be fueled with hydrogen and oxygen kept separate (not water), the water has to be split into its component parts at a station somewhere. Then the parts could be fed into the car as fuel.
Wouldn't it be cheaper, easier, and more efficient to just a make it burn the mixture as fuel though? That would be just as clean.
Fuel cells are very expensive though, if this car is in production, how much does it cost?
Since a fuel cell would have to be fueled with hydrogen and oxygen kept separate (not water), the water has to be split into its component parts at a station somewhere. Then the parts could be fed into the car as fuel.
Wouldn't it be cheaper, easier, and more efficient to just a make it burn the mixture as fuel though? That would be just as clean.
I presume you mean Genepax
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/06/15/japanese-car-runs-exclusively-on-water/
Personally I cannot see how this works. It would appear, as has been noted, to be nothing more than a fuel-cell. The water must be electrolysed to produce H and O (in the ration 2:1). Once you produce HHO then you can ignite it to produce water and energy. The problem is (and the one that these inventions never seem to address) you need to put more energy in than you get out. Electrolysis of water is about 70-80% efficient. You then have issues of electrical resistance which reduces the efficiency still further. That means you are putting x amount of energy in and getting (at best) .7x energy out. It makes no sense to me.
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/06/15/japanese-car-runs-exclusively-on-water/
Personally I cannot see how this works. It would appear, as has been noted, to be nothing more than a fuel-cell. The water must be electrolysed to produce H and O (in the ration 2:1). Once you produce HHO then you can ignite it to produce water and energy. The problem is (and the one that these inventions never seem to address) you need to put more energy in than you get out. Electrolysis of water is about 70-80% efficient. You then have issues of electrical resistance which reduces the efficiency still further. That means you are putting x amount of energy in and getting (at best) .7x energy out. It makes no sense to me.
^It makes plenty of sense if only the second half of the process happens in the car. If you split the water into HHO at a gas station, and fill the car up with the separate gases, it would work great.
| ocalhoun wrote: |
| ^It makes plenty of sense if only the second half of the process happens in the car. If you split the water into HHO at a gas station, and fill the car up with the separate gases, it would work great. |
I heard that news on our local television program. One thing keept disturbing my mind, though it would appear most chep and easy solution, what would happen to water?
Till now water wheather be in the form of ice or vapour can again trun back to water again. If water is used as is said for fuel in vehicles, would it turn back to water again. If not what would happen to water?
Till now water wheather be in the form of ice or vapour can again trun back to water again. If water is used as is said for fuel in vehicles, would it turn back to water again. If not what would happen to water?
| shkhanal wrote: |
| Till now water wheather be in the form of ice or vapour can again trun back to water again. If water is used as is said for fuel in vehicles, would it turn back to water again. If not what would happen to water? |
The actual chemistry is very simple.
Start with water
1. 2H2O (+energy) → 2H2 + O2
Then 'burn' the H2 and O2
2. 2H2 + O2 → 2H2O (+energy)
(in other words you start with water, add energy to get gas. You then burn the gas to get water and energy).
The problem is that stage 1 uses more energy then you get from stage 2.
Unless the inventors have found a biological way to do stage 1 (ie producing H2 and O2 from water using some bacteria/fungus/virus or whatever - which I seriously doubt) then there is no way the car can be energy efficient. The normal way to 'split' water is electrolysis - you pass a current through the water using different electrodes. The problem is that you have to generate that current...
So could it be possible that the energy needed in the stage 1 for the electrolysis will come from a source of energy that is not possible to use in the car otherwise.
I am for instance thinking the nuclear energy.
COuld that be used to produced "electrolysed water" that will be then used later in the car.
Maybe it is a stupid idea ...
I am for instance thinking the nuclear energy.
COuld that be used to produced "electrolysed water" that will be then used later in the car.
Maybe it is a stupid idea ...
| fx-trading-education wrote: |
| So could it be possible that the energy needed in the stage 1 for the electrolysis will come from a source of energy that is not possible to use in the car otherwise.
I am for instance thinking the nuclear energy. COuld that be used to produced "electrolysed water" that will be then used later in the car. Maybe it is a stupid idea ... |
No, it is not at all a stupid idea. Yes, the energy could come from any source - nuclear, wind, geothermal, hydro-electric etc. The problem is, of course, that as things stand the energy is likely to come from fossil-fuel burning. If, however, the energy DOES come from an alternative source (and that alternative source is 'cleaner') then, yes, this would be a step forward.
| Bikerman wrote: |
|
No, it is not at all a stupid idea. Yes, the energy could come from any source - nuclear, wind, geothermal, hydro-electric etc. The problem is, of course, that as things stand the energy is likely to come from fossil-fuel burning. If, however, the energy DOES come from an alternative source (and that alternative source is 'cleaner') then, yes, this would be a step forward. |
Even if it does come from fossil fuel plants, it is still a step forward; fossil fuel plants burn much more cleanly and efficiently than cars do, so you get the same amount of energy (actually a little less, but that loss can be disregarded), but less fuel burned and far less pollutants released. Besides, even if the energy for it does come from the normal power grid, as is most likely, some of it will come from clean sources.
Well, it would depend on the effficiency of the unit.
As I said previously you can get efficiencies of 70 plus percent on electrolysis, but that is a close to ideal figure. If the production units are (say) only 20-30% efficient then it could actually be less of a step forward than you think. The devil is in the detail...
As I said previously you can get efficiencies of 70 plus percent on electrolysis, but that is a close to ideal figure. If the production units are (say) only 20-30% efficient then it could actually be less of a step forward than you think. The devil is in the detail...
There is a big conspiracy about that topic.. They have allready develop a car on alternative fuel, but, they will not give it to the free world.. Why...Its simple
| metlec wrote: |
| There is a big conspiracy about that topic.. They have allready develop a car on alternative fuel, but, they will not give it to the free world.. Why...Its simple |
Yes, of course there is. A bunch of hardy anti-petroleum scientists developed a new car that runs on fresh air 50 years ago. They re-wrote the physical laws of the universe in the morning, and after tea applied for a patent. The oil-companies got wind (ouch!) of the design, kidnapped the scientists and stole the patents. They then went on to assassinate both Kennedys (for being too oily for their own good), and fake the moon-landings (damn rockets don't run on petrol - can't have that). For an encore they engineered the 9/11 conspiracy in order to allow Bush to invade Iraq and Aghanistan thus securing oil supplies for the next few decades. There is also a rumour that they framed Roger Rabbit, killed the putty-cat and blew-up the road-runner.
It's all so simple when you see it....
Meanwhile the rest of us just pour used vegetable oil in our diesels and get on with it
we have that here. it was all over on tv but because of politics no one ever persue for the innovation. they even have demos of how one car can turn to water-as-alternative.
| neyconcepts wrote: |
| we have that here. it was all over on tv but because of politics no one ever persue for the innovation. they even have demos of how one car can turn to water-as-alternative. |
I really don't think so....
A website water4gas.com claimed further explaining
| Quote: |
| ased on old "forgotten" US Patents we have developed devices that use a little electricity out of your car/truck battery, to separate water into a gas called "HHO" (2 parts Hydrogen + 1 Oxygen). HHO, also called Brown's Gas, Water-Fuel or Hydroxy, burns beautifully and provides TONS of energy - while the end product is just WATER! Mobile Magazine says: HHO provides the atomic power of Hydrogen, while maintaining the chemical stability of water. |
There is nothing new or mysterious about HHO. It is simply two parts hydrogen to one part oxygen (as the article states).
If you ignite it you get a bang and some energy. This has been known for over a century.....
If you ignite it you get a bang and some energy. This has been known for over a century.....
| shkhanal wrote: |
| Yesterday only I come to know that Japan has developed a car engine that runs with water. As they say water is broken down to hydrooxide (or something like this) to flow electrons and the car runs with electricity. The car runs 80km/h speed. It is going to the commercial production now! |
That is fantastic. It probably won't be long until they are produced for the US, then. That is exciting and they would be very popular, if they will be affordable for everyone. Do you know how much the new cars are going for or how much they are expected to?
| shkhanal wrote: | ||
A website water4gas.com claimed further explaining
|
I've been to that website before. It is not to use HHO exclusively as fuel. The purpose of producing the HHO is to make the regular gas (or diesel) burn much more efficiently. It is said to increase the power and efficiency of an engine by 30%, but it still runs primarily on gasoline.
ya dude.
it's cool.
so the two main problem related to global worming r going to solve.
it's cool.
so the two main problem related to global worming r going to solve.
Wouldn't this just create a whole set of new problems? I'd say that having water to drink is probably more important than having water for transportation, but maybe there's a way that this will all be worked out. Maybe I'm just ignorant on the situation.
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: |
| Wouldn't this just create a whole set of new problems? I'd say that having water to drink is probably more important than having water for transportation, but maybe there's a way that this will all be worked out. Maybe I'm just ignorant on the situation. |
Word. What you said.
| Libby wrote: | ||
Word. What you said. |
Well, there is no reason that fresh water would have to be used - we have quite a lot of sea-water
| Bikerman wrote: | ||||
Well, there is no reason that fresh water would have to be used - we have quite a lot of sea-water |
And sea water works better for electrolysis than fresh water because it has an electrolyte (salt) already mixed in!
As a bonus, the process of breaking it into HHO, then burning it distills it into pure water.
| ocalhoun wrote: | ||
And sea water works better for electrolysis than fresh water because it has an electrolyte (salt) already mixed in! As a bonus, the process of breaking it into HHO, then burning it distills it into pure water. |
That's good. If it works that well, I hope it is widely accepted.
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: |
| Wouldn't this just create a whole set of new problems? I'd say that having water to drink is probably more important than having water for transportation, but maybe there's a way that this will all be worked out. Maybe I'm just ignorant on the situation. |
Good point.
The website is amazingly vague and says it has no plans to sell it to the public. This not making me excited. I also cannot see how it can run on the unprocessed material (Water) The material would have to be processed before adding the processed output into thye car. However the car's structure does not suggest VOLUME, so i'm not sure how it could run very far. 
[/url]
[/url]Here is a link to an article which speaks more to the technology:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080613/153276/
Like Chris said, the system is basically a fuel cell. The difference is that they claim to have developed a new, chemical method to extract hydrogen from water, "eliminating the need for a hydrogen reformer and high-pressure hydrogen tank."
Respectfully,
M
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080613/153276/
Like Chris said, the system is basically a fuel cell. The difference is that they claim to have developed a new, chemical method to extract hydrogen from water, "eliminating the need for a hydrogen reformer and high-pressure hydrogen tank."
Respectfully,
M
I have been reading about these “alternative fuel” devices since the late 1970’s - so far none have come to be realized in any practical sense.
As far as I can remember, water to Hydrogen and Oxygen is feasible, it just it can’t be done fast enough to run a vehicle, and of course you need energy to split the H2O - maybe a gas powered engine.
I have heard about catalysts such as the water storage tank being manufactured from a material that reacts with water to split it without adding additional energy into the mix. This is interesting, but it erodes the water tank and still can not be done fast enough for practical purposes.
My favorite has to be the cosmic radiation device purported to be invented many years ago. This thing was supposed to trap cosmic radiation and power a engine - it even was demonstrated, but the inventor never allowed anyone to see inside the device nor publish his plans. I would really like a car that runs on cosmic rays.
On alternative energy - I think we’ll get there, were just not there yet.
Good thread, very interesting!
As far as I can remember, water to Hydrogen and Oxygen is feasible, it just it can’t be done fast enough to run a vehicle, and of course you need energy to split the H2O - maybe a gas powered engine.
I have heard about catalysts such as the water storage tank being manufactured from a material that reacts with water to split it without adding additional energy into the mix. This is interesting, but it erodes the water tank and still can not be done fast enough for practical purposes.
My favorite has to be the cosmic radiation device purported to be invented many years ago. This thing was supposed to trap cosmic radiation and power a engine - it even was demonstrated, but the inventor never allowed anyone to see inside the device nor publish his plans. I would really like a car that runs on cosmic rays.
On alternative energy - I think we’ll get there, were just not there yet.
Good thread, very interesting!
| Bikerman wrote: | ||||
Well, there is no reason that fresh water would have to be used - we have quite a lot of sea-water :-) |
You could? I wasn't sure if the salt would have any negative effect on the system. I wasn't sure if it would have to be purified out (which would use an incredible amount of energy). Like I said, I'm ignorant on this situation. I haven't done much reading or studying on it.
There are basically 2 issues. Firstly is the splitting of water into hydrogen and oxygen. As has already been pointed out, this is the big issue. It seems unlikely to me that this could be done 'on board' without resorting to some oil-driven engine which would sort of defeat the purpose. The second issue is then burning the resultant H and O - that is the easy bit (that's how conventional hydrogen fuel cells work).
Sea water is easy to electroyse but it obviously requires energy. Where that energy comes from it, to me, the main issue. Engineering a car to run on the resultant H and O is not a major problem - it is already done with several hydrogen cars already on the market - using a HHO fuel cell instead of simply burning H in air presents no major problems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle
Sea water is easy to electroyse but it obviously requires energy. Where that energy comes from it, to me, the main issue. Engineering a car to run on the resultant H and O is not a major problem - it is already done with several hydrogen cars already on the market - using a HHO fuel cell instead of simply burning H in air presents no major problems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle
well the thing about is that the gas companies have friends in high places. so i doubt the new fuel will reach american soil. i doubt its just water though or otherwise ppl would get water from there sinks so it probably has a lil more to it.
It was great, if one day my car can add water and run, it is un believeable, it hope this day will come soon, so we don't need to pay expend fuel cost and evey one can afford it.
One drawback of this, though, is that the HHO gas is extremely explosive. Because it has oxygen already mixed in, it is much more volatile than pure hydrogen, and around 3 times as powerful as gasoline fumes. Also because of the built-in oxygen, it doesn't have to mix with air to burn, like gasoline does.
So, you have a large bomb that will go off with the tiniest spark mounted in a car that could possibly crash at any time...
It would probably be safer to store the H and the O separately in the car, rather than HHO combined. Then, they'll only burn if they leak, and only explode if the hydrogen leaks into an enclosed space.
So, you have a large bomb that will go off with the tiniest spark mounted in a car that could possibly crash at any time...
It would probably be safer to store the H and the O separately in the car, rather than HHO combined. Then, they'll only burn if they leak, and only explode if the hydrogen leaks into an enclosed space.
Forgive me for posting something twice, but since everyone is dissussing the manner by which they are separating the hydrogen and oxygen (but not talking about their system), I thought everyone may have missed my short post which appeared at the bottom of the first page:
Here is a link to an article which speaks more to the technology:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080613/153276/
Like Chris said, the system is basically a fuel cell. The difference is that they claim to have developed a new, chemical method to extract hydrogen from water, "eliminating the need for a hydrogen reformer and high-pressure hydrogen tank."
Respectfully,
M
Here is a link to an article which speaks more to the technology:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080613/153276/
Like Chris said, the system is basically a fuel cell. The difference is that they claim to have developed a new, chemical method to extract hydrogen from water, "eliminating the need for a hydrogen reformer and high-pressure hydrogen tank."
Respectfully,
M
thanks bikerman for the link..
was just about to google it after reading the post...
This car which is shown in the pic came to India recently and runs on electricity...
its too small to be called as a car and too weak to be a bike
was just about to google it after reading the post...
This car which is shown in the pic came to India recently and runs on electricity...
its too small to be called as a car and too weak to be a bike
Fuel cells are very expensive though, if this car is in production, how much does it cost?
| shkhanal wrote: |
| hydrooxide |
Do you mean Hydrogen ?
Hydrogen is part of water (H2O) and cars working with Hydrogen are not new at all ( they are testing them since few years)
Wow, I can't imagine a car accident with 2 cars which works with Hydrogen.
Hydrogen can explode more than fuel I hope they will build the cars to be SECURE... I don't want a car fuelled with hydrogen to explode in the front of my house
That sounds really great! Since there is so much water which can't be drunk but be a kind of fuel , in the sea.
| shkhanal wrote: |
| Yesterday only I come to know that Japan has developed a car engine that runs with water. As they say water is broken down to hydrooxide (or something like this) to flow electrons and the car runs with electricity. The car runs 80km/h speed. It is going to the commercial production now! |
ive heard about water powered cars, but i thought it was patented by some oil sheik. maybe its just a US patent, not sure. but surely, since its the well-being of our WHOLE PLANET, they would just un-patent it.
Sounds good. But I don't think cars on anything else than oil/gasolina would come in the next upcomming years. It would be awesome if it did came !
!That's nothing. Read this article about a grease-powered car.
By Malcolm Brabant BBC News, Greece-Albania border
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7581763.stm
[MOD - quote tags and source added - please use proper quotes when citing a large volume of text from other sources and include your source as a hyperlink - Bikerman]
By Malcolm Brabant BBC News, Greece-Albania border
| Quote: |
|
Chip fat-powered rally driver Andy Pag was ******-a-hoop as he steered his sticker-covered car into the forecourt of a sleepy Greek taverna just over the border from Albania. "Today we have successfully completed our mission," he declared, punching the air with delight. "We have arrived in Greece, powered by nothing but grease!" Nine days after leaving a "greasy spoon" cafe in North London, he and his team of adventurers had achieved their ambition to traverse Europe without using fossil fuels. Instead of filling up at petrol stations, they have been pulling into restaurants and charming often bemused chefs and owners into donating their waste cooking oil. There were some casualties on the way. Two drivers fell for the charms of some Croatian girls and decided to remain on the Dalmatian coast. And another man dropped out when his wife ordered him to attend a family wedding or face a divorce. "We have shown that it can be done," said Esther Obiri-Darko, a London chemistry teacher, and Andy Pag's partner. "The Germans had fantastic oil. I think they change it every day." But in some places they struggled to get supplies. "Some people just didn't get it," said Esther. "But most people wanted to help the environment and were happy to help." Cocktail of oils On arrival in Kalpaki in Greece, the team found a warm reception and obtained a donation from taverna owner Theodora Eleftheria. Mrs Eleftheria led them to a covered plastic barrel containing a toxic-looking cocktail of waste vegetable oil from frying potatoes, and olive oil used for traditional Greek dishes. Andy and Esther rubbed the oil through their fingers, sniffed it, and declared it to be perfect for their purposes. Esther cut a square of muslin and they filtered the oil into a plastic tank. A gaggle of Greeks gathered around the bonnet of Andy's ancient red Peugeot. It has been converted to run on vegetable oil. Others on the expedition were using bio-diesel made from converted waste chip fat. Andy lifted up the bonnet, and showed them a centrifuge used for purifying the grease. "The oil gets very hot and so it gets very thin. And then it goes into the centrifuge where it spins around and because it is very thin, it separates all the water and all the food remains. And all the clean oil comes out the bottom." Mrs Eleftheria had summoned her brother-in-law - a mechanic - and it was clear that he would soon have a major engine conversion job on his hands. "I want my big cars to run on this system," said Mrs Eleftheria. "I think it is very nice for our children. The Earth is telling us to do something. I think it is the best thing to do." Embassy reception The statistics of Andy's odyssey are impressive. He has travelled more than 2,000 miles (3,200km), using about 45 gallons (200 litres) of chip fat. His car has been doing more than 40 miles to the gallon, which he claims is better than normal diesel. And he has also saved more than 350 euros (£300) in petrol station bills. "Hopefully, it will give people a bit of confidence to try alternative fuels, maybe using bio-diesel or converting their cars to vegetable oil," he says. "When I first did it I was really nervous that I was going to wreck my car. But I am now confident that it is a really viable alternative. As far as my driving life is concerned, I really can't see why I would want to buy any fossil fuel ever again." And with that Andy and Esther jumped into their car, overloaded with jerry cans of scavenged chip fat and a giant tent. They were heading to a campsite in Ioannina where they were going to set up the centrifuge and purify the day's pickings. Then they were planning a leisurely cruise down Greece's western coast towards Athens and a celebratory reception at the British Embassy. But this is not the end of the road. Next year Andy plans to circumnavigate the globe with a mixture of cars, boats and planes. And the aircraft, he says, will be powered by aviation fuel made from plastic bags. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7581763.stm
[MOD - quote tags and source added - please use proper quotes when citing a large volume of text from other sources and include your source as a hyperlink - Bikerman]
Yes but there would have to be a huge increase in Fish and Chip shops and the owners would have to have a sideline where they had a small filling station round the back. They could also supply a form of drive through service where fish chips or fuel was resdily available.
Using chip fat in diesel engined vehicles is nothing new. Many people here in the UK have been doing so for some time now (largely because there is no duty on chip-fat so it is MUCH cheaper than diesel).
You can legally run your diesel on cooking fat, but you have to pay duty on it (although I believe there are moves afoot to change this). Many people simply break the law and do it anyway.
At one point you could walk through a local village in North Wales and the smell of cooking chips was overwhelming.
Pretty much any diesel engine will run (unmodified) on used cooking fat.
You can legally run your diesel on cooking fat, but you have to pay duty on it (although I believe there are moves afoot to change this). Many people simply break the law and do it anyway.
At one point you could walk through a local village in North Wales and the smell of cooking chips was overwhelming.
Pretty much any diesel engine will run (unmodified) on used cooking fat.
I wonder if it works with poluted water, by the way we're living nowadays...
I don't see how it's possible to run a car on water. You may be able to split H2O into hydrogen and oxygen, but in a car? And anyway if u could put your hose into the 'petrol' tank and fill it up for almost nothing, why wouldn't they think of making it?
And just something I think, water4gas.com is a hoax!
And just something I think, water4gas.com is a hoax!
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