Alright, so, I think that there is not a clear enough distinction made by people when it comes to the extremely broad picture of just "Islam" that we have. It is more than just "Islam."
Muslims are people who follow Islam as a peaceful religion. They are integrationists who feel that their beliefs can fit into free societies, such as the United States.
Islamists are polticially motivated totalitarian people who feel that the entire world should be under Islamic rule.
Good news is that far more Muslims are integrationists versus Islamists, but the bad news is that (due to their aggressive nature), the Islamists hold more important offices and are in power where it really counts.
So I want to make the distinction that I am all good with Islam, but I am not fine with politically motivated tyranny (aka Islamists).
Above all, I want to hear what people have to say about ... well, whether they're different, how they're different, etc.
I'm a Muslim. And the 'Islamists' who are supposedly fighting for Islam aren't fighting for Islam, they are fighting for political reasons. Just like Bush is fighting for money, not the safety of the people.
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
| I'm a Muslim. And the 'Islamists' who are supposedly fighting for Islam aren't fighting for Islam, they are fighting for political reasons. Just like Bush is fighting for money, not the safety of the people. |
I believe that is a sane conclusion, I mean, Islamists is more about a political agenda than anything.In a way, you are right soulfire, but I have a bit different opinion.
It is proved from history that the followers of prophet and the religion of GOD go astray after the prophet leaves the world (or even leaves them for some period of time as happened when Moses left his people for sena only for 40 days). It is not that they do not have enough information of truth ( as in the same example of Moses, his brother Aron as there with in the people and tried to stop them from the wrong) but that the path of Satan is attractive and people get deveived and make mistakes. The same is true with Islam. Now a days, most of the muslims beleive that they know enough and don't try to learn the roots of Islam and its teachings. The more the people know and beleive, the better they behave. Worse are the people who misinterpret the message of GOD and prophet and bring up conclusions that are completly wrong and against Islam. There are many groups, secs etc and thier they have different intensities. You can use the word Islamists for them no problem but thier act is nothing to do with Islam so even this name does not match.
Hey, First we have to understand the meanings of 'Muslimhood (Being Muslim)' and 'Islamism'. I'm Muslim and My Religion is Islam. I'm not Islamist but I'm Islamic person.
In other words; when you are Muslim your religion is Islam and you are Islamic person meaning that you behave according to QURAN and Prophet Muhammad (PABUH). The word Islamism is not Included in the QURAN and in the Sunnah (The Muhammad's (PABUH) talks), Islamist is not a common name for Muslims, and it appeared in the history of Islam as late as 1980, so you can see it's just a word refering to a group or organization.
Eventually, Islamists are persons who refer to a group like ALQAEDA. However, some governments linked all the mosques and all the Muslim individuals to ALQAEDA.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: | | I'm a Muslim. And the 'Islamists' who are supposedly fighting for Islam aren't fighting for Islam, they are fighting for political reasons. Just like Bush is fighting for money, not the safety of the people. |
I believe that is a sane conclusion, I mean, Islamists is more about a political agenda than anything. |
Non sense, utter non sense, what make you think this.. what you know about islam.. do u have muslim frenz... i m sure not.... please think before what you say. | itolerance wrote: |
| Soulfire wrote: | | HalfBloodPrince wrote: | | I'm a Muslim. And the 'Islamists' who are supposedly fighting for Islam aren't fighting for Islam, they are fighting for political reasons. Just like Bush is fighting for money, not the safety of the people. |
I believe that is a sane conclusion, I mean, Islamists is more about a political agenda than anything. |
Non sense, utter non sense, what make you think this.. what you know about islam.. do u have muslim frenz... i m sure not.... please think before what you say. |
Erm...I myself am Muslim, and I can assure you that I know more about the religion than you do. | jmlworld wrote: |
The word Islamism is not Included in the QURAN and in the Sunnah (The Muhammad's (PABUH) talks), Islamist is not a common name for Muslims, and it appeared in the history of Islam as late as 1980, so you can see it's just a word refering to a group or organization.
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Maybe because Islamist is an English word so u won't get that word in the Quran which is in Arabic.
Just my 0.02 | ThePolemistis wrote: |
| jmlworld wrote: | The word Islamism is not Included in the QURAN and in the Sunnah (The Muhammad's (PABUH) talks), Islamist is not a common name for Muslims, and it appeared in the history of Islam as late as 1980, so you can see it's just a word refering to a group or organization.
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Maybe because Islamist is an English word so u won't get that word in the Quran which is in Arabic.
Just my 0.02 |
I speak four languages including Arabic, in which I know as a major language, I couldn't find the translation of Islamism in the Quran, only there is "الاسلامي" which is meant "Islamic" which is meant something related to Islam, e.g. Islamic World...In languaes words are created when required. There is no harm in creating the word Islamism but nore important thing is the phoenomonon. Some thing that is happening around us.
Prophet said that a time will come when some people will come out and talk like prophets but act like pheroah and namrood.
I beleive that those people how are using islam for political purposes have nothing to do with islam so they are not even islamists. To give islam a bad name, many of them are not muslim at all and pretending as muslims it seems. Others may be muslim but so simple that are trapped in misunderstanding.
| Soulfire wrote: |
Muslims are people who follow Islam as a peaceful religion. They are integrationists who feel that their beliefs can fit into free societies, such as the United States.
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Intergrationists? It really confuses me there's all this hype about "Muslims must intergrate". Integrate how? First of all, that suggests that all Muslims are arabs that need to adapt to western values, when only a fifth are. There are american muslims already (converts or children of converts) and these born-in-america people don't need to integrate. b) It suggests that Muslims are so radically different, that they need to adjust. How the world are they radically different? Some think that Muslims come from a society where the shariah law regurlary chops people's hands off, stones homosexuals, and violence is encoraged against "infidels" (a mistranslation of the word "kuffar"). At the end of the day, Muslims are usually just normal people, like me and you. Maybe one might think they are radically different because they don't have sex before marriage, and don't go to pubs and drink alcohol, but this activity is personal, disturbs no-one, and you can hardly expect Muslims to give up their religion in favour of "integration". c) Cultures can be massively different, but i don't see anyone asking people from africa to integrate (i suppose one might respond by saying that muslims are being disruptive violence or similar, but this is simply making extreme cases look normal).
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Islamists are polticially motivated totalitarian people who feel that the entire world should be under Islamic rule.
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Maybe. Maybe not.
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Good news is that far more Muslims are integrationists versus Islamists, but the bad news is that (due to their aggressive nature), the Islamists hold more important offices and are in power where it really counts.
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I don't think that's true (excluding the example of saudi arabia). Many goverments or similar authority powers in muslim and arab countries aren't really interested in forcing the whole world to convert to Islam. Few are. When it comes down to, terrorists seem to be the only people who give this message. Even then, muslim terrorists are more concerned with kicking the west out of the middle east.
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So I want to make the distinction that I am all good with Islam, but I am not fine with politically motivated tyranny (aka Islamists).
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I hear ya, and i agree.
Peace. | burqe wrote: |
I beleive that those people how are using islam for political purposes have nothing to do with islam so they are not even islamists. To give islam a bad name, many of them are not muslim at all and pretending as muslims it seems. Others may be muslim but so simple that are trapped in misunderstanding. |
I agree with you completely.
Many don't realise this, but osama bin laden is a political fighter. He and his gang want to "liberate" the middle east from america and the west. They are simply using religion as an excuse, and interpreting religion as promoting their actions (so that they don't feel they are going against their religion, despite all the negativity about murder).
Peace.
may God bless you. | loyal wrote: |
| burqe wrote: |
I beleive that those people how are using islam for political purposes have nothing to do with islam so they are not even islamists. To give islam a bad name, many of them are not muslim at all and pretending as muslims it seems. Others may be muslim but so simple that are trapped in misunderstanding. |
I agree with you completely.
Many don't realise this, but osama bin laden is a political fighter. He and his gang want to "liberate" the middle east from america and the west. They are simply using religion as an excuse, and interpreting religion as promoting their actions (so that they don't feel they are going against their religion, despite all the negativity about murder). |
Come on. ^_^; Seriously, come on.
Alright, you know, you can go ahead and say that Islamism has no basis in your version of Islam. You can say that your version of Islam does not presume or even support Islamism.
But this: "I beleive that those people how are using islam for political purposes have nothing to do with islam" How can you not see how lame that statement is? ^_^; The people using X have nothing to do with X. Excuse me? ^_^;
Like it or not, Islamists have taken Islam - their version of it at least - and turned it into a political theory... a religiously-based political theory. Stop living in denial. | Quote: |
But this: "I beleive that those people how are using islam for political purposes have nothing to do with islam" How can you not see how lame that statement is? ^_^; The people using X have nothing to do with X. Excuse me? ^_^;
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Actually the author intended it more like:
The people using X as an excuse to do Y.
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Like it or not, Islamists have taken Islam - their version of it at least - and turned it into a political theory... a religiously-based political theory. |
There is more than one definition of "islamist". Define "islamist" for me.There are no "versions" of Islam. There is "Islam" and there is "not Islam".
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
| There are no "versions" of Islam. There is "Islam" and there is "not Islam". |
So Sunni, Shi'ite and Wahhabi are not versions? | Bikerman wrote: |
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: | | There are no "versions" of Islam. There is "Islam" and there is "not Islam". |
So Sunni, Shi'ite and Wahhabi are not versions? |
Versions as much as Lutheran and Presbyterian is a version of Christianity.This whole discussion about Islam vs Christianity is just stupid. There are way too many simlaritys between those too religions. Both belive in one single god. Both have the same concept about the afterlife. The main difference about the religion, is the name of the one true Prophet, Mohammed or Jesus, who cares. Neither one of them would have agreed with all that hate that comes from this dispute.
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
| I'm a Muslim. And the 'Islamists' who are supposedly fighting for Islam aren't fighting for Islam, they are fighting for political reasons. Just like Bush is fighting for money, not the safety of the people. |
This guy speaks the truth. Peaceful people exist in all facets of life. People motivated to have power over others do too unfortunately. Live and let live I say. | loyal wrote: |
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But this: "I beleive that those people how are using islam for political purposes have nothing to do with islam" How can you not see how lame that statement is? ^_^; The people using X have nothing to do with X. Excuse me? ^_^;
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Actually the author intended it more like:
The people using X as an excuse to do Y. |
Which changes what? Islam is still the source of the problem. Whether it's the direct cause for the evil or just the excuse that allows it to happen, the problem still exists, and Islam is still to blame.
| loyal wrote: |
| Quote: |
Like it or not, Islamists have taken Islam - their version of it at least - and turned it into a political theory... a religiously-based political theory. |
There is more than one definition of "islamist". Define "islamist" for me. |
More than one? How about i define the one i know, and you give me another definition in use?
An Islamist is a person that believes Islam (the religion) should be the basis for political and social policy.
A Muslim is not necessarily an Islamist. An Islamist is not necessarily a Muslim (although, you'd be hard-pressed to find a non-Muslim Islamist ^_^; ). In simple terms, someone that wants government and society to be based on the rules of the Muslim religion is an Islamist.
What other definitions are there?The results of a huge survey made by Gallup shows that indeed Islamists are politically motivated (and use religion to support their political views.)
Some interesting quotes from this article: Major survey challenges Western perceptions of Islam.
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About 93 percent of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims are moderates and only seven percent are politically radical, according to the poll, based on more than 50,000 interviews.
In majority Muslim countries, overwhelming majorities said religion was a very important part of their lives -- 99 percent in Indonesia, 98 percent in Egypt, 95 percent in Pakistan.
But only seven percent of the billion Muslims surveyed -- the radicals -- condoned the attacks on the United States in 2001, the poll showed. |
That means almost 100 million Al-Qaeda supporters! That figure worries me!
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Moderate Muslims interviewed for the poll condemned the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington because innocent lives were lost and civilians killed.
"Some actually cited religious justifications for why they were against 9/11, going as far as to quote from the Koran -- for example, the verse that says taking one innocent life is like killing all humanity," she said.
Meanwhile, radical Muslims gave political, not religious, reasons for condoning the attacks, the poll showed. |
But I agree with the conclusion:
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Gallup launched the study following 9/11, after which US President George W. Bush asked in a speech, which is quoted in the book: "Why do they hate us?"
"They hate... a democratically elected government," Bush offered as a reason.
"They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other."
But the poll, which gives ordinary Muslims a voice in the global debate that they have been drawn into by 9/11, showed that most Muslims -- including radicals -- admire the West for its democracy, freedoms and technological prowess.
What they do not want is to have Western ways forced on them, it said.
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| smarter wrote: |
| The results of a huge survey made by Gallup shows that indeed Islamists are politically motivated (and use religion to support their political views.) |
That is a misrepresentation.
No one denies that Islamists are politically motivated - it's a political movement after all.
But Islamists do not use Islam to support their political views, they base their political views on Islam. The whole Islamic political system is designed by going to the Qur'an and the hadith, picking out anything that seemed relevant to a government and/or system of laws, and then putting all that together to get Islamism.
You cannot absolve Islam of the blame for Islamism. That is patently dishonest, and - quite frankly - nonsensical. You may not agree with Islamist beliefs, and you may think they've misinterpreted Islam, the Qur'an and/or the hadith, but that doesn't change the fact that they believe they have it right.
As you say, seven percent (i thought it was closer to ten, but whatever) of Muslims condone the murder of thousands of innocent civilians. Seven percent!!! Condone!!! Doesn't that make your jaw drop? How can you shrug that off? "It's only seven percent?" Lunacy! If seven percent of the population of a city were murderers, it would be a bloodbath! And i haven't seen the results yet (March 8th!), but... seven percent condone. So what percentage don't care either way, what percentage condone the idea but think that particular attack was bad (because it wasn't selective enough for non-Muslims or non-Islamists or whatever), what percentage...? Not enough data! But seven percent condone!!! That's horrible! Statistically speaking, that means that if i line up fifteen Muslims, one of them is a crazy bastard. And... there's no problem there?
i said it before and i'll say it again. Islam is a religion with serious problems, and so far Muslims have responded to those problems pathetically. Rather than banding together to fix the problems and try to educate the radicals and/or support efforts to end the spread of radical Islam and Islamism... they're complaining to non-Muslims! They're wasting their time and effort trying to educate non-Muslims on what "proper" Islam is. We're not the ones that need to learn that! Go tell it to that crazy fifteenth man, go tell it to the radicals.
And for the love of Pete -_- don't pretend we're stupid. Islamism has nothing to do with Islam? Come on. Suck it up, man, your religion is being hijacked by crazies. Denial is not going to help anyone, anywhere, anytime. Stop pretending it's not happening and start getting serious about fixing it. | Indi wrote: |
| smarter wrote: | | The results of a huge survey made by Gallup shows that indeed Islamists are politically motivated (and use religion to support their political views.) |
That is a misrepresentation.
No one denies that Islamists are politically motivated - it's a political movement after all.
But Islamists do not use Islam to support their political views, they base their political views on Islam. The whole Islamic political system is designed by going to the Qur'an and the hadith, picking out anything that seemed relevant to a government and/or system of laws, and then putting all that together to get Islamism.
You cannot absolve Islam of the blame for Islamism. That is patently dishonest, and - quite frankly - nonsensical. You may not agree with Islamist beliefs, and you may think they've misinterpreted Islam, the Qur'an and/or the hadith, but that doesn't change the fact that they believe they have it right.
As you say, seven percent (i thought it was closer to ten, but whatever) of Muslims condone the murder of thousands of innocent civilians. Seven percent!!! Condone!!! Doesn't that make your jaw drop? How can you shrug that off? "It's only seven percent?" Lunacy! If seven percent of the population of a city were murderers, it would be a bloodbath! And i haven't seen the results yet (March 8th!), but... seven percent condone. So what percentage don't care either way, what percentage condone the idea but think that particular attack was bad (because it wasn't selective enough for non-Muslims or non-Islamists or whatever), what percentage...? Not enough data! But seven percent condone!!! That's horrible! Statistically speaking, that means that if i line up fifteen Muslims, one of them is a crazy bastard. And... there's no problem there?
i said it before and i'll say it again. Islam is a religion with serious problems, and so far Muslims have responded to those problems pathetically. Rather than banding together to fix the problems and try to educate the radicals and/or support efforts to end the spread of radical Islam and Islamism... they're complaining to non-Muslims! They're wasting their time and effort trying to educate non-Muslims on what "proper" Islam is. We're not the ones that need to learn that! Go tell it to that crazy fifteenth man, go tell it to the radicals.
And for the love of Pete -_- don't pretend we're stupid. Islamism has nothing to do with Islam? Come on. Suck it up, man, your religion is being hijacked by crazies. Denial is not going to help anyone, anywhere, anytime. Stop pretending it's not happening and start getting serious about fixing it. |
1 First read twice before commenting once.
2 This seems to me more like a personal attack based on your wrong speculations and your incapacity to understand simple English words.
To free you from error:
- I'm a Christian (a non-practicing one)
- I believe religion is a personal matter therefore I strongly oppose mixing religion with politics, science, etc.
- I support free speech against any religion (I support the Danish cartoonists, etc.)
- I consider Islam as a whole one of the most aggressive religions, but as Christianity evolved over the centuries so will do Islam.
3 All I said is that I agree with a Gallup survey's broad conclusion. As I already said: read twice! Don't put words in my mouth!
