FRIHOSTFORUMSSEARCHFAQTOSBLOGSCOMPETITIONS
You are invited to Log in or Register a free Frihost Account!


The nuttiest idea I ever heard





paul_indo
Quote:
Bird flu as weapon nutty idea: Gates

Desy Nurhayati, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta 26-02-08

United States Defense Secretary Robert Gates has denied allegations by Indonesia's Health Minister Siti Fadilah Supari that his country is developing biological weapons from bird flu strains found in Indonesia.

"I think it's the nuttiest idea I've ever heard," Gates said Monday after addressing his speech to the Indonesian Council on World Affairs at the Four Seasons Hotel, South Jakarta.

Siti's book, It's Time for the World to Change, Divine Hands Behind Bird Flu, alleges the U.S. and the World Health Organization are conspiring against developing countries by seizing control of bird flu samples.


http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20080226.A04&irec=3

Must be his first trip to Indonesia.
Laughing Laughing Laughing
crdowner
Let's hope that it really is a nutty idea. Releasing strains of a virus that is already out of control in much of the world would be pretty dumb. Something like that could come back to bite all of us since there is no medication for viruses and since most viruses mutate. Look at the regular flu. People have been hit pretty hard this year because the flu shot did not contain a vaccine for some of this year's strains.
Kelvin
Any form of biological weapon pursued by human in the hope of world domination or weapons deployment is just a clear indication of how inhumane we can actually be. It's also a show of cowardness as they are not man enough to face the enemy face to face. But then again, military might is always to inflict the most damage while sustaining the least casualties. Either way... we shouldn't play with what we are not capable of handling.
MaxStirner
paul_indo wrote:
Quote:
Bird flu as weapon nutty idea: Gates

Desy Nurhayati, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta 26-02-08

United States Defense Secretary Robert Gates has denied allegations by Indonesia's Health Minister Siti Fadilah Supari that his country is developing biological weapons from bird flu strains found in Indonesia.

"I think it's the nuttiest idea I've ever heard," Gates said Monday after addressing his speech to the Indonesian Council on World Affairs at the Four Seasons Hotel, South Jakarta.

Siti's book, It's Time for the World to Change, Divine Hands Behind Bird Flu, alleges the U.S. and the World Health Organization are conspiring against developing countries by seizing control of bird flu samples.


http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20080226.A04&irec=3

Must be his first trip to Indonesia.
Laughing Laughing Laughing


Secretary Gates' statement is difficult to believe. Even assuming that a nation has no interest n developing a biological weapon (and that in itself is rather hard to swallow), prudence would demand finding an elexipharmic (or is it antidote?) to counteract any attempts by others to use such a weapon ... and the research needed to counteract vs. distribute a biological agent is, in my opinion, at least closely related if not complementary.
Bikerman
When a politician makes a denial, the thing to do it ask yourself if it is political possible for him/her to do otherwise (ie would they survive in office if they confirmed the allegation?). If the answer is no then disregard the politicians words. (That does not mean that they are necessarily lying, but it's a strong possibility so their actual statement has no meaning since it cannot be trusted).
Aredon
Bikerman wrote:
When a politician makes a denial, the thing to do it ask yourself if it is political possible for him/her to do otherwise (ie would they survive in office if they confirmed the allegation?). If the answer is no then disregard the politicians words. (That does not mean that they are necessarily lying, but it's a strong possibility so their actual statement has no meaning since it cannot be trusted).


This is truth. ^^^

I would hope that it isn't a lie. As was already mentioned, any virus on the loose is not going to be fun to deal with.
icecool
i have to agree with max - any research into an antidote automatically involves research into any possible variants.

i also seem to remember over the years some pretty strange reports with regards to viruses nobody ever heard of suddenly turning up in out of the way places, massive budgets buried in some obscure research or defence legalese, individuals or action groups who ask the wrong questions never turning up in the media again - and that's just the usa alone.

in my opinion there is so much going on we as "ordinary" people, who just want to lead a happy and peaceful and fulfilling life are either not aware of or even don't really want to know about that if this mad global power game would be totally transparent would get off our complacent bums and actually DO something about it - maybe ending up getting some taste of what's been hidden from the unsuspecting public for so long.

boys and their toys - when big bucks, ego and power are involved, reason goes out the window.

cheers????
i think not
Cddhesh
Finally Gates is a Politician,a clever politician .We all know what he has done so far.He himself or any other leader will definetly speak like this.To blame someone with a reason with hidden ideas behind it has been task of all USA ministers.Hope it is not true in reality.
Moonspider
We all have our pet peeves, and this happens to be one of mine.

The United States does not possess an offensive biological weapons program and has not since President Nixon issued National Decisions 35 and 44 in 1969 and 1970 respectively. Furthermore, all U.S. inventories of such weapons were destroyed between 1971 and 1973. (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/cbw/bw.htm, http://cns.miis.edu/research/cbw/possess.htm)

Fort Detrick in Maryland served as the primary research facility in the offensive program. Today, the facility conducts research into biological defense and is known as USAMRIID (United States Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases), founded in 1969 after Nixon’s executive order ending all offensive research and development. All research conducted at USAMRIID is open and unclassified. (http://www.usamriid.army.mil/)

icecool wrote:
i have to agree with max - any research into an antidote automatically involves research into any possible variants.


That may be true to some extent, however the most important aspect of biological warfare is not researched at USAMRIID. That aspect is dissemination of a pathogen. A biological weapon, whether a disease or a bio-toxin, is only as good as its delivery system. As an example, USAMRIID conducts research on Ebola. However they are forbidden to conduct any research into how it may spread through the air since such knowledge could help develop a delivery system. (I wish I could provide a reference for this but it was something I was taught in CBR-D a.k.a. Chemical, Biological, and Radiological Defense School. It has been a number of years so, take it for what its worth.) To my knowledge there has been no indication that Ebola Zaire is airborne, however Ebola Reston (harmless to humans but deadly to chimps), is known to spread by air due to the events at Reston, Virginia. As another example, questions that would need to be answered for a pathogen that forms spores would include things like the optimum size of spores to create the most efficient aerosol. Gaining such knowledge, I was told, is forbidden. (Although it was answered decades ago for some diseases, such as anthrax.) That’s the difference between a pathogen and a weaponized pathogen.

For me the best argument against some sort of secret BW program in the United States is simply that it is illogical. Biological weapons are grossly inefficient and unpredictable. They are very useful to states unable to compete with their primary enemies militarily with conventional weapons, or for terrorist organizations. Bio-weapons can inflict great harm and are relatively cheap to manufacture. (Any pharmaceutical plant will do.) For weaker nations they can therefore be an asset and their benefit as a terror weapon is obvious.

However, for a power like the United States to possess them is illogical. Nuclear and thermo-nuclear weapons suffice for a WMD if needed. They’re predictable and highly reliable. WMDs are used to inflict heavy casualties in military engagements, particularly when the nation employing them is unable to bring enough conventional forces to bear against the enemy on a given battlefield. For the United States, a tactical nuke makes more sense than a chemical or biological agent in such a situation.

Biological weapons historically have been used against civilian populations as well. Once again, it is illogical for a wealthy power like the United States to possess a bio-weapon arsenal since it can afford the far more expensive (but far more effective) nuclear capability.

The United States military also employs the most accurate weapon systems in the world, which are continually improving in range, reliability, and accuracy. Over the next 10 – 50 years one may expect naval ships to carry rail guns with 250NM ranges and highly accurate rounds (and no explosives since the kinetic energy upon impact will be enough to destroy a target), as well as hypersonic cruise missiles launched from surface vessels, submarines, or aircraft (once again, no warhead needed). These weapons and their like greatly diminish the need to use WMDs to wipe out areas, or large numbers of people since their accuracy helps insure the destruction of specific targets, be they infrastructure, military assets, or humans.

Finally, as policy the United States reserves the right to respond with a nuclear strike in retaliation for a biological (or chemical) attack since nuclear and thermonuclear weapons are the only WMDs in our arsenal. (This is part of the “calculated ambiguity” policy which dates to the Clinton Administration.)

As for the Bird Flu being caused by military research, that is illogical since a disease like the flu has no practical military value. It's incubation period is too long and can therefore possibly threaten friendly forces or populations. AIDS (which I've heard similar conspiracy theories about) is also illogical for the very same reason except even more so. It has an extremely long incubation period and additionally is a blood-born pathogen and therefore cannot be spread by aerosol. Although blood-born pathogen's can be weaponized, HIV is not a very robust virus, since exposure to air alone is enough to kill it.

I don't think you'll ever see any form of the flu listed on a page of diseases considered or used in the past as a BW.

I good natural disease to weaponize, if one wanted to do so, would be Ebola Zaire. It is highly contagious and has a very short incubation period followed by a very quick and high fatality rate. Thus it burns itself out before it can threaten any friendly forces or populations, allowing units to move into a contaminated area within days or weeks with little fear of exposure (as long as the bodies and contaminated blood is dealt with accordingly since the disease is still hot in corpses.)

But like I said, any research that could lead to weaponization or such knowledge is forbidden at USAMRIID.

Respectfully,
M

Note: Edited to make another logic argument regarding diseases like the flu and AIDS being caused by U.S. bio-weapons research.
paul_indo
How would Indonesia's Health Minister be in a position to know this even if it was true?

I think it is just another crazy accusation made by a country which likes to feel more important in the world than it actually is.
Bikerman
I tend to think that Moonspider's argument on this matter is convincing. I have no doubt that the US has various strains of many deadly pathogens in labs for study - just as we in the UK have, in places such as Portland Down labs. There is also little doubt that the US and the UK have previously been involved in attempts to weaponise biological agents and pathogens. The notion that this would still be going on, however, in either country seems illogical. Both the US and UK have nuclear weapons and it would seem much more likely (ie very unlikely indeed but remotely possible) that such weapons would be used before any biological weapons - they are more effective, less chance of 'blowback', and possibly even more politically acceptible (that is debatable..). For that reason alone I don't believe that either the US or the UK is currently doing research into, or producing, biological weapons based on pathogens.
Biological weapons are, as Moonspider suggests, more suited to the weaker state or group.
MaxStirner
I certainly have not the slightest proof that the US or other western nations are working on a biological weapon, I wouldn't even venture a heavy bet on it, but I also would not necessarily dismiss it as quickly as suggested.

(1) The fact that biological weapons conceivable today are not as "efficient" as other WMD, does not preclude finding one that is.
(2) Biological weapons have the potential "benefit" of not necessarily causing casualties, any number of medical complaints could severely hamper an enemy army or a not so docile population. This would also make the use of such a weapon much more acceptable compared to a nuclear of even chemical option.
(3) Biological weapons might not be on the front burner but I have my doubts if basic research (as the military would define this term) in this area is completely put aside simply because there is no useful weapon in sight (and would we really know if there was one?).
LumberJack
paul_indo wrote:
Quote:
Bird flu as weapon nutty idea: Gates

Desy Nurhayati, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta 26-02-08

United States Defense Secretary Robert Gates has denied allegations by Indonesia's Health Minister Siti Fadilah Supari that his country is developing biological weapons from bird flu strains found in Indonesia.

"I think it's the nuttiest idea I've ever heard," Gates said Monday after addressing his speech to the Indonesian Council on World Affairs at the Four Seasons Hotel, South Jakarta.

Siti's book, It's Time for the World to Change, Divine Hands Behind Bird Flu, alleges the U.S. and the World Health Organization are conspiring against developing countries by seizing control of bird flu samples.


http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20080226.A04&irec=3

Must be his first trip to Indonesia.
Laughing Laughing Laughing


I could not imagine someone trying to use influenza as a biological weapon, it could not be controlled, and if you could, the sheer nature of the virus is that it changes so quickly. It is basically natures way of ensuring population control. The flu is common to all species, and once conditions are right, it will take out any excess. Good luck with that, I don't think the defense department would be that stupid...
ocalhoun
We probably are doing research on bird flu as a biological weapon. The reason the US does continue such research is so that we can develop defenses against it. We have promised not to use any biological weapons, but we still need to be prepared in case they are used.

Suppose we need to test to see if our gas masks and chemical gear would protect against a weaponized bird flu. Or perhaps we need to make some way to detect if such a thing is used. In order to do tests and development like that, you need to have the weapon to test with.
LumberJack
The weapon isn't the fuel itself, it is the delivery system...
Related topics
A soldier's rant
How to become a millionaire on the internet?
Does anybody heard the Polish band - D¿em (Jam) ??
Gizmondo, anyone ever heard of it?
Have You Ever Heard About Vedic Mathematics?
Ever heard of this song: Super Good - Depp Hearts
Anybody ever heard of Bright Eyes
Ever Heard Wordplay by Jason MrAZ
Snowdogs - ever heard of them?
ever heard about the coce-cola and mentos experiment?
Has anyone ever heard of Park West Gallery?
sexiest song you've ever heard?
Ever heard of controlling air conditioners with cell phones?
Biorythm ? have you ever heard about that?
Reply to topic    Frihost Forum Index -> Lifestyle and News -> Discuss World News

FRIHOST HOME | FAQ | TOS | ABOUT US | CONTACT US | SITE MAP
© 2005-2011 Frihost, forums powered by phpBB.