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8 teens charged in videotaped attack





icecool
Quote:
LAKELAND, Fla. - Eight teenagers have been arrested on charges alleging they beat another teen in an "animalistic attack" so they could make a videotape to post on YouTube.


what is society coming to?
is this a rare thing these days looking at the news? - i think not.

have we lost all respect for our fellow humans and how we should behave in society?
oohhh yeah
btw
i'm an old fart myself - 55 - and have no kids.
maybe that's why i'm so baffled?

cheers

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/ap_on_re_us/teen_beating
liljp617
Society has been this way forever lol =/ Not that it makes this situation any better, but it's not like all the sudden humans are becoming irrationally violent and killing/attacking others for no particular reason.
ddoonie
all thats changed is the ability to broadcast these actions... its like a baby, if he/she falls and no one is looking, he/she will get up and keep going. BUT if some one is paying attention, they'll start crying like crazy... The fact that someone will watch gives incentive for people to proceed in particular actions..

haha, dont know if that makes sense to you, but sure does in my head.
MaxStirner
icecool wrote:
... what is society coming to?
is this a rare thing these days looking at the news? - i think not.
[H]ave we lost all respect for our fellow humans and how we should behave in society? ...


I am undecided as to how I should classify these events: either as a phenomenon of the times or as something that has always been and is only reported on more frequently (and sensationally). In any case, I believe it does, at least indirectly, address a problem that we have created in the past two to three centuries.

If you would ask the proverbial "man on the street" to define his values (morals, ethics, ...), then the answer, at least in a western, post-industrial society, is predictable and he will have no trouble discerning right and wrong. Ask him why, on what grounds, by what authority he believes this to be so, then he will, very likely, fall back on one of the following:

  • He will argue on religious grounds, claiming the Koran, the Bible, the Talmud, ... or some other authority has laid down the "ground rules" and it is our responsibility to follow these, or ...
  • ...he might argue that upbringing, social conventions, peer pressures, a "social contract", family values or even an authoritarian education is the basis of his values.
  • Perhaps he might even quote constitutions, bills of rights or magna cartas as the basis for his beliefs and values ...
... but the chances are overwhelming that he will not begin arguing meta-ethical definitions of values or transcendental realism; he will be content with pointing to some "higher" authority as the source and definition of his beliefs.

In the last centuries we have begun dismantling these Gods and other authorities (and in my opinion, very rightly so), but have not taken sufficient care in replacing them with viable, understandable concepts of good and evil, right and wrong. We have removed the family as a social entity and have created independent individuals not constrained by traditions, authority or peer pressures, but have failed to outfit these with a tool-box that will guide them in their decision-making. Perhaps all this is just a period of transition? I simply don't know,
Liu
I'm wondering why this is huge news - if you search the web you can find thousands of fight videos between adults and teens.

If they were doing it specifically to get on youtube, then it's not at all surprising where they get these ideas from.
Bikerman
I think you raise an interesting and valid point. As religion continues to decline (and long may it continue) then society as a whole needs other ethical grounding. The ideal, of course, would be to have a population where every person had their own 'ethic' (as opposed to relying on an outside authority to provide one) but we are a fair way distant from that.
I would like to see humanist principles taught and encouraged in society. A grounding in ethical humanism would tick all the boxes - a system of ethics based on rationality (the universal ethic) which leads to judgements of right and wrong which are compatible with modern technological democracies.
The problem, of course, is that this is resisted by the major religions and discouraged by the state. Here in the UK we still have separate faith schools and, indeed, the number is growing. This undermines any possibility of introducing a proper ethical element into the national curriculum.
The argument is often put that secular humanism and atheism are at the root of this problem in society (decreased respect for authority etc). I think this is completely wrong (and I can, if required, back that up with figures). The problem is not with those of us who have rejected religion and sought our own morality, the problem is with those (by far the majority in my opinion) who pay lip service to a religion whilst ignoring the moral and ethical underpinnings that the religion is supposed to be based on. Many people don't think seriously about morality and ethics - they have a vague sense of right and wrong and that is about it. Those of us who have consciously discarded religion often think more deeply about the matter. If you reject God as a moral arbiter then what do you replace it with? That very process of thinking things through normally encourages the development of a personal system of ethics. The question is how do we encourage that process in society as a whole....
l3370591
>Bikerman< I think you raise an interesting and valid point. As religion continues to decline (and long may it continue) then society as a whole needs other ethical grounding. The ideal, of course, would be to have a population where every person had their own 'ethic' (as opposed to relying on an outside authority to provide one) but we are a fair way distant from that.
I would like to see humanist principles taught and encouraged in society. A grounding in ethical humanism would tick all the boxes - a system of ethics based on rationality (the universal ethic) which leads to judgements of right and wrong which are compatible with modern technological democracies.
The problem, of course, is that this is resisted by the major religions and discouraged by the state. Here in the UK we still have separate faith schools and, indeed, the number is growing. This undermines any possibility of introducing a proper ethical element into the national curriculum.
The argument is often put that secular humanism and atheism are at the root of this problem in society (decreased respect for authority etc). I think this is completely wrong (and I can, if required, back that up with figures). The problem is not with those of us who have rejected religion and sought our own morality, the problem is with those (by far the majority in my opinion) who pay lip service to a religion whilst ignoring the moral and ethical underpinnings that the religion is supposed to be based on. Many people don't think seriously about morality and ethics - they have a vague sense of right and wrong and that is about it. Those of us who have consciously discarded religion often think more deeply about the matter. If you reject God as a moral arbiter then what do you replace it with? That very process of thinking things through normally encourages the development of a personal system of ethics. The question is how do we encourage that process in society as a whole....[/quote]

Totally agree with you man!
ocalhoun
^Ah, but if there is no God, and I really do not care about other people, why should I be ethical when I could get away with being unethical?
Sheer humanity and good will? I think that would be inadequate reason for most.
Bikerman
ocalhoun wrote:
^Ah, but if there is no God, and I really do not care about other people, why should I be ethical when I could get away with being unethical?
Sheer humanity and good will? I think that would be inadequate reason for most.

That's why I mentioned the universal ethic - a rational approach rather than a supernatural approach to ethics...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_ethic
ocalhoun
Quote:

1. Acts which are welcomed benefits are good.
2. Acts which coercively harm others are evil.
3. All other acts are neutral.

But if I can get away with it, why not be evil?
Bikerman
ocalhoun wrote:
Quote:

1. Acts which are welcomed benefits are good.
2. Acts which coercively harm others are evil.
3. All other acts are neutral.

But if I can get away with it, why not be evil?

Well, firstly we have a legal system (secular) which prescribes various punishments for 'evil' acts - those being defined largely (but not exclusively) by the universal ethic.
Secondly there is social/peer pressure on people to 'conform'.
Thirdly I don't believe that people are inherently evil.

Apologists for religion would have us believe that the threat of eternal suffering or the prospect of heaven are motivations which humans somehow need in order to behave ethically. I see no evidence to support this contentious view and plenty of evidence that it is wrong. Are atheists more likely to be criminals? No.
http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html
OK - you could say that is because they don't think they will get away with it, but what about all the religious people who know their God will punish them and still commit the crimes?
I don't know of any statistics that show atheists are more selfish or more 'evil' than the religious...
ocalhoun
Bikerman wrote:

Well, firstly we have a legal system (secular) which prescribes various punishments for 'evil' acts - those being defined largely (but not exclusively) by the universal ethic.
Secondly there is social/peer pressure on people to 'conform'.
Thirdly I don't believe that people are inherently evil.

True, there is pressure to conform, but there are many times when this same pressure brings people to commit evil acts. And are people inherently evil? That's a completely separate discussion, but even if they are not, they become evil with alarming frequency.
Quote:

I don't know of any statistics that show atheists are more selfish or more 'evil' than the religious...


That's a good point, but it is probably skewed far off by the vast majority of people who would call themselves religious, but do not change their lives any because of it.
Bikerman
ocalhoun wrote:
That's a good point, but it is probably skewed far off by the vast majority of people who would call themselves religious, but do not change their lives any because of it.

Hmmm..What about those who are intensely religious and DO change their life because of it - Muslim suicide bombers, Christian anti-abortion activists who believe it is right to kill doctors?
If you take a fundamentalist view of any religion you end up being someone I would not want living next door. The truth is that most people are not 'intensely' religious - they don't let religion dictate how they live their life. It's those that are intensely religious that I find worrying. Perhaps this is a good argument for Monasteries and Convents - stick the zealots behind closed doors.
ocalhoun
We've gotten a bit sidetracked, but this is my point:
Suppose Mr. X has gotten me extremely pissed off. I've stewed over it for a week, and come up with a perfect plan to kill him. I couldn't possibly be caught, and it would be nicely framed to look like it was actually Ms. X, who I also despise.
I know it would be an 'evil' act, but it would make me feel better and I don't care.
Why shouldn't I do it?
Bikerman
ocalhoun wrote:
We've gotten a bit sidetracked, but this is my point:
Suppose Mr. X has gotten me extremely pissed off. I've stewed over it for a week, and come up with a perfect plan to kill him. I couldn't possibly be caught, and it would be nicely framed to look like it was actually Ms. X, who I also despise.
I know it would be an 'evil' act, but it would make me feel better and I don't care.
Why shouldn't I do it?

It would depend on your personal morality/ethics. I would not do it because I believe it is wrong - based on the humanist ethical approach. My point is that you don't need religion to tell you that it is wrong and those who base their ethics on religion are no less likely to commit the killing that those, like me, who find other sources for their own ethics. My ethics are based on rationality and don't require a 'sky fairy' to tell me what is right and wrong. Personally I believe that is a 'better' way to go because I cannot be influenced by evil people who might subvert my religious views for their own ends (as has happened with most religions at some point).
The root of my own ethics can be summed up in a single phrase - what is right for me is right for others. It is known as the universal principle and is also a message which appears in many religions (do unto others as you would be done by...etc).
You don't, however, need any supernatural entity to tell you that this is generally a good idea - rationality is enough.
ocalhoun
^We are hijacking this thread...
I'm making a new thread in philosophy and religion as a spin-off of this one.
link to new thread
ankitdatashn
All I can say is internet is being highly misused these days and moreover the misuse is on the rise, we must spread awareness among others. I also try to educate others, recently there was much hacking attacks on orkut so I designed an educative phishing site to tell others how to be aware.

All people should spread awareness like this...
Kelvin
Yes I remember seeing the video shown on our local news. It was quite brutal especially for girls to do such thing. I wonder why there would be any need to even do that in the first place. Really sad how the society of today is changing into. First there was a local incident of female assult and now another one overseas. But this one is far more brutal than the one I saw last year. Sad.... and I pity that poor girl. Crying or Very sad
liljp617
Kelvin wrote:
Yes I remember seeing the video shown on our local news. It was quite brutal especially for girls to do such thing. I wonder why there would be any need to even do that in the first place. Really sad how the society of today is changing into. First there was a local incident of female assult and now another one overseas. But this one is far more brutal than the one I saw last year. Sad.... and I pity that poor girl. Crying or Very sad

Again, man has been like this since the beginning of recorded history. Irrational violence and attacking/killing others for stupid reasons or no reason at all is nothing new. The only reason it seems more apparent to us is because that's the only thing ever talked about on almost every form of media. Nothing is happening to our society; people have committed these acts forever in pretty identical amounts that we see today.
icecool
liljp617 wrote:
Kelvin wrote:
Yes I remember seeing the video shown on our local news. It was quite brutal especially for girls to do such thing. I wonder why there would be any need to even do that in the first place. Really sad how the society of today is changing into. First there was a local incident of female assult and now another one overseas. But this one is far more brutal than the one I saw last year. Sad.... and I pity that poor girl. Crying or Very sad

Again, man has been like this since the beginning of recorded history. Irrational violence and attacking/killing others for stupid reasons or no reason at all is nothing new. The only reason it seems more apparent to us is because that's the only thing ever talked about on almost every form of media. Nothing is happening to our society; people have committed these acts forever in pretty identical amounts that we see today.


that may well be true - but does it make it right?
is it ok for us to say - well, that was always like that so we just have to accept it?
i agree that as far as the media is concerned bad news sells better than good news.
have we all turned into a species of sadistic voieurs?

cheers?
maybe not
achowles
@ ocalhoun

If the only thing keeping you in line is the belief in a higher being, then you've got some serious issues. Generally speaking, that's called Dissocial Personality Disorder. I doubt that's the case, so perhaps you want to rethink that opinion.

In response to the OP: generally, the only thing new about this is how publicised it is now. Especially if it winds up on youtube. It's only a shame that there are so many safety measures in society now that such people aren't 'naturally selected' before they become a threat to themselves and everyone else in their vicinity.
liljp617
icecool wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
Kelvin wrote:
Yes I remember seeing the video shown on our local news. It was quite brutal especially for girls to do such thing. I wonder why there would be any need to even do that in the first place. Really sad how the society of today is changing into. First there was a local incident of female assult and now another one overseas. But this one is far more brutal than the one I saw last year. Sad.... and I pity that poor girl. Crying or Very sad

Again, man has been like this since the beginning of recorded history. Irrational violence and attacking/killing others for stupid reasons or no reason at all is nothing new. The only reason it seems more apparent to us is because that's the only thing ever talked about on almost every form of media. Nothing is happening to our society; people have committed these acts forever in pretty identical amounts that we see today.


that may well be true - but does it make it right?
is it ok for us to say - well, that was always like that so we just have to accept it?
i agree that as far as the media is concerned bad news sells better than good news.
have we all turned into a species of sadistic voieurs?

cheers?
maybe not

I never said it was okay. I actually said in my first post on the subject that the fact it has happened forever doesn't make the situation any better. No, it's not okay to accept this for what it is...mindless, brute violence by teenagers with no understanding of the repercussions nor guilt for what they did. But getting all hyped up about it as if it's never happened and pretending it is some incredibly new thing that must be stopped immediately is silly. It's like getting stirred up past the normal limit over murder. These things occur and they will continue to occur regardless of what you do. You cannot stop these types of acts and to think mindless violence will one day cease to exist is being naive and foolish.
icecool
liljp617 wrote:
icecool wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
Kelvin wrote:
Yes I remember seeing the video shown on our local news. It was quite brutal especially for girls to do such thing. I wonder why there would be any need to even do that in the first place. Really sad how the society of today is changing into. First there was a local incident of female assult and now another one overseas. But this one is far more brutal than the one I saw last year. Sad.... and I pity that poor girl. Crying or Very sad

Again, man has been like this since the beginning of recorded history. Irrational violence and attacking/killing others for stupid reasons or no reason at all is nothing new. The only reason it seems more apparent to us is because that's the only thing ever talked about on almost every form of media. Nothing is happening to our society; people have committed these acts forever in pretty identical amounts that we see today.


that may well be true - but does it make it right?
is it ok for us to say - well, that was always like that so we just have to accept it?
i agree that as far as the media is concerned bad news sells better than good news.
have we all turned into a species of sadistic voieurs?

cheers?
maybe not

I never said it was okay. I actually said in my first post on the subject that the fact it has happened forever doesn't make the situation any better. No, it's not okay to accept this for what it is...mindless, brute violence by teenagers with no understanding of the repercussions nor guilt for what they did. But getting all hyped up about it as if it's never happened and pretending it is some incredibly new thing that must be stopped immediately is silly. It's like getting stirred up past the normal limit over murder. These things occur and they will continue to occur regardless of what you do. You cannot stop these types of acts and to think mindless violence will one day cease to exist is being naive and foolish.


rather a pragmatic view in my opinion.
just as i said - it's been always like that so we just accept it???
what is "normal limit" to get stirred up over murder?
same as a cat getting run over?
don't you find it outrageous that one human being can do that kind of harm to another?
you obviously have thought about this and realise the damage it can do.
but just to sit on your bum, shrug your shoulders and say, well, nothing new, so what.

i realise this sort of behaviour seems to be inherent in homo sapiens - the only animal that HARMS just for FUN it's own kind, others and its surroundings - unthinking and wanton.
maybe this has something to do with conciusness?

but then again. yes, i rather appear naive and folish than just sit and shrug my shoulders.

cheers
liljp617
You seem to think I encourage violence, murder, etc. or am perfectly fine with it occurring. I don't and I am not. It actually angers and sickens me to see videos of this nature. I completely discourage violence as a means to solve problems. But I'm not going to waste massive amounts of energy on something nobody can control. Nor will I say silly things like "what is our society coming to?". I have no respect for people who act with mindless violence to solve problems, but again, I'm not going to be naive about the circumstances. Acting like our society has suddenly become corrupted in the last 10 years is an overreaction and ignorant view. My entire point was nothing more than to say this is nothing new and to get excited about it being something new is ignorant. Does that mean I want it to continue occurring? No. You can make assumptions about my views on violence from that, but so far you've been pretty much completely wrong.
ocalhoun
achowles wrote:
@ ocalhoun

If the only thing keeping you in line is the belief in a higher being, then you've got some serious issues. Generally speaking, that's called Dissocial Personality Disorder. I doubt that's the case, so perhaps you want to rethink that opinion.

Eh, that's probably right. If I wanted to, I could diagnose myself with at least five 'disorders'. Why would I want to though? So some psychologist could conform me to the world's idea of sanity? It would probably drive me to suicide.
Soulfire
Yeah, attacks have always occurred ... it's just now we can film them. Why not relive the "pleasure" over and over?

Disgusting.
whitehole
I like to smile politely and say hi to old people when I pass them on my daily walks. It makes them smile and makes me feel good. It's the little things I think and it's something in my control. Don't take the rest of the world so seriously because violence has been a part of human nature from the start.
Feroc1ty
At least here in America these issues are being taken seriously, this has been going on in Japan for a while now, and no one is doing anything about it, unless they can defend themselves unexpectedly on the streets.
Kelvin
We cannot really compare the violence of the past to the current day as technology has definately played it's part in increasing violence in every aspect. Now that video recordings are made so affordable and accessible, it encourages the mentally sick to record their crimes for self gratification and say "hey i've got a 'brilliant' idea... why don't we do something really 'uncool' and get it on video so we can watch the fun or maybe upload it to youtube or distribute it around. we might even get famous doing crap like that" .... then the other brainless scums of the earth says "hey... that's absolutely brilliant, lets find a victim now"

Just think of it, things many were anable to do in the past because of the lack of the widespread of technology is now possible to everyone at an affordable price. Not to say that they had not conceived it in d pass but now they can carry out their 'sick thoughts' with ease. Killing with firearms, taking nude pictures/videos of unsuspecting victims, capturing acts of crime being committed by themselves on video, online frauds, mobile sms frauds, etc..... whatever you can think of, it is now possible with technology, and the sad part is, there is always an unsuspecting victim or a gullible person who becomes the casualty.
thuyhanh
Society has been this way forever lol =/ Not that it makes this situation any better, but it's not like all the sudden humans are becoming irrationally violent and killing/attacking others for no particular reason.
liljp617
thuyhanh wrote:
Society has been this way forever lol =/ Not that it makes this situation any better, but it's not like all the sudden humans are becoming irrationally violent and killing/attacking others for no particular reason.

Ok? Any reason you wrote exactly what I wrote lmao?
deanhills
icecool wrote:
Quote:
LAKELAND, Fla. - Eight teenagers have been arrested on charges alleging they beat another teen in an "animalistic attack" so they could make a videotape to post on YouTube.


what is society coming to?
is this a rare thing these days looking at the news? - i think not.

have we lost all respect for our fellow humans and how we should behave in society?
oohhh yeah
btw
i'm an old fart myself - 55 - and have no kids.
maybe that's why i'm so baffled?

cheers

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/ap_on_re_us/teen_beating


Wonder whether some people in the US will now think of legislation to ban YouTube? Like they want to do with getting rid of guns. This must be a very good illustration that something needs to be looked at much deeper than guns or other tools of violence. Think Icecool has a very good point about lack of respect for fellow humans. I think lots of it is prevalent in South Africa too. Human life does not mean that much and someone can be killed for as little as a wrist watch.

I do not think this kind of violence is in all societies. I wonder if the US realizes how much violence there really is in its country in comparison with the rest of the world?
Melsens
all thats changed is the ability to broadcast these actions... its like a baby, if he/she falls and no one is looking, he/she will get up and keep going. BUT if some one is paying attention, they'll start crying like crazy... The fact that someone will watch gives incentive for people to proceed in particular actions..
icecool
Melsens wrote:
all thats changed is the ability to broadcast these actions... its like a baby, if he/she falls and no one is looking, he/she will get up and keep going. BUT if some one is paying attention, they'll start crying like crazy... The fact that someone will watch gives incentive for people to proceed in particular actions..


but why do babies start crying? to get attention, be cuddled, consoled, feel loved - all important to a baby and to all of us for sure. difference between a baby and grown ups is that babies have this as a basic means of communication to get their fill of all the good things in life to compensate for the hurt.

grown ups should at that age have found more mature ways of getting attention to whatever they need attended to - not beat the crap out of somebody else and then broadcast their "need" in a hidden message on youtube or anywhere else.
in my mind it's just another way of showing how sick, self centered and uncaring todays society has become.
and looking at some of the posts here which don't really address a very apparent problem but just trying to find either an excuse or a simple explanation - i think that's another syptom of the same.

cheers
BugBear
Haha personally I think it's funny. Not that someone got beaten but the extent of their stupidity..... I guess it probably started out as a joke and then slowly gained momentum as each kid wanted to look cool for a bit.

It's not really about society "nowadays" because people in groups tend to always do stupid stuff even if originally they wouldn't have done whatever that was.
liljp617
BugBear wrote:
Haha personally I think it's funny. Not that someone got beaten but the extent of their stupidity..... I guess it probably started out as a joke and then slowly gained momentum as each kid wanted to look cool for a bit.

It's not really about society "nowadays" because people in groups tend to always do stupid stuff even if originally they wouldn't have done whatever that was.

There's really not a glimmer of humor in the situation to be honest.
angella
Those kids seriously need to get punished and be straightened out. Conscience seems to be limited to these teens. Send them to a boot camp [ http://www.militaryschools411.com/articles/teen-military-schools-military-camp-for-teens-kids/ ] and make them work really hard. They should be disciplined as what their parents seem to have forgotten to enforce. They had no right to that to another human being and it's just saddening on how our teens are turning out.
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