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Jesus in Old Testament

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palavra
As i know Christians claim hundreds (maybe thousands) of proofs in the Old Testiment about Jesus.

I want to learn what Jewish people think about these proofs.


and

secondly if there are these proofs why a large number of Jewish people didn't convert to
Christianity.
coolclay
Thats a good question, I myself have often why Jews are still stuck in the old testament.
Bikerman
Many of these 'proofs' are questionable. Here's a site which lists most of them
http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm
The problem is that many such prophecies are very general and almost certain to be true for any Jew of the period; for example that the messiah would be a 'descendant of Abraham' - well duh!

There are also good reasons to doubt some of the supposed prophecies being fulfilled. Take one of the basic ones - he would be born in Bethlehem.
Quote:
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.
Well, was Jesus born in Bethlehem?
Luke says so, but the story is rather far-fetched. The whole story of travelling from Nazareth to Bethlehem for the Roman census is highly dubious for many reasons:
  • there is no record of such a census in the historical documents of the time
  • Joseph would not have needed to take Mary in order to register for any such census
  • Would a 9-month pregnant woman really travel 100 miles on a donkey?
  • Census' were and are taken where people live - the notion that you would have to travel to your ancestral home to register is nonsense - it simply didn't happen.
Mark, on the other hand lists Nazareth as Jesus' hometown (6:1).
Even more damning is the archaeological record. Recent evidence suggests that Bethlehem was not even a functioning place of residence in the 1st century BCE - nobody lived there.

I prefer to take a more scientific approach to issues like this. Rather than look to prove each individual prophecy it is surely much more productive to try and disprove any single one. Surely if one of the prophecies is NOT fulfilled then the whole point falls.

On the general issue of why the Jews did not convert to Christianity...well many did. There were three main strands of Christianity about a century after Jesus' time. Those are now known as:
Jewish Christianity (based around James - the brother of Jesus. They believed that Jesus was just a man, albeit a prophet, and that there was no virgin birth) ;
Pauline Christianity (led by Paul, this strand evolved into what we see today) and
Gnostic Christianity (who believe that Christ was pure spirit and that Jesus merely appeared to be human).

The Gnostics were persecuted by other Christians and all-but wiped out (there are still some around in the middle-east). Jewish Christians were all-but wiped out by the Roman attack on Jerusalem in around 70CE, so that left the Pauline Christians.
Soulfire
Quote:
secondly if there are these proofs why a large number of Jewish people didn't convert to
Christianity.

All that Christianity is is a Jewish sect.
Flarkis
I my self have done a large amount of research into the 5 main world religions and this is what i can say on this issue. The old testament says that there will be a messiah to save the Jewish people. The many prophets give hints as to the coming of the new messiah in sermons, but all of these hints are pretty general. The Jewish people believe that Jesus is not the messiah but the real messiah will be coming. Well on the other hand christian who follow there messiah do not follow very many of the teachings that the Jewish people follow. It is very confusing why each group is where they are.

Hope that helps,
Markus
jeremyp
palavra wrote:
As i know Christians claim hundreds (maybe thousands) of proofs in the Old Testiment about Jesus.

They claim that, but actually, there is no mention of Jesus in the Old Testament at all.

Quote:
I want to learn what Jewish people think about these proofs.

I can't speak for the Jews, but as the proofs don't exist, I can imagine what they think.
Quote:
if there are these proofs why a large number of Jewish people didn't convert to
Christianity.

Because the so-called proofs aren't really.
achowles
Quote:
for example that the messiah would be a 'descendant of Abraham' - well duh!


Actually, it was a descendant of David - Romans 1:3. According to Christians, Jesus is not a descendant of David. As Joseph (who is a descendant of David) is not the father. God is.

So, according to Christians, Jesus doesn't fulfil even that part of the prophecy.
Jinx
achowles wrote:
Quote:
for example that the messiah would be a 'descendant of Abraham' - well duh!


Actually, it was a descendant of David - Romans 1:3. According to Christians, Jesus is not a descendant of David. As Joseph (who is a descendant of David) is not the father. God is.

So, according to Christians, Jesus doesn't fulfil even that part of the prophecy.


Actually, I believe that Mary was also a descendant of David. I may be misremembering this, though...
Bikerman
achowles wrote:
Quote:
for example that the messiah would be a 'descendant of Abraham' - well duh!


Actually, it was a descendant of David - Romans 1:3. According to Christians, Jesus is not a descendant of David. As Joseph (who is a descendant of David) is not the father. God is.

So, according to Christians, Jesus doesn't fulfil even that part of the prophecy.

I stand corrected.
Indi
Bikerman wrote:
achowles wrote:
Quote:
for example that the messiah would be a 'descendant of Abraham' - well duh!


Actually, it was a descendant of David - Romans 1:3. According to Christians, Jesus is not a descendant of David. As Joseph (who is a descendant of David) is not the father. God is.

So, according to Christians, Jesus doesn't fulfil even that part of the prophecy.

I stand corrected.

Not really - there was another prophecy that he would be a descendant of Abraham. Which is another way of saying he would be a Jew (racially, if not religiously).

Jinx wrote:
Actually, I believe that Mary was also a descendant of David. I may be misremembering this, though...

Maybe, maybe not. i don't recall Mary's genealogy ever being explicitly given.
Bikerman
I correct my previous correction Smile
Quote:
- Act. 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed."

I think that is the passage which is taken to mean that Jesus would be a descendant of Abraham.
Indi
Bikerman wrote:
I correct my previous correction Smile
Quote:
- Act. 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed."

I think that is the passage which is taken to mean that Jesus would be a descendant of Abraham.

Actually, in Genesis it says that bit in quotes. That would be the source of the actual prophecy. Acts is just saying "see? the prophecy came true!"
Bikerman
Yep - I stand corrected on my previous correction Smile
I really should read my bible again soon, I'm obviously in need of a refresher
palavra
Bikerman wrote:
Yep - I stand corrected on my previous correction Smile
I really should read my bible again soon, I'm obviously in need of a refresher


Keep reading! eventually you will be a devouted christian Wink

thanks for the link. I checked it and i try to understand.


Actually we -muslims- believe there are a lots of proofs in old-new testament about our prophet.
when i clear my thoughts i will write something about it also.
Indi
Bikerman wrote:
Yep - I stand corrected on my previous correction Smile
I really should read my bible again soon, I'm obviously in need of a refresher

Oh, i don't know. ^_^; If you want my opinion, that Genesis comment about the coming messiah being a descendant of Abraham is kind of a lame excuse for a prophecy. "The Jewish messiah will be a Jew!" durrr.

But, Christians counting fulfilled prophesies do number it among the set, so... take is as you like.
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