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Why heaven is also a hell





Klaw 2
After watching a film on youtube. I got a revalation.... for people who believe in heaven:

If you die and loved jesus done good things etc. and end up in heaven.

It may be good for the first couple of million years. But then you'll be bored it will become a torture to life for ever, since everything you want to do you already have done life has no point you life for ever, there is no urgency to do anything it can always be done "tomorow".

People spend time praying to get there, "wasting" some time here on earth to "MAYBE??" go to heaven.

I think heaven is just a product of:
Heaven = mortality + greed
catscratches
Agreed. Living forever doesn't seem like something to strive for.
HalfBloodPrince
It's not going to be like 'living forever' on Earth. But whatever, if Hell suits you enjoy; nice eternal jacuzzi without the wet.
Klaw 2
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
It's not going to be like 'living forever' on Earth. But whatever, if Hell suits you enjoy; nice eternal jacuzzi without the wet.


It's not like on earth you can do all sorts of happy things but you will get bored one day because you have done it all.

And of course hell is worse but heaven will become bad too.
HalfBloodPrince
You're perfectly entitled to your own view. But say you get a choice; Heaven or Hell?
catscratches
I guess they're both just as bad.
juanherrera
Eternity leads to boredom I'd assume... but The Flaming Lips once said:

"Hell's got all the good bands anyway"

Makes me think... perhaps hell is less boring!
johanfh
I think you overlooked something when you said in time heaven will be boring: it's not a place where everything always stays the same, it's a constantly changing place.
I believe heaven looks a little like the description of paradise in the Bible (Genesis and Revelation): a brand new world, with all kinds of plants, animals, etc. Totally brilliant! Where humans are freed of limitations they do possess in this world so they are able to work in that new world, explore new things, etc.
Humankind has enjoyed itself on this world for more than 5000 years now without getting bored at all. With every discovery we make there are hundreds of new things to explore. In heaven I think this will be even more refreshing, because when I watch the world around me I'm every single day more enthousiastic about all the possibilities God created in it, so I'm not afraid I will ever be bored in heaven if it is the most fantastic world.

Yours,
JohanFH
Bikerman
5000 years? Ahh....OK, so you are a creationist then.
Well I think the point would be that 'mankind' is not the same as 'man'. One is a species the other is an individual. I think another point might be that how do you improve perfection? If heaven is perfection then how could it change without either becoming less perfect or more perfect (impossible) ?
When you get a bit older you may find the world a bit less exciting (I hope not). I cannot personally conceive of an 'infinite' existence and I certainly think I would get bored...
Ghost Rider103
That's quite an interesting theory.

I cannot really say that I am religious, but if heaven were to be a place just like earth, but without all the bad things, well then I think I would have to agree it would get kind of boring. Don't you all think that we would get bored on this planet if there was no bad things happening? We wouldn't have anything to talk about anymore.

Just my opinion though, good subject though.
Klaw 2
Bikerman wrote:
5000 years? Ahh....OK, so you are a creationist then.
Well I think the point would be that 'mankind' is not the same as 'man'. One is a species the other is an individual. I think another point might be that how do you improve perfection? If heaven is perfection then how could it change without either becoming less perfect or more perfect (impossible) ?
When you get a bit older you may find the world a bit less exciting (I hope not). I cannot personally conceive of an 'infinite' existence and I certainly think I would get bored...


I agree, mankind is not a individual.

In heaven you could do anything you want climb every mountain see every animal, piece of art, building ever constucted etc. etc. etc. and then what? YOU GET BORED.
xtupie
You might think so but remember the alternative is an eternal Hell, so you decide which it will be:
A) Heaven where you live forever in unimaginable joy, peace and love

OR

B) Hell where you also live forever and experience unimaginable pain, suffering and separation.

Both are eternal!!!.

You were created in God’s image, than means you have soul and a spirit which can never die, death is only your body that dies, this is what God spoke about when He said to Adam and Eve, if you eat of the tree of life you will Die!

Death is a seperation from this world with you loved ones etc. and a new phase in, either with God or without God, does not matter what we believe, we will all appear before Him and be judges weather good or bad. The bible says “..it is appointed unto man to die and then the judgement…”

Remember unlike popular belief Hell is REAL!!! And unfortunately many people end up there BY THEIR OWN CHOICE.

Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven. I suggest you have a look and read what He said about Hell it might change you mind forever.
Klaw 2
xtupie wrote:
You might think so but remember the alternative is an eternal Hell, so you decide which it will be:
A) Heaven where you live forever in unimaginable joy, peace and love

OR

B) Hell where you also live forever and experience unimaginable pain, suffering and separation.

Both are eternal!!!.


I Also said somewhere that hell is worse but heaven will get bad over time

xtupie wrote:

You were created in God’s image, than means you have soul and a spirit which can never die, death is only your body that dies, this is what God spoke about when He said to Adam and Eve, if you eat of the tree of life you will Die!

Death is a seperation from this world with you loved ones etc. and a new phase in, either with God or without God, does not matter what we believe, we will all appear before Him and be judges weather good or bad. The bible says “..it is appointed unto man to die and then the judgement…”

Remember unlike popular belief Hell is REAL!!! And unfortunately many people end up there BY THEIR OWN CHOICE.

Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven. I suggest you have a look and read what He said about Hell it might change you mind forever.


.... Confused Hell is real? What's the proof? And people end up there? How do they achieve that? Really, reading the bible won't get me going to church. End up praying to a god who might not even be there and when there IS a god then wich one is the real? Really i was just saying that heaven will bore you and there are a 100.000.000.000 years after that and then a 100.000.000.000 years after that and then a 100.000.000.000 years after that and then a etc.etc.etc. Really
Greed + mortality = immortality.

O if you didn't know i'm an Atheist so all the "proof" christians have won't work for me.
xtupie
You are entitled to your opinion, but one day you, I everyone will die! Then we will find out the trueth is. Remember 100/100 die!!!

And then what? Where will you be? What if you are wrong?

Weather you believe in God or not does not make a difference but what you do with God does!!!

Enjoy the weekend
Klaw 2
xtupie wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion, but one day you, I everyone will die! Then we will find out the trueth is. Remember 100/100 die!!!

And then what? Where will you be? What if you are wrong?


Yes it's pretty sure everyone will die eventually. However what if you are wrong and that there is no god or heaven or afterlife? You would have spend a large amount of time worshipping a god that doesn't exist.

xtupie wrote:
Weather you believe in God or not does not make a difference but what you do with God does!!!

Enjoy the weekend


What I do with god does does matter? Can you refrase that? Sorry i don't understand what you are mean.
HalfBloodPrince
Klaw 2 wrote:
Yes it's pretty sure everyone will die eventually. However what if you are wrong and that there is no god or heaven or afterlife? You would have spend a large amount of time worshipping a god that doesn't exist.


Well why does it annoy you so much if we're wasting our time?

Think about it from our view. If...

God doesn't exist:
-Believers -> nothing happens
-Non-believers -> nothing happens

God does exist:
-Believers -> Heaven
-Non-believers -> most likely Hell for a variable amount of time.


Who's at greater risk here?
Jinx
hmm... eternal boredom. Maybe that's what started it all. Heaven is there, just percolating along in unchanging perfection... every day the same... till one day Lucifer decides he just can't take the boredom, the unending sameness for another moment, so he decided to shake things up a little. He'll take over, invent strippers and booze, make things a little more interesting.
Of course, that didn't work out so well. God kicks him out - but wait! A change happened... and it was kind of... interesting. God decides that interesting is good, and so He casts around in his cavernous mind for another idea. Finally he settles on reality TV, so he creates the universe so he has something to watch other than the endless perfection that's on all the other Heavenly cable channels.
There, now we have man, with all his flaws and imperfections and infinite variety and capacity for making poor choices. Very interesting. We probably get very good ratings in heaven. But there's got to be more to it - where do we go when we get kicked off the island? So it's set up like a game show. You make good choices, you get to go sit in the green room with friends and family who've already been kicked out and watch the show with all the good eats you can get from the caterers. You make bad decisions - well, you end up in another game show that's not so much fun for the contestants. But the host sure is entertaining.

/tongue-in-cheek
Bikerman
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
God doesn't exist:
-Believers -> nothing happens
-Non-believers -> nothing happens

God does exist:
-Believers -> Heaven
-Non-believers -> most likely Hell for a variable amount of time.

Who's at greater risk here?
I like Richard Carrier's alternative to Pascal's Wager.
Carrier wrote:
Suppose there is a God who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. For all others are untrustworthy, being cognitively or morally inferior, or both. They will also be less likely ever to discover and commit to true beliefs about right and wrong. That is, if they have a significant and trustworthy concern for doing right and avoiding wrong, it follows necessarily that they must have a significant and trustworthy concern for knowing right and wrong. Since this knowledge requires knowledge about many fundamental facts of the universe (such as whether there is a god), it follows necessarily that such people must have a significant and trustworthy concern for always seeking out, testing, and confirming that their beliefs about such things are probably correct. Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless god wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy.
Klaw 2
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
Klaw 2 wrote:
Yes it's pretty sure everyone will die eventually. However what if you are wrong and that there is no god or heaven or afterlife? You would have spend a large amount of time worshipping a god that doesn't exist.


Well why does it annoy you so much if we're wasting our time?

Think about it from our view. If...

God doesn't exist:
-Believers -> nothing happens
-Non-believers -> nothing happens

God does exist:
-Believers -> Heaven
-Non-believers -> most likely Hell for a variable amount of time.


Who's at greater risk here?


Well in a way you can best spend your life not believing and enjoying life, there are thousands of religions, 1 is right the rest is wrong so if I decided to try to go in heaven I will have to pick from one of those. So wich one is the real one?

Secondly if I say okay I wanna go into heaven so I go to church every sunday, wouldn't that god know that I want to go to heaven and further i don't really care.
And of course I back what bikerman said.

According to the bible free will is one of the most important things however many christians have supressed many people who don't believe in their god or no god at all.
Besides I am an atheist (or possibly an agnostic, maybe god started the big bang, but that is about it). If I were to convert I want proof. However a dusty old book is not going to convince me nor the talk of some priests and pro-creationists who don't even know the difference between:
Free speech and science
Evolution of species, the origin of life, gravity, thermodynamics, origin of universe. (Ben stein claimes that because the theorie of darwin can't explain all exept the first one it is wrong)
like in here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8aifay678
(I suggest to look at all 24 parts, if you need new ways to debunk creationists, or you want to have another laugh at the stupidety of creationists "scientists" who claim various thigs).

Also they fail many times by doing a bit of right highschool math about the claimes they make. And also fail at ptting some commen sense in it.
For me religion is just to create a sense of knowledge that they find comfortable for those who follow it.
HalfBloodPrince
LOL...God will totally love you for trying to persuade people He doesn't exist.
Bikerman
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
LOL...God will totally love you for trying to persuade people He doesn't exist.
You should read the quote again. Do you accept things purely because someone says they are true? If so then you will (like most people) assume whatever religious faith your parents subject you to as a child. Is that a true system of faith and morality? I think not - I think it is lazy.
Klaw 2
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
LOL...God will totally love you for trying to persuade people He doesn't exist.


Yet somehow mainly creationist "scientists" try to persuade atheists with mere scientific stupidity and logical fallacies, give me one just one "scientific" argument that god must exist.
HalfBloodPrince
Bikerman wrote:
Do you accept things purely because someone says they are true? If so then you will (like most people) assume whatever religious faith your parents subject you to as a child. Is that a true system of faith and morality? I think not - I think it is lazy.


Uhh...No. As a child, my parents being moderately religious (my mom does not cover her hair), I didn't give to shits about religion. It wasn't until later in my life that I actually thought about it, researched, and realized what a great part of life it can be. I'm not too religious either. I'll never make my wife cover her hair. If I have a daughter I won't make her cover her hair.
HalfBloodPrince
Klaw 2 wrote:
Yet somehow mainly creationist "scientists" try to persuade atheists with mere scientific stupidity and logical fallacies, give me one just one "scientific" argument that god must exist.


But then I don't understand why you have such a problem? You're the ones always going on about religious tolerance, when you're fighting back against it the most! (by you I'm referring to atheists/non religious people). So I ask, who's the intolerant one? I don't care if you believe in God or not; that's your life and your business. If you, however, try to convince me God doesn't exist, I will retaliate and give my reasons for believing in Him. I don't expect you to convert.
Bikerman
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
Uhh...No. As a child, my parents being moderately religious (my mom does not cover her hair), I didn't give to shits about religion. It wasn't until later in my life that I actually thought about it, researched, and realized what a great part of life it can be. I'm not too religious either. I'll never make my wife cover her hair. If I have a daughter I won't make her cover her hair.
Err...so you are saying that your parents weren't Muslim? No I don't think you are saying that are you? And are you saying that if your parents had been Christian then you would have become a Muslim? Hmm. A few people do, but not many...
Klaw 2
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
Klaw 2 wrote:
Yet somehow mainly creationist "scientists" try to persuade atheists with mere scientific stupidity and logical fallacies, give me one just one "scientific" argument that god must exist.


But then I don't understand why you have such a problem? You're the ones always going on about religious tolerance, when you're fighting back against it the most! (by you I'm referring to atheists/non religious people). So I ask, who's the intolerant one? I don't care if you believe in God or not; that's your life and your business. If you, however, try to convince me God doesn't exist, I will retaliate and give my reasons for believing in Him. I don't expect you to convert.


Hmm yet in the past non-religions people were prosecuted by religious people.
Nowaday's religions are still surpressing atheists, in europe it is moderatly however in the US:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbjIYvXpvLM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4fQA9mt-Mg

And I think that is why we care, and i think it is okay for people to believe what ever they want, as long as they don't try to prush their beliefs on them. I have never done that, i merely said what those "scientists" do is blabing the wost stupid things out to prove the existence of the christian god (yes their proof proves that the Chr God exists, not allah or budha Confused ).
As for what is wrong to pursuade some one not believing anymore? It is still his or her choice I'm not forcing anyone.
I respect what you believe I do think you are wasting your time however that is your own choice.
Bikerman
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
But then I don't understand why you have such a problem? You're the ones always going on about religious tolerance, when you're fighting back against it the most! (by you I'm referring to atheists/non religious people). So I ask, who's the intolerant one? I don't care if you believe in God or not; that's your life and your business. If you, however, try to convince me God doesn't exist, I will retaliate and give my reasons for believing in Him. I don't expect you to convert.
I didn't see atheists out on the streets threatening to kill people who mock their lack of belief, did you?
I don't get atheists knocking on my door to ask me if I have discovered that 'the lord Jesus is NOT my saviour'.
I think atheists in general display a remarkable degree of religious tolerance. Check Indi's postings and my own postings. Both of us have said that we will fight (yes, literally) to defend your right to believe whatever you like. We also say that we insist on the right to challenge your beliefs (or any other beliefs). If you call that intolerance then I'm intolerant - intolerant enough to fight for your rights to believe in Islam (or Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or whatever the hell else you want to believe in).
dougblackjr
I totally disagree. We tend to think of heaven in earthly terms; here, we sit around for five minutes we tend to get bored. Heaven is the polar opposite of earth; WE actually become different and find satisfaction in the mere presence of Jesus.

So, where hell is meant as punishment for Satan and demons (wasn't meant for us at all...sad we choose to go there), heaven is not a punishment for believers.

~ Doug
Bikerman
dougblackjr wrote:
I totally disagree. We tend to think of heaven in earthly terms; here, we sit around for five minutes we tend to get bored. Heaven is the polar opposite of earth; WE actually become different and find satisfaction in the mere presence of Jesus.

Ermm...what is the 'polar opposite' of Earth? That would be an 'anti-earth' with negative mass etc - the concept is rather silly. If we become different in this 'anti-Earth' then in what sense can we said to be resurrected? I cannot imagine myself being satisfied in the presence of the biblical Jesus so in what sense would 'I' be 'me' in heaven? Perhaps you are saying that only those who could be satisfied with such an existence will actually go to heaven?
dougblackjr
Yes...polar opposite. Hot is cold, down is up, dogs are cats, girls become monsters, ATMs accept money and send out marshmallows.... Surprised

No, I mean in the "polar opposite" in the sense of our character. 1 Corinthians talks about our bodies becoming like Jesus' resurrected bodies. He could walk through walls, He defeated death, He could shroud His identity. He was still him: He still walked and talked and conversed and had memories and had friends and family and such.

In a similar way, we become different. What does that mean for us? I really don't know. The Bible says, "No eye has seen, no hear has heard, no mind can comprehend...". However, it describes it has an eternal paradise.

Forgive my sarcasm, but I'm glad we can have a good conversation about this!
Bikerman
So, in fact, if it is possible for me to go to heaven then I won't be me? God will do some hocus-pocus and I'll suddenly become ecstatic with the prospect of sitting around worshipping him for eternity? Hmm...I have to say that makes me quite glad I don't believe in the whole concept Smile
dougblackjr
If you love Jesus, it's a joy and a pleasure. God gives us exactly what we want: If He is our reward for life, we get what we want and so much more. If we want to live life our own way, we get hell and everything that comes with that.

So, it's not a question of who we are, it's Who we want (or reject).

~ Doug
Bikerman
Ahh...so it's a question of genetics and upbringing? If you are genetically predisposed to believe in a God and your upbringing happens to choose the correct one then you will go to heaven?
OK..I see..
dougblackjr
What? Genetics?

Where does that come in? Are you sure you are reading the right forum?
Bikerman
dougblackjr wrote:
What? Genetics?

Where does that come in? Are you sure you are reading the right forum?

Oh yes. There is plenty of research that suggests that religion is genetically 'selected'. You should read Susan Blackmore or Daniel Dennett - interesting stuff.

I should say that Blackmore takes the 'mimetic' route rather than the genetic route - interesting nonetheless.
dougblackjr
That's fine....Jesus was genetically predisposed against religion too.

That's why Christianity is about a relationship with Jesus. No one is genetically predisposed to hate relationships.

Well, it was good arguing with you. However, I think I'm finished.
Bikerman
dougblackjr wrote:
That's fine....Jesus was genetically predisposed against religion too.
Interesting hypothesis but not very likely.
Quote:
That's why Christianity is about a relationship with Jesus. No one is genetically predisposed to hate relationships.
So sociopaths and psychopaths are just playing?
Quote:
Well, it was good arguing with you. However, I think I'm finished.
If you say so.
catscratches
dougblackjr wrote:
If you love Jesus, it's a joy and a pleasure. God gives us exactly what we want: If He is our reward for life, we get what we want and so much more. If we want to live life our own way, we get hell and everything that comes with that.
That just doesn't sound right...
Klaw 2
hmmm, what dougblackjr, all sounds very... uhh (how do i say it nice?) religious to me. Again if we change we how do we change, where is it said in the bible?
HalfBloodPrince
dougblackjr wrote:
That's fine....Jesus was genetically predisposed against religion too.

That's why Christianity is about a relationship with Jesus. No one is genetically predisposed to hate relationships.

Well, it was good arguing with you. However, I think I'm finished.


Hmm...so people before Jesus' time are going to Hell?
johanfh
=> Klaw2: [I'm not what in the US is called a creationist, I'm not trying to find proof for a devine creation of the world. Although I indeed believe this world was created. But that's something for an other topic.]
You asked where in the Bible is written about this change. There is not much written about it. I don't know how we change and in what way. But in 1 Corinthians 15 is written that we change.
=> Bikerman: you are right: some people hate relationships. But 'normally' (whatever 'normal' is Wink ) most people seem to like relationships, love being loved, hate being alone all the time. Sociopaths and psychopaths are considered as being '(slightly) unusual'.

I was reading the discussion and noticed that some people used the argument 'religion is a waste of time' to defend atheism. But hey, why would a waste of time be a bad thing? I do believe in God, but not because I have to. I know He lives and loves, so I like to live with Him and to spend my time with Him. So I enjoy my time here with God. And if I happen to be wrong and there is no afterlife then I won't know and I have lived a happy life.

About the original question from Klaw2: you say interesting things about why eternity would be boring after, say 1 billion years. You didn't convince me: I agree it would be boring if it was 1 billion years all the same. But I don't think it would be all the same: that's what I said in my first post about humanity (which you correctly said isn't the same as 'man'): but everything changes (like an old philosopher once said) and just like on earth life doesn't get boring because with every new invention or answer there are a thousand new perspectives and new questions opened. So why would that be any different in heaven? And an everchanging world (but a world without anger, disease, bad luck, etc.) would be nice I think. Even after a billion years.

JohanFH
Klaw 2
johanfh wrote:
=> Klaw2: [I'm not what in the US is called a creationist, I'm not trying to find proof for a devine creation of the world. Although I indeed believe this world was created. But that's something for an other topic.]
You asked where in the Bible is written about this change. There is not much written about it. I don't know how we change and in what way. But in 1 Corinthians 15 is written that we change.
=> Bikerman: you are right: some people hate relationships. But 'normally' (whatever 'normal' is Wink ) most people seem to like relationships, love being loved, hate being alone all the time. Sociopaths and psychopaths are considered as being '(slightly) unusual'.

I was reading the discussion and noticed that some people used the argument 'religion is a waste of time' to defend atheism. But hey, why would a waste of time be a bad thing? I do believe in God, but not because I have to. I know He lives and loves, so I like to live with Him and to spend my time with Him. So I enjoy my time here with God. And if I happen to be wrong and there is no afterlife then I won't know and I have lived a happy life.


It's not really a thing to defend atheism, we got most scientific (if not all) backing us up. But it's more what we think of religious, but of course people can do whatever in their time so that wasn't the point. hbp said this:

HalfBloodPrince wrote:
Klaw 2 wrote:
Yes it's pretty sure everyone will die eventually. However what if you are wrong and that there is no god or heaven or afterlife? You would have spend a large amount of time worshipping a god that doesn't exist.


Well why does it annoy you so much if we're wasting our time?

Think about it from our view. If...

God doesn't exist:
-Believers -> nothing happens
-Non-believers -> nothing happens

God does exist:
-Believers -> Heaven
-Non-believers -> most likely Hell for a variable amount of time.


Who's at greater risk here?


for me god doens't exists cos some dusty 2000 year old books are not going to convince me, I need real proof. Before I convert to a religion. If I were to pray "just in case" it wouldn't do me any good, because if there is a God he would know I would try to get the easy ride to Heaven. wich is in my eyes a waste of time.

johanfh wrote:
About the original question from Klaw2: you say interesting things about why eternity would be boring after, say 1 billion years. You didn't convince me: I agree it would be boring if it was 1 billion years all the same. But I don't think it would be all the same: that's what I said in my first post about humanity (which you correctly said isn't the same as 'man'): but everything changes (like an old philosopher once said) and just like on earth life doesn't get boring because with every new invention or answer there are a thousand new perspectives and new questions opened. So why would that be any different in heaven? And an everchanging world (but a world without anger, disease, bad luck, etc.) would be nice I think. Even after a billion years.

JohanFH


Also other philosophers have said that nothing changes. But with all inventions some will make life more fun. But most inventions are totally useless in heaven like a car. The point is one day there are no inventions left to play with and no things to see, one day I think you will get bored. You could change and have pleasure from being in gods proximity but I don't really buy that. But this is still a fun subject to talk about. (in this case post)
achowles
I have held that view for a long time now. The human mind is a distinctly mortal organ. Perhaps that alone is proof enough of an absence of an immortal soul.

The only way we'd survive eternity would be if we stopped being who we are. We would already have lost our physical selves. That by itself would require psychological adaptation. So to undergo a substantial psychological alteration to ensure that we are mentally equipped to survive eternity would ensure that we simply are not us any more. We would have lost virtually every sense of self. Therefore, what's the point of being guaranteed an eternity like that?

The only alternative would be to become severely bored with existence as you described.

And to those saying "well you've got a choice", why do you desire such a scenario? You can't pretend that desire doesn't play a part in belief. All those I've spoken to about this who believe have some desire for something more. Something beyond this life. So why do you want that to be true?
xtupie
If I am wrong and there is no heaven then at least there was a Being who has looked after me and I have had peace of mind and I just stop existing, I think it takes a million times more faith to believe this but just lets say you right, I would die quite happy thinking there was an after life.

BUT What if you are wrong, the consequences are eternal. I know you do not want to hear this but Jesus Christ spoke more about hell than heaven and if He though it was important we need to wake up and start thinking it important.

There are just too many things pointing to a Super being, whom I call God. The universe is declaring God's glory and our finite minds cannot fathom this. We are trying to argue that there is no God because if there is no God we can live our godless lives without consequences.

But There Is a God and He has a plan for us, we can receive Him or reject Him. No matter how much you want to yawn and think I am stupid thinking this, the truth of the matter is peace. Do you really have peace?

You are living now, where will you be in 100 years from now? I would really think about that? God has given you a choice and only you can make that choice weather it is right or wrong, both have consequences.

I would rather believe in a God who loves me and wants me to live with Him than a god who does not care if I live or die. Our lives are a vapour and soon we will all stand before our creator and have to give an account for our lives, does that not scare you? What will you say to Him? What will be able to answer, remember all you life is laid bare before Him, we cannot lie, and we cannot explain things away, what do you say?

I trust you will at least consider the possibility that you are wrong. I have lived on both sides of the decision, once I was "lost" and did as I pleased and had all these "wonderful" ideas about God, which were all wrong!!!!

Then I came to a point in my life where I accepted Him as my Lord and Saviour and you know what my life is far better than it ever was. I really do not know how I would of couped with things without Him by my side. You see it is not a religion God is calling us to but a relationship with Him, BIG difference.
Klaw 2
xtupie wrote:
If I am wrong and there is no heaven then at least there was a Being who has looked after me and I have had peace of mind and I just stop existing, I think it takes a million times more faith to believe this but just lets say you right, I would die quite happy thinking there was an after life.


I would rather know the truth, where you are like cypher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7BuQFUhsRM , for you: "Ignorance is bliss". For me "I wan't to know the truth".
Of course you are not killing people to get your ignorance... (are you?)

xtupie wrote:
BUT What if you are wrong, the consequences are eternal. I know you do not want to hear this but Jesus Christ spoke more about hell than heaven and if He though it was important we need to wake up and start thinking it important.

Well i have no reason to believe that I am wrong. If i was send to hell i couldn't help it, God placed me in such a position that i WOULD go to hell, so infact he engineers the sircumstances that i would go to hell. Wich is not really fair is it?

xtupie wrote:
There are just too many things pointing to a Super being, whom I call God. The universe is declaring God's glory and our finite minds cannot fathom this. We are trying to argue that there is no God because if there is no God we can live our godless lives without consequences.

Well again you THINK the universe is superb. etc. bla.bla.bla. However i accepted the big-bang/evolution etc.etc. theory. Since there is no evidence for god. And I am not arguing there is no god because I want to live without rules, there are some rules, like the law, my consience is keeping within the lines, and I don't need a god to be moral, where you do need one, god is more for the weak than for the strong.

xtupie wrote:
But There Is a God and He has a plan for us, we can receive Him or reject Him. No matter how much you want to yawn and think I am stupid thinking this, the truth of the matter is peace. Do you really have peace?

Peace with what?
Myself? Yes.
God? I don't need to since he doesn't exist as far as i can tell, if there is a God that cares about us he should treat some humans a bit better.

xtupie wrote:
You are living now, where will you be in 100 years from now? I would really think about that? God has given you a choice and only you can make that choice weather it is right or wrong, both have consequences.

In 100 years I'll be most likely dead and you too our molecules have retaken their place among the earth. However I don't believe in god and if he wants us to believe in him he should send a more credible book to earth.

xtupie wrote:
I would rather believe in a God who loves me and wants me to live with Him than a god who does not care if I live or die. Our lives are a vapour and soon we will all stand before our creator and have to give an account for our lives, does that not scare you? What will you say to Him? What will be able to answer, remember all you life is laid bare before Him, we cannot lie, and we cannot explain things away, what do you say?


Well for me there is not (any kind) of god, so on that first part I don't really have to answer. No it doesn't since I put the bible between the harry potter and lord of the rings books. And if I were to stand in front of him, what will I say?
The really bad things that I did, if I did those. Ask why there is so much hunger etc. in the world, where was he when the tsunami floods happen. etc. And I would say that I didn't believe in him since I am a person who needs hard evidence and for the existance of god I couldn't find any evidence. Also religion has caused much pain, why didn't he stop that and finally wh o why didn't he threw a lightning bolt at Hitler & Stalin?

xtupie wrote:
I trust you will at least consider the possibility that you are wrong. I have lived on both sides of the decision, once I was "lost" and did as I pleased and had all these "wonderful" ideas about God, which were all wrong!!!!


Well what turned you around? I considered it, if someone would give hard evidence I would consider to convert whatever religion the evidence points to. Unless I really disagree with the views of that religion.

xtupie wrote:
Then I came to a point in my life where I accepted Him as my Lord and Saviour and you know what my life is far better than it ever was. I really do not know how I would of couped with things without Him by my side. You see it is not a religion God is calling us to but a relationship with Him, BIG difference.

I can make my own life good without any god, where you did in a way that makes you weak.
With that last sentence what did you mean? I do see every religion as a religion, and the scientific theories are not religions by definition. And I also have my doubt about that relationship part, I value human relationships more than relationships with beings of whom I can conclude they don't exist from the current evidence.

But further discussion for the proof of god I will revert you to an other topic:
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-93157.html#776047
Since this is about eternal living.
Pochettino
Why would it become boring ....

new people die and go to heaven you can meet them, hang around ..... play video games Wink

new technologies on earth will come out, so I guess (yea strange vieuw of myself I know) they will come out in heaven to, so new game consoles, robots .... dno

I just think ofc it'll be boring sometimes but what isn't Smile
Klaw 2
Pochettino wrote:
Why would it become boring ....

new people die and go to heaven you can meet them, hang around ..... play video games Wink

new technologies on earth will come out, so I guess (yea strange vieuw of myself I know) they will come out in heaven to, so new game consoles, robots .... dno

I just think ofc it'll be boring sometimes but what isn't Smile


The point is one day all humans are dead maybe in billions of years but we as a race will eventually die. Most people go to hell anyway, since they don't believe or believe in something else. Eventually you will run out of fancy toys. Talked to everyone and have seen everything. After that you will get bored.
deanhills
For me life is Heaven and Hell. Heaven and Hell is a state of being not a place that you go to. It is part of our lives. I do not believe there is a God separate from us in a separate place that judges us right or wrong. He is us. We are connected through Him. We judge. Think somewhere in the Bible it says that we have been created in His image. I do believe in spirituality and that all of us are spirit and connected through God. I also believe that there is Evil and Evil scares me.

I think love is Heaven and joy. Love is connection between spirits in the purist form. Hate is hell. It destructs and hurts. Would be interesting how our pure scientists can break down love and hate. To me there is spirit attached to it. The state of love sets off a positive and healing chemistry that works harmoniously through the body and creates smiles. The state of hate sets off a negative chemistry that works destructively in the body and creates frowns and worse.

God is Love. God is Omnipotent and when we show reverence and have faith we are in a state of heaven. My better parts are testimony to His existence. The parts where I am less than good shows lack of God and has emptiness in it. By focussing on God, having faith in God I am focussing completely on Good and Love. By focussing away from God, there is lack of God with emptiness and a state of Hell.
satksri
Yes, I tend to agree with Deanhills- Heaven and hell is a state of being- not a place. When we learn to dissociate our happiness with external circumstances, every place becomes a heaven. This means finding an inner source and state of joy. Not just finding it but being able to dwell in it. I have seen some such souls and hence find it easy to believe. Of course, it does demand lot of practice- like any other worth while achievement in life.
HalfBloodPrince
satksri wrote:
Yes, I tend to agree with Deanhills- Heaven and hell is a state of being- not a place.


Strange...The OT, NT, and FT all seem to point towards them being places. If you are already in Heaven or Hell right now, how can you go there when you die? Do you believe that you just come back to life as an unhappy person if you were 'bad' or come back to life as a happy person if you were 'good', or something like that?
Klaw 2
deanhills wrote:
For me life is Heaven and Hell. Heaven and Hell is a state of being not a place that you go to. It is part of our lives. I do not believe there is a God separate from us in a separate place that judges us right or wrong. He is us. We are connected through Him. We judge. Think somewhere in the Bible it says that we have been created in His image. I do believe in spirituality and that all of us are spirit and connected through God. I also believe that there is Evil and Evil scares me.

I think love is Heaven and joy. Love is connection between spirits in the purist form. Hate is hell. It destructs and hurts. Would be interesting how our pure scientists can break down love and hate. To me there is spirit attached to it. The state of love sets off a positive and healing chemistry that works harmoniously through the body and creates smiles. The state of hate sets off a negative chemistry that works destructively in the body and creates frowns and worse.

God is Love. God is Omnipotent and when we show reverence and have faith we are in a state of heaven. My better parts are testimony to His existence. The parts where I am less than good shows lack of God and has emptiness in it. By focussing on God, having faith in God I am focussing completely on Good and Love. By focussing away from God, there is lack of God with emptiness and a state of Hell.


Well what you are saying is interesting, but i meant the heaven and hell where you supposidly go After you die.
davidb123
If I had to live in a wonderful place of indescribable beauty for eternity, WHILE others (whose only crime was not believing) were tortured with indescribable pain for eternity, I WOULD BE IN HELL!

I would not be able to enjoy anything knowing that. And anyone who could, is a selfish pile of greed.
I am agnostic. And if there is a God, I sure hope he is not so cruel.

David
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