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Are (Radical) Muslims Stupid?





Billy Hill
They come over here to the US and Western Europe and expect us to respect their religious beliefs while they try to trample on ours.

NOT ONLY to they do that, they take it to the next step and try to pass new LAWs stating they should be able to have veils on while getting their license picture taken, or going through airports, or walking thru secure environments.

If I have a ski mask on and I walk into any number of places AS AN AMERICAN I would be asked to take it off in seconds, or shot.. Depending where.

If we moved to their country, we would probably be shot (peace and kindness) if we asked for laws to be changed to accommodate western religions.

They are trying to have a law passed saying that all employers and public places should honor the 3 prayer times a day deal and also give them paid time on the clock to read their Allahs guide to Jihad missions book.

My question is.. Who do they think they are? Why do they feel they can even approach the U.S. to try and change laws? Is that stupid of the Muslims, or stupid of Christians for letting it go as far as it's gone?

What I also find funny is how they love to quote our freedoms (speech, religions, etc.) but they are the exact opposite when their religion is in question. They make fun of other religious figures but make one drawing of Mohammed and they cry jihad.

They really don't like you, they use their religion as an excuse to kill you.

Ok, I'm not sure I'd call them stupid, but brainwashed to where they can't think or reason for themselves on certain topics seems pretty accurate to me. Take a typical jihad bound muslim baby born in the middle east and raise them in the US with a typical American family and they would end up watching Nascar with a beer in their hand.

/waits to see if this thread gets locked when other threads calling Americans stupid are not.
PMK-Bear
Please, head to your public library, tie yourself to a chair there, and once you find a backing argument or anything resembling that, PLEASE, PLEASE, come back.

Otherwise go back to lgf, chap. You might even fit under their moderate audience, I guess.
Bikerman
Billy Hill wrote:
They come over here to the US and Western Europe and expect us to respect their religious beliefs while they try to trample on ours.
Which part of Western Europe would that be? I live in Western Europe and I haven't noticed any moves by Muslims to try and change the law in their favour.
There are a few radical Muslims who want Sharia Law introduced (for Muslims, not everyone else) but there again there are a few radical Christians who want all sorts of laws changing (laws on Sunday trading, capital punishment, abortion and homosexuality to name just a few).
Billy Hill
Haven't heard of the Muslim Brotherhood, eh?

Quote:
Since its founding in 1928, the Muslim Brotherhood (Hizb al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun) has profoundly influenced the political life of the Middle East. Its motto is telling: "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope."[1]

While the Brotherhood's radical ideas have shaped the beliefs of generations of Islamists, over the past two decades, it has lost some of its power and appeal in the Middle East, crushed by harsh repression from local regimes and snubbed by the younger generations of Islamists who often prefer more radical organizations.

But the Middle East is only one part of the Muslim world. Europe has become an incubator for Islamist thought and political development. Since the early 1960s, Muslim Brotherhood members and sympathizers have moved to Europe and slowly but steadily established a wide and well-organized network of mosques, charities, and Islamic organizations. Unlike the larger Islamic community, the Muslim Brotherhood's ultimate goal may not be simply "to help Muslims be the best citizens they can be," but rather to extend Islamic law throughout Europe and the United States.[2]

Quote:
The situation in Germany is particularly telling. More than anywhere else in Europe, the Muslim Brotherhood in Germany has gained significant power and political acceptance. Islamist organizations in other European countries now consciously follow the model pioneered by their German peers.

Wink
Bikerman
Oh yes, I've heard of them. They are one of the radical groups I was referring to - they would like to introduce Sharia law. That wasn't my point. I have seen no attempts to introduce any legislation by any Muslim group here in the UK - that was my point. You said
Quote:
NOT ONLY to they do that, they take it to the next step and try to pass new LAWs stating they should be able to have veils on while getting their license picture taken, or going through airports, or walking thru secure environments.
and
Quote:
They are trying to have a law passed saying that all employers and public places should honor the 3 prayer times a day deal and also give them paid time on the clock to read their Allahs guide to Jihad missions book.

Well, not here they haven't and, as far as I know, not anywhere else in Europe.

Any person or group is entitled to have beliefs and 'wishes' or goals. That is part of being a democratic society. The other part of being a democratic society is that Muslims would have to gain the support of the majority population in order to pass such laws, so what are you worried about? Do you really think the US will pass laws to make you all pray to Mecca three times a day? Or are you simply outraged that some muslims might like such a law?
Billy Hill
Bikerman wrote:
Oh yes, I've heard of them.


Then perhaps you misread the title?

Quote:
Are (Radical) Muslims Stupid?


I did it like that because, even though it's OK to generalize about Americans (as in being stupid), it's not ok to generalize about Muslims, so I have to say (radical) Muslims or my posts get deleted locked or otherwise silenced. Wink
Bikerman
Billy Hill wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
Oh yes, I've heard of them.


Then perhaps you misread the title?

Quote:
Are (Radical) Muslims Stupid?


I did it like that because, even though it's OK to generalize about Americans being stupid, it's not ok to generalize about Muslims being stupid, so I have to say (radical) Muslims. Wink
It's perfectly OK to say what you like about radical Muslims. You can say what you like about Muslims of all descriptions. We live in a democratic society and you seem to be having no problems expressing your views.
My point is that you should be prepared to back up points like those above if you want to be taken seriously.
Billy Hill
Bikerman wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
Oh yes, I've heard of them.


Then perhaps you misread the title?

Quote:
Are (Radical) Muslims Stupid?


I did it like that because, even though it's OK to generalize about Americans being stupid, it's not ok to generalize about Muslims being stupid, so I have to say (radical) Muslims. Wink
It's perfectly OK to say what you like about radical Muslims. You can say what you like about Muslims of all descriptions. We live in a democratic society and you seem to be having no problems expressing your views.
My point is that you should be prepared to back up points like those above if you want to be taken seriously.


Um, I thought I did back them up with the reference to the Muslim Brotherhood. Or are you denying they are effecting changes in EU law?
Bikerman
Billy Hill wrote:
Um, I thought I did back them up with the reference to the Muslim Brotherhood. Or are you denying they are effecting changes in EU law?
Yes I am absolutely saying that they are not changing EU law.
MaxStirner
Let me, if I may, address the only one of your statements that I am able to agree with:
Billy Hill wrote:
If I have a ski mask on and I walk into any number of places AS AN AMERICAN I would be asked to take it off in seconds, or shot.. Depending where.

I certainly agree with you that tighter control on fire-arms would be very welcome. We certainly don't want AMERICANS shot when shopping for ski apparel.
Bikerman
MaxStirner wrote:
Let me, if I may, address the only one of your statements that I am able to agree with:
Billy Hill wrote:
If I have a ski mask on and I walk into any number of places AS AN AMERICAN I would be asked to take it off in seconds, or shot.. Depending where.

I certainly agree with you that tighter control on fire-arms would be very welcome. We certainly don't want AMERICANS shot when shopping for ski apparel.

But when they jump the queue at the ski-lift I think a reasonable case can be made for machine-gunning.
Billy Hill
They're guided by an irrational desire to eliminate those that don't agree with their religious beliefs. All major religions are extremely divisive. They serve only to pit one group against another in quests to support their "God." How someone can get so "wrapped around the axle" by something that is based on fiction (IMO) and can be in no way proven (Fact) is just stupid.

They are brainwashed from infancy in their beliefs just like all religions. But the Muslim Religion is especially dangerous as there are more in the world than any other sect, and they believe that if you are not a believer in Muhamud, you need to die. They are all reading from the same Koran so even the ones who are not extremists must believe the same. If they didn't, then the non-extremists should purge their religion of the extremists.

For the record, Christians generally don't walk into your school and blow themselves up. Not regularly anyhow.
Bikerman
Billy Hill wrote:
For the record, Christians generally don't walk into your school and blow themselves up. Not regularly anyhow.


No. Neither do Muslims. Can you list the schools blown-up by Muslim bombers?

Christians tend to use the firearm approach to school attrocities. Here's a list of US school attrocities. I don't know how many of the shooters were Christian but, in the US, it will be a significant number, almost certainly.

University of Texas at Austin massacre Austin, Texas, United States August 1, 1966
Orangeburg Massacre Orangeburg, South Carolina, United States February 8, 1968
Kent State shootings Kent, Ohio, United States May 4, 1970
Jackson State killings Jackson, Mississippi, United States May 14-15, 1970
California State University, Fullerton Library Massacre Fullerton, California, United States July 12, 1976
Cleveland Elementary School shooting San Diego, California, United States January 29, 1979
Parkway South Junior High School shooting Saint Louis, Missouri, United States January 20, 1983
Stockton massacre Stockton, California, United States January 17, 1989
University of Iowa shooting Iowa City, Iowa, United States November 1, 1991
Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States December 14, 1992
Lindhurst High School shooting Marysville, California, United States May 1, 1992
East Carter High School shooting Grayson, Kentucky, United States January 18, 1993
Richland High School shooting Lynnville, Tennessee, United States November 15, 1995
Frontier Junior High shooting Moses Lake, Washington, United States February 2, 1996
Bethel High School shooting Bethel, Alaska, United States February 19, 1997
Pearl High School shooting Pearl, Mississippi, United States October 1, 1997
Heath High School shooting West Paducah, Kentucky United States December 1, 1997
Jonesboro massacre Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States March 24, 1998
Parker Middle School Shooting Edinboro, Pennsylvania April 24, 1998
Thurston High School shooting Springfield, Oregon, United States May 21, 1998
Columbine High School massacre near Littleton, Colorado, United States April 20, 1999
Heritage High School shooting Conyers, Georgia, United States May 20, 1999
Buell Elementary School shooting Mount Morris Township, Michigan, United States February 29, 2000
Santana High School shooting Santee, California, United States March 5, 2001
Granite Hills High School shooting El Cajon, California March 22, 2001
Appalachian School of Law shooting Grundy, Virginia, United States January 16, 2002
John McDonogh High School Shooting New Orleans, La., United States April 14, 2003
Red Lion Area Junior High School shootings Red Lion, Pennsylvania, United States April 24, 2003
Rocori High School shootings Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States September 24, 2003
Red Lake High School massacre Red Lake, Minnesota, United States March 21, 2005
Campbell County High School shooting Jacksboro, Tennessee November 8, 2005
Pine Middle School shooting Reno, Nevada, United States March 14, 2006
Platte Canyon High School shooting Bailey, Colorado, United States September 27, 2006
Weston High School shooting Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29, 2006
Amish school shooting Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States October 2, 2006
Virginia Tech massacre Blacksburg, Virginia, United States April 16, 2007
Delaware State University shooting Dover, Delaware, United States September 21, 2007
SuccessTech Academy shooting Cleveland, Ohio, United States October 10, 2007

Source ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#North_America
Billy Hill
Bikerman wrote:


No. Neither do Muslims.

Christians tend to use the firearm approach to school attrocities. Here's a list of US attrocities. Not all of the shooters were Christian, no doubt, but a good proportion were.


You list less than 50 incidents by (almost entirely) single individuals in the last 40 or 50 years against schools (i.e. children).

There have been 77 CHILDREN killed or wounded by Islamic terrorists IN THE LAST TWO MONTHS

Including, on 12/26/2007 in Thailand when Islamic terrorists used children in a school as human shields to ambush a group of local soldiers, killing three.

Including, on 12/12/2007 in Iraq when Sectarian Jihadis enter a school and shoot two teachers to death.

Including, on 12/3/2007 in Pakistan when the Taliban is suspected in the bombing of a school that leaves six teenaged boys dead.

Also: There have been 35 jihad attacks in the last week with over 200 dead bodies.

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
Bikerman
Billy Hill wrote:
You list less than 50 incidents by (almost entirely) single individuals in the last 40 or 50 years against schools (i.e. children).

There have been 77 CHILDREN killed or wounded by Islamic terrorists IN THE LAST TWO MONTHS

Including, on 12/26/2007 in Thailand when Islamic terrorists used children in a school as human shields to ambush a group of local soldiers, killing three.

Including, on 12/12/2007 in Iraq when Sectarian Jihadis enter a school and shoot two teachers to death.

Including, on 12/3/2007 in Pakistan when the Taliban is suspected in the bombing of a school that leaves six teenaged boys dead.
So you have listed 3 incidents, as opposed to 50. The 50 occurred in one country whereas the 3 were in 3 different countries.
I don't want to get into a numbers game because that was not the point. Your point was that there is something (almost) exclusively Muslim about this sort of attrocity - my point is that there certainly is not.
Quote:
More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.
Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.
More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
And what are your sources for these 'facts'? The 'fact' about the spanish inquisition is almost certainly wrong, depending on how it is defined. Far more innocent women were burned as witches throughout Europe in that period than Muslim terrorism has accounted for. Comparing Muslim terrorism to the KKK merely serves to strengthen my case that there are nutcases on all sides.
Your only point seems to be that maybe the Muslim nutcases are currently killing more people than the Christian nutcases. Should we therefore look at how many people have been killed by Christians in the world, over (say) the last 100 years, and compare it to the number killed by Muslims? What would it prove?
Billy Hill
Bikerman wrote:
[So you have listed 3 incidents, as opposed to 50.


Yes. Three incidents in only two months, verses less than fifty incidents in the last several decades. Of the three listed, they all involved Islamic Muslims following the call of Jihad world wide while using children as either a shield or as targets. I did not list the other incidents involving kids because they were not school related, but most were home related, or mall, or otherwise in a public setting.

Shall I go back further? Oh, wait, all of a sudden you don't want to play the "numbers game". Why's that? Is it because it's a no win game for Islamic Muslims when looking at barbaric, uncivil, hateful, religious freaks that collectively think it's OK to murder women and children in the name of their God.

Quote:
there is something (almost) exclusively Muslim about this sort of attrocity - my point is that there certainly is not.


There certainly IS a singularity to Islamic Muslims that is not the belief of any other group of any significant size based on religious or non-religious beliefs. What other religious (or non-religious) group thinks that kind of behavior is acceptable? (I'm talking about suicide bombers blowing themselves (and/or their kids) up in shopping malls or using women and children as a shield, not Japanese fighter pilots ramming their fuel laden planes into another military target) I can't think of any.

Remember, they all follow the same Quran, and are instructed to take it literally, correct? Shall I start quoting the Quran to make my supposedly "out of context" point?

Quote:
The 'fact' about the spanish inquisition is almost certainly wrong,


Good thing you said "almost" Wink

Read this from Thomas F. Madden, an associate professor and chairman of the Department of History at Saint Louis University

http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm
Bikerman
Billy Hill wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
[So you have listed 3 incidents, as opposed to 50.


Yes. Three incidents in only two months, verses less than fifty incidents in the last several decades. Of the three listed, they all involved Islamic Muslims following the call of Jihad world wide while using children as either a shield or as targets. I did not list the other incidents involving kids because they were not school related, but most were home related, or mall, or otherwise in a public setting.
Well since your original point was about schools it is right to stick to that.
Quote:

Shall I go back further? Oh, wait, all of a sudden you don't want to play the "numbers game". Why's that? Is it because it's a no win game for Islamic Muslims when looking at barbaric, uncivil, hateful, religious freaks that collectively think it's OK to murder women and children in the name of their God.
No, because it's a futile exercise. The point is that it proves nothing other than Muslims kill people, Christians kill people and people of all faiths (even atheists) kill people.
If you really want to go down that route then why not stick with your original point - school attacks. Name an Islamic country which has had more school attacks than the 37 I listed for the US in the last half-century. There may well be one, but I don't know of any off-hand, do you?
Quote:
There certainly IS a singularity to Islamic Muslims that is not the belief of any other group of any significant size based on religious or non-religious beliefs. What other religious (or non-religious) group thinks that kind of behavior is acceptable? (I'm talking about suicide bombers blowing themselves (and/or their kids) up in shopping malls or using women and children as a shield, not Japanese fighter pilots ramming their fuel laden planes into another military target) I can't think of any.
Firstly, you are talking about a particular and very small sub-set of Muslims - you occasionally remember that and then forget it again. An Islamic Muslim is a tautology - all Muslims are Islamic - that's what the word means.
Secondly, you frequently use examples where the killings are in occupied territories (Palestinians and Iraqis for example) which are not largely motivated by religion so much as social political considerations - hatred of the occupier being an important one.
Thirdly, why do you single out a tactic rather than the result? Suicide bombing is a tactic which is, admittedly, scarey to the west because it allows the bomber to get past most reasonable security precautions built around military superiority. It is, however, no more or less immoral than (say) dropping a bomb from 30,000 feet onto a civilian target, and it is certainly less cowardly.
Quote:
Remember, they all follow the same Quran, and are instructed to take it literally, correct? Shall I start quoting the Quran to make my supposedly "out of context" point?
Help yourself, and I will match you quote for quote from the Old Testament. It will prove nothing but if that is how you wish to procede then feel free.
Quote:
Read this from Thomas F. Madden, an associate professor and chairman of the Department of History at Saint Louis University
http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm

I did. I found it interesting in parts, and not unreasonable. It is concerned specifically with the court of the Spanish Inquisition, which is why I said it depends on your definition. If you count only the specific victims of the court itself then the figure of about 4000 killings is probably correct. If, however, you count the associated killings which were inspired by Christian hatred of the times then the figures are in the tens or even hundreds of thousands.
Now you read this:
http://www.gendercide.org/case_witchhunts.html
Billy Hill
Bikerman wrote:
Well since your original point was about schools it is right to stick to that.


Actually, my point was if RIMs are stupid. I used schools (i.e. children) as an example of their supposed stupidity.

Quote:
The point is that it proves nothing other than Muslims kill people, Christians kill people and people of all faiths (even atheists) kill people.


Wrong. Christians don't go about killing the way Muslims do. Specifically targeting and hiding behind children and women. Specifically targeting shopping malls and schools instead of military facilities.

Quote:
Firstly, you are talking about a particular and very small sub-set of Muslims


Small sub set? Percentage wise, you could consider it a fraction. But sheer numbers? What other group that consists of tens or hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people that think the methods used by these Islamic Muslims are acceptable.

Quote:
Secondly, you frequently use examples where the killings are in occupied territories (Palestinians and Iraqis for example)


Yep, it's all about Iraq and...

India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Argentina and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal
and the Maldives and...

...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

Qur'an, Sura 9:29 wrote:
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."


Quote:

Thirdly, why do you single out a tactic rather than the result?


Wow. I don't think I can justify that level of ignorance with an answer. Nor do I think I should.

Suffice it to say that you trying to convert me to your religion by knocking on my door and talking to me for 20 minutes then leaving is a tad bit more acceptable than killing me. Or my kid. Or your kid in order to kill me or my kid.

Just wow. Rolling Eyes
Bikerman
You're obviously someone with a problem, and as much as I am willing to debate with any reasonable person on any topic, I don't think that debating with you is actually achieving anything. You obviously don't want to read or see anything that might challenge your world-view. I normally try to make allowances for the age/education of the poster but in your case I suspect that would be neither apt nor helpful.

Your last comment, for example, taking my quote out of context and then calling it ignorant*, is the offensive and dishonest debating tactic of a zealot. It indicates that you are not someone capable of holding a civilised conversation and consequently I will leave you to your opinions and debate you no more, since I have no wish to encourage you.

*I sought to draw the distinction between tactic and result. I clearly meant (and said) that suicide bombing, as a tactical approach to killing people, is no more or less moral than bombing them from 30,000ft. The result, in both cases, is the death of innocent civilians. Comparing it to door-to-door preaching is a deliberate misconstruction and an offensive one at that.

(edited to correct grammatical errors and remove potentially offensive language which I included unthinkingly)
ThePolemistis
Billy Hill wrote:

...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

Qur'an, Sura 9:29 wrote:
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."




hmm... taken out of context. I have researched this quote, and you can find more info from wikipedia @ here.

The full quote from Wikipedia: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

It is regarding those who do not pay their taxes in Muslim lands.

and the following people were except from it: "Slaves, women, children, the old, the sick, monks, hermits and the poor, were all exempt from the tax, unless any of them was independent and wealthy."

and in return: "In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practice their faith, to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy, to be entitled to Muslim protection from outside aggression, to be exempted from military service and taxes levied upon Muslim citizens."

and of course, this holds true. If you look at Jews under Muslim rule (for instance in Muslim Spain, Middle East etc), they were CERTAINLY TREATED BETTER than under "Christian" Europe, in any period of history pre-1945.
If you want to refute this, bring me JUST ONE example of where this was not the case.
Billy Hill
Bikerman wrote:
You're obviously someone with a problem,


Yep. I have a serious problem. I'm not willing to give up my freedom to some 7th century barbarian who is ready to kill me, my family, himself, his family and anyone else who gets in the way, all in the name of religion.

Yep. I have a serious problem.
Billy Hill
ThePolemistis wrote:
[ "In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practice their faith, to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy, to be entitled to Muslim protection from outside aggression, to be exempted from military service and taxes levied upon Muslim citizens."


Oh, I'm sorry, what's that?

If I don't convert, you'll let me practice my own religion as long as I pay a tax?

Yeah, I'm the one with the serious problem. Very Happy
ThePolemistis
Billy Hill wrote:
ThePolemistis wrote:
[ "In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practice their faith, to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy, to be entitled to Muslim protection from outside aggression, to be exempted from military service and taxes levied upon Muslim citizens."


Oh, I'm sorry, what's that?

If I don't convert, you'll let me practice my own religion as long as I pay a tax?

Yeah, I'm the one with the serious problem. Very Happy



Of course, same in any other country. If you don't pay tax in America, you lose your freedoms. Plus, the taxes are for Muslims too. And the tax does not apply to all non-Muslims (for instance women are except). Did you even read the stuff I posted??

Plus you didn't answer the MAIN question: Tell me a time when Jews were treated better in Christian Europe, rather than in Muslim lands. Any time period before 1945.
Billy Hill
ThePolemistis wrote:
Of course, same in any other country. If you don't pay tax in America, you lose your freedoms.


Whoa... hold on there, cowboy. You're confused, or delusional.

In America, you get taxed for everything, but not based on whether or not you're Christian.

Under Islamic law, jizyah is a tax levied on the state's non-Muslim citizens. Jizya is material proof of the non-Muslims' subjection in Islamic society.
Billy Hill
Bikerman wrote:
Yes I am absolutely saying that they are not changing EU law.


According to the London Times, a children’s story based on the tale of the Three Little Pigs was rejected for an award after judges became concerned that it would offend Muslims,

Hmm... nope. No laws changing because of Muslims trying to change other people's society to fit their own in EU. Nope. Rolling Eyes
Arnie
Bikerman wrote:
Christians tend to use the firearm approach to school attrocities. Here's a list of US school attrocities. I don't know how many of the shooters were Christian but, in the US, it will be a significant number, almost certainly.
Be careful not to step out of line yourself here. These people may have professed to be Christians, but you're giving the impression that there's a causal relationship with the gun use / atrocities (sic). All these shooters were humans, but that doesn't mean their humanity caused them to do this. Otherwise we'd all be like that.

The kind of statistics and numbers used in debates like this sickens me. They are so twisted that they will either scare you out of the discussion (if you see through them) or completely mislead you and get the debate off even worse.
ThePolemistis
Billy Hill wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
Yes I am absolutely saying that they are not changing EU law.


According to the London Times, a children’s story based on the tale of the Three Little Pigs was rejected for an award after judges became concerned that it would offend Muslims,

Hmm... nope. No laws changing because of Muslims trying to change other people's society to fit their own in EU. Nope. Rolling Eyes



hmm... what about the advertisement done by Labour party against Michael Howard/Conservatives portraying them as pigs? Michael Howard is a Jew btw,,, Labour apologised for any anti-semetism this may have caused.

Are you saying our British laws are becoming Jewish? Wake up dude,,,, get your head out of your ass and see the bloody world. Comeon,,, I know your American, but have you ever been out of your country? There IS a world outside America.
Billy Hill
ThePolemistis wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
Yes I am absolutely saying that they are not changing EU law.


According to the London Times, a children’s story based on the tale of the Three Little Pigs was rejected for an award after judges became concerned that it would offend Muslims,

Hmm... nope. No laws changing because of Muslims trying to change other people's society to fit their own in EU. Nope. Rolling Eyes



hmm... what about blah blah ef'n blah


I figured as much... Rolling Eyes

What about the link I posted saying a judge ruled against an award for a story because it might offend Muslims?
ThePolemistis
Billy Hill wrote:


I figured as much... Rolling Eyes

What about the link I posted saying a judge ruled against an award for a story because it might offend Muslims?


What about the link I just have posted here portraying Howard/Conservatives as pigs in which the Jewish community was deeply offended and sparked accusations of anti-semetism?
Bikerman
(over)
Billy Hill
Billy Hill wrote:
ThePolemistis wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
Yes I am absolutely saying that they are not changing EU law.


According to the London Times, a children’s story based on the tale of the Three Little Pigs was rejected for an award after judges became concerned that it would offend Muslims,

Hmm... nope. No laws changing because of Muslims trying to change other people's society to fit their own in EU. Nope. Rolling Eyes



hmm... what about blah blah ef'n blah


I figured as much... Rolling Eyes

What about the link I posted saying a judge ruled against an award for a story because it might offend Muslims?


ThePolemistis wrote:
:crickets:


I didn't think you'd want to say anything about it. LoLing at you while you make desperate attempts to ignore it and change the subject. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Bikerman
Arnie wrote:
Be careful not to step out of line yourself here. These people may have professed to be Christians, but you're giving the impression that there's a causal relationship with the gun use / atrocities (sic). All these shooters were humans, but that doesn't mean their humanity caused them to do this. Otherwise we'd all be like that.
I was merely trying to highlight the ridiculous position that assumes that because an attrocity is committed by person x of faith y then all people of faith y commit attrocities. I thought that was plain from the context of my comments but if it wasn't I'm happy to confirm that was my meaning.
Arnie wrote:
The kind of statistics and numbers used in debates like this sickens me. They are so twisted that they will either scare you out of the discussion (if you see through them) or completely mislead you and get the debate off even worse.

Which is why I have opted out of this debate. I tried to provide rational points but there is not point in doing so when someone has adopted a mental zeitgeist that could be fairly described as paranoid/delusional. There is nothing you can present in the way of logic or evidence that will shift such a person from their delusional state and they will always find another way to support their delusion (after, of course, either ignoring or distorting the logical point that you have made).
Note the way, for example, that my specific statement about EU laws not being changed by Muslims is turned around into a story about a competition that rejected an entry for a story - as if this had anything at all to do with EU laws (it didn't). If he had actually read the story rather than the headline he would have seen that the entry in question was rejected for a variety of reasons, not simple potential offence to muslims. That, however, would not fit the delusion and must be rejected. The fact that non of this has anything to do with the law in the UK (let alone EU law) is also at odds with the delusion and must also be rejected.

As I say - there is no point debating such a person as their point of view is fixed and impervious to logic/reason - a classic example of a bigot.

*The only EU laws that apply to religion are the laws enshrining the right to religious freedom of worship and belief which is actually covered under the Human Rights legislation.
Billy Hill
Chris, that was but one example of many many many examples. As you're aware, finding a law titled "new laws to prevent insulting muslims" will be tough to find. But have a look at some of this.

Quote:
May 25, 2005 an Italian judge, Armando Grasso, in city of Bergamo, ordered the best-selling writer and journalist Oriana Fallaci to stand trial in her native Italy on charges she defamed Islam in her book “La Forza della Ragione” (The Force of Reason)


Quote:
A Danish district court in Herning has interpreted the phrase “dissemination to wide circle of people” to include an e-mail listserv of 47 people and convicted a member of the Danish People’s Party for distributing an e-mail that contained degrading and insulting statements about Muslims.


Quote:
Muslims are therefore very right to vigorously condemn the publication of the cartoons and to seek to punish the editors through the criminal law process.


Quote:
The 3rd Council of Europe summit has for the first time mentioned "Islamophobia" in the 9th paragraph of the Warsaw Declaration that was accepted on Tuesday, May 17. The Council has reached the following decisions regarding the issue: Condemnation of any kind of intolerance and discrimination based on gender, race and religious beliefs in particular, including Islamophobia and anti-Semitism, the fight against these within the framework of the Council of Europe and the use of effective mechanisms and rules to combat these problems.


Quote:
The Shari’a demands that we must condemn any statement that vilifies someone's religion, where the statement is made for no other purpose other than to vilify, ridicule, or foment hatred.

Muslims are therefore very right to vigorously condemn the publication of the cartoons and to seek to punish the editors through the criminal law process.


Quote:
The 3rd Council of Europe summit has for the first time mentioned "Islamophobia" in the 9th paragraph of the Warsaw Declaration that was accepted on Tuesday, May 17. The Council has reached the following decisions regarding the issue: Condemnation of any kind of intolerance and discrimination based on gender, race and religious beliefs in particular, including Islamophobia and anti-Semitism, the fight against these within the framework of the Council of Europe and the use of effective mechanisms and rules to combat these problems.

...

Anti-Islamism is not the same as anti-Semitism. Islam is a belief system, Semites are a race. We can’t equate a race to a doctrine. Racism is sheer evil. Apart from the fact that no race is better or worse than other races, unless one is Michael Jackson, one can’t change his race. Instigating hate against a race is instigating hate against mankind. Doctrines that instigate racial hate must be condemned and those who engage in racial slurs must be brought to justice.


Quote:
he United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights understands the concern in Muslim countries over the 12 cartoons of the prophet Muhammad and expects UN experts on racism to deal with the matter. At the same time as Islamic countries in a meeting in Mecca are going to discuss joint action against Denmark, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour has involved herself in the discussion.

The leader of the UN's work on human rights is saying in plain words that she is concerned over the drawings that Jyllands-Posten printed in September, expressing "apologies" for statements and actions demonstrating a lack of respect for the religion of other people. In a letter to the 56 member countries of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), she states: "I understand your concerns and would like to emphasize that I regret any statement or act that could express a lack of respect for the religion of others". In a complaint to the High Commissioner, the 56 Islamic governments have asked Louise Arbour to raise the matter with the Danish government "to help contain this encroachment on Islam, so the situation won't get out of control." Two UN experts, on religous freedom and on racism and xenophobia, are said to be working on the case. The Islamic governments have expressed satisfaction with the reply from Louise Arbour.
ThePolemistis
Billy Hill wrote:
I didn't think you'd want to say anything about it. LoLing at you while you make desperate attempts to ignore it and change the subject. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


LOLL @ YOU for thinking you have a point yet you cannot explain why Muslim treatment of Jews was x100 times better than Christian treatment of Jews in any era before 1945.
Billy Hill
ThePolemistis wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:
I didn't think you'd want to say anything about it. LoLing at you while you make desperate attempts to ignore it and change the subject. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


LOLL @ YOU for thinking you have a point yet you cannot explain why Muslim treatment of Jews was x100 times better than Christian treatment of Jews in any era before 1945.


Are you doing a history report? Come out of the past, friend! Live in the present! That's part of the problem with many of these RIMs, they're still living by an old and cruel interpretation of the Quran!
ThePolemistis
Billy Hill wrote:
ThePolemistis wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:
I didn't think you'd want to say anything about it. LoLing at you while you make desperate attempts to ignore it and change the subject. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


LOLL @ YOU for thinking you have a point yet you cannot explain why Muslim treatment of Jews was x100 times better than Christian treatment of Jews in any era before 1945.


Are you doing a history report? Come out of the past, friend! Live in the present! That's part of the problem with many of these RIMs, they're still living by an old and cruel interpretation of the Quran!


LOL... when Muslims were treating Jews like Gods compared to how Christians treated Jews, it was the same Quran they ewre following then, and they are following now.

The peak of hate (of them against us) was when the Muslims had to pay for what was a European crime - and I am referring to the holocaust. The initial hate however started in 1917, with the Balfour declaration, and then the sykes-picot agreement in which the British betrayed the Arabs.
Billy Hill
ThePolemistis wrote:

LOL... when Muslims were treating Jews like Gods compared to how Christians treated Jews, it was the same Quran they ewre following then, and they are following now.


Yes, and since then the moral values of the rest of the world have grown and become more compassionate. Not so with many Muslims.

Quote:

The peak of hate (of them against us) was when the Muslims had to pay for what was a European crime - and I am referring to the holocaust. The initial hate however started in 1917, with the Balfour declaration, and then the sykes-picot agreement in which the British betrayed the Arabs.


I won't argue that point because I'm not as concerned with what happened in the past. All religions had bad history. Some grew out of their evil ways. Others have not.
ThePolemistis
Billy Hill wrote:
ThePolemistis wrote:

LOL... when Muslims were treating Jews like Gods compared to how Christians treated Jews, it was the same Quran they ewre following then, and they are following now.


Yes, and since then the moral values of the rest of the world has grown up. Not so with many Muslims.



Moral values? Are you telling me America did not rape vietnamese, enslave blacks and rape/humilitate innocent Iraqis? Guantanamo Bay is a symbol of American moral values isn't it?
What era are you talking about?

Billy Hill wrote:

I won't argue that point because I'm not as concerned with what happened in the past. All religions had bad history. Some grew out of their evil ways. Others have not.


Did Christianity grow out of their evil ways, or was the religion itself thrown out of Europe?
and George Habas was a Christian.
Billy Hill
ThePolemistis wrote:

Moral values? Are you telling me America did not rape vietnamese, enslave blacks and rape/humilitate innocent Iraqis? Guantanamo Bay is a symbol of American moral values isn't it?
What era are you talking about?


No, I'm telling you that Islamic Muslims are immoral. Still.

I'm telling you that Christians no longer believe it's OK to kill people that don't convert to Christianity. In Europe AND the US. Muslims still interpret the Quran and believe it's ok to kill for it. To kill women and children for it.

Islamic Muslims often do.
Arnie
Don't you think that's just a little bit overgeneralized? There are (people calling themselves) Muslims that wouldn't do that and (p.c.t.) Christians that would. How many of both is discussable. On the other hand some people treat Muslims as a group you cannot criticize at all, portraying everyone who breaks the silence as a racist with non-arguments etc.

But the danger of such statements as you are making is that when some violent sect arises, calling themselves Christians, you will be shown wrong and lose all credibility. I also have a harsh opinion on people such as the guy in your signature, but your arguments have to be proper. Not politically correct, but just proper.

@Bikerman: the things I said in my previous post were also directed at you. I agree with your highlight as you just explained, but you presented it as if that 'ridiculous position' is correct and also applies to Christians. I guess it's the same story as the first paragraph of this post.
Billy Hill
Arnie wrote:
Don't you think that's just a little bit overgeneralized? There are (people calling themselves) Muslims that wouldn't do that and (p.c.t.) Christians that would. How many of both is discussable.


That's my point. Christians don't condone that kind of behavior. (Christian leaders, that is). Muslims DO. And have!

news.com.au wrote:
A MUSLIM leader has told his students that it is "obligatory" for all Muslims to engage in jihad if an Islamic country is under attack, even if it means killing the enemy's children.
ThePolemistis
Billy Hill wrote:
ThePolemistis wrote:

Moral values? Are you telling me America did not rape vietnamese, enslave blacks and rape/humilitate innocent Iraqis? Guantanamo Bay is a symbol of American moral values isn't it?
What era are you talking about?


No, I'm telling you that Islamic Muslims are immoral. Still.

I'm telling you that Christians no longer believe it's OK to kill people that don't convert to Christianity. In Europe AND the US. Muslims still interpret the Quran and believe it's ok to kill for it. To kill women and children for it.

Islamic Muslims often do.


Maybe because it has nothing to do with religion. You are referring the term Christians exclusively for Europeans. But there are Christians in Africa raping African women as we speak.

The reason is because of oppression. Britain fawked the entire middle East. We drew their broders, without ever considering different tribes, much like we did to Africa. We took away their lands, broke old countries, and formed new ones. We have installed a puppet regime from one stretch of the middle East right to the other. It is only natural they will feel angry I'm not saying it is right, but it's human .
Arnie
Quote:
But there are Christians in Africa raping African women as we speak.
Probably referring to the LRA. I warned BH about that exactly one post ago, although the LRA's beliefs are a Bible-animism mix.

Well, enough for me in this topic already. This is starting to look like an epic debate with good old Ranfaroth, and I sure learned my lesson since then.
Bikerman
Arnie wrote:
@Bikerman: the things I said in my previous post were also directed at you. I agree with your highlight as you just explained, but you presented it as if that 'ridiculous position' is correct and also applies to Christians. I guess it's the same story as the first paragraph of this post.

I certainly did not present 'it' as if any 'ridiculous position' was/is correct. I do not make generalisations about Muslims/Christians/Jews or any other creed or race. I occasionally make specific points about specific beliefs or actions, but that is an entirely different matter.
Are you seriously telling me that this statement
bikerman wrote:
Christians tend to use the firearm approach to school attrocities.
does not at all strike you as ironic? If not then all I can suggest is that you read back through the thread again and consider my contributions in context. What you think I said is your concern. What I actually said, in context, is quite different. If you can't spot irony then I'm afraid that is not really my problem.*

*I suggest you google on 'socratic irony'.

PS On reflection my use of 'Socratic irony' is incorrect. As has been pointed out my use of irony was not in the Socratic tradition in this case, and I therefore withdraw the criticism/comment.
liljp617
Billy Hill wrote:
ThePolemistis wrote:

LOL... when Muslims were treating Jews like Gods compared to how Christians treated Jews, it was the same Quran they ewre following then, and they are following now.


Yes, and since then the moral values of the rest of the world have grown and become more compassionate. Not so with many Muslims.

-.- You called me ignorant. If you think the majority of the world is moral or carries out good morals, you've once again proven your very naive or simply narrow minded. Other groups attempt to hide their immoral activity...radical Muslims don't.
HalfBloodPrince
Hm..before you go on, I just want to tell you something, or rather ask it. Do you think all Muslims are like those you see on TV? I myself am Muslim. Modern, at that. I don't have a 2-foot long beard coming down to my chest. I, like any person, listen to music, have an iPod, enjoy movies, go on Facebook, play my 360, manage my own site, etc. I'm male and I have one older brother. My parents are moderately religious people. We pray 5 times a day, have read the Quran, etc...my mother doesn't cover her head and I'm sure that if she had a daughter she wouldn't make her either.

All/most of my Muslim friends about match that description. I have many many Christian friends, too.

Do we sound like the people you hear about on the news?
liljp617
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
Hm..before you go on, I just want to tell you something, or rather ask it. Do you think all Muslims are like those you see on TV? I myself am Muslim. Modern, at that. I don't have a 2-foot long beard coming down to my chest. I, like any person, listen to music, have an iPod, enjoy movies, go on Facebook, play my 360, manage my own site, etc. I'm male and I have one older brother. My parents are moderately religious people. We pray 5 times a day, have read the Quran, etc...my mother doesn't cover her head and I'm sure that if she had a daughter she wouldn't make her either.

All/most of my Muslim friends about match that description. I have many many Christian friends, too.

Do we sound like the people you hear about on the news?

Prepare to get an answer you won't like from him. I think he's made it quite clear in this and other threads that he puts Muslims like yourself in the same category as those carrying out these atrocious acts. Could be wrong though...maybe he's not the xenophobic, bigot he's made himself out to be.
Billy Hill
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
Hm..before you go on, I just want to tell you something, or rather ask it. Do you think all Muslims are like those you see on TV?


I've answered that question many many times.

Quote:
Do we sound like the people you hear about on the news?


Do you condone the actions of the people I hear about on the news? That will answer your question.

And a simple yes or no please. I don't care why.
HalfBloodPrince
Billy Hill wrote:
I've answered that question many many times.

Then answer it again.

Quote:
Do you condone the actions of the people I hear about on the news? That will answer your question.

No, I most certainly don't condone their actions. I condemn them.

Quote:
And a simple yes or no please. I don't care why.

This just shows how much thought you give, and want, to your arguments. Or argument in the singular I should say, since you're always going on about the same thing.
Billy Hill
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:
I've answered that question many many times.

Then answer it again.


ROTFLMAO!!!

Quote:
Quote:
Do you condone the actions of the people I hear about on the news? That will answer your question.

No, I most certainly don't condone their actions. I condemn them.


As well you should! They're uneducated, unethical, unmoral, uncivilized barbarians that should be exterminated like cockroaches.

Quote:
Quote:
And a simple yes or no please. I don't care why.

This just shows how much thought you give, and want, to your arguments. Or argument in the singular I should say, since you're always going on about the same thing.


Honestly, I could give a rat's ass why you feel the way you do. That's not relevant and wouldn't change anything anyway.
HalfBloodPrince
On the contrary, why somebody thinks the way they do about something makes quite the difference.

If someone is scared of flying, and asked why, well that can make quite a difference. "I think the plane might crash" as opposed to "the sky scares me because it's blue and not purple"
Billy Hill
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
On the contrary, why somebody thinks the way they do about something makes quite the difference.


Let me give you another scenario, friend;

A very large group of people, lets say 10's of thousands, or more likely 100's of thousands or millions, have been taught, from birth, to hate anyone who does not follow their religious belief. They are taught to hate to the point of being willing to take their own life while attempting the destruction of innocent people.

Now, these hundreds of thousands or millions of highly intolerant people who have been taught from birth to hate, are roaming the world in these small groups killing people in markets, homes and schools.

Do you think those dead people give a rat's ass WHY those people are killing them?

I can see it now...
Quote:
OMG!! Johnny, there's a lady over there with a bomb strapped to her chest yelling "praise be to allah"!, Grab your little sister and RUN for safety while I go talk to her to find out why she's going to blow herself up at the mall


Rolling Eyes
ThePolemistis
Billy Hill wrote:

A very large group of people, lets say 10's of thousands, or more likely 100's of thousands or millions, have been taught, from birth, to hate anyone who does not follow their religious belief. They are taught to hate to the point of being willing to take their own life while attempting the destruction of innocent people.


LOLLL @ YOU !!!

Firstly, The Palestinian who headed the PFLP, George Habash was Christian.
The Christians in Palestine are also resisting the RACIST Israeli oppression and ILLEGAL occupation of their land.

Secondly, Hizbollah is supported by both Msulims and Christians because Hizbollah saved Lebanon from Israeli/Zionist occupation.


AMERICA HAVE SUPPORTED VIRTUALLY EVERY TERRORIST ORGANISATION ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH!!! TO BAD FOR AMERICA, THAT THESE ORGANISATIONS TURN THEIR BACKS ON THE VERY PEOPLE WHO FINANCE THEM.!
Billy Hill
ThePolemistis wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:

A very large group of people, lets say 10's of thousands, or more likely 100's of thousands or millions, have been taught, from birth, to hate anyone who does not follow their religious belief. They are taught to hate to the point of being willing to take their own life while attempting the destruction of innocent people.


LOLLL @ YOU !!!

Firstly, The Palestinian who headed the PFLP, George Habash was Christian.
The Christians in Palestine are also resisting the RACIST Israeli oppression and ILLEGAL occupation of their land.

Secondly, Hizbollah is supported by both Msulims and Christians because Hizbollah saved Lebanon from Israeli/Zionist occupation.


AMERICA HAVE SUPPORTED VIRTUALLY EVERY TERRORIST ORGANISATION ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH!!! TO BAD FOR AMERICA, THAT THESE ORGANISATIONS TURN THEIR BACKS ON THE VERY PEOPLE WHO FINANCE THEM.!


I'm still waiting for someone to show me where Christians are blowing themselves and their children up at schools, malls and homes in the name of Jesus...

Praise be to Allah!! BOOM!!!!
ThePolemistis
Billy Hill wrote:

I'm still waiting for someone to show me where Christians are blowing themselves and their children up at schools, malls and homes in the name of Jesus...

Praise be to Allah!! BOOM!!!!


Why not ask where Christians are commiting violence in the name of Jesus Christ??...
so... 13th Century, Christians burnt down Jews IN A CHURCH in the city of York, England.
Under Tsars in Russia, commanded to kill all the Jews.
Fedinand and Isabelle forcing Jews/Muslims out of Spain, convert or DIE after Spain reverts to Christendom.
Nazis (Christians) GASSING Jews in Extermination camps along with the Romani people and others, and the churches of Germany saying nothing.
In frankfurt, circa 1400, people (christians) started to kill the Jews.
The crusades against the Palestinians, in which the Christian armies sent their children to fight (less than 18 years of age) for Jerusalem. The children did not even make it to Jerusalem, most nicked by pirates. Also armies including The poor fellow soldiers of Jesus christ and the temple of soloman (the templars).
More recent examples of ETA and IRA. IRA commited terrorist attacks on British soil, including the bombing of malls (manchester), brighton and even downing street.

and I aint even finished Europe yet, and still I have a lot of Africa to talk about.

should I talk about the Jews?
Soloman Morel who was personally responsible for th deaths of thousand of German soldiers. And a man Israel refuses to extradite.
The kunouchy massacre in whcih Jewish extremists and Russian partisans in 1942 slaughtered "men, women and children in cold blood" in poland.
Ben Gurion terrorist attack in the st davids hotel killing over 40 arabs, 17 Jews and 28 British officials.
Goldstein, a doctor fanatic, who opened fire and killed 28 Muslims in a mosque.
and gaian there is so much more.
Billy Hill
ThePolemistis wrote:


Why not ask where Christians are commiting violence in the name of Jesus Christ??.


Why not? Just do it in another thread. Wink

Quote:
should I talk about the Jews?


There are multiple threads on that topic already, but if you feel inclined to start another, by all means.

But for now, at least in this thread, lets talk about how stupid one must be to actually (and literally) strap a bomb to their chest (or their 15 year old kid's chest) and send them off to the mall or to a school to kill people.
PMK-Bear
I don't think there's a quantifiable amount of stupidity, although you've got to admit it's even more stupid to claim you can prevent someone from doing it by first brutalizing their relatives and then paying his explosives from your pocket.
Billy Hill
PMK-Bear wrote:
I don't think there's a quantifiable amount of stupidity, athough you've got to admit it's even more stupid to claim you can end that practice by brutalizing their relatives.


Agreed. The only way to stop it is extermination.
PMK-Bear
I was going to say laicism, education, and welfare states; mainly because to most of mankind reenacting nazism is not an option. But then, you're free to pursue whatever you think is right.
ThePolemistis
Billy Hill wrote:

But for now, at least in this thread, lets talk about how stupid one must be to actually (and literally) strap a bomb to their chest (or their 15 year old kid's chest) and send them off to the mall or to a school to kill people.


Of course it is very stupid. No one is saying it is not.
What's your point?
liljp617
Billy Hill wrote:
PMK-Bear wrote:
I don't think there's a quantifiable amount of stupidity, athough you've got to admit it's even more stupid to claim you can end that practice by brutalizing their relatives.


Agreed. The only way to stop it is extermination.

Or leave them the ****** alone.....for once? They don't hate the western world for fun or just because we have different ideas of life. They hate us cause we constantly interfere with their business, attempt to tell them what to do, destroy any bit of societal progression they're capable of, constantly have troops stationed in THEIR HOLY LAND, etc. etc.

And it's been like that since the dawn of these regions.

I don't know about you, but based on my experiences with history, there is no defeating an ideology of this sort through ethnic cleansing. And you sure as hell can't slaughter your way to security or victory over an ideology this strong which is so deeply integrated with types of brainwashing and religious beliefs. It's not a feasible strategy for such a task....and history is very much supportive of this.
ibay
This guy "Billy Hill" has too much poison in his mind. These are the kind of people who have negative mindset from birth or they acquire it due to harsh upbringing or other unpleasant circumstances in life(study Hitler's or any other tyrant's life). These people don't know that by spreading hate and poison against people of certain religion race or country, they themselves become bigger evils than the evils of those who they are trying to expose. It is impossible to bring sense into their minds so it is useless to argue with them.
If it was not Islam on their mind today, it could have been Jews, christians, hindus or anyone.
BEWARE OF ENEMIES OF HUMANITY.
HalfBloodPrince
Some people you just can't change. Better to give up. Give him a few days (or hours?) and we'll have a fresh, brand new thread bashing Islam by Billy Hill!

The guy doesn't even know the name of what religion Muslims follow. He thinks "Islamic Muslim" means terrorist..
paul_indo
liljp617 wrote:
They don't hate the western world for fun or just because we have different ideas of life. They hate us cause we constantly interfere with their business, attempt to tell them what to do, destroy any bit of societal progression they're capable of, constantly have troops stationed in THEIR HOLY LAND, etc. etc.


I am not so sure about that.

I live in an a majority islamic country and from what I see I think they hate the west because it is successful and all the islamic countries are not.

Some will argue about how rich Saudi is and places like that. True, they are rich, but they are not successful.

The cars they drive, the TV's they watch, the radios they listen to, the computers the telephones the aeroplanes etc, etc, etc even the guns and bombs they use....... they all come from the west.

This, I believe, makes many of the radical muslims feel like their religion looks like a failure, as their countries have failed to keep up with the west and produce bu**er all except oil, so they hate us (westerners) for making it look that way.
liljp617
paul_indo wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
They don't hate the western world for fun or just because we have different ideas of life. They hate us cause we constantly interfere with their business, attempt to tell them what to do, destroy any bit of societal progression they're capable of, constantly have troops stationed in THEIR HOLY LAND, etc. etc.


I am not so sure about that.

I live in an a majority islamic country and from what I see I think they hate the west because it is successful and all the islamic countries are not.

Some will argue about how rich Saudi is and places like that. True, they are rich, but they are not successful.

The cars they drive, the TV's they watch, the radios they listen to, the computers the telephones the aeroplanes etc, etc, etc even the guns and bombs they use....... they all come from the west.

This, I believe, makes many of the radical muslims feel like their religion looks like a failure, as their countries have failed to keep up with the west and produce bu**er all except oil, so they hate us (westerners) for making it look that way.

By looking back in history, one can see that the western world (I'm not talking solely about the US) has always interfered with the Middle East. Much of what the western world has done has kept the Middle East from progressing. They have a right to be angry. Obviously I'm not justifying the way they handle/exhibit this anger, but like I said, they don't have this ingrained hate for no particular reason.
Soulfire
I wouldn't say stupid.

It's perception -- America has done pretty shitty things in the past, and why would these people not want revenge?
Billy Hill
Soulfire wrote:
I wouldn't say stupid.

It's perception -- America has done pretty shitty things in the past, and why would these people not want revenge?


Revenge? Shocked
PMK-Bear
Yeah, as in 'you killed 3000+ of our innocent men and women, and we kill half a million of yours', or 'you insulted my dad, you and your government are dead' revenge.
Billy Hill
PMK-Bear wrote:
we kill half a million of yours',


LMAO!!! Laughing

The majority of deaths are Muslims killing Muslims in schools, mosques, malls etc, .

Laughing Laughing

Nice try, though! Wink
Billy Hill
Billy Hill wrote:

The majority of deaths are Muslims killing Muslims in schools, mosques, malls etc,


This is what happened in the last two days alone...

Quote:
1/30/2008 Philippines Zamboanga 1 1 A woman is killed, and another injured, following an ambush by Moro Islamic terrorists.
1/30/2008 Thailand Yala 2 0 Two men, ages 32 and 52, are shot to death by Muslim militants in separate attacks.
1/30/2008 Pakistan NWFP 13 0 The bodies of thirteen soldiers taken hostage several days earlier by religious extremists are discovered.
1/29/2008 Iraq Baghdad 2 5 Two women are killed at a checkpoint by a female suicide bomber.
1/29/2008 Afghanistan Kandahar 3 5 Taliban militants kill three civilians in two separate landmine attacks.
1/29/2008 Iraq Duluiya 3 2 Three schoolgirls are killed in a Jihad bombing as they are walking to school.
1/29/2008 Iraq Muqdadiyah 19 0 Nine complete bodies and ten severed heads are discovered - suspected to be al-Qaeda victims.
1/29/2008 Pakistan Razmak 3 4 Three local soldiers are killed in an ambush by Islamic militants.
1/29/2008 Algeria Thenia 4 20 At least four people are killed in a suicide attack by Islamic radicals.


That's just two days!
PMK-Bear
All of which would have indeed happened anyway since we all know that and it can't be false... right? Or is there any sort of basis for that?

You people have been pushing suspension of disbelief for, at the very least, 3 more years than you should have.

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Gah, I'm done. I'm retiring from frih's world news until either you have a schizo crisis when facing reality or you get yourself formally banned again.
liljp617
Billy Hill wrote:
Soulfire wrote:
I wouldn't say stupid.

It's perception -- America has done pretty shitty things in the past, and why would these people not want revenge?


Revenge? Shocked

Have you read a history book before?
thejam
most radical religious groups are stupid from my opinion, however problem is; The ones who are not stupid, but still radical religious, could be pretty dangerous. And it doesnt matter if your Christian, Muslim, or Jew.
Billy Hill
PMK-Bear wrote:
All of which would have indeed happened anyway since we all know that and it can't be false... right? Or is there any sort of basis for that?

You people have been pushing suspension of disbelief for, at the very least, 3 more years than you should have.

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Gah, I'm done. I'm retiring from frih's world news until either you have a schizo crisis when facing reality or you get yourself formally banned again.


You, as a muslim, insinuated that we, as Americans, "murdered" half a million of "your" people. I simply pointed out to you that it is YOU, as muslims, who are killing more muslims.

Seems every other word out of your mouth is "you people"

Truth hurts, don't it? Wink
HalfBloodPrince
Okay.

Christian kills Christian. Bad luck.

Jew kills Jew. Bad luck.

Hindu kills Hindu. Bad luck.

Muslim kills Muslim. THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY!!! ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF TERROR! MUSLIMS MUST DIE!!!! THE WORLD IS AT AN END!!
Billy Hill
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
Okay.

Christian kills Christian. Bad luck.

Jew kills Jew. Bad luck.

Hindu kills Hindu. Bad luck.

Muslim kills Muslim. THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY!!! ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF TERROR! MUSLIMS MUST DIE!!!! THE WORLD IS AT AN END!!


Talk about a drama queen. (Figure of speech only, nothing personal.)

Keep it in context, HBP.

Mr. "you don't ****** with muslims. you don't" over here tried to claim the US killed half a million muslims since 9/11, and I simply pointed out that it was not the US that killed the half a million muslims, it was other muslims.

So settle down.
Bryan_Bezzle
Are radical Muslims stupid? No, just sometimes misguided or mislead. Are radical enviromentalists stupid? No, just sometimes misguided or mislead. If I became radical in a series of thoughts would that make me stupid? Nah..just radical.
liljp617
Billy Hill wrote:
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
Okay.

Christian kills Christian. Bad luck.

Jew kills Jew. Bad luck.

Hindu kills Hindu. Bad luck.

Muslim kills Muslim. THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY!!! ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF TERROR! MUSLIMS MUST DIE!!!! THE WORLD IS AT AN END!!


Talk about a drama queen. (Figure of speech only, nothing personal.)

Keep it in context, HBP.

Mr. "you don't ****** with muslims. you don't" over here tried to claim the US killed half a million muslims since 9/11, and I simply pointed out that it was not the US that killed the half a million muslims, it was other muslims.

So settle down.

lol you don't think we've killed a large number of innocent people...either directly or indirectly? It's all Muslims right? =) Do some research for me.
thebattler36
i do not believe that radical muslims are stupid, just as i dont believe that crusaders (basically radical christians) they went to the "holy land" and killed arabs, they went to another country and killed others, similar to these "radical muslims" today, the majority of muslims follow their holy book closely, the "radical muslims" have been denounced by other strongly religious muslims as they do not follow their holy book (with similar commandments as the bible, worded differentely of course) as their book denounces violence and killing.

As an atheist i can see little difference between the many religions (except buddhism) they all have a holy book, most believe in one all powerful god, most have a number of commandments basically listing the same thing and most have a prophet.
smarter
liljp617 wrote:
paul_indo wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
They don't hate the western world for fun or just because we have different ideas of life. They hate us cause we constantly interfere with their business, attempt to tell them what to do, destroy any bit of societal progression they're capable of, constantly have troops stationed in THEIR HOLY LAND, etc. etc.


I am not so sure about that.

I live in an a majority islamic country and from what I see I think they hate the west because it is successful and all the islamic countries are not.

Some will argue about how rich Saudi is and places like that. True, they are rich, but they are not successful.

The cars they drive, the TV's they watch, the radios they listen to, the computers the telephones the aeroplanes etc, etc, etc even the guns and bombs they use....... they all come from the west.

This, I believe, makes many of the radical muslims feel like their religion looks like a failure, as their countries have failed to keep up with the west and produce bu**er all except oil, so they hate us (westerners) for making it look that way.

By looking back in history, one can see that the western world (I'm not talking solely about the US) has always interfered with the Middle East. Much of what the western world has done has kept the Middle East from progressing. They have a right to be angry. Obviously I'm not justifying the way they handle/exhibit this anger, but like I said, they don't have this ingrained hate for no particular reason.


@paul_indo
I guess it's more like "2 Americans have 10 rooms and we 10 people stay in 2 rooms". Arrogance and prosperity vs poverty and overcrowding.

@liljp617
1. Let's suppose my government really hurt some people. Are those people okayed to "hate" me, an ordinary citizen?
2. For me, this hate is the result of indoctrination and brainwashing helped by American arrogance.
3. NOTHING can justify this kind of hate!
Bikerman
I agree that this kind of hate is wrong, but it's not all one-way traffic. The picture of the US as an arrogant but basically blameless victim of brainwashed radicals is comforting but not really true.
Firstly, there are genuine grievances. If your family is killed by US troops or US supplied munitions in Palestine, Iraq or Aghanistan, then it's difficult not to hate US citizens in general. I agree that this is not entirely rational, but since when have people been entirely rational?
Secondly, there are plenty of US citizens who display the same sort of irrational hatred. Some of these citizens are even in positions of relative power.
Check out the 'US Taliban', for example:
http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/Culture_War/The_American_Taliban.html
liljp617
smarter wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
paul_indo wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
They don't hate the western world for fun or just because we have different ideas of life. They hate us cause we constantly interfere with their business, attempt to tell them what to do, destroy any bit of societal progression they're capable of, constantly have troops stationed in THEIR HOLY LAND, etc. etc.


I am not so sure about that.

I live in an a majority islamic country and from what I see I think they hate the west because it is successful and all the islamic countries are not.

Some will argue about how rich Saudi is and places like that. True, they are rich, but they are not successful.

The cars they drive, the TV's they watch, the radios they listen to, the computers the telephones the aeroplanes etc, etc, etc even the guns and bombs they use....... they all come from the west.

This, I believe, makes many of the radical muslims feel like their religion looks like a failure, as their countries have failed to keep up with the west and produce bu**er all except oil, so they hate us (westerners) for making it look that way.

By looking back in history, one can see that the western world (I'm not talking solely about the US) has always interfered with the Middle East. Much of what the western world has done has kept the Middle East from progressing. They have a right to be angry. Obviously I'm not justifying the way they handle/exhibit this anger, but like I said, they don't have this ingrained hate for no particular reason.

@liljp617
1. Let's suppose my government really hurt some people. Are those people okayed to "hate" me, an ordinary citizen?
2. For me, this hate is the result of indoctrination and brainwashing helped by American arrogance.
3. NOTHING can justify this kind of hate!

1. We don't have to suppose...all we must do is look at the history books.
2. You're very right that they often use indoctrination. Their hate is there for a reason, however. My point was that they didn't wake up one day and just decide to hold this aggression towards us. It was indirectly brought upon us by our own actions.
3. There is justification for hate. But there isn't justification for their handling of that anger and hate. And I never tried to justify their actions or methods of exemplifying this hate. I've simply stated that they have reasons for this hate towards the western world (quite good ones at that). Unfortunately, our governments are often too closed minded or jump to the conclusion that "all Muslims are evil" before they can recognize that this hate derives from our constant invasions into their holy land, stationing troops there because "we can," corrupting their countries for our own benefits, etc. etc.

I will never defend their actions on 9/11, or any of the other attacks in Europe. I will never attempt to defend/justify their actions of killing innocent people (men, women, and children). I will never justify their tactics that constantly endanger innocent civilians. So on and so forth.

But I will not condemn them for defending their own countries, their own holy land, their own ways of life simply because I think the western culture/way of life is superior. I will not condemn someone for acting with aggression in response to the strongest military in the world invading their country without any real reason other than "we're superior."

What I'm getting at, is this is a two way road. The western world, dating back centuries, is as responsible for this as radical Muslims. I refuse to see my country (or any of the western world) as innocent in all of this (this thinking is what got us into this mess in the first place). Radical Islam is nothing more than blowback from the western world's endeavors into the Middle East. We can take responsibility for that and attempt to solve the situation, or we can view the whole region as a bunch of women/baby killers and attempt to eradicate the world of them. Personally, I prefer the first option.
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