Personally, I am surprised this didn't start in North America. Spain tried it, but the Supreme Court pounced on it. Scary stuff when people can just create religion... what do you think? I am actually surprised about how global they are, that BBC reporter who lost it with him has accused them of spying and been harassed. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6650545.stm )
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7133867.stm
| Quote: |
The ministers have asked Germany's domestic intelligence agency to examine whether the Church's legal status as an association could be challenged.
Scientology is not recognised as a religion in Germany.
A Church of Scientology statement said the ministers were "completely out of step with the rest of the world".
The attempted ban is "a blatant attempt at justifying the on-going and never-ending discrimination against the Church of Scientology and its members in Germany," said the Church in a statement.
Critics accuse the organisation of cult-type practices and exploiting followers for financial gain. |
edit by rvec: please use quote tags when copy-pasting That's good news! Scientology itself works more like a mafia than a religion; there have been some really frightening testimonies of people who got their lives screwed by the scientology drones. At least they aren't going to be able to do the same legally in germany.
It's a nice step to try the same later in the rest of the EU.
Well the constitutions of all western countries state explicitly that everyone may follow the religion he wants to, and, as long as they do not break any other law of that country, are therefore protected by it s very law..
| LumberJack wrote: |
| Scary stuff when people can just create religion... |
I actually think that statement is kind of funny. All religions were "just created" at some point in time. 
As for Scientology.. I really don't know anything about it other than the few pieces I've seen on the news or TV(which make it sound like a completely ridiculous religion). As long as Scientologists(?) aren't affecting my rights or other's, I really couldn't care less what someone practices.
| Quote: |
| ...and exploiting followers for financial gain. |
Sounds like any late night Christian TV ad.aahhh welll scientology ........... its a concept of the future and if that is banned you have to think of germany as a dead nation....
| web_harman wrote: |
| aahhh welll scientology ........... its a concept of the future and if that is banned you have to think of germany as a dead nation.... |
lol are you being serious? If so, you should probably read up on what scientology preaches.Problems with Scientology traditionally revolve around Tax*. In the US, UK and many other countries, religious 'Churches' are granted tax-exemptions where non-religious businesses are not. This has driven attempts by the IRS, for example, to make sure Scientology is not officially accepted as a religion in the US.
*Personally I don't care what people believe - it only becomes an issue to me when those beliefs impinge upon personal freedoms. I would prefer, of course, rationality, but I accept that many people have irrational beliefs for one reason or another and do not think such beliefs should be persecuted - but they should, like all beliefs, be rigorously challenged and held up to scutiny.
| liljp617 wrote: |
| web_harman wrote: | | aahhh welll scientology ........... its a concept of the future and if that is banned you have to think of germany as a dead nation.... |
lol are you being serious? If so, you should probably read up on what scientology preaches. |
No kidding. i remember a few years ago i wanted to know what scientology was. I did a search and only came up with inspiring generalities of improving your life with their teachings an techniques. I was considering giving one of their books a read.... Thankfully, I went past the top Google 20 and started to learn some freaky stuff, people claiming that a loved one had their life destroyed by the 'church.'
Eventually I learned more and it's absolutely amazing that people would swallow such an arbitrary Buck Rogers concoction of crap. If you start to get pulled in, don't. Theatons are dead alien souls. A high theaton level means you have few theatons.
Anyway, a free society shouldn't ban it. It damn well should ban many of its practices though.... | horseatingweeds wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | | web_harman wrote: | | aahhh welll scientology ........... its a concept of the future and if that is banned you have to think of germany as a dead nation.... |
lol are you being serious? If so, you should probably read up on what scientology preaches. |
No kidding. i remember a few years ago i wanted to know what scientology was. I did a search and only came up with inspiring generalities of improving your life with their teachings an techniques. I was considering giving one of their books a read.... Thankfully, I went past the top Google 20 and started to learn some freaky stuff, people claiming that a loved one had their life destroyed by the 'church.'
Eventually I learned more and it's absolutely amazing that people would swallow such an arbitrary Buck Rogers concoction of crap. If you start to get pulled in, don't. Theatons are dead alien souls. A high theaton level means you have few theatons.
Anyway, a free society shouldn't ban it. It damn well should ban many of its practices though.... |
I am all for not giving them tax exemptions though 
I'll give you Germans a pat on the back for this law. 
Scientology is completely nutty and an fraud. | bigdan wrote: |
| I'll give you Germans a pat on the back for this law. Scientology is completely nutty and an fraud. |
And they will argue that every 'religion' is far fetched. They will also point out to others that Scientology is not as much of a religion as it is a type of psychology. They may also blame your attitude on your low theatin level, which means you have many dead alien spirits in you making your life bad.
Then their army of lawyers will sue your ass for oppressing their religion.... 
Banning anything called religion is a bad idea, in my opinion. It seems quite obvious the implications. Preventing certain practices, though, is essential. But with scientology, the trouble is they are slick. Lots of money and lawyers.Most of the problems with scientology revolve around the tax exempt status of religions. I agree that banning belief systems is a very bad idea, and further agree that the emphasis should be on preventing abusive practices. To that end I support the move to deny scientology the status of tax-exemption by allowing it's definition as a religion, but I would not support any attempt to ban it outright.
| Bikerman wrote: |
| Most of the problems with scientology revolve around the tax exempt status of religions. I agree that banning belief systems is a very bad idea, and further agree that the emphasis should be on preventing abusive practices. To that end I support the move to deny scientology the status of tax-exemption by allowing it's definition as a religion, but I would not support any attempt to ban it outright. |
Totally agree. Germany is flat out wrong for attempting to ban Scientology (assuming, of course, that nothing Scientologists actually do violates German law).
However i would say that the US is wrong as well for refusing Scientology religious status just to avoid giving them a tax break. That's just hypocritical, and quite frankly, religious bigotry.
All tax breaks to religious are morally wrong. If you got rid of them altogether, then who cares whether Scientology is officially a religion or not? Not i. | Indi wrote: |
However i would say that the US is wrong as well for refusing Scientology religious status just to avoid giving them a tax break. That's just hypocritical, and quite frankly, religious bigotry.
|
The US DOES give Scientology religious status though. For several year the IRS considered the organization a commercial enterprise. They do, after all, charge for their services and describe themselves as more of a psychology than religion. But that changed, likely due to Scientology's slew of lawyers....
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/nytimes.htmlI don't care what others believe as long as it doesn't infringe on any of my rights (or anyone's rights that I know). It doesn't seem equitable to me to ban one religion, while keeping other religions with what some could argue equally ridiculous beliefs. How is that fair?
It seems Scientology has gotten a really bad rep from popular TV shows such as South Park. People watch shows like this blindly and automatically believe everything the show is saying without researching the topic themselves.
According to the definition set up by Scientology, Scientology is "the study and handling of the spirit in relationship to itself, others and all of life." Scientology philosophy encompasses all aspects of life from the point of view of the spirit; including a spiritual rehabilitation philosophy and techniques, morals, ethics, detoxification, education and management. Is this not what other religions aim to do?
And some may argue, "Well, that's not what people who actually practice Scientology do." Well, what is meant in theory and what is actually practiced is often much different in most religions...and Scientology is no different.
Don't get me wrong, I don't believe with everything Scientology has to say nor would I consider "joining." I just feel that people are treating this "religion" (or whatever you want to call it) far differently than any other religion (i.e., Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, etc.) for no reason at all other than their preconceived notions of what Scientology is trying to teach.
Research for yourself people and you will find that Scientology does not make alot of sense in many areas, but it does have some good teachings, much like any other religion.
I would agree with most of what you say. Certainly it is unfair to ban a religion on the grounds that it makes ridiculous claims or assertions. I am opposed to the banning of ANY system of thought or belief - even those which I personally find objectionable. This is what we mean by freedom of speech and expression. These freedoms are under constant attack from the state - at the moment the excuse used is anti-terrorism and this has been used both here in the UK and in the US to pass laws which attack personal freedoms fundamentally (here in the UK, for example, it is now illegal to posses material which 'may be of use to a terrorist').
Like Indi, I also believe that no religion should enjoy a tax-exempt status and think that it is ethically insupportable for such institutions to be subsidised by the general population, may of whom, like myself, do not share their core beliefs.
As for scientology and it's beliefs - as a science-fiction fan I have many of L Ron Hubbard's books in my library but I wish he had stuck to his day job.
I reckon its a load of NOT good stuff
I mean there is no freedom of speech. Tom Cruise and other high profile members always threatning the media not to publish what goes on..sounds like a CULT to me!
| Coclus wrote: |
| Well the constitutions of all western countries state explicitly that everyone may follow the religion he wants to, and, as long as they do not break any other law of that country, are therefore protected by it s very law.. |
There would be the problem with Scientology.I certainly agree with many of the above statements suggesting that the attempt to ban a religion would set a dangerous precedent (or perhaps a futile one), considering that most constitutions in western nations explicitly allow for freedom of religion. But Scientology, in my opinion, should rather be thought of as a sect, with most of the negative connotations that go with that word. Reading up on what ex-scientologists have to say about their membership in this "church", it seems difficult to reconcile this with other freedoms also expressed in same constitutions.
| MaxStirner wrote: |
| I certainly agree with many of the above statements suggesting that the attempt to ban a religion would set a dangerous precedent (or perhaps a futile one), considering that most constitutions in western nations explicitly allow for freedom of religion. But Scientology, in my opinion, should rather be thought of as a sect, with most of the negative connotations that go with that word. Reading up on what ex-scientologists have to say about their membership in this "church", it seems difficult to reconcile this with other freedoms also expressed in same constitutions. |
It's a far cry from a religion in my opinion...at least when compared to other modern day religions.Scientology makes me giggle.... Still I don't really think it should be banned.
I myself would say Scientology is rubbish. But then scientologists would probably say my religion is rubbish as well. Point is..i think..governments need to stop telling men what they can or cannot believe, think, and take. Much like prohibition, to supress it will only cause those who use it want to use it even more.
religion and governments should never mix
| Bryan_Bezzle wrote: |
| I myself would say Scientology is rubbish. But then scientologists would probably say my religion is rubbish as well. Point is..i think..governments need to stop telling men what they can or cannot believe, think, and take. Much like prohibition, to supress it will only cause those who use it want to use it even more. |
| Bannik wrote: |
| religion and governments should never mix |
Both statements are quite true but, in my opinion, they beg the question since the matter before the authorities and other concerned parties in Germany is: Is it a religion? ...or a sect? ...or just a good money-making scheme? Are the many reports of indoctrination, coercion and brain-washing of Scientology members true? Does this organization condone if not actively encourage unconstitutional and illegal activities? Not everything can be excused by simply claiming religious motivations.Germany was considering banning Bibles from schools due to the extreme content in there. So this doesn't surprise me one bit.
At first I considered Scientology just another tax dodging joke. Then I considered it a money generating scam. Now, whatever the truth, it's becoming quite disconcerting how its spreading. How the hell people can subscribe to something created by a failed sci-fi writer as a bet I don't know. Really quite sad really.
| achowles wrote: |
Germany was considering banning Bibles from schools due to the extreme content in there. So this doesn't surprise me one bit.
At first I considered Scientology just another tax dodging joke. Then I considered it a money generating scam. Now, whatever the truth, it's becoming quite disconcerting how its spreading. How the hell people can subscribe to something created by a failed sci-fi writer as a bet I don't know. Really quite sad really. |
Agreed. I'm sure germany has their reasons, but it's kind of pushing them into an arguement they may not want to be a part of.
