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Kosovo Independance






Do you recognize Kosovo's Independance?
Yes
82%
 82%  [ 14 ]
No
17%
 17%  [ 3 ]
What are you talking about?
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 17

LumberJack
The reactions to Kosovo declaring independence have been quite interesting over the past few weeks. US and Europe recognizing it, China, Russia, Venezuela, denouncing. It seems the decision is highly critical and seems to be a bit of a throw back to the old cold war relationships. They have been under the UN and NATO since I was a kid, since the war and genocides.

What do you think? Should they be recognized?
ThePolemistis
LumberJack wrote:
The reactions to Kosovo declaring independence have been quite interesting over the past few weeks. US and Europe recognizing it, China, Russia, Venezuela, denouncing. It seems the decision is highly critical and seems to be a bit of a throw back to the old cold war relationships. They have been under the UN and NATO since I was a kid, since the war and genocides.

What do you think? Should they be recognized?


I don't see why not. If the Kosovans want it, it is their right to have it.
liljp617
I'm kind of on the fence. I think it's good the people there want to fight for their freedoms and all, and they have been treated badly by Serbia. However, I think they went about it the wrong way. They agreed to Serbia's Constitution. There is a principle called "indivisibility of national territory". I think it's in England's Constitution too. Since Serbia's Constitution has this principle written in it, the act of declaring independence by Kosovo is indeed unilateral and illegal.

"Constitution of Serbia
Article 4
The territory of the Republic of Serbia is a single whole, no part of which may be alienated.
Any change in the boundaries of the Republic of Sebia shall be decided upon by the citizens in a referendum."

Not only that, Kosovo is the cultural, spiritual, and historical heartland of the Serbs. I think the Serbs have a right to be upset. If Kosovo wants it's independence, it needs to go about it legally and peacefully. Can't just up and move out whenever you please.
Klaw 2
liljp617 wrote:
I'm kind of on the fence. I think it's good the people there want to fight for their freedoms and all, and they have been treated badly by Serbia. However, I think they went about it the wrong way. They agreed to Serbia's Constitution. There is a principle called "indivisibility of national territory". I think it's in England's Constitution too. Since Serbia's Constitution has this principle written in it, the act of declaring independence by Kosovo is indeed unilateral and illegal.

"Constitution of Serbia
Article 4
The territory of the Republic of Serbia is a single whole, no part of which may be alienated.
Any change in the boundaries of the Republic of Sebia shall be decided upon by the citizens in a referendum."

Not only that, Kosovo is the cultural, spiritual, and historical heartland of the Serbs. I think the Serbs have a right to be upset. If Kosovo wants it's independence, it needs to go about it legally and peacefully. Can't just up and move out whenever you please.


They HAD an referendum.
And it's going peacefully apart from what the Serbs themselfes are doing.

In my opinion this is good for these people.
coolclay
I think there are to many hard feelings between Kosovo, Serbia and many other countries. I don't believe peace will long either way.
liljp617
coolclay wrote:
I think there are to many hard feelings between Kosovo, Serbia and many other countries. I don't believe peace will long either way.

Can you blame them?
MaxStirner
liljp617 wrote:
Can you blame them?

Given not only recent history, I certainly can't blame them but this unilateral declaration of independence is very problematic (at best). If forced for a Yes / No answer (such as in this poll), I would have to choose the latter. I would have hoped that any attempts in solving this problem were a bit more within international / UN laws. Many secessionist groups all around the world will be heartened by this development, not only in nations with colonial pasts, and could lead to any number of new but nonviable nations (of which Kosovo is very probably one) or, equally likely, to more civil wars and insurgencies.
supjapscrapper
I believe in a fundamental human right, the right of human beings to define the destiny they owuld like their people to have. If Kosovar people want to be independent, No country, no army, no oppression like the one exerced by the serbs against them and the apartheid, no menace like what this jerk poutine is doing (he'd better take care of getting richer by taking 80% of all money from oil sells) and no UN resolution will change that. History has shoown that people eventually always win wars which have to do with their fundamental right to freedom. Kosovar people are definitely ready for this I guess, from what I see from them. Kosovo is for Albanians and it's their right!
MaxStirner
supjapscrapper wrote:
I believe in a fundamental human right, the right of human beings to define the destiny they owuld like their people to have. If Kosovar people want to be independent, No country, no army, no oppression like the one exerced by the serbs against them ... and no UN resolution will change that. ...

Even if we assume that what you say is true and that the Kosovo has earned it's right to independence, in my opinion we need to address this issue where it belongs: in the UN. If you support ad hoc independence of all ethnic (or other) groups, then you are inviting chaos which will serve no one at all, least of all these small, emerging countries. Even the more robust, democratic countries such as Spain, France, United Kingdom, Belgium, Italy, ... will be severely affected, not to speak of the many 2nd and 3rd world nations of which a good percentage would collapse into failed states.
supjapscrapper wrote:
... Kosovar people are definitely ready for this I guess ...

Although this is still an ongoing discussion, there are very serious doubts if the Kosovo, given its industry, raw materials, standard of living, ... can even become a viable nation, without having to depend on the EU for the forseeable future.
HadrianWall
MaxStirner wrote:

Even if we assume that what you say is true and that the Kosovo has earned it's right to independence, in my opinion we need to address this issue where it belongs: in the UN.

I fail to see what the UN has to do with it. Oh, it can come along and provide some official recognition and facilitate the official acknowledgment process, but surely the issue of territorial separation should be settled among those concerned. In bilateral agreement.

Which is why this particular recognition is a tragic development. There was no agreement, simply enforcement by fiat. That fact alone should disqualify Kosovo from consideration to begin with.
Quote:

If you support ad hoc independence of all ethnic (or other) groups, then you are inviting chaos which will serve no one at all, least of all these small, emerging countries. Even the more robust, democratic countries such as Spain, France, United Kingdom, Belgium, Italy, ... will be severely affected, not to speak of the many 2nd and 3rd world nations of which a good percentage would collapse into failed states.


Indeed. We've already seen unrest in Abchasia, the separatist territory of Georgia that enjoys Russia's backing. The Russians claim - and it's hard to fault their reasoning - that if Kosovo can break away because they feel like it, so can anybody else. Giving separatists globally that card to play was the height of folly.

supjapscrapper wrote:
... Kosovar people are definitely ready for this I guess ...

Although this is still an ongoing discussion, there are very serious doubts if the Kosovo, given its industry, raw materials, standard of living, ... can even become a viable nation, without having to depend on the EU for the forseeable future.[/quote]

Is there anything to discuss. Kosovo does not control it's borders or territory. The UN mission does. It does not produce anything. It's official budget is dependent - to a staggering 95% - on handouts, primarily from the European Union and the United States. It suffers badly from unresolved minorities issues and a staggering criminality. If Kosovo is ready to be a state, it's hard to imagine an entity that could fail to reach the requirements.
LumberJack
liljp617 wrote:
There is a principle called "indivisibility of national territory". I think it's in England's Constitution too. Since Serbia's Constitution has this principle written in it, the act of declaring independence by Kosovo is indeed unilateral and illegal.


Would you rather them start shooting Serbians to try and get their point across that they don't care about "indivisibility of national territory"? Referendums are interesting, democracies change over time, the referendum would be a declaration that they don't care about that part of the constitution, and if they don't have the governing autonomy to change it, then what? I think is where countries should tread carefully....
HadrianWall
LumberJack wrote:

Would you rather them start shooting Serbians to try and get their point across that they don't care about "indivisibility of national territory"?

They did that. The policy of legitimization rewards ethnic cleansing, in an amazing turnaround from the international community's stance on these issues in Bosnia. Lest we forget, the reason the UN mission is in Kosovo isn't to protect the Albanians - it is to protect all the minorities; Serbs, Macedonians, Bulgarians, Gypsies - that the Albanians have been persecuting. Some of us think rewarding that sort of behavior is bad policy.
Quote:

Referendums are interesting, democracies change over time, the referendum would be a declaration that they don't care about that part of the constitution, and if they don't have the governing autonomy to change it, then what? I think is where countries should tread carefully....

If referendum are allowed once one part of a conflict has killed or driven away the other part, don't you think it's moot to call for the results to be binding? Well, I guess that if the Qubecois were to kill or run out all English-speakers and then passed a motion to secede from Canada, that'd be a-ok with you too?
Lord Klorel
I recognize the republic Kosovo. Why should they not be recognized because of there past? Don't let me laugh, every nation has the right to exist and therefore i give my blessing about Kosovo.

Everyone that not recognize Kosovo should not exist in my eyes. If someone can give hard evidence that Kosovo not should republic on his own, must speak now or should remain silent for ever.

I hope that many people agree with my statement.
TomGrey
Yes to independence, after the Kosovars voted for it.

The Slovaks and Czechs split peacefully, the USSR dissolved fairly peacefully -- although minority rights are an issue.

In America, there is no "national" ethnic identity, essentially a super-tribe like Germans, or Albanian or Serbian. An Albanian in Serbia remains "Albanian", while a Serb in Albania, or now in Kosovo, remains a Serb. And I, in Slovakia, can never become a Slovak, although I could become a citizen of Slovakia.

Any size country with a city is big enough to be a city-state, legal country -- the real political question is whether other states will recognize the state, and whether this recognition will save them from being attacked militarily.

While I support such independence, it is true that there are Serb-majority counties in Kosovo that want to remain part of Serbia -- this should also be allowed.

Similarly, there are Serb majority areas in Bosnia that might want to be part of Serbia. It's less clear that this should be allowed. There are Hungarian parts of Slovakia, and Romania, that might want to be part of Hungary -- this should not be allowed.

The major reason for supporting or opposing such border changes is the treatment of the minorities by the majorities. Without oppression, there is not a good enough reason to change the border.

Who decides? The countries that support the breakaway area, and the recognizing countries. Including, but not limited to, the UN organization as place for the recognized countries to decide whether to recognize or not.


South Sudan might soon have a referendum on splitting -- borders will be an issue, plus minority rights within South Sudan.

Abchasia separatists, being supported by anti-Georgian Russians, are a good example of how flexible borders become very problematic and war inducing. This seems to me to be the realpolitik cost of the correct pro-democracy support for independence.

So I support it, but with acknowledgment of costs -- the costs of not accepting it are also high.
smarter
supjapscrapper wrote:
I believe in a fundamental human right, the right of human beings to define the destiny they owuld like their people to have. If Kosovar people want to be independent, No country, no army, no oppression like the one exerced by the serbs against them and the apartheid, no menace like what this jerk poutine is doing (he'd better take care of getting richer by taking 80% of all money from oil sells) and no UN resolution will change that. History has shoown that people eventually always win wars which have to do with their fundamental right to freedom. Kosovar people are definitely ready for this I guess, from what I see from them. Kosovo is for Albanians and it's their right!


So according to you (my small changes are in bold text):
The Serbs from Kosovo have the right of human beings to define the destiny they owuld like their people to have. If Serbian-Kosovar people want to be independent, No country, no army, no oppression like the one exerced by the kosovar government against them and the apartheid, no menace like... History has shoown that people eventually always win wars which have to do with their fundamental right to freedom. Serbian-Kosovar people are definitely ready for this I guess, from what I see from them. Serbian-inhabited part of Kosovo is for Serbians and it's their right!


I guess that now when Kosovo is ruled by Albanians (sorry! I meant Kosovars!) your "philosophy" is no longer valid. LOL. Bitter laughs. Some people are indeed blind and ...
smarter
TomGrey wrote:
The major reason for supporting or opposing such border changes is the treatment of the minorities by the majorities. Without oppression, there is not a good enough reason to change the border.

Who decides? The countries that support the breakaway area, and the recognizing countries. Including, but not limited to, the UN organization as place for the recognized countries to decide whether to recognize or not.


Who decides? The superpowers!

Not the treatment of the minorities! Compare Kosovo with Tibet. Take into account also the population, history, traditions, culture, etc. Who do you think has a good case for independence?

But China is not Serbia, so Tibet won't get any "support" like Kosovo got. Therefore US Air Force (oficially called the NATO one) won't bomb Beijing (as they did to Belgrade) until the Chinese let Tibet free. All that Tibetans get is some official declarations condemning the Chinese policy.

Just double standards.
LumberJack
HadrianWall wrote:
LumberJack wrote:

Would you rather them start shooting Serbians to try and get their point across that they don't care about "indivisibility of national territory"?

They did that. The policy of legitimization rewards ethnic cleansing, in an amazing turnaround from the international community's stance on these issues in Bosnia. Lest we forget, the reason the UN mission is in Kosovo isn't to protect the Albanians - it is to protect all the minorities; Serbs, Macedonians, Bulgarians, Gypsies - that the Albanians have been persecuting. Some of us think rewarding that sort of behavior is bad policy.
Quote:

Referendums are interesting, democracies change over time, the referendum would be a declaration that they don't care about that part of the constitution, and if they don't have the governing autonomy to change it, then what? I think is where countries should tread carefully....


If referendum are allowed once one part of a conflict has killed or driven away the other part, don't you think it's moot to call for the results to be binding? Well, I guess that if the Qubecois were to kill or run out all English-speakers and then passed a motion to secede from Canada, that'd be a-ok with you too?


I have not forgotten why the UN was there, I am not sure where you read that I am advocating ethnic cleansing, but I certainly don't.

I will however draw a sharp and clear distinction that legitimization of a nation, through a referendum, and the international community recognizing the referendum, does not encourage ethnic cleansing. It may be the beginnings of a step towards stability. In every example that I can think of, the west bank, Israel, Tibet, the Balkan regions, India, the ethnic cleansing occurred before the referendum, largely due to conflicts caused by religion and/or ethnic nationalism. Another requirement is that the persecuted minority must be thinly concentrated within an aggressive majority. If the UN/International community can "round up" the majority, and place them in a safe zone, or country of their own (usually drawn very poorly I will concede), then the Ethnic cleansing will become much more difficult if not ceasing. Due to the fact that the minority can either now defend themselves, or the international community can assist in defending them.

It doesn't mean they still won't fight, or bomb each other, or want to kill each other. However, the problem of ethnic cleansing will have at least abated. It is a small step towards progress. Montenegro was able to separate from Serbia a few years ago, and it has not resulted in any ethic cleansing or "rewarded anyone" for doing it. Rigid constitutions encourages violence when a population insists on change, that is the beauty of democracy in its current state. Generally, a much easier transition.
Melsens
I think there are to many hard feelings between Kosovo, Serbia and many other countries. I don't believe peace will long either way.
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