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IF Islam is the fastest growing religion, this is why...





Billy Hill
Imams Daughter Converts to Christianity, Needs Police Protection... from her own family.

Quote:
The British-born university graduate, who uses the pseudonym Hannah for her own safety, said she renounced the Muslim faith to escape being forced into an arranged marriage when she was 16.

She has been in hiding for more than a decade but called in police only a few months ago after receiving a text message from her brother.

In it, he said he would not be held responsible for his actions if she failed to return to Islam.


With tactics like that, it's no wonder more people aren't converting FROM Islam.

But now for the money shot...

Quote:
"I know the Koran says anyone who goes away from Islam should be killed as an apostate, so in some ways my family are following the Koran. They are following Islam to the word."


This is truly sickening. <edited by tidruG> It's not a religion of peace, it's a religion of pieces.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=500087
PMK-Bear
So, according to your Oh So Mature analysis, the reason why Islam expans so much is that a priest's convert daughters get hated by their family?

If that's not your Oh So Mature conclusion, please try clarifying.
horseatingweeds
I think one of the reasons Islam is growing so fast is that many of the developing nations are run by Islamic states that require the following of Islam. These developing nations also are actually having children so there population growth rate is rising steadily, unlike developed nations.
AftershockVibe
Oh for the love of whatever!

Is anyone else sick of seeing these blatantly inflammatory anti-Islam posts?
Billy Hill, you've made your position clear. Enough!

Every other topic in "Discuss World News" and sometimes "General" is ending up like this. I for one don't give a rats ass if people can find a link every other day from known right-wing newspapers like the Daily Mail and then post it with a hysterical headline in an attempt to either get people's backs up or further the anti-Islam thing.

Yes, I think the facts behind the story are terrible but it's getting stupid with the persistent pushing of your viewpoint. How about a sensible discussion instead of wailing that the sky is falling?

Yeah this girls father is a scary zealot. Yes, his ideals (assuming they are being reported correctly) are sickening and wrong.
But excuse me if I don't label every Muslim as such just because you seem to have an insatiable ability to find stories about Muslims who also happen to be morons and post them.

Every other topic is like this. It's the same posts, by the same people, arguing the same points, usually degenerating into a flame war between you and someone else who you quote in ridicule for not quite typing what they meant so you can pick it apart in your signature.

Can't we just make a "Billy Hill bashes Islam" sticky thread and move on?

In short: FFS! STFU!
Wink
palavra
AftershockVibe wrote:
Oh for the love of whatever!

Is anyone else sick of seeing these blatantly inflammatory anti-Islam posts?
Billy Hill, you've made your position clear. Enough!

Every other topic in "Discuss World News" and sometimes "General" is ending up like this. I for one don't give a rats ass if people can find a link every other day from known right-wing newspapers like the Daily Mail and then post it with a hysterical headline in an attempt to either get people's backs up or further the anti-Islam thing.

Yes, I think the facts behind the story are terrible but it's getting stupid with the persistent pushing of your viewpoint. How about a sensible discussion instead of wailing that the sky is falling?

Yeah this girls father is a scary zealot. Yes, his ideals (assuming they are being reported correctly) are sickening and wrong.
But excuse me if I don't label every Muslim as such just because you seem to have an insatiable ability to find stories about Muslims who also happen to be morons and post them.

Every other topic is like this. It's the same posts, by the same people, arguing the same points, usually degenerating into a flame war between you and someone else who you quote in ridicule for not quite typing what they meant so you can pick it apart in your signature.

Can't we just make a "Billy Hill bashes Islam" sticky thread and move on?

In short: FFS! STFU!
Wink

thanks for this good explanation.
it will be better for all of us, if we try to be reasonable like AftershockVibe
doppleganger
the only reason ISLAM is increasing is that because it is being forced on people of other religions, u can ask people from different religions staying in Islam dominated countries and you will find out what it means to them
PMK-Bear
So, did you know that, even if I'm shinto, I'm counted by the catholic church as catholic because my country is officially catholic and I haven't expressely resigned from a religion I was never part of? That's how they count it here.

More often than not, the numbers are extracted from the total population minus the fractions claimed by other religions, minus the corresponding abjurants of each one of them. And that's an essentially flawed way of measuring anything, not just religious beliefs.
Billy Hill
AftershockVibe wrote:
Oh for the love of whatever!

Is anyone else sick of seeing these blatantly inflammatory anti-Islam posts?


Actually, what I am sick and tired of seeing every single day is more news just like this coming out of certain religious states. Most of which happen to be Islamic. Then hearing all the denial about how it's not what it seems, or some other form of sugar coating to make it look like it's not as bad as it is. Or in this case, people wanting to silence the news. I guess if you can't hear about the news, it doesn't exist, eh?

News like this:

Quote:
BAGHDAD - Religious vigilantes have killed at least 40 women this year in the southern Iraqi city of Basra because of how they dressed, their mutilated bodies found with notes warning against "violating Islamic teachings," the police chief said Sunday.


...and this:

Quote:
KABUL, Dec. 8 (Xinhua) -- A teenager boy was hanged by Taliban insurgents on Saturday morning in Sangin district of southern Afghan Helmand province for alleged "spying" activities, local police said.


Or any of these:

Quote:
12/10/2007 (Swat, Pakistan) - A suicide bomber targets a busload of children, injuring five.


Quote:
12/9/2007 (Nevinnomysk, Russia) - Islamic terrorists bomb a passenger bus, killing two Russians.


Quote:
12/9/2007 (Mosul, Iraq) - A Christian girl is shot to death at a marketplace by Islamists.


By the way, my posts are not anti-Islam. They're anti-Radical Islam. I try to make that clear every time I post.
horseatingweeds
There is also the fact that the free world tends to ignore unpleasant things, like the fact that we're at war with a movement that would put us all under such laws.

That's a good reason to post this stuff.

There's also that under-dog factor. People in the free world like to have sympathy for their enemies. They like to think of Islamic Fundamentalist killers are only freedom fighters, angry about US aggression. Articles remind us how different, irrational, and zealous this enemy is.

That's another good reason.

You don't see this on prime time news. If you're lucky, you might hear about the number of people killed in Iraq, by people I mean Soldiers or civilians. Popular media finds anything that might seem anti-Islam to be too risky - they don't want people having fits like the one above. Can't do anything that harms your market share....
LimpFish
Well no wonder they're trying to kill people who convert from Islam, that has to be the only way they can keep people from leaving that messed up religion. I dont mean to be disrespectful, but I think it is messed up, and cannot understand how anyone could follow it.
Billy Hill
LimpFish wrote:
cannot understand how anyone could follow it.


... by gunpoint?? Wink
horseatingweeds
LimpFish wrote:
Well no wonder they're trying to kill people who convert from Islam, that has to be the only way they can keep people from leaving that messed up religion. I dont mean to be disrespectful, but I think it is messed up, and cannot understand how anyone could follow it.


Easy LimpFish. It's understandable when you see 'loud' Islam and all its clamoring for people to be killed for whatever reason the morning due brought today.

However, there is less crazy Islam. An Islam that basically reaches for dedication to God. I live close to Dearborn MI, it has the highest concentration of Muslims in the US. There's a whole stretch of Warren road with only store signs in Arabic.

Their culture is interesting. I've been to people's houses where the 5-year-old boy tells his sister and mother what to do. The whole issue of respect among the young men is determined by who can kick whose ass. Lying and cheating at school is accepted and normal. No one's clamoring for people to die though.

I've heard some odd stuff. This one fellow claimed that the Koran was like the Bible but didn't have the contradictions....

I loosing my point now, what was it. Not all Islam is totally mad. It is just very specific for day to day life and written in 623 ad for a nomadic desert people.
palavra
Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2224553,00.html

Quote:
The rainy season is over and the Niger Delta is lush and humid. This southern edge of West Africa, where Nigeria's wealth pumps out of oil and gas fields to bypass millions of its poorest people, is a restless place. In the small delta state of Akwa Ibom, the tension and the poverty has delivered an opportunity for a new and terrible phenomenon that is leading to the abuse and the murder of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of children. And it is being done in the name of Christianity.

Almost everyone goes to church here. Driving through the town of Esit Eket, the rust-streaked signs, tarpaulins hung between trees and posters on boulders, advertise a church for every third or fourth house along the road. Such names as New Testament Assembly, Church of God Mission, Mount Zion Gospel, Glory of God, Brotherhood of the Cross, Redeemed, Apostalistic. Behind the smartly painted doors pastors make a living by 'deliverances' - exorcisms - for people beset by witchcraft, something seen to cause anything from divorce, disease, accidents or job losses. With so many churches it's a competitive market, but by local standards a lucrative one.
But an exploitative situation has now grown into something much more sinister as preachers are turning their attentions to children - naming them as witches. In a maddened state of terror, parents and whole villages turn on the child. They are burnt, poisoned, slashed, chained to trees, buried alive or simply beaten and chased off into the bush.

Some parents scrape together sums needed to pay for a deliverance - sometimes as much as three or four months' salary for the average working man - although the pastor will explain that the witch might return and a second deliverance will be needed. Even if the parent wants to keep the child, their neighbours may attack it in the street.

This is not just a few cases. This is becoming commonplace. In Esit Eket, up a nameless, puddled-and-potholed path is a concrete shack stuffed to its fetid rafters with roughly made bunk beds. Here, three to a bed like battery chickens, sleep victims of the besuited Christian pastors and their hours-long, late-night services. Ostracised and abandoned, these are the children a whole community believes fervently are witches.

Sam Ikpe-Itauma is one of the few people in this area who does not believe what the evangelical 'prophets' are preaching. He opened his house to a few homeless waifs he came across, and now he tries his best to look after 131.

'The neighbours were not happy with me and tell me "you are supporting witches". This project was an accident, I saw children being abandoned and it was very worrying. I started with three children, then every day it increased up to 15, so we had to open this new place,' he says. 'For every maybe five children we see on the streets, we believe one has been killed, although it could be more as neighbours turn a blind eye when a witch child disappears.

'It is good we have this shelter, but it is under constant attack.' As he speaks two villagers walk past, at the end of the yard, pulling scarfs across their eyes to hide the 'witches' from their sight.

Ikpe-Itauma's wife, Elizabeth, acts as nurse to the injured children and they have called this place the Child Rights and Rehabilitation Network, a big name for a small refuge. It has found support from a charity running a school in the area, Stepping Stones Nigeria, which is trying to help with money to feed the children, but the numbers turning up here are a huge challenge.

Mary Sudnad, 10, grimaces as her hair is pulled into corn rows by Agnes, 11, but the scalp just above her forehead is bald and blistered. Mary tells her story fast, in staccato, staring fixedly at the ground.

'My youngest brother died. The pastor told my mother it was because I was a witch. Three men came to my house. I didn't know these men. My mother left the house. Left these men. They beat me.' She pushes her fists under her chin to show how her father lay, stretched out on his stomach on the floor of their hut, watching. After the beating there was a trip to the church for 'a deliverance'.

A day later there was a walk in the bush with her mother. They picked poisonous 'asiri' berries that were made into a draught and forced down Mary's throat. If that didn't kill her, her mother warned her, then it would be a barbed-wire hanging. Finally her mother threw boiling water and caustic soda over her head and body, and her father dumped his screaming daughter in a field. Drifting in and out of consciousness, she stayed near the house for a long time before finally slinking off into the bush.Mary was seven. She says she still doesn't feel safe. She says: 'My mother doesn't love me.' And, finally, a tear streaks down her beautiful face.

Gerry was picked out by a 'prophetess' at a prayer night and named as a witch. His mother cursed him, his father siphoned petrol from his motorbike tank and spat it over his eight-year-old face. Gerry's facial blistering is as visible as the trauma in his dull eyes. He asks every adult he sees if they will take him home to his parents: 'It's not them, it's the prophetess, I am scared of her.'

Nwaeka is about 16. She sits by herself in the mud, her eyes rolling, scratching at her stick-thin arms. The other children are surprisingly patient with her. The wound on her head where a nail was driven in looks to be healing well. Nine- year-old Etido had nails, too, five of them across the crown of his downy head. Its hard to tell what damage has been done. Udo, now 12, was beaten and abandoned by his mother. He nearly lost his arm after villagers, finding him foraging for food by the roadside, saw him as a witch and hacked at him with machetes.

Billy Hill
palavra wrote:
Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2224553,00.html


Yeah, those guys are freaks and we, as Christians, want nothing to do with them. We strongly denounce their actions and beliefs. Wink

THAT, my friends, is the difference... Laughing Laughing Laughing
palavra
Billy Hill wrote:
palavra wrote:
Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2224553,00.html


Yeah, those guys are freaks and we, as Christians, want nothing to do with them. We strongly denounce their actions and beliefs. Wink

THAT, my friends, is the difference... Laughing Laughing Laughing


and who give you right to talk for all christians
probably they consider you as heretic.Because as i know exorcism avaible in Bible
horseatingweeds
palavra wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:
palavra wrote:
Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2224553,00.html


Yeah, those guys are freaks and we, as Christians, want nothing to do with them. We strongly denounce their actions and beliefs. Wink

THAT, my friends, is the difference... Laughing Laughing Laughing


and who give you right to talk for all christians
probably they consider you as heretic.Because as i know exorcism avaible in Bible


There are three big deferences here. For one, this odd type of Christianity is only practiced one stupid village. The average Christian would not approve of such exploitation. It is common in many Islam communities for violence to be used to prevent people from not following whatever type of Islam.

Second, the exploitation described in the story isn't state run.

Third, this philosophy is not represented by a world wide movement that intends on putting all people under such rules and practices.

It is proof, though, that to find something comparable to some of the crazy crap we see in certain forms of Islam we have to find small isolated groups, like cults and so on.
coolclay
Dear Aftershockvibe,
May I suggest not reading posts that make you so upset. You'll get ulcers if you read enough of them, and we don't want that.
Thanks, Clayton

No one here is anti-islam, at least not that I can gather from reading anyones posts, or previous posts. There are some anti-extremists (of which I am one) here. The anti-extremists viewpoint extends to all religions in my opinion, it just so happens that a large majority of them come from radical islam. I have seen videos of elementary school children reading poetry about suicide terrorists. Radical islam raises children to be non-thinking robots, that they can use to do whatever they please. They are raised from day one to hate pretty much anything.

May I suggest a great book for anyone. It is called My Forbidden Face, it is written by a 16 year old young women, and aspiring journalists, and how her life changes when the Taliban (a regime of radical islam) come and take over Kabul.

Its really cheap ($.01), and is a fantastic book, that gives you an idea of what it is like to live in a area controlled by a regime of radical islamists.
You can find it here
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786869011/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
Billy Hill
palavra wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:
palavra wrote:
Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2224553,00.html


Yeah, those guys are freaks and we, as Christians, want nothing to do with them. We strongly denounce their actions and beliefs. Wink

THAT, my friends, is the difference... Laughing Laughing Laughing


and who give you right to talk for all christians


God gave me the right to talk for all Christians.

Find me ONE Christian that agrees that witch hunts are proper in this day and age and I'll show you a person that, while may claim to be a Christian, is NOT. Wink

Also, what you described is not the norm as it is for the world wide push for Sharia Law by (radical) Islam, as pointed out...

Quote:

Third, this philosophy is not represented by a world wide movement that intends on putting all people under such rules and practices.
jwellsy
The thing that surprises me is that her brother can type a text message.
Many scholars say that the Quran was a miracle performed by an illiterate Muhammad.
Many muslims are still illiterate. That's how their leaders stay in power, by keeping them that way.
palavra
Quote:

Find me ONE Christian that agrees that witch hunts are proper in this day and age and I'll show you a person that, while may claim to be a Christian, is NOT. Wink


not in this day
but founder of christianism.
those christians torture kids ,Jesus (-not real one -only- jesus in bible-) tortures pigs.

Quote:
They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes. When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil spirit came from the tombs to meet him. This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.
When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won’t torture me!” For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you evil spirit!”
Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”
“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many. ” And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.
A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man--and told about the pigs as well. Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.
As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. Jesus did not let him, but said, “Go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.
—Mark 5:1-20, NIV






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Jesus
Billy Hill
palavra wrote:
Quote:

Find me ONE Christian that agrees that witch hunts are proper in this day and age and I'll show you a person that, while may claim to be a Christian, is NOT. Wink


not in this day


That's right. Christians as a whole are not barbaric murderers for stupid crap like naming a teddy bear, being gay or wanting to change religions.

But you WILL find them in Islam in this day and age. By the millions.

Does that tell you something about the "Religion of Pieces"?? It sure tells me a lot. It tells me that Islamic Muslims that don't want to be stereotyped as terrorists need to speak out against it. But you don't see that.

I wonder why. (Not really, I know why, but I just wanted you to think about why...)
AftershockVibe
Billy Hill wrote:
Does that tell you something about the "Religion of Pieces"?? It sure tells me a lot. It tells me that Islamic Muslims that don't want to be stereotyped as terrorists need to speak out against it. But you don't see that.


Uh, yes you do. I do believe that all terrorist attacks have been condemned by every government regardless of whether they are Islamic or not. Example:
http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=mideast&item=071212142654.n3tlvu1w.php

Or perhaps you mean they should do something more proactive? Local Muslims trying to make a difference? Like this maybe...
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/search/display.var.1813085.0.muslim_representatives_pledge_to_tackle_terror.php


Your selective ignorance is astounding but not unexpected.

The Sudanese embassy itself described the whole situation with the Teddy Bear as a "storm in a teacup". You think that the protesters calling for the woman's death actually gave a crap about the teddy bear? The maximum possible penalty in Sudanese law is 40 lashes anyway. No, they just wanted to kill the westerner! That is a different problem entirely.


Unfortunately, news stories with sensible people saying "this is bad" are not nearly as attention grabbing as trying to find some idiot cleric declaring death to the west. Guess which one will make the headline every time?
Billy Hill
AftershockVibe wrote:

Uh, yes you do. I do believe that all terrorist attacks have been condemned by every government regardless of whether they are Islamic or not.


No, I meant they have to actually believe it was wrong, not just say it was wrong. And it's not so much the governments, it's the people as well. But again, I know why they don't.
AftershockVibe
Billy Hill wrote:
No, I meant they have to actually believe it was wrong, not just say it was wrong. And it's not so much the governments, it's the people as well. But again, I know why they don't.


So... your argument is that Muslims should speak out against terrorism but when they do then they are lying? Well at least we've established that if someone is a muslim then they can't win in your eyes no matter what they do.

Rolling Eyes

You said that you didn't see Muslims speaking out against terrorism. That is blatantly untrue.
Billy Hill
AftershockVibe wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:
No, I meant they have to actually believe it was wrong, not just say it was wrong. And it's not so much the governments, it's the people as well. But again, I know why they don't.


So... your argument is that Muslims should speak out against terrorism but when they do then they are lying? Well at least we've established that if someone is a muslim then they can't win in your eyes no matter what they do.


I've seen a few Muslims speak out, and I applaud them.

But I was referring to some of the governments that denounced it publicly yet still support it behind the curtain. And it was you, by the way, that brought governments in to the discussion, causing me to reply the way I did.

Please don't twist my words.

Quote:

You said that you didn't see Muslims speaking out against terrorism. That is blatantly untrue.


You're right, I meant to say the vast majority of them do not speak out. There's a difference.
jwellsy
In the past 7 years how many anti-extreamist messages have you heard from Muslims on TV, radio, newspapers etc? Maybe 12 times, but only after being asked about their position on terrorists. Mainly heads of states trying to dodge political bullets.

How many times have a Muslim initiated any kind of public denouncement or appology on their own accord without being prompted? NON EXISTANT!

When they do speak out, yes it does come across as disengenuous.
Bikerman
The notion that Islam is the fastest growing religion is seriously questionable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion
palavra
Quote:
God gave me the right to talk for all Christians.


Quote:
No, I meant they have to actually believe it was wrong, not just say it was wrong.



as is see you have an another god-given right. Easily you can detect who talks truth who not. Then it is useless what we say you will not believe us.


Quote:
And it's not so much the governments, it's the people as well. But again, I know why they don't.



http://en.fgulen.com/content/view/1727/
this person "fethullah gulen" is one of the most respectful religious leader in Turkiye.He clearly establishing a real muslim cannot be terrorist and a terrorist cannot be a real muslim.



and
you still didn't answer my question about excorsim.
you see it is clear enough according to bible Jesus did this himself.
and those nigerian christians follows bible and jesus.
now either you are a corrupt christian or jesus was wrong.
paul_indo
One aspect to consider is the situation I have found here in Indonesia.

Back a couple of hundred years ago or so in the west if your parents were Catholic then you were too, if they were Protestant or Baptist then the same applied, so were you. More recently western cultures have begun to realise that this is neither realistic or logical. Religion, like most things, must come from a personal choice with no compulsion.

That is one of the reasons that Islam is quoted as having so many followers. Although huge numbers never go near a mosque or ever pray they are Muslim because they were born Muslim.

Unlike the west they have not realised that religion is a matter of intelligent choice and resulting action. The majority of Muslims I have met here believe that they are just born that way and that is it. No thought or action required.

In reality the number of practising Muslims is much lower than that which is quoted.
Billy Hill
palavra wrote:

you still didn't answer my question about excorsim.
you see it is clear enough according to bible Jesus did this himself.
and those nigerian christians follows bible and jesus.
now either you are a corrupt christian or jesus was wrong.


Not quite sure what the past has to do with this conversation. Unless it's to say that (radical) Islam hasn't changed in centuries and still thinks it's OK to murder women and children for no reason other than religious belief or a childish insult.

Quote:
as is see you have an another god-given right. Easily you can detect who talks truth who not.


Like I said, and like you promptly took out of context, I am referring to governments like Syria who denounce it, yet support it behind the curtain.

Do yourself a favor... Pat attention to what I say before you try to twist it around. Chances are I'll be back to put you in your place and re-iterate what I said again and again and again. And again.
LimpFish
i read that after the tsunami in asia, thousands of muslim girls committed suicide. Why, you might ask? Because when they were swept away by the flood, many of the lost pieces of their clothing, showing their face, arms, legs, or similar things, which is such a dishonor for them and their families that they couldnt take it. I guess that as usual in these cases, the "suicides" might just aswell be their families killing them for bringing disgrace to the family...
LimpFish
AftershockVibe wrote:

The Sudanese embassy itself described the whole situation with the Teddy Bear as a "storm in a teacup". You think that the protesters calling for the woman's death actually gave a crap about the teddy bear? The maximum possible penalty in Sudanese law is 40 lashes anyway. No, they just wanted to kill the westerner! That is a different problem entirely.


Oh, that's way better Wink
AftershockVibe
LimpFish wrote:
Oh, that's way better Wink


My point was, that religion was an excuse, not a motivation.
Bikerman
AftershockVibe wrote:
LimpFish wrote:
Oh, that's way better Wink


My point was, that religion was an excuse, not a motivation.

I think it is a fair point.
The problem is, though, that the judicial system supported the idea that a serious offence had been committed. This is, I think, the worrying part. The function of a judiciary should be to ensure that justice is done and it appears in this case that it was not. I presume the judicial decision to impose a 15 day prison sentence was valid according to Sudanese protocols, and it must, therefore, be based on a religious underpinning which I find unacceptable. I do not think that Sharia law is in force in Sudan - the legal system seems to be a mishmash of British, Islamic and US systems, but clearly religious belief played a major part in the operation of the system in this case.
palavra
Quote:
Like I said, and like you promptly took out of context, I am referring to governments like Syria who denounce it, yet support it behind the curtain


this is not because ot syrian government muslim they are insincire but just politic.

mr.bush also lied about mass descruction weapons in Iraq.
he is a liar.
last CIA report about iran's nuclear made it more specific he is a big liar.
usa is supporting terrorist groups in iran and who know in which country.
usa supported secretly a lots of military coup in all over the world.
usa didn't do because they are christian ,this is just politic.


and

i am waiting for your answer about exorcism.
do you believe it like Jesus did or not???
horseatingweeds
palavra, stop tap-dancing around BillyHill's words. What he said is evident. Islam has a problem. A prominent sect of them wants to destroy the free world and is pursuing that goal relentlessly. After the attacks of 9-11, in Dearborn MI, the most concentrated population of Muslims in the US, the followers of Islam didn't immediately speak out against the philosophy, they spoke out against what they saw was impending retribution against Muslims. There was no retribution. Still, the outspoken Muslim was rare.

Some stories I've heard were of cheering after the attacks. Many Muslims seemed actually to be glad it happened. The majority may not have been happy about it but you get the feeling that the average Muslim of follower of Islam is at least sympathetic to the extremists.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make about Jesus chasing demons out of a man and into pigs. The Nigerian village in your story was being extorted by leaders in their area, criminal, just like people claiming to know medicine who don't and take sick people's money.

Jesus didn't kill anyone. The spirits in the man recognized Jesus. They feared him as he is the son of God. They begged him not to destroy them so he allowed them to lead the man and go into a heard of pigs, merciful. He didn't harm anyone and didn't accept money.

Depending on how you see things, many people believe followers of Jesus also have an amount of power by using his name to force demons out of possessed people. This doesn't include killing children. It's mostly praying and demanding the demon to leave using the name of God.
Moonspider
palavra wrote:

last CIA report about iran's nuclear made it more specific he is a big liar.


No it didn't. The report (which Iran ironically praised) said that the U.S. intelligence community was as confident as they can be that Iran did have a clandestine nuclear weapons program which with less confidence the U.S. intelligence community believes ended in 2003.

Thus, if Iran praises the report for its accuracy, they are admitting having pursued nuclear weapons technology for at least 15-18 years (something they vehemently denied before and am sure will continue to do so, if not already, once they realize their faux pas.) Furthermore, the report states that the U.S. intelligence community does not know Iran's intentions and that they can restart the program at any time.

If you wish to read the report instead of all of the talking head commentaries on it, you may find it here: http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20071203_release.pdf The report is only nine pages long and the meat of the report takes less than three pages.

Or you can read my commentary on it at my blog: http://fullmoonspider.blogspot.com/

Respectfully,
M
theem
It is a common complaint among some non-Muslims that Islam would not have millions of adherents all over the world, if it had not been spread by the use of force. The following points will make it clear, that far from being spread by the sword, it was the inherent force of truth, reason and logic that was responsible for the rapid spread of Islam.

Quote:

1. Islam means peace.

Islam comes from the root word ‘salaam’, which means peace. It also means submitting one’s will to Allah (swt). Thus Islam is a religion of peace, which is acquired by submitting one’s will to the will of the Supreme Creator, Allah (swt).


2. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace.

Each and every human being in this world is not in favour of maintaining peace and harmony. There are many, who would disrupt it for their own vested interests. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace. It is precisely for this reason that we have the police who use force against criminals and anti-social elements to maintain peace in the country. Islam promotes peace. At the same time, Islam exhorts it followers to fight where there is oppression. The fight against oppression may, at times, require the use of force. In Islam force can only be used to promote peace and justice.


3. Opinion of historian De Lacy O’Leary.

The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page Cool:

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."


4. Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years.

Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.


5. 14 million Arabs are Coptic Christians.

Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.


6. More than 80% non-Muslims in India.

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.


7. Indonesia and Malaysia.

Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, "Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?"


8. East Coast of Africa.

Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, "Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?"


9. Thomas Carlyle.

The famous historian, Thomas Carlyle, in his book "Heroes and Hero worship", refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam: "The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword? Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can."


10. No compulsion in religion.

With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Qur’an says in the following verse:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion:
Truth stands out clear from error"
[Al-Qur’an 2:256]


11. Sword of the Intellect.

It is the sword of intellect. The sword that conquers the hearts and minds of people. The Qur’an says in Surah Nahl, chapter 16 verse 125:

"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord
with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are
best and most gracious."
[Al-Qur’an 16:125]


12. Increase in the world religions from 1934 to 1984.

An article in Reader’s Digest ‘Almanac’, year book 1986, gave the statistics of the increase of percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in ‘The Plain Truth’ magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, and Christianity had increased only by 47%. May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions of people to Islam?


13. Islam is the fastest growing religion in America and Europe.

Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam. Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?


14. Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson.

Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson rightly says, "People who worry that nuclear weaponry will one day fall in the hands of the Arabs, fail to realize that the Islamic bomb has been dropped already, it fell the day MUHAMMED (pbuh) was born".
palavra
Quote:
Jesus didn't kill anyone. The spirits in the man recognized Jesus. They feared him as he is the son of God. They begged him not to destroy them so he allowed them to lead the man and go into a heard of pigs, merciful. He didn't harm anyone and didn't accept money.

what about the drowned pigs. if son of god Question kills the pigs. Certainly his followers kill babies.

Quote:
Some stories I've heard were of cheering after the attacks. Many Muslims seemed actually to be glad it happened. The majority may not have been happy about it but you get the feeling that the average Muslim of follower of Islam is at least sympathetic to the extremists

just stories!
we have heard some stories your president calls the war to Iraq as new crusade.
we have heard many americans are very sympathetic when they kill people in Iraq.


Quote:
There is a story that Ali had visited the remains of the World Trade Center in New York City after the September 11, 2001 attacks and was asked by reporters how he felt about having the same religion as the people who did this. He then allegedly responded with the question "How do you feel about Hitler sharing yours?"

While Ali did visit the World Trade Center around that time, what he actually said was as follows:

"Religions all have different names, but they all contain the same truths. ... I think the people of our religion should be tolerant and understand people believe different things."
from "Bush: 'Justice Will Be Done.'", CNN.com, 20 September 2001.
"What's really hurting me, the name Islam is involved, and Muslim is involved and causing trouble and starting hate and violence. ... Islam is not a killer religion. ... Islam means peace, I couldn't just sit home and watch people label Muslims as the reason for this problem."
from "Muhammad Ali Defends His Religion.", New York Daily News (p. 34), 21 September 2001, Colangelo, Lisa L. and Clem Richardson.


http://www.popstarsplus.com/sports_muhammadali.htm
liljp617
Islam is not growing, radical Islam is. There's quite the difference. And it's caused by interference of western countries into the internal affairs of other countries.
icecool
doppelganger wrote:

"the only reason ISLAM is increasing is that because it is being forced on people of other religions, u can ask people from different religions staying in Islam dominated countries and you will find out what it means to them"

i do so much like these generalisations. i live in the gambia, west africa. 95 % of the population here are muslims. i am not. we have islamic and christian holidays and we ALL celebrate them together as friends. lets face it, it's more time off for everybody and who doesn'tlike a party or a get together.

it is actually possible fpr people to live together in relative harmony - all it needs is respect for each other. simple. well..... it should be Confused
LimpFish
palavra wrote:

what about the drowned pigs. if son of god Question kills the pigs. Certainly his followers kill babies.


ehhh what is the logic here?

And btw I cant really recall Hitler using the Bible or anything to justify his actions.
palavra
LimpFish wrote:
palavra wrote:

what about the drowned pigs. if son of god Question kills the pigs. Certainly his followers kill babies.


ehhh what is the logic here?


i think logic is very clear.

Quote:

And btw I cant really recall Hitler using the Bible or anything to justify his actions.


you can be sure he was not a good christian and human beings.But you can be sure there were a lots of good christians under his command helped to kill millions of jews and other people.
horseatingweeds
palavra wrote:
Quote:
Jesus didn't kill anyone. The spirits in the man recognized Jesus. They feared him as he is the son of God. They begged him not to destroy them so he allowed them to lead the man and go into a heard of pigs, merciful. He didn't harm anyone and didn't accept money.

what about the drowned pigs. if son of god Question kills the pigs. Certainly his followers kill babies.


I don't think you understand what logic is palavra. I can't believe I'm trying you help you here but listen. First, Jesus ordered the demons out of a person and they went into the pig who them killed themselves, as if the demons compelled them to do so. Second, what in your brain leads you to believe that, assuming a leader of any kind killed pigs, his killing of pigs would somehow lead his followers to kill people?

palavra wrote:
Quote:
Some stories I've heard were of cheering after the attacks. Many Muslims seemed actually to be glad it happened. The majority may not have been happy about it but you get the feeling that the average Muslim of follower of Islam is at least sympathetic to the extremists

just stories!
we have heard some stories your president calls the war to Iraq as new crusade.
we have heard many americans are very sympathetic when they kill people in Iraq.


My stories are from my neighborhood about people in the neighborhood. I feel this is credible because that is the general feeling I get from many Muslims here, mostly the young counterproductive ones. And I describe it as a feeling to be gentle. I've heard so weird stuff from people, some avid anti-Jew and anti-US morons.

Your story about the President calling the war a Crusade is mixed-up. He said crusade in describing the struggle against the evil forces there. "Cucade," except in history books, has not been used for describing a Christina war on Islam for 500 years. All he meant by it was that it is a struggle for good. "Crusade" is used all the time for this in the English speaking world.

It was a bad choice of words indeed, used by the idiots who wish to inflame things by convincing gullible people that the US is trying to destrou Islam....

You sound like on of these people - believing the US is after the destruction of Islam along with its good buddy Israel. You can trust me on this much: the US people DO NOT like Iraqis being killed and in no way would support any effort to destroy Islam. If someone did say something to that effect, everyone would just think that person had mental problems. If American didn't car about Iraqis so much effort wouldn't be taken in avoiding harming productive Iraqis.
Billy Hill
palavra wrote:


Quote:
Some stories I've heard were of cheering after the attacks. Many Muslims seemed actually to be glad it happened. The majority may not have been happy about it but you get the feeling that the average Muslim of follower of Islam is at least sympathetic to the extremists


just stories!


Those are not just stories. I saw it on TV in the weeks after 9/11 myself. In many countries including the US. So-called peaceful Muslims saying they applaud the attacks.

Quote:
we have heard some stories your president calls the war to Iraq as new crusade.


dictionary.com wrote:
cru·sade /kruˈseɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kroo-seyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -sad·ed, -sad·ing.
–noun
1. (often initial capital letter) any of the military expeditions undertaken by the Christians of Europe in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries for the recovery of the Holy Land from the Muslims.
2. any war carried on under papal sanction.
3. any vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense or advancement of an idea,


We absolutely ARE on a crusade according to definition number three above in the defense of Religious Freedom.

Radical Islam declared Jihad on the US specifically and non-Islamics in general 3 decades ago. Non Islamics are just now starting to realize this en-mas. Now that we are seeing more and more every day, we will be more and more aggressive against those that declared war on us.

Luckily, Bush saw this for what it was in 2001. Lets hope the next US President sees it as well and continues the "cursade".
Bikerman
Billy Hill wrote:

We absolutely ARE on a crusade according to definition number three above in the defense of Religious Freedom.

Radical Islam declared Jihad on the US specifically and non-Islamics in general 3 decades ago. Non Islamics are just now starting to realize this en-mas. Now that we are seeing more and more every day, we will be more and more aggressive against those that declared war on us.

Hmm...I fail to see what that has to do with Iraq. Iraq was one of the more secular countries in the Middle-East and had no major issue with Islamic terrorism before the war. Saudi-arabia is the spiritual home of the Jihadists who attacked the US on 9/11 but, of course, Saudi Arabia is a US ally...
horseatingweeds
The extremists, and Sadam when he was still swinging his stick, are trying to convince everyone that the US is trying to destroy Islam and exterminate Muslims. It's a big point in their recruiting brochure.

Our little friend palavra seems to suspect this, that the US is a Christian anti-Islam force.

Any yes, Saudi is an American ally. I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to understand. It's no contradiction. The trouble is all the rich young men in Saudi with nothing better to do. It's a bad enough combination, young men and boredom. But then you throw in plenty of money....
Bikerman
horseatingweeds wrote:
The extremists, and Sadam when he was still swinging his stick, are trying to convince everyone that the US is trying to destroy Islam and exterminate Muslims. It's a big point in their recruiting brochure.
I suspect the war in Iraq has been a better recruiting incentive than all of the self-serving speeches that Saddam every made...
horseatingweeds
Do you mean the US removing the oppressive leader and rebuilding the country as a free nation where Muslims can worship as they please, go to school, have jobs, and build vibrant nation as a nation of mesopotamia certainly should?

Or

The US is killing Iraqis, stealing their oils, and in cohoots with Israel wants to destroy Islam.

Anyway, worrying about Iraq being used as a recruiting too is useless. Logic is so skewed in the minds of the recruiters, and reality so far from the recruited, there will never be a shortage of handy tools.
Bikerman
horseatingweeds wrote:
Do you mean the US removing the oppressive leader and rebuilding the country as a free nation where Muslims can worship as they please, go to school, have jobs, and build vibrant nation as a nation of mesopotamia certainly should?
It would be nice....it remains, however, a dream at the moment, and not a dream which I suspect the US administration started out with before the war.
Quote:
Or

The US is killing Iraqis, stealing their oils, and in cohoots with Israel wants to destroy Islam.

Well, the first two are certainly true, the third is half-true. I don't think Israel has any strong hopes of destroying Islam and I don't think the US is party to any such dream. The US is interested primarily in maintaining oil supplies.
Quote:

Anyway, worrying about Iraq being used as a recruiting too is useless. Logic is so skewed in the minds of the recruiters, and reality so far from the recruited, there will never be a shortage of handy tools.
I disagree. Persuading someone to die for a cause is not easy. Unfortunately a lot of the resentment and anger felt in the region, that leads ultimately to terrorism, is not founded in fantasy. Anything that adds to the real grievances in that region is bound to be useful to those who advocate terrorism.
palavra
Billy Hill wrote:

Those are NOT just stories. I saw it on TV in the weeks after 9/11 myself. In many countries including the US. So-called peaceful Muslims saying they applaud the attacks.


i didn't see any kind of cheerful behavior in my country and neighboorhood.
but maybe some fanatics might have been happy, this is their problem.it has nothing to do with islam or muslims.

2+2=4
first (2) :mr bush told there are mass descruction weapons in Iraq
secon(2) :how many years passed ,he couldn't find these weapons

this makes him a LIAR
but he is a lucky LIAR. He had enough people who were ready to beleive his lies.

Was his lies innocent lies or white lies.
NO because of his lies thousands of people died and millions of people suffered.


Quote:


dictionary.com wrote:
cru·sade /kruˈseɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kroo-seyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -sad·ed, -sad·ing.
–noun
1. (often initial capital letter) any of the military expeditions undertaken by the Christians of Europe in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries for the recovery of the Holy Land from the Muslims.
2. any war carried on under papal sanction.
3. any vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense or advancement of an idea,


We absolutely ARE on a crusade according to definition number three above in the defense of Religious Freedom.

Radical Islam declared Jihad on the US specifically and non-Islamics in general 3 decades ago. Non Islamics are just now starting to realize this en-mas. Now that we are seeing more and more every day, we will be more and more aggressive against those that declared war on us.

Luckily, Bush saw this for what it was in 2001. Lets hope the next US President sees it as well and continues the "cursade".


we know what is crusade and no need to take lesson from you.
you think when mr. bush talk about this crusade he meant the number three.
i mean did he tell "peeple i use this word in third meaning." Very Happy

Quote:
Reports of cannibalism were recorded during the First Crusade, as Crusaders reportedly fed on the bodies of their dead opponents following the capture of the Arab town of Ma'arrat al-Numan. Amin Maalouf also discusses further cannibalism incidents on the march to Jerusalem, and to the efforts made to delete mention of these from western history. (Amin Maalouf, The Crusades through Arab Eyes. Schocken, 1989, ISBN 0-8052-0898-4).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism


Quote:

Pope John Paul II Makes Unprecedented Apology For Sins of Catholic Church
Pope John Paul II put it this way, "We forgive and we ask forgiveness." And with that, he led church leaders and followers in sweeping confession, seeking repentance for sins that may have been committed over the past 2,000 years in the name of the church.

They fell into seven general categories of wrongs which include, without being too specific, everything from the Crusades to the Inquisition, the forced conversions, to sins against women and anti- Jewish acts. It was a first for the church, which has only rarely and only in specific instances confessed errors in the past.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/12/sm.06.html
palavra
horseatingweeds wrote:
palavra wrote:
Quote:
Jesus didn't kill anyone. The spirits in the man recognized Jesus. They feared him as he is the son of God. They begged him not to destroy them so he allowed them to lead the man and go into a heard of pigs, merciful. He didn't harm anyone and didn't accept money.

what about the drowned pigs. if son of god Question kills the pigs. Certainly his followers kill babies.


I don't think you understand what logic is palavra. What you say here is just stupid. I can't believe I'm trying you help you here but listen. First, Jesus ordered the demons out of a person and they went into the pig who them killed themselves, as if the demons compelled them to do so. Second, what in your brain leads you to believe that, assuming a leader of any kind killed pigs, his killing of pigs would somehow lead his followers to kill people?


but when Jesus let the spirits go into a heard of pigs, he knew all of those innocent pigs are going to drown.Jesus is guilty himself for the drowning of the pigs.
i think those innocent pigs deserve mercy more than those bad spirits.

why don't you ask your questions to those people
then all of us can learn how they got this stupid exorsism idea.
there are thousands of example of this kind of news in google.



Quote:
Police officer escorts Daniel Petru Corogeanu, the monk who led fatal exorcism ritual.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-06-25-exorcism_x.htm

Quote:
A court in the US state of Wisconsin has heard how an autistic boy died while being held down by worshippers and a priest during an exorcism.

Quote:
ATLANTA, Georgia (AP) -- A husband and wife have been charged with murdering a 6-year-old girl whose back was broken in what police said may have been an exorcism gone wrong.


Quote:
Hemphill told police on the night of August 22, 2003 that he had been holding a series of special prayer services, described by some as exorcisms, over the previous three weeks to remove "evil spirits" of autism from Cottrell. Hemphill, who weighed 157 pounds, described how he would sit or lay on "Junior's" chest for up to two hours at a time, whispering into the boy's ear for the "demons" to leave his body.

Three women -- including the child's mother, Patricia Cooper -- described to police how they sat on Cottrell's arms and legs while Hemphill sat on his chest. One woman said she pushed down on the boy's diaphragm several times during the service.






Quote:

palavra wrote:
Quote:
Some stories I've heard were of cheering after the attacks. Many Muslims seemed actually to be glad it happened. The majority may not have been happy about it but you get the feeling that the average Muslim of follower of Islam is at least sympathetic to the extremists

just stories!
we have heard some stories your president calls the war to Iraq as new crusade.
we have heard many americans are very sympathetic when they kill people in Iraq.


My stories are from my neighborhood about people in the neighborhood. I feel this is credible because that is the general feeling I get from many Muslims here, mostly the young counterproductive ones. And I describe it as a feeling to be gentle. I've heard so weird stuff from people, some avid anti-Jew and anti-US morons.

i didn't see or hear in my country and neighboorhood that kind of stupid reaction.

Quote:

Your story about the President calling the war a Crusade is mixed-up. He said crusade in describing the struggle against the evil forces there. "Cucade," except in history books, has not been used for describing a Christina war on Islam for 500 years. All he meant by it was that it is a struggle for good. "Crusade" is used all the time for this in the English speaking world.

It was a bad choice of words indeed, used by the idiots who wish to inflame things by convincing gullible people that the US is trying to destrou Islam....

when mr. bush do its only a bad choice ;when some individuals show cheer for 9/11, all muslims responsible?
Quote:

You sound like on of these people - believing the US is after the destruction of Islam along with its good buddy Israel. You can trust me on this much: the US people DO NOT like Iraqis being killed and in no way would support any effort to destroy Islam. If someone did say something to that effect, everyone would just think that person had mental problems. If American didn't car about Iraqis so much effort wouldn't be taken in avoiding harming productive Iraqis.

then why usa invade iraq?
is there any mass descruction weapens?
no
Was there any link between al-qaide and saddam?
no,actually there is a link with saudia but they are your good ally.
the only reason, Saddam didn't allow the inspectors to search for weapons.
if usa ask to Russia , China ,israel or even Turkiye
will those governments let to inspectors search for their weapons?
no.
Billy Hill
palavra wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:

Those are NOT just stories. I saw it on TV in the weeks after 9/11 myself. In many countries including the US. So-called peaceful Muslims saying they applaud the attacks.


i didn't see any kind of cheerful behavior in my country and neighboorhood.
but maybe some fanatics might have been happy, this is their problem.it has nothing to do with islam or muslims.


Nothing to do with Islam and Muslims? It was Muslims doing it in the name of Islam. WTF dude? You deef? (Bugs Bunny quote Smile )
HalfBloodPrince
If some American, or wait, I should use another example or you'll get buffed up; if some Brazilian kills people and says that its in the name of Brazil, does that mean all Brazilian people support and commend him and his actions? And if it was 50 Brazilians, or even 500, does that still mean all Brazilians support and commend their actions?
Billy Hill
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
If some American, or wait, I should use another example or you'll get buffed up; if some Brazilian kills people and says that its in the name of Brazil, does that mean all Brazilian people support and commend him and his actions? And if it was 50 Brazilians, or even 500, does that still mean all Brazilians support and commend their actions?


Absolutely not, but where do you draw the line? 500,000? 5,000,000???

How many RIMs are there in the world trying to spread their hatred and discontent? Hundreds of thousands if not millions from what I can see. Seriously, they're like a turd that won't flush. They're everywhere, in all walks of life, in every country.

Still trying to dismiss the FACT that it is (Radical) Islamic Muslims who are doing this and not Christians, Buddhists, Catholics?

Yeah, thought so. Laughing

And are you sure that the so-called peaceful Muslims are not the ones who are the minority? When you look at how many Muslims are openly supporting terrorism vs how many Muslims are openly denouncing it, I'd think one could easily come to the conclusion that moderate Muslims are the minority. I'm not saying, I'm just asking... Wink
HalfBloodPrince
Billy Hill wrote:
When you look at how many Muslims are openly supporting terrorism vs how many Muslims are openly denouncing it, I'd think one could easily come to the conclusion that moderate Muslims are the minority. I'm not saying, I'm just asking... Wink


The vast majority of Muslims denounce it, I can guarantee you that, its just that not many are willing to risk their lives to do it. There are over one billion Muslims in the world; I don't think that even a tenth of a million, meaning 100,000 people promote it, meaning that 1/10,000 of the people promote it.

Its just that its that 1/10,000 of Muslims that are heard, or I should say its that 1/10,000 of Muslims that people (Bush) want to hear.
Billy Hill
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
The vast majority of Muslims denounce it, I can guarantee you that, its just that not many are willing to risk their lives to do it.


What part of "openly or publicly" do you not understand when it comes to "denouncing" something???

dictionary.com wrote:
de·nounce /dɪˈnaʊns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-nouns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -nounced, -nounc·ing.
1. to condemn or censure openly or publicly: to denounce a politician as morally corrupt.


I'll take you up on your guarantee.

You show me half as many public denouncements of terrorism by Muslims, (not countries, individuals) as there are terrorism attacks, and I'll consider changing my mind.

I don't think you can do it, therefore your so-called guarantee is worth exactly squat.

For your information, there were 44 Jihad attacks this week, and over 200 so far this month in 13 countries against 5 different religions which left over 1,100 dead bodies and at least as many critical injuries, including women and children.

Here's just the last couple of days:

Quote:

12/18/2007 (Yala, Thailand) - Four local guards are shot to death by Muslim radicals, who then behead one of the bodies.
12/18/2007 (Farah, Afghanistan) - Fifteen Afghans guarding a fuel tanker are murdered in cold blood by a Taliban ambush.
12/17/2007 (Mogadishu, Somalia) - Three children in their mother are among a dozen civilians killed when suspected Islamists shell a marketplace.
12/17/2007 (Yala, Thailand) - A migrant worker is murdered by Islamic terrorists.
12/17/2007 (Ghazni, Afghanistan) - Two local cops are gunned down by religious extremists.
12/17/2007 (Banda, Pakistan) - Two children are killed during a rocket attack by Islamic militants.


Do you see other religions doing that?

Um, no. You don't. Only "Islam"
horseatingweeds
palavra wrote:
horseatingweeds wrote:


I don't think you understand what logic is palavra. What you say here is just stupid. I can't believe I'm trying you help you here but listen. First, Jesus ordered the demons out of a person and they went into the pig who them killed themselves, as if the demons compelled them to do so. Second, what in your brain leads you to believe that, assuming a leader of any kind killed pigs, his killing of pigs would somehow lead his followers to kill people?


but when Jesus let the spirits go into a heard of pigs, he knew all of those innocent pigs are going to drown.Jesus is guilty himself for the drowning of the pigs.
i think those innocent pigs deserve mercy more than those bad spirits.


You're right... Jesus should have allowed the man to suffer for the rest of his life being tormented by spirits. Those poor pigs. He stole months from their lives - before they were butchered....

palavra wrote:
why don't you ask your questions to those people
then all of us can learn how they got this stupid exorsism idea.
there are thousands of example of this kind of news in google.


Ask them what? How they use the Bible to rip people off? Regardless, for every article you find on google about exorcism, or any abuse of any religion, how many articles are there on violent and / or oppressive Islamists?

palavra wrote:

then why usa invade iraq?
is there any mass descruction weapens?
no
Was there any link between al-qaide and saddam?
no,actually there is a link with saudia but they are your good ally.
the only reason, Saddam didn't allow the inspectors to search for weapons.
if usa ask to Russia , China ,israel or even Turkiye
will those governments let to inspectors search for their weapons?
no.


Crying out loud palavra...

Because Iraq posed a threat and the US thought he had weapons. They told his "let us check." Sadam said "ok" but didn't follow through. He couldn't let Iran know that he didn't have weapons. Bush and Sadam pushed each other into corners. If Bush didn't attack, his words whould have proven empty and he knew he couldn't let his words be empty fighting the FIM.

WMD in Iraq - not really. Just some old garbage gas rounds.

Al Qaeda and Sadam, not so much. Different sects but both enemies of the US and thus friends eventually.

Saudi? Yes ally. The Al Qaeda link is with some of its board rich young men. Go figure.

Russia China Israel and Turkey are not threatening dictatorships who have tried expanding just a few years ago.

HalfBloodPrince wrote:
The vast majority of Muslims denounce it, I can guarantee you that, its just that not many are willing to risk their lives to do it. There are over one billion Muslims in the world; I don't think that even a tenth of a million, meaning 100,000 people promote it, meaning that 1/10,000 of the people promote it.

Its just that its that 1/10,000 of Muslims that are heard, or I should say its that 1/10,000 of Muslims that people (Bush) want to hear.


Or are the Muslims he must hear. It's way more than 100,000 people actively supporting it so there is certainly more latently supporting it. That many people willing to do harm to the the free makes it necessary for the leader of the US to listen closely.

What you say is true, many Muslims don't support the militants but are afraid to go against the grain in their society. That is exactly Billy's point. Him saying the Islamic world supports the militants doesn't mean a majority of them personally do. It just means that's the collective attitude.

I can't help but to agree with this. Where I live there are plenty of Muslims. When I was in school there were the few intelligent people, as with any group, but then there was those who talked about how the Jews run the US and everything the US makes is crap. Constant bashing.

After 9-11???? This didn't change. The Muslims who talked about it on their own just blamed it on the Jews....

Islam has a serious problem. A prominent and vocal group of them wants to kill or convert. Anyone who claims to follow Islam has a responsibility to the legitimacy of their peaceful religion to loudly denounce the terror tactics. That's not the case.

I'm not denouncing Islam. From what I understand Jihadists are not to kill an unarmed soldier, destroy a building, or even harm a green tree. Of course, from what I also understand, killing non-believers is rewarded. Can anyone clarify this?
HalfBloodPrince
Billy Hill wrote:
Um, no. You don't. Only "Islam"


Its not Islam doing it; Islam is the name of the religion. Its people. Its like saying that if a Hindu commited a crime, Hinduism commited the crime.
Billy Hill
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:
Um, no. You don't. Only "Islam"


Its not Islam doing it; Islam is the name of the religion. Its people. Its like saying that if a Hindu commited a crime, Hinduism commited the crime.


Islamic terrorism is inspired by the concept of 'lesser Jihad' (holy warfare against the enemies of Allah and Islam), and is widely accepted in the Islamic world.

According to the FBI, the definition of terrorism is:

Quote:
"Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."


The religion of Islam fulfills each and every criteria of the above-mentioned definition of terrorism. The following quotes will amply demonstrate this statement. Ever since Islam was founded it has left behind a legacy of violent atrocities and horrible crimes. The holy book of the Muslims, the Koran, contains specific instructions on how to loot, pillage, plunder, rape, torture and murder in order to further the interests of Islam . It can clearly be called a specific instruction manual of terrorism.

Quote:
(Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."


Quote:
(Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."


Quote:
(Koran 69:30-37) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."



Quote:
(Koran 69:30-37) "(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat."



Quote:
(Koran 5: 33-34) "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is forgiving, merciful."


Quote:
(Koran 22: 19-22) "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."


Quote:
(Koran 76: 4) "Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers chains, yokes and a blazing fire."


Shall I go on?
HalfBloodPrince
So wait...one second your saying you don't hate Islam, but hate the 'RIMs', and the next second your quoting mis-interpreted translations of the holy Book? The Quran and the Bible are very similar my friend. Did you ever wonder why the Vatican has never released the ORIGINAL Bible? Because it has signs and prophecies of the coming of prophet Muhammad in it. But the fabricated copies simply took that out to show Christianity as the last religion from God.

The Quran states that Christianity canceled out Judaism, and Islam canceled out Christianity, not to say its a wrong religion.

Quote:
The Qur'ān retells stories of many of the people and events recounted in Jewish and Christian sacred books (Tanakh, Bible) and devotional literature (Apocrypha, Midrash), although it differs in many details. Adam, Enoch, Noah, Heber, Shelah, Abraham, Lot, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Jethro, David, Solomon, Elijah, Elisha, Jonah, Aaron, Moses, Ezra, Zechariah, Jesus, and John the Baptist are mentioned in the Qur'an as prophets of God (see Prophets of Islam). Muslims believe the common elements or resemblances between the Bible and other Jewish and Christian writings and Islamic dispensations is due to the common divine source, and that the Christian or Jewish texts were authentic divine revelations given to prophets. According to the Qur'ān
“ It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). 3:3 ”

Muslims believe that those texts were neglected, corrupted (tahrif) or altered in time by the Jews and Christians and have been replaced by God's final and perfect revelation, which is the Qur'ān.


And those quotes you supplied are all out of context, in which many things seem wrong. Many passages in the Bible which are sincere, but when out of context, seem bad.
horseatingweeds
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
The Quran and the Bible are very similar my friend. Did you ever wonder why the Vatican has never released the ORIGINAL Bible?


Only in that who ever wrote the Quran had evidently also read the first 10 books of the Bible.

HalfBloodPrince wrote:

Because it has signs and prophecies of the coming of prophet Muhammad in it. But the fabricated copies simply took that out to show Christianity as the last religion from God.


I say you should support this random little tid-bit.... And you'll have to be more precise than, "changed the Bible."

The new testament, book wide, is about as sturdy a historical document can be. The only valid controversy is in which documents were put together as the new testament, concatenated, and much of that controversy has little validity with few possible exceptions.
palavra
horseatingweeds wrote:
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
The Quran and the Bible are very similar my friend. Did you ever wonder why the Vatican has never released the ORIGINAL Bible?


Only in that who ever wrote the Quran had evidently also read the first 10 books of the Bible.



this is a funny claim
just like Dante did.

---maybe you know dante put Muhammed to hell (inferno) in his book.
why?
because he believe Muahmmed was actually a christian and only because he hadn't been selected as Pope, he created a new religion.

if you can prove this funny claim,-Only in that who ever wrote the Quran had evidently also read the first 10 books of the Bible.
-you can stop all muslim threat Question to your civilization. Wink
you know there are a lots of orientalists who know islam and sources of islam very well.
check their books.
try hard?
ask excortist for help Surprised
horseatingweeds
Ok palavra. Have you read either. The Quran was written in 620 something. It talks about many of the same stories as the Bible. I don't see what's so funny about that 'claim.'
AftershockVibe
horseatingweeds wrote:
Ok palavra. Have you read either. The Quran was written in 620 something. It talks about many of the same stories as the Bible. I don't see what's so funny about that 'claim.'


This is a silly discussion. Most of the old testament is an almost exact copy of the Jewish Torah texts. Oh wait, I wonder why...
a.) Moses
b.) Judaism, Christianity, Islam and any other religion you care to name incorporated moral stories (fables) of the time period to teach what they thought to be correct behaviour.
Moonspider
AftershockVibe wrote:


This is a silly discussion. Most of the old testament is an almost exact copy of the Jewish Torah texts.


I'm assuming you mean the entire Tanakh, not just the Torah. (The Torah consists of the five books of Moses.) The Old Testament is not a copy. It is the Tanakh, which includes the Torah texts. Christians didn't rewrite it. The Old Testament is the same as the Tanakh because it is the same texts.

Respectfully,
M
horseatingweeds
AftershockVibe wrote:
horseatingweeds wrote:
Ok palavra. Have you read either. The Quran was written in 620 something. It talks about many of the same stories as the Bible. I don't see what's so funny about that 'claim.'


This is a silly discussion. Most of the old testament is an almost exact copy of the Jewish Torah texts. Oh wait, I wonder why...
a.) Moses
b.) Judaism, Christianity, Islam and any other religion you care to name incorporated moral stories (fables) of the time period to teach what they thought to be correct behaviour.


Like Moon said, the old testament and the Tanakh are the same set of books. Jesus studied them.

My point is that the Quran is nothing like the Bible. It tells similar stories using the same names as the Bible, and was written in 620 something. Again, it doesn't us the same books, it just uses similar stories.
The Islam profit had it written down after he heard it from an angle - I think Gabriel, according to the Quran.
wumingsden
Important Notice!

I have removed offensive, insulting, or flaming language from this thread.

If more reports are created on this thread then its likely that it will be closed.

Please discuss facts and your opinions in a mature non-offensive manner. If you don't then you'll have to face the consequences.

Wumingsden.
Bikerman
Just a quick clarification.
The Tanakh is not quite the same as the Old Testament. The Catholic OT includes the deutero-canonical books* which are not in the Tanakh, whilst the Protestant OT differs in the order of the books and the numeration of the verses.
It's a slightly nit-picking point, I know, but this is simply an attempt to forestall any future misunderstandings.
Can I also make a plea for this to be kept civil - the debate is interesting and I'll chip-in where I can, but not if people are insulting each other.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh#Comparison_to_Pre-Christian_and_Christian_sources
palavra
horseatingweeds wrote:
Ok palavra. Have you read either. The Quran was written in 620 something. It talks about many of the same stories as the Bible. I don't see what's so funny about that 'claim.'

as a muslim,i read quran many times and i read bible also a few times.
yes there are some places nearly same in quran and bible.
and when you think bible is 600 years older than quran you may think quran takes the stories-passages- from bible.

firstly you believe bibles were written by people ; we believe bible also was a book inspirated by God like quran.Later some people changed (corrupt ) the real bible.

there are a lots of orientalist who know islam and history of islam better than their names ,they even couldn't claim or proof this idea.There is no even a small historical evidence about this.Only words.

In Muhammed times ,some opponents of islam also claimed this.
they told; ok. this quran is marvelous but Muhammed did't write it himself or it wasn't isnprited by God.
he took it from a christian -foreign-slave.
Quran answers them

"We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear."

in those days if opponents of islam could prove this they would be victorious against islam.
HalfBloodPrince
Judaism, Christianity,and Islam are the only pure religions from God, along with their books. All three are the word of God, the Quran being the most updated.
Moonspider
Bikerman wrote:
Just a quick clarification.
The Tanakh is not quite the same as the Old Testament. The Catholic OT includes the deutero-canonical books* which are not in the Tanakh, whilst the Protestant OT differs in the order of the books and the numeration of the verses.
It's a slightly nit-picking point, I know, but this is simply an attempt to forestall any future misunderstandings.
Can I also make a plea for this to be kept civil - the debate is interesting and I'll chip-in where I can, but not if people are insulting each other.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh#Comparison_to_Pre-Christian_and_Christian_sources


Absolutely. I had originally written "exact" but removed that adjective for the very reason you mentioned. Thanks for the citation.

Respectfully,
M
Bikerman
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
Judaism, Christianity,and Islam are the only pure religions from God, along with their books. All three are the word of God, the Quran being the most updated.

Hmmm, the problem with that view is that the God of Judaism is not the same as the God of Christianity.
(I don't know the Quran well enough to comment on the God of Islam but I suspect it is also different to the other two).

An example of an important major difference would be that Christians see Jesus as part of the 'Trinity' which is God. Jews do not. The writings of the New Testament are, therefore, the word of God only if you are a Christian - not if you are Jewish.
LimpFish
correct me if im wrong. but to say that the quran is equal to the bible, but more updated, is kinda weird in my opinion. Jesus was the perfect human, being both God and human at the same time. he was a role model in every aspect of life. what was muhammed? I admit that I havent read all of the quran but I read some parts and what I remember, he robbed and killed people in the desert... good role model? a prophet bigger than Jesus who lived a life when no one could blame him for anything? I dont get it.
Billy Hill
LimpFish wrote:
what was muhammed?


Not my words, but from what I've read of the Quran, he was a pedophile, rapist, murderer, thief, etc. aka Prophet of Terror.
palavra
http://www.infinitelight.org/

Mohammed was the best role model for all human kind.

if you really want to know something about him check this site.
but if you want to decieve yourself no one can help you.
you can keep lie and slander yourself. It is no harm for the sun.
Billy Hill
palavra wrote:


Mohammed was the best role model for all human kind.




That's a pretty broad, and inaccurate statement. I'll have to differ with you there, buddy. In fact, I'd go as far as to say I'll be teaching my kids about the incessant intolerance muhammad brought to the world.
AftershockVibe
Billy Hill wrote:
That's a pretty broad, and inaccurate statement. I'll have to differ with you there, buddy. In fact, I'd go as far as to say I'll be teaching my kids about the incessant intolerance muhammad brought to the world.


Thus instilling your own personal intolerance. Way to go Dad. Wink

Heheh, "Their intolerance will not be tolerated!"
Billy Hill
AftershockVibe wrote:

Thus instilling your own personal intolerance. Way to go Dad. Wink


Make no mistake, I will be teaching them both the good AND the bad sides of Islam and muhammad, as I will be teaching them the good AND bad sides of Christianity. Thing is, the bad side of Christianity is in the past, and the bad side of Islam is very, very much in the present.

To clarify, in this country, the bad side of Islam is much more visible because of the intolerance of the radical muslims, aka terrorists, which is also shown on this board any time anyone says anything remotely negative about islam, muhammad or what ever.

Perhaps by the time they're old enough to really understand, enough peaceful muslims will get a pair and stand up to those that are ruining their religion. I won't be holding my breath, but hey, it could happen. :naw: Wink
Billy Hill
Billy Hill wrote:
...Make no mistake, I will be teaching them both the good AND the bad sides of Islam and muhammad, as I will be teaching them the good AND bad sides of Christianity. Thing is, the bad side of Christianity is in the past, and the bad side of Islam is very, very much in the present.
...


Actually, the more I think about it... when you consider the meaning of "terrorism"

Quote:
"Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."


The religion of Islam fulfills each and every criteria of the above-mentioned definition.

Ever since Islam was founded it has left behind a legacy of violent atrocities and horrible crimes. Not unlike Christianity, which has since grown out of it. The holy book of the Muslims, the Koran, contains specific instructions on how to loot, pillage, plunder, rape, torture and murder in order to further the interests of Islam . It can clearly be called a specific instruction manual of terrorism by those terms. Read the following excerpts...

Quote:
(Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

(Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

(Koran 69:30-37) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

(Koran 69:30-37) "(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat."

(Koran 5: 33-34) "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is forgiving, merciful."

(Koran 22: 19-22) "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."

(Koran 76: 4) "Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers chains, yokes and a blazing fire."


The above verses clearly state extreme terrorist activities, as they contain nothing but detailed recipes of horrific torture. Cutting off the hands and feet of individuals and then making them walk and jump, pouring boiling waters over their victims, making them drink it, burning them alive, inserting hot iron rods into their bodies, dismemberment and disembowelment, genital mutilation etc. are common Islamic practices.

:edit:

Yeah, yeah... we know, everything is taken out of context, isn't it?? Wink
Bikerman
Billy Hill wrote:
Actually, the more I think about it... when you consider the meaning of "terrorism"

Quote:
"Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."


The religion of Islam fulfills each and every criteria of the above-mentioned definition.
Well a couple of points;
a) The US does not accept that definition of terrorism (though personally I think it is OK). Why? Because it would include lots of actions that the US has engaged in or sponsored over the last few decades. The Iraq war would, under this definition, be terrorism. The US insists that terrorism cannot be practiced by a state - specifically to exclude actions such as Israel's "targeted assasination" policy, the Iraq war and similar.
b) Unlawful according to whom?
c) How would this distinguish between freedom fighters and terrorists?
AftershockVibe
Quote:
Thing is, the bad side of Christianity is in the past, and the bad side of Islam is very, very much in the present.


And this is where we have the problem. Is this really the case?
And more to the point, do you sincerely believe that?

As Bikerman points out, according to the popular definition of terrorism no Western country (ie Christian) can commit an act of terrorism by definition. Terrorists "smuggle" arms into Iraq... the US "sells" munitions to the Israeli government.

Now, by no means does this excuse the mentality of murderers (again, bombers "murder", soldiers "kill") but to say that Christian evil is behind us but Islamic evil is here and now is, to me, outrageous.

Religion is not the issue here. You list a load of Koran verses which are not so much "out of context" but can put into the context of whoever wishes to use them. The same thing can be done with the Bible or any other religious text.

For example:
Deuteronomy 21:10 wrote:
When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Now, if I were Iraqi and trying to rally people to get the US troops out of my country I could assert not only that the Bible endorses war, but also forced marriage and rape. I could even remove the nicer bits and select choice quotes and I would still be telling the "truth" - The Bible does say this, no priest will say it doesn't! - Christianity is a dangerous blight on the world! Wait! Deuteronomy is the 5th part of the Torah too! Israel is a self-proclaimed Jewish state! They're bombing us and the US supports them! They are a country entirely constructed to endorse these ideals. Ideals of War, Forced Marriage and Rape! We must fight this!

... But I'm not, because that would be ridiculous.

I'm going to say again: Religion is not the problem. People are the problem.
People use religion as a justification to do things they already want to do. It is an excuse not a cause.

People who are happy with their lives do not blow themselves up. People who are UNHAPPY (desperate, lonely, whatever) and easily led blow themselves up.

Guess where the guys who are most satisfied with their state of living are:
a.) Prefab concrete farm shelters in War-torn country bombed by US B52s?
or
b.) A condo appartment in uptown New York with a Wal-Mart on the corner?

You frequently say that Muslims should speak out louder to convince us they are not all terrorists. Undoubtedly there is be Muslims who say that the US should speak out to convince Muslims that they are not ruled by greed, determined to take away land which have lived on for generations (Middle east).

Two viewpoints: each shouting "It's their fault!" whilst simultaneously failing to address the (percieved or otherwise) injustices done to the other.

And that is why continual flame-inducing threads like this one make me despair.
Billy Hill
AftershockVibe wrote:
Is this really the case?


Is that NOT the case?

Show me how Christianity has thousands of "Christians" blowing themselves up in schools, shopping malls and public streets, or any other place specifically targeting women and children for no other reason than to convert people to Christianity...

Then show me how RIMs have not been responsible for over 10,000 terrorist attacks since 9/11...

Quote:
Weekly Jihad Report for Dec. 15 - Dec. 21
Jihad Attacks: 34
Dead Bodies: 210
Critically Injured: 353


Ignorance is bliss.
AftershockVibe
Your post is drivel. I quit.

Anything I add to this thread will simply be repeating what I posted above and by the looks of it you haven't even read that!

I'll won't explain how RIMs (whatever they are) haven't been responsible for 10,000 "terrorist" attacks since 9/11 because it's not relevant to anything I've said.
wumingsden
-locked- until further notice.
In the meantime do NOT create any similar threads.

Thank you.
Wumingsden.
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