Like the discussion about the global warming, I think that this one is adequate as well. The difference in here is that I know sources that support the "odd" idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_reappraisal
and
http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/kmforeword.htm
While I haven't actually seen any serious and systematized article about the global warming criticism (please show me one if you have, with one rule: it can't come from a source connected to Bush or the republican party.)
There is also a documentary with about 2h of duration explaining ten reasons AIDS is a hoax, I don't remember the link right now but these pdfs may be connected to it:
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/aids2.pdf
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/aids.pdf
What do you think? It's complete Garbage. There are a some dissident scientist who have supported this 'theory' but most have changed their mind over time and there are little more than a handful left.
Hi,
I'm not for the dissident theory. I don't believe AIDS is a hoax. That may of course be because I'm a scientist (or better said: a student in sciences 
) but nevertheless ... I believe the medical world has enough proof to say that HIV is indeed the cause of AIDS.
I do believe there is some disconsent about the origin of HIV. Some believe it's 'manufactured' by man, some (and I think the majority) believe it's a virus that somehow (and I don't think I need to make a drawing to explain how 
) made it's way onto humans. (I believe it's believed to come from apes).
But if it should turn out to be true that it's manufactured by man, I don't think that it was done intentionally. Man isn't (and now I may insult many scientist, including myself) smart enough or capable to make such a virus. The virus itself is just genious. What to do, to stop the human body from killing you (from the point of view of the virus)? Just copy your genetic code in that of a human cell so that it starts producing the virus itself. Come on, that's kind of brilliant, in a sick way yes, but brilliant none the less? I do believe in AIDs, and I believe that it is a very serious disease. However, I do not believe in Global Warming. The world has been around for billions of years, so do you serious think that we can make all of these conclusions and assumptions off of about 100 years of data? That's a second to the world. Our data actually shows that the earth was warmer than it is now in the 1930's, and after that the world began to cool down and people were paranoid over "global cooling." When the world began to follow the trend and heat back up, which is now, people began to become paranoid over "global warming." I'm not saying that global warming doesn't exist, there's simply not enough evidence. It's merely a political issue that people bring up to either get votes, or get money. Many scientists don't seriously believe in it, they just keep bringing it up because it's profitable. There are certain funds and rewards out there that I've heard of that say things like, "Find a way to get CO2 out of the air and we'll give you a one million dollar reward!" It's mainly for money. However, I'm not saying that humans aren't destroying the environment. We are harming it, and I believe that we need to stop the destruction of the environment and start setting up more national, or global, parks throughout the world. There are certain problems with the environment, I just don't believe that global warming is one of them.
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: |
| I do believe in AIDs, and I believe that it is a very serious disease. However, I do not believe in Global Warming. The world has been around for billions of years, so do you serious think that we can make all of these conclusions and assumptions off of about 100 years of data? That's a second to the world. Our data actually shows that the earth was warmer than it is now in the 1930's, and after that the world began to cool down and people were paranoid over "global cooling." When the world began to follow the trend and heat back up, which is now, people began to become paranoid over "global warming." I'm not saying that global warming doesn't exist, there's simply not enough evidence. It's merely a political issue that people bring up to either get votes, or get money. Many scientists don't seriously believe in it, they just keep bringing it up because it's profitable. There are certain funds and rewards out there that I've heard of that say things like, "Find a way to get CO2 out of the air and we'll give you a one million dollar reward!" It's mainly for money. However, I'm not saying that humans aren't destroying the environment. We are harming it, and I believe that we need to stop the destruction of the environment and start setting up more national, or global, parks throughout the world. There are certain problems with the environment, I just don't believe that global warming is one of them. |
Whatever your views on this are, this is the wrong thread to express them. | Bikerman wrote: |
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: | | I do believe in AIDs, and I believe that it is a very serious disease. However, I do not believe in Global Warming. The world has been around for billions of years, so do you serious think that we can make all of these conclusions and assumptions off of about 100 years of data? That's a second to the world. Our data actually shows that the earth was warmer than it is now in the 1930's, and after that the world began to cool down and people were paranoid over "global cooling." When the world began to follow the trend and heat back up, which is now, people began to become paranoid over "global warming." I'm not saying that global warming doesn't exist, there's simply not enough evidence. It's merely a political issue that people bring up to either get votes, or get money. Many scientists don't seriously believe in it, they just keep bringing it up because it's profitable. There are certain funds and rewards out there that I've heard of that say things like, "Find a way to get CO2 out of the air and we'll give you a one million dollar reward!" It's mainly for money. However, I'm not saying that humans aren't destroying the environment. We are harming it, and I believe that we need to stop the destruction of the environment and start setting up more national, or global, parks throughout the world. There are certain problems with the environment, I just don't believe that global warming is one of them. |
Whatever your views on this are, this is the wrong thread to express them. |
The original thread stated this:
While I haven't actually seen any serious and systematized article about the global warming criticism (please show me one if you have, with one rule: it can't come from a source connected to Bush or the republican party.)
I didn't have a link to any specific article, so I simply summarized what the general arguments are (from a slightly bias point-of-view).is this for real??
you telling us that there are so called scientists that "believe" aids is not real? i always thought that science is about proof and philosophy or theology about believe.
i live in west africa. over the last 3 years i was involved in a number of hiv/aids sensitisation projects. as part of our research and training we have met with aids sufferers. these people were real. they were real sick. luckily here in the gambia this curse is not as wide spread as in some other countries - not only here in africa but also in the far east and to a lesser degree in the rest of the world.
millions of people have died. even more are affected. and more and more are going to be affected because of non awareness, ignorance and no viable cure so far.
cheers
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: |
| Bikerman wrote: | | Afaceinthematrix wrote: | | I do believe in AIDs, and I believe that it is a very serious disease. However, I do not believe in Global Warming. The world has been around for billions of years, so do you serious think that we can make all of these conclusions and assumptions off of about 100 years of data? That's a second to the world. Our data actually shows that the earth was warmer than it is now in the 1930's, and after that the world began to cool down and people were paranoid over "global cooling." When the world began to follow the trend and heat back up, which is now, people began to become paranoid over "global warming." I'm not saying that global warming doesn't exist, there's simply not enough evidence. It's merely a political issue that people bring up to either get votes, or get money. Many scientists don't seriously believe in it, they just keep bringing it up because it's profitable. There are certain funds and rewards out there that I've heard of that say things like, "Find a way to get CO2 out of the air and we'll give you a one million dollar reward!" It's mainly for money. However, I'm not saying that humans aren't destroying the environment. We are harming it, and I believe that we need to stop the destruction of the environment and start setting up more national, or global, parks throughout the world. There are certain problems with the environment, I just don't believe that global warming is one of them. |
Whatever your views on this are, this is the wrong thread to express them. |
The original thread stated this:
While I haven't actually seen any serious and systematized article about the global warming criticism (please show me one if you have, with one rule: it can't come from a source connected to Bush or the republican party.) |
(My point above was quite wrong, having read the original posting again, and I retract it).
I can do better than that. I can point you to a forum 'inhabited' by proper scientists which contains discussion of all aspects of Global Warming. Try this:
http://www.sciencefile.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=ClimateChange | Bikerman wrote: |
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: | | Bikerman wrote: | | Afaceinthematrix wrote: | | I do believe in AIDs, and I believe that it is a very serious disease. However, I do not believe in Global Warming. The world has been around for billions of years, so do you serious think that we can make all of these conclusions and assumptions off of about 100 years of data? That's a second to the world. Our data actually shows that the earth was warmer than it is now in the 1930's, and after that the world began to cool down and people were paranoid over "global cooling." When the world began to follow the trend and heat back up, which is now, people began to become paranoid over "global warming." I'm not saying that global warming doesn't exist, there's simply not enough evidence. It's merely a political issue that people bring up to either get votes, or get money. Many scientists don't seriously believe in it, they just keep bringing it up because it's profitable. There are certain funds and rewards out there that I've heard of that say things like, "Find a way to get CO2 out of the air and we'll give you a one million dollar reward!" It's mainly for money. However, I'm not saying that humans aren't destroying the environment. We are harming it, and I believe that we need to stop the destruction of the environment and start setting up more national, or global, parks throughout the world. There are certain problems with the environment, I just don't believe that global warming is one of them. |
Whatever your views on this are, this is the wrong thread to express them. |
The original thread stated this:
While I haven't actually seen any serious and systematized article about the global warming criticism (please show me one if you have, with one rule: it can't come from a source connected to Bush or the republican party.) |
(My point above was quite wrong, having read the original posting again, and I retract it).
I can do better than that. I can point you to a forum 'inhabited' by proper scientists which contains discussion of all aspects of Global Warming. Try this:
http://www.sciencefile.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=ClimateChange |
Cool, thanks for the link. I didn't know any really good forums for this, but now I will check this out because I love this debate.1) The AIDS thing has to be a joke =/ Please tell me it is....
2) I guess the North Pole is melting 10x faster than expected for no reason
3) I guess Greenland's ice disappearing before our eyes every day is just a coincidence.
4) I guess sea levels rising more than naturally is just an occurrence.
5) Malaria and other diseases becoming more and more widespread due to heat variations is just happening.
6) There is no debate over whether global climate change is occurring or not. I find it extremely scary people still argue over whether or not it's even happening. There is only a debate over whether or not it's caused by man, and that debate is very much wide open...but it's extremely irrelevant. Whether it's natural or man-made, it doesn't matter. It's happening. If you want to say all of these signs are coming up just by coincidence, then I find it hard to believe you make it through the day without injuring your head every day.
I think that AIDS isn't a hoax to those who have died of this disease, those who study this disease or those who suffer with it in third world countries.
For those claiming it is a hoax there is an agenda, the luxury of blaming something for something that doesn't have a blamer. Life isn't fair, isn't clean, isn't germ free and every event doesn't have someone at fault.
Some things just are. Actually the dissidents did not deny AIDS but said that what was attributed to AIDs was not
actually aids
There is one interested aspect that I would like to bring you all to
AIDS was connected with the polio vaccine in Africa and
I must say that this does not actually say that AIDS is hoax but it sure does raise a lot of eyrbrows as to why the US is trying to suppress all the origin of AIDS information
One theory of the starting point of AIDS is that it developed from infected vaccines used in the world's first mass immunisation for polio. There are a considerable amount of grounds why this theory is reasonably sufficient to be worthy of additional investigation.
The initial known cases of AIDS came about in central Africa, in the same regions where Koprowski's polio vaccine was given to over a million people in 1957-1960
Polio vaccines are grown (cultured) on monkey kidneys which could have been contaminated by SIVs. Polio vaccines could not be screened for SIV contamination before 1985.
and many more I will give you the links
in fact this gave rise to a theory knwon in the scientific circles as oral polio vaccine (OPVA) AIDS hypothesis
| giovle wrote: |
| I do believe there is some disconsent about the origin of HIV. Some believe it's 'manufactured' by man, some (and I think the majority) believe it's a virus that somehow (and I don't think I need to make a drawing to explain how ) made it's way onto humans. (I believe it's believed to come from apes). |
HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) is believed to be a derivative of SIV (Simian Immunodeficiency Virus), originating in apes in Africa. It's believed that there were at least three independent cases of SIV transferring to humans and becoming different strains of HIV.
It seems that the link between HIV and AIDS is at the heart of this issue, not "does AIDS exist" or "does HIV exist"... and I can see the reasoning for the doubt. Virology and immunology are not areas in which I have extensive education, but I still believe that HIV and AIDS are intimately linked... though I'm not fully willing to say that HIV is THE cause of AIDS. I believe that it is a strong contributor to AIDS, but on its own, is probably not sufficient to cause full blown AIDS. AIDS, from what I've seen, is the result of a weakened immune system (due to HIV) and erosion of the weakened system by any number of other factors, leading to its ultimate collapse, and AIDS (HIV preventing the system from being able to recover).
Is that to say that HIV is the only route to AIDS? Probably not, but it's the most common.Interesting point and as a non-expert I find myself largely in agreement. One interesting question arises - are there any recorded instances of AIDS where the HIV virus is not present?
| Bikerman wrote: |
| Interesting point and as a non-expert I find myself largely in agreement. One interesting question arises - are there any recorded instances of AIDS where the HIV virus is not present? |
Yes, about fifteen years ago there was a survey done in the United States. Many people with AIDS were tested for the HIV virus and about 5% of these people were found to be HIV-negative.
Edit:
I don't remember the source, so I can't decide how legit they may have been. I will try to find several articles for this so that I can have several references.
Edit 2:
I'm getting articles saying that studies have shown that you can't get AIDS without having HIV and other articles saying the opposite. I'm not sure what is legit, so I'll research it a little more and post back here later.
Last edited by Afaceinthematrix on Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:29 pm; edited 2 times in totalOf that, I'm not certain. I haven't come across it, but, I tend to avoid human systems in my reading... they just don't interest me like other organisms and while ecosystems 
Does someone have access to medical journals and have the gumption to look it up?? I don't think any of those scientist would be willing to inject themselves with HIV if they really believe that HIV doesnt cause AIDS.
| driftingfe3s wrote: |
| I don't think any of those scientist would be willing to inject themselves with HIV if they really believe that HIV doesnt cause AIDS. |
Try reading the posts again - nobody is suggesting that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.
PS - Actually, that is wrong, there are some people claiming that HIV and AIDS are not linked, so I retract that. What I should have said was that no reputable scientists in the field are making that claim...Couple of sources about HIV free AIDS. Not got the time or knowledge to fully verify them but they seem to confirm that whilst HIV does indeed usually lead to AIDS, having AIDS does not mean that you have HIV.
http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/rrbhivneg.htm
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13718610.700-cause-unknown-for-aids-without-hiv-.html
However this source (admittledy from a biased point of view) trys to prove that HIV is the only cause of AIDS and claims that the cases of HIV-free AIDS were not really AIDS but were milder conditions.
http://www.avert.org/evidence.htm
It does seem that the definition of AIDS is that you have the HIV virus as well as one of 26-28 diseases. So that would kinda say that since our definition includes the virus, then someone who has AIDS-like symptoms and no HIV virus doesn't actually have AIDS.
David. AIDS is a hoax??? Try telling that to Freddy Mercury.
It's incredible that on any subject there are always people talking about conspiracy, disinformation and dont believe the obvious.
Of course disinformation and manipulation of the masses exists (specialy by politics like for the Irak war) but saying that a disease killing many people don't exist is really stupid.
Do they also say that flu and cold are hoaxes?
| powers1983 wrote: |
Couple of sources about HIV free AIDS. Not got the time or knowledge to fully verify them but they seem to confirm that whilst HIV does indeed usually lead to AIDS, having AIDS does not mean that you have HIV.
http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/rrbhivneg.htm
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13718610.700-cause-unknown-for-aids-without-hiv-.html
However this source (admittledy from a biased point of view) trys to prove that HIV is the only cause of AIDS and claims that the cases of HIV-free AIDS were not really AIDS but were milder conditions.
http://www.avert.org/evidence.htm
It does seem that the definition of AIDS is that you have the HIV virus as well as one of 26-28 diseases. So that would kinda say that since our definition includes the virus, then someone who has AIDS-like symptoms and no HIV virus doesn't actually have AIDS.
David. |
Interesting. Perhaps, as you say, this is simply an issue of definitions. Perhaps what we are seeing is examples of other syndromes which result in a collapse of the immune system and thus result in symptoms which are similar to HIV/AIDS. That would seem to be an entirely reasonable explanation to me (but since I'm not a virologist, immunologist or epidemiologist I stand to be corrected on this).Yeah, I think what most of the sources seem to be saying is that their are a number of immune system deficiency conditions, the most serious of which is AIDS, but that there are others that are similar that are not AIDS (although close and perhaps just as mysterious and fatal). Also, while most researchers believe that the HIV virus is one of the main causes of AIDS, it is not proven that it is not the exclusive cause.
Although a lot does depend on your definition. If you define AIDS as everything band then take out the HIV criteria then there are cases (a small numebr albeit) where people would be diagnosed as having AIDS but be HIV negative.
That does not mean that AIDS is a hoax, but that there is still alot that we don't know about the condition, its causes, and obviously its cure.
David.
Well HIV is certainly not harmless - there is enough evidence to be sure of that.
I'm not aware of thousands of non-HIV AIDS deaths - we've heard that there may be some.
I'm sure there are people who have been infected with HIV for more than a decade and have not yet fallen ill, despite having taken no anti-viral meds. That may be for genetic reasons (either their genes or the variant of the virus), lifestyle reasons or pure statistical chance. The fact is that we know for sure that about 2 million people have died after being infected with HIV and that is surely a statistically conclusive sample size.
I don't see that the failure to find a cure could be because of looking in the wrong place. Scientists will either find a cure for the HIV virus or not. If such a 'cure' doesn't stop AIDS developing then we have a problem, but up to now there is no medicinal intervention to kill HIV satisfactorily.
