I wonder, since Firefox is such an excellent browser, why it isn't answer for every web page coded and displayed? Personally, I think that no-one should use Internet Explorer, and every designer should look
how his page looks in Firefox, and forget troubles IE users have.
After all there is even portable version on Firefox which people can carry with them self, if they have IE
installed @ work or anywhere else. Going online and screaming - my page won't display properly in IE 6 or 7 makes me stressed out, and makes me wanna say - you people are annoying. But I won't say that,
though I did. 
| Quote: |
I think that no-one should use Internet Explorer, and every designer should look
how his page looks in Firefox, and forget troubles IE users have. |
Haha. Yeah. I also had this point of view. But my girlfriend can't use Firefox (because her parents don't allow her to install it. They think software that is free of charge downloadable on the net is bad. lol )
And for her I redisigned my whole webproject and it had cost my a lot of time.
Microsoft itself has to improve the funktions of IE and make it use the standards in the web. Every browser must interpret a page in the same way. So that we poor ( 
) webmasters can stop worrying about such issues. Everyone developes his project with his favorit browser and can be sure, it looks exactly like he wanted it to look.I can tell you're not using firefox, with all of the spelling mistakes in that post
The problem with that is the corparations. Firefox isn't that easy to manipulate over a network. Internet Explorer has the group policy which allows IT Guys to control things like proxies, homepagesand updates whereas you only have one chance with Firefox (the install) and updates would have to be done by the end user Ah Yeah. Look at my location: I have german the spellchecker not english^^ Also my grammar is not the best. I'm worried about my A-level-results 
ah, didn't see that
sorry 
If you are working with webpage design, you should have Firefox to control your page, but in the end still a lot of people use Internet Explorer so it's your job to make sure it works for them as well 
The stats are what?........... about 70% of all people still use Explorer? Bottom line is, if you want your site to look good to everyone, you need to worry about Explorer and all it's problems.
Now, if you don't care and are only interested in the other 30%, by all means, code for Firefox only.
Sad but true.
The average computer user will not even think twice about anything else but using what comes on their computer.
i personally don't think that is an issue.. it's the webmaster who makes the errors not the browsers... i may be wrong.. but im saying this because if you re-check your code, you can weed out minor errors that cause disruptions.
I have never come across a complain that my site looks ugly in a different browser ..
Well, when you start doing more complicated things, it is the browser who is wrong most of the time. Even Firefox has problems with things like rendering floats.
But there's good news: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2007/12/19/internet-explorer-8-and-acid2-a-milestone.aspx Yeah, for me we all know about the issues against firefox and IE and how they totally different in design but i guess it's already part of our job to make our design works in both browsers as this is the most common browser used in the internet
People saying that Firefox should be the only browser used are equally annoying as the IE-fans. Or worse, because they try to impose it on others.
| Arnie wrote: |
| People saying that Firefox should be the only browser used are equally annoying as the IE-fans. Or worse, because they try to impose it on others. |
That's true. But there's a difference between that and promoting it. I promote Firefox as I would like a more equal division between browsers, so IE will be forced to comply to the standards. I could also promote Opera, but I personally think Firefox is better. I won't promote Firefox to Opera users though, just to IE users. Firefox as the only browser probably wouldn't be as bad as IE as the only browser, but still choice is always better.I use FF for my browsing but I've also got IE6 & 7, Opera, K-Meleon & Safari for testing my designs, and I can assure you it's not just IE that can cause problems. I've come across instances where FF & IE render the same and Opera renders differently.
To save myself trouble further down the line, I always explicitly define border, margin & padding in my css elements - setting them to zero where required. IE may still throw in the occasional extra pixel on a margin, but I try to create my designs so that it's not really a problem.
By using relative positioning, % rather than fixed width, and a margin of 2px, I get as near as makes no odds what I want. It doesn't really affect my design if the margin renders as 3px rather than 2. I can, though, see the problem for coders using fixed width & absolute positioning.
I've not had a problem using float. Using it in conjunction with clear has solved any problems I had in my early days of coding.
The only other problem I've encountered has been with word wrap. IE uses different characters for wrap points so things can look a bit strange if you're not careful. For example, if you want to write 2+2=4, IE could wrap at the + or the = and that makes it look weird. But, by just altering the wording slightly this problem is easily overcome. However, this is not always a solution if someone is using a different resolution for their monitor.
It would, though, make life a lot easier if all browsers rendered the same. Unfortunately, Microsoft doesn't seem to want to play ball.
just a little note, is it my FF or it cant pass the acid2 test?
http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/
I always thought that firefox displayed everything how it had to be displayed, and now Im just shocked! is it FF not able to display the test correctly? | alalex wrote: |
just a little note, is it my FF or it cant pass the acid2 test?
http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/
I always thought that firefox displayed everything how it had to be displayed, and now Im just shocked! is it FF not able to display the test correctly? |
It doesn't show the right image when you change your default text size. This seems like a flaw, but that's actually what the test's CSS defines.oo i see
thanks a lot, i was starting to lose my faith.. If you're for choice and more equal division between browsers, then by all means suggest Opera besides Firefox.
| TomS wrote: |
| They think software that is free of charge downloadable on the net is bad. lol |
You could ask them where they think Internet Explorer comes from - AFAIK you can download it from Microsoft for free...If Firefox was the only browser on the web, it wouldn't be as good as it is today. There should always be competition! Microsoft thought they had no competition, and didn't bother to do anything to IE6 for a long long time. Then they lost several users to great browsers as Firefox and Opera. Will they get their users back, now that they made IE7? I hope not. But I hope the ones that still uses IE6 install IE7 instead.
Back in the IE-days, many designers coded only for IE, and many had a detection script, that refused anyone but IE-users to access their site. Most of us agree that everyone should be able to choose their own browser. Even if we do a bad choice. Forcing people to use Firefox, is no better than forcing them to use IE. If you design your site for others, it's your responability (to your customer, and the sites users) to design it to work on all browsers and platforms. Using semantic and proper code, should help you get rid of many of those annoying compability problems.
| TomS wrote: |
| But my girlfriend can't use Firefox (because her parents don't allow her to install it. They think software that is free of charge downloadable on the net is bad. lol ) |
Why don't they install an anti-virus program? and anti-spyware? I guess they don't have that installed already. Then they would see all the rubbish IE drags into your computer... If you want your site to be well known, you have to design for the masses.
And 80% of the web (most non-tech-savy Teenagers included) are on IE.
You can design for both, I've done it many times.
But you have to follow standards.
(By the way, Doesn't this belong in a general forum if we're not going to discuss how it relates to HTML, etc.)
| phpc0d3r wrote: |
If you want your site to be well known, you have to design for the masses.
And 80% of the web (most non-tech-savy Teenagers included) are on IE.
You can design for both, I've done it many times.
But you have to follow standards.
(By the way, Doesn't this belong in a general forum if we're not going to discuss how it relates to HTML, etc.) |
Actually according to w3schools.com almost 53.7% use I.E and 36.6% use firefox and the rest is spread across other smaller browser that no1 really cares about developing for. With Every month that goes by Firefox gets more support and I hope it continues. In 2007 alone firefox usage (according to w3schools.com) increased by 5.3%
We Have to push Microsoft out of this market.
"The Internet for the people by the people"
We need to show them (In the words of joomla) "That open source matters.." 
ha there is my rant for the day lol 
| flatliner wrote: |
| phpc0d3r wrote: | If you want your site to be well known, you have to design for the masses.
And 80% of the web (most non-tech-savy Teenagers included) are on IE.
You can design for both, I've done it many times.
But you have to follow standards.
(By the way, Doesn't this belong in a general forum if we're not going to discuss how it relates to HTML, etc.) |
Actually according to w3schools.com almost 53.7% use I.E and 36.6% use firefox and the rest is spread across other smaller browser that no1 really cares about developing for. With Every month that goes by Firefox gets more support and I hope it continues. In 2007 alone firefox usage (according to w3schools.com) increased by 5.3%
We Have to push Microsoft out of this market.
"The Internet for the people by the people"
We need to show them (In the words of joomla) "That open source matters.."
ha there is my rant for the day lol |
That seems nice, but the target audience of w3schools.com isn't the average internet user, so those browser statistics probably aren't representative. | Stubru Freak wrote: |
| flatliner wrote: | | phpc0d3r wrote: | If you want your site to be well known, you have to design for the masses.
And 80% of the web (most non-tech-savy Teenagers included) are on IE.
You can design for both, I've done it many times.
But you have to follow standards.
(By the way, Doesn't this belong in a general forum if we're not going to discuss how it relates to HTML, etc.) |
Actually according to w3schools.com almost 53.7% use I.E and 36.6% use firefox and the rest is spread across other smaller browser that no1 really cares about developing for. With Every month that goes by Firefox gets more support and I hope it continues. In 2007 alone firefox usage (according to w3schools.com) increased by 5.3%
We Have to push Microsoft out of this market.
"The Internet for the people by the people"
We need to show them (In the words of joomla) "That open source matters.."
ha there is my rant for the day lol |
That seems nice, but the target audience of w3schools.com isn't the average internet user, so those browser statistics probably aren't representative. |
Yea I suppose your right, oh well I can but dream, ha if only google made their stats public
This might be somewhat a bigger or at least more widespread audience than w3schools
http://www.onestat.com/html/aboutus_pressbox44-mozilla-firefox-has-slightly-increased.html | rvec wrote: |
| if only google made their stats public |
It would probably be biased as Google is the default start page on Firefox. For the same reason MSN wouldn't be a good choice either.
That's a good source, though it's from 2006, things have changed. These are the browsers that web designers should be focussing on!
IE is slow and annoying, but most people don't wanna change, either because they can't be bothered, or don't see a reason to - they're happy with the slowness of IE. | alalex wrote: |
just a little note, is it my FF or it cant pass the acid2 test?
http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/
I always thought that firefox displayed everything how it had to be displayed, and now Im just shocked! is it FF not able to display the test correctly? |
really its the firefox
because firefox forgot that between standards war between ie
while ie now is passing the test
| flatliner wrote: |
| phpc0d3r wrote: | If you want your site to be well known, you have to design for the masses.
And 80% of the web (most non-tech-savy Teenagers included) are on IE.
You can design for both, I've done it many times.
But you have to follow standards.
(By the way, Doesn't this belong in a general forum if we're not going to discuss how it relates to HTML, etc.) |
Actually according to w3schools.com almost 53.7% use I.E and 36.6% use firefox and the rest is spread across other smaller browser that no1 really cares about developing for. With Every month that goes by Firefox gets more support and I hope it continues. In 2007 alone firefox usage (according to w3schools.com) increased by 5.3%
We Have to push Microsoft out of this market.
"The Internet for the people by the people"
We need to show them (In the words of joomla) "That open source matters.."
ha there is my rant for the day lol |
don't think only firefox is open source
opera and konqueror are open source too
but fire fox has not passed standards clearly | mahirharoon wrote: |
| alalex wrote: | just a little note, is it my FF or it cant pass the acid2 test?
http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/
I always thought that firefox displayed everything how it had to be displayed, and now Im just shocked! is it FF not able to display the test correctly? |
really its the firefox
because firefox forgot that between standards war between ie
while ie now is passing the test
|
Before you start criticizing, make sure you check your sources. IE7 doesn't pass the Acid 2 test at all, Firefox 2 does much better.
Also, a development version of Firefox that passes Acid 2 has been around for about a year now, while the first development version of Internet Explorer to pass Acid 2 has only just been released.
The final release of Firefox 3 will also probably be much sooner than the final release of IE 8.
And Acid 2 is old, all browsers can render it correctly now. The Web Standards Project has now released a new version of Acid, Acid 3, which Firefox passes 67%, while IE 8 only passes about 8% and makes the page unreadable.
| Quote: |
don't think only firefox is open source
opera and konqueror are open source too
but fire fox has not passed standards clearly |
Opera isn't open source at all, and though Konqueror is open source, it isn't the obvious choice for a Windows user. | Stubru Freak wrote: |
| mahirharoon wrote: | | alalex wrote: | just a little note, is it my FF or it cant pass the acid2 test?
http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/
I always thought that firefox displayed everything how it had to be displayed, and now Im just shocked! is it FF not able to display the test correctly? |
really its the firefox
because firefox forgot that between standards war between ie
while ie now is passing the test
|
Before you start criticizing, make sure you check your sources. IE7 doesn't pass the Acid 2 test at all, Firefox 2 does much better.
Also, a development version of Firefox that passes Acid 2 has been around for about a year now, while the first development version of Internet Explorer to pass Acid 2 has only just been released.
The final release of Firefox 3 will also probably be much sooner than the final release of IE 8.
And Acid 2 is old, all browsers can render it correctly now. The Web Standards Project has now released a new version of Acid, Acid 3, which Firefox passes 67%, while IE 8 only passes about 8% and makes the page unreadable.
| Quote: | don't think only firefox is open source
opera and konqueror are open source too
but fire fox has not passed standards clearly |
Opera isn't open source at all, and though Konqueror is open source, it isn't the obvious choice for a Windows user. |
no , ie7 passes 8% not ie8
in ie8 its 24 %
than how about opera and konquerer in acid 3 | mahirharoon wrote: |
| Stubru Freak wrote: | | mahirharoon wrote: | | alalex wrote: | just a little note, is it my FF or it cant pass the acid2 test?
http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/
I always thought that firefox displayed everything how it had to be displayed, and now Im just shocked! is it FF not able to display the test correctly? |
really its the firefox
because firefox forgot that between standards war between ie
while ie now is passing the test
|
Before you start criticizing, make sure you check your sources. IE7 doesn't pass the Acid 2 test at all, Firefox 2 does much better.
Also, a development version of Firefox that passes Acid 2 has been around for about a year now, while the first development version of Internet Explorer to pass Acid 2 has only just been released.
The final release of Firefox 3 will also probably be much sooner than the final release of IE 8.
And Acid 2 is old, all browsers can render it correctly now. The Web Standards Project has now released a new version of Acid, Acid 3, which Firefox passes 67%, while IE 8 only passes about 8% and makes the page unreadable.
| Quote: | don't think only firefox is open source
opera and konqueror are open source too
but fire fox has not passed standards clearly |
Opera isn't open source at all, and though Konqueror is open source, it isn't the obvious choice for a Windows user. |
no , ie7 passes 8% not ie8
in ie8 its 24 %
than how about opera and konquerer in acid 3 |
24% is still a lot less than 67%.
And Opera also does less good. I don't know about Konqueror.
Yes, of course, we're talking about Acid 3 here. Opera actually does less good at the moment, though it might well be the first to pass. Opera 9.50 beta 1 does 65% compared to 67% on Firefox 3.0 beta 4. Wow, what a difference. Guess that's why you forgot to list Opera's percentage, huh?
| Arnie wrote: |
| Opera 9.50 beta 1 does 65% compared to 67% on Firefox 3.0 beta 4. Wow, what a difference. Guess that's why you forgot to list Opera's percentage, huh? |
Oh sorry, I checked using Opera's latest stable version. I guessed 9.26 or 9.50 wouldn't make much of a difference. I clearly was wrong. | Bengt wrote: |
| If you are working with webpage design, you should have Firefox to control your page, but in the end still a lot of people use Internet Explorer so it's your job to make sure it works for them as well |
Almost all of a properly validated XHTML standards page would be displayed without much difference in most of the browsers... and basically now Firefox is almost the standard browser for all developers.. (Web Developer toolbar, User Agent Switcher... and all), so asking all the developers to make each and everythin compatible with IE would be too much...I had an idea that will never come about, but I thought I would post it just because it would be every web-designers dream.
Why not keep the different browsers, just instead of the browsers interpreting the code, why not have the browsers download the files that tell how to read the code. So basically, have the files online at an "official" website, and then when a new version of CSS, PHP, or whatever comes out, you just go there and update your browser? That way all the IE users would keep the IE interface that they like, and all the Fire Fox users would keep the Fire Fox interface, etc...
I have no clue if it would be possible, but I still think it would awesome. Actually, the new Fire Fox beta version doesn't even pass web standards test (or whatever you call it. Check here: http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html | guitarcrazy087 wrote: |
I had an idea that will never come about, but I thought I would post it just because it would be every web-designers dream.
Why not keep the different browsers, just instead of the browsers interpreting the code, why not have the browsers download the files that tell how to read the code. So basically, have the files online at an "official" website, and then when a new version of CSS, PHP, or whatever comes out, you just go there and update your browser? That way all the IE users would keep the IE interface that they like, and all the Fire Fox users would keep the Fire Fox interface, etc...
I have no clue if it would be possible, but I still think it would awesome. Actually, the new Fire Fox beta version doesn't even pass web standards test (or whatever you call it. Check here: http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html |
First of all that would of course be a great idea, but browsers always want to make their own code to speed up the engine. Also, different browsers have different needs (programming language/OS/...). But that's what standards are for. They essentially say that a browser can make their own implementation, if it works correctly. But sadly, all browsers fail there.
And the latest Firefox beta does pass that test.First of all, I am user and I don't care which one browser is better. I want to see page correct. If is page ugly or not working properly in my browser I am just close it. I will not change my browser because this browser didn't pass some standards or because some pages not working correctly. Few weeks ago I am comming on one site. Left top on the page is write something like: "We are not suport IE browser. Use Firefox or any other browser to see our site." This is atack on my rights. If they don't care about me (user) why I must care about them. CLOSE!
We are driving different cars, work different jobs, like different paintings. In that case it is not at possible to use only one browser for all users on the Internet. Any webmaster must care about their users, not about something what someone write. This true story above can show how is easy to lose lot of visitors. For what, for browser war between FF and IE? This is not OK. If my site visit 73% IE users, 25% FF users and rest is others then I will create site what IE and FF users can see correct.
Sonam
Yes, I knew there would be a problem with that idea. I just didn't know what it was. Sorry, I must have gotten my facts wrong about the browser test.
Yeah, seeing that the world will never conform to only one browser, web-designers should take the time and effort to make they're sites work in all browsers. Really, it's not that hard. Especially if you check your work as you go. Then you can tell exactly what make a browser go wrong, and easily find a work around. | sonam wrote: |
First of all, I am user and I don't care which one browser is better. I want to see page correct. If is page ugly or not working properly in my browser I am just close it. I will not change my browser because this browser didn't pass some standards or because some pages not working correctly. Few weeks ago I am comming on one site. Left top on the page is write something like: "We are not suport IE browser. Use Firefox or any other browser to see our site." This is atack on my rights. If they don't care about me (user) why I must care about them. CLOSE!
We are driving different cars, work different jobs, like different paintings. In that case it is not at possible to use only one browser for all users on the Internet. Any webmaster must care about their users, not about something what someone write. This true story above can show how is easy to lose lot of visitors. For what, for browser war between FF and IE? This is not OK. If my site visit 73% IE users, 25% FF users and rest is others then I will create site what IE and FF users can see correct.
Sonam |
This has nothing to do with rights. The internet is free and every website owner can do what he wants. About losing customers, programmers cost money, and if IE didn't have the huge market share it has now, the few customers closing the website wouldn't cost as much as updating the site to support it.
Of course, in the current situation, excluding IE isn't smart at all, if you want to sell something. | Quote: |
| This has nothing to do with rights. |
Actually it is. If I cannot see some sites because ovners preffer FF and stop responding site for IE, and, even more, try to force me for using some other "good" browsers then he/she make atack on me. This is my feeling, maybe I am too sensitive, but I haven't tolerance for them.
In other hand if webmaster have good knowledge about web design and if he/she follow all sugestions (w3schools, etc) then codding for IE is in most situation few lines more in CSS, nothing else.
Sonam | Quote: |
| Quote: | Quote:
This has nothing to do with rights. |
Actually it is. If I cannot see some sites because ovners preffer FF and stop responding site for IE, and, even more, try to force me for using some other "good" browsers then he/she make atack on me. This is my feeling, maybe I am too sensitive, but I haven't tolerance for them. |
Well, I must differ there. It doesn't have anything to do with rights. Me not making my sites IE compatible isn't an attack on you. If it were, that would mean for me not to "attack" you, I would be forced to make my sites IE compatible. I think your view of rights is messed up. You have a right to do what you want, but you don't have the right to make other people do things because that would be infringing on their right to do whatever they want. Anyway, that's a little off-topic, but the point is that no one has to make their sites IE compatible, but I think we all know that it's the wisest thing to do.
