Discover Islam - The Fastest Growing Religion in the World!
All praise is due to Allah, Sustainer of the Universe, Who informs us that:
"Those who believe in GOD, and hold fast to Him, He will admit them into mercy from Him, and grace, and will guide them to Him in a straight path."
[Glorious Quran 4:175]
For the millions of years humans have lived, some of them always believe in GOD. Yet some do not, what makes these disbelievers refuse to believe? What makes the believers believe?
Many people have come and gone trying to explain GOD and failing.
Surely something must keep the believers clinging on to truth?
While religions such as Christianity demand blind faith and say: "Don't think, pray". Although this results in high spirituality, it closes off the urge to seek for Truth.
Atheism says: "Don't pray, think". Although this results in a great thirst for knowledge, it closes off spirituality.
Islam says "pray and think". Which is a perfect combination. If Islam disagrees with correct proven science, one tiny bit, then there is instant conflict. Only an All-Knowing Being could create a religion that fits perfectly with science. Islam agrees perfectly with science. See http://www.thedaughterofthenile.com/. (link dead...mirror will be attempted to be found) Is it important for a religion to be true to be fastest growing ?
just a question. I thought it was not as good an invitation as it could be. The most important thing is to ask oneself the real truth behind this universe. Once a person starts to search the answer of this question, where this all came from, who created it, why was it created, when will it end, where we come from, where will we go etc. Its jsut a reality that so many ignore and once if we start going deep into it, we will search for the truth and then we can find the correct answer, certainly.
| Quote: |
| Discover Islam - The Fastest Growing Religion in the World! |
The only reason it is so quickly growing is the uncontrollable population growth in the middle east due to lack of education about contraception. | Soulfire wrote: |
| Quote: | | Discover Islam - The Fastest Growing Religion in the World! |
The only reason it is so quickly growing is the uncontrollable population growth in the middle east due to lack of education about contraception. |
That's not what it means by 'fastest-growing', it means that more people convert to Islam than any other religion. And there are more Muslims in different parts of the world than the Middle East (1 billion in total). And I can assure you, there are not 1 billion people in the Middle East alone. | HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
| That's not what it means by 'fastest-growing', it means that more people convert to Islam than any other religion. |
Um, what? 
Do some research on Carl Jung and you'll have my personal answer. Would take much too long to type here.
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
| Soulfire wrote: | | Quote: | | Discover Islam - The Fastest Growing Religion in the World! |
The only reason it is so quickly growing is the uncontrollable population growth in the middle east due to lack of education about contraception. |
That's not what it means by 'fastest-growing', it means that more people convert to Islam than any other religion. And there are more Muslims in different parts of the world than the Middle East (1 billion in total). And I can assure you, there are not 1 billion people in the Middle East alone. |
I don't think the figures bear this out....for example:-
Religion.......Adherents...............Converts...........Ratio
Islam............1,188,242,789.............865,558........1,372
Christianity...1,999,563,838...........2,501,396.........799
A dataset for religion growth can be found here:
http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm
It seems to show that Islam is not, in fact, the fastest growing religion at all - Zoroastrianism is. | muslim4l wrote: |
| Only an All-Knowing Being could create a religion that fits perfectly with science. Islam agrees perfectly with science. |
Not really. I think I could do it. But then, I am a scientist.
muslim41. I also believe that there are a number of factual errors in both the Bible and the Quran. I read a nice article recently pointing out how close the Quran is to reality (especially by comparison the the Bible) but I would need a better link than the one you gave to argue this consistently. As I recall there is some confusion about why pigs are unclean that mentions that pigs retain 98% of the uric acid they create, making them dangerous to eat (obviously Allah, speaking via the prophet Mohammed didn't put it like that as no-one would have known what he was talking about). Certainly I advise anyone really health conscious to avoid bacon, but a pork chop won't hurt anyone.
Anyway, find the link and I'll happily argue it with you.There are flaws in both the Bible + the Koran.
Bearing that in mind, consider a verse from the Koran that (summed up) states that the Koran has no errors and therefore must be from God. Since there are errors in it, it is not from God. It basically defeats itself.
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
| State an error. |
Quran 7: 54 Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
Quran 41: 10 He set on the Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four days
Last edited by Bikerman on Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total | Bikerman wrote: |
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: | | State an error. |
Quran 7: 54 Your gurdian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
Quran 41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four days |
So it was really twelve days?
Who'd have thunkit? 
| Bikerman wrote: |
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: | | State an error. |
Quran 7: 54 Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
Quran 41: 10 He set on the Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four days |
Well, to be fair the creations are different here. It says that Allah created the heavens and earth in Six Days, the earth in two days and and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, (whatever that means) in four days. Three different acts, taking three different times. That's not really an error. | Bru, stuffce wrote: |
| Bikerman wrote: | | HalfBloodPrince wrote: | | State an error. |
Quran 7: 54 Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
Quran 41: 10 He set on the Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four days |
Well, to be fair the creations are different here. It says that Allah created the heavens and earth in Six Days, the earth in two days and and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, (whatever that means) in four days. Three different acts, taking three different times. That's not really an error. |
Yeah, its not an error.
Heaven AND Earth - 6 days
Earth - 2 days
Heaven - 4 days
2 + 4 = 6
Again, the Quran is flawless. | HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
Yeah, its not an error.
Heaven AND Earth - 6 days
Earth - 2 days
Heaven - 4 days
2 + 4 = 6
Again, the Quran is flawless. |
Ermm...don't forget :
Quran 41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two daysThen of course we have
Quran 2: 29 It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; then He turned to the Heavens and made them into seven firmaments
(so, Earth made first, then the Heavens? This, of course, contradicts everything we know about the creation of the Universe. Also the concept of 7 'firmaments' makes no sense according to current knowledge.)
Quran 79: 27 - 30 Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread the earth.
(so here we have the Heavens built first then the Earth - which, of course, makes more sense, but seems to contradict the previous passage)
At first, (ie the time of Adam and Eve) there was just Heaven. Then he made Earth, as a test for the humans (sinners ->hell, righteous->heaven) and then split heaven into several steps.
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
| At first, (ie the time of Adam and Eve) there was just Heaven. Then he made Earth, as a test for the humans (sinners ->hell, righteous->heaven) and then split heaven into several steps. |
OK..let's get it straight then...
1) Creates Heaven (4 days)
2) Creates Earth (2 days)
3) Creates 7 firmaments (2 days)
So is it 8 days in total then?Look, this is MY idea, and it could be wrong for all I know, as could anybody's:
Theres a heaven -> Adam and Eve sin
Earth is created -4 days-
Heaven is split -2 days- [I think because the most righteous of humans ie. Jesus, Mohammed, other prophets, etc... go to the highest levels, etc...]
I believe that Hell has yet to be created.
Of course, this, along with anything we think, could be wrong as the many things God does are far beyond human comprehension.
So when was the Earth and Heaven created? Because from what I learned, it took billions of years for the Earth to be created.
The question is, however, whether the Qu'ran is flawless - that was the point under discussion.
Up to now I have given several verses which seem to me to be inconsistent.
The Earth was created in 2 days (Quran 41: 9). Heavens and Earth created in 6 days (Quran 7: 54) and finally the 7 firmaments in 2 days (Quran 41: 12)....
Last edited by Bikerman on Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
| Billy Hill wrote: |
| So when was the Earth and Heaven created? Because from what I learned, it took billions of years for the Earth to be created. |
No, the Earth was created about 4.5 billion years ago. How long that took depends on what you mean by 'created' - ie you might mean the length of time the Earth took to physically form from the dust and rocks after the Sun fired-up, or you might mean the length of time before life was possible on the Earth or you might mean the length of time before Homo-Sapiens appeared.
It goes without saying, however, that whatever the meaning you attach to the word 'created', it certainly did not take 48 hours. | Bikerman wrote: |
| the length of time the Earth took to physically form from the dust and rocks after the Sun fired-up |
That's the money shot right there.
There is over-whelming evidence of this, so the Q'ran is "flawed", unless it can somehow prove science wrong. | Bikerman wrote: |
Up to now I have given several verses which seem to me to be inconsistent.
|
Peace.
You are telling us that the timing is inconsistent. Let us take a look.
| Quote: |
Quran 7: 54 Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
Quran 41: 10 He set on the Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four days
(Quran 41: 12)....and finally the 7 firmaments in 2 days
|
There is no problem with the timing.
First, God creates the Heavens in 2 days. Then He creates the Earth, including the mountains, in 4 days. God spends 6 days creating.
-The mountains are not regarded as separate. They are part of the creation of the Earth.
-41:10 repeats that God created the Heavens in 7 days. EDIT: I meant 2! stupid typos lol...
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| Quote: |
(so, Earth made first, then the Heavens? This, of course, contradicts everything we know about the creation of the Universe. Also the concept of 7 'firmaments' makes no sense according to current knowledge.)
|
Heaven was made first, then the Earth. Please read the following response:
| http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/six-or-eight-days-of-creation-revisited/ with slight wrote: |
In his translation Yusuf Ali has translated thumma as “moreover”, which is more suited for the context of the verse in question. This is further confirmed by The Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic2. Therefore this certainly lends support to the earlier contention, that “…the processes described in verses 9 and 10 form really one series”.
Imam Al-Baidawi himself had something to say on the issue:
"It is apparent that thumma here refers to difference of the two creations (i.e., that of earth and that of Heaven) not to laxity in time."
So Imam Al-Baidawi asserts that thumma in this context separates the creation of earth and things in it from creation of Heaven as two distinct processes, not that they were separated with time interval.
|
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To sum up...the contradiction is not a timing.
By the way, if you're going to quote from answering islam, which is the source of all the false contradictions listed on the net, which i think you might have done already, you might as well read the responses. Their list has been severely refuted several times. For example: http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/
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Note: The word "yawm" which is translated day, is not literally "day". "Yawm" actually means a general period of time, which although commonly taken to be 24 hours in Arabic, actually can refer to any period of time. This is supported by the Qur'an which says that a day to God is like a 1000 years, and which also says the angels climb to Heaven in a day equalling 50,000 years.
Last edited by loyal on Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total | loyal wrote: |
There is no problem with the timing.
First, God creates the Heavens in 2 days. Then He creates the Earth, including the mountains, in 4 days. God spends 6 days creating.
-The mountains are not regarded as separate. They are part of the creation of the Earth.
-41:10 repeats that God created the Heavens in 7 days. |
OK, so now we have 7 days to create the Heavens whereas you say above that is was 2 days. Which is it?
| Quote: |
Note: The word "yawm" which is translated day, is not literally "day". "Yawm" actually means a general period of time, which although commonly taken to be 24 hours in Arabic, actually can refer to any period of time. This is supported by the Qur'an which says that a day to God is like a 1000 years, and which also says the angels climb to Heaven in a day equalling 50,000 years. |
Still doesn't work though, does it? Whether you assign 1000 or 50,000 years to the 'day' the fact remains that the timescales are wrong....There is no way to prove that there are no 7 firmaments. Since all information that we have about the far away areas of universe is with the help of rediation reaching us, there is no way to find the ends of universe as scientifically, it is apparent that the radiaitons from the corners of unverse cannot reach earth.
So we cannot find the limits of the current known system. How can we ask then that what is beyond the limits. Some thing encompasing the whole universe, may be the second firmament. As initially it was thought that sun is all alone an entity but now it is known that it a small star of a huge galaxy, so we cant say what is beyond our observation.
More over, Quantum theory gives a notion that we cannot be sure of the shape or state of the universe ever as we cannot measure even the position and velocity of a single particle with precision. Much more can be learnt with a research so the point was that 7 firmaments are there but beyond our perception so far. May be in the future, such observations are mede that we can see them in some way.
| Bikerman wrote: |
| loyal wrote: |
There is no problem with the timing.
First, God creates the Heavens in 2 days. Then He creates the Earth, including the mountains, in 4 days. God spends 6 days creating.
-The mountains are not regarded as separate. They are part of the creation of the Earth.
-41:10 repeats that God created the Heavens in 7 days. |
OK, so now we have 7 days to create the Heavens whereas you say above that is was 2 days. Which is it?
|
Huh? Where does it say 7 days to create the heavens? Nowhere.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Note: The word "yawm" which is translated day, is not literally "day". "Yawm" actually means a general period of time, which although commonly taken to be 24 hours in Arabic, actually can refer to any period of time. This is supported by the Qur'an which says that a day to God is like a 1000 years, and which also says the angels climb to Heaven in a day equalling 50,000 years. |
Still doesn't work though, does it? Whether you assign 1000 or 50,000 years to the 'day' the fact remains that the timescales are wrong.... |
You have misunderstood my point. I am saying the word "yawm" in Arabic has no fixed period. It can be any length of time.
-----------------------------
Peace. | loyal wrote: |
| Bikerman wrote: | | loyal wrote: |
There is no problem with the timing.
First, God creates the Heavens in 2 days. Then He creates the Earth, including the mountains, in 4 days. God spends 6 days creating.
-The mountains are not regarded as separate. They are part of the creation of the Earth.
-41:10 repeats that God created the Heavens in 7 days. |
OK, so now we have 7 days to create the Heavens whereas you say above that is was 2 days. Which is it?
|
Huh? Where does it say 7 days to create the heavens? Nowhere. |
Just reading what YOU wrote above...
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Note: The word "yawm" which is translated day, is not literally "day". "Yawm" actually means a general period of time, which although commonly taken to be 24 hours in Arabic, actually can refer to any period of time. This is supported by the Qur'an which says that a day to God is like a 1000 years, and which also says the angels climb to Heaven in a day equalling 50,000 years. |
Still doesn't work though, does it? Whether you assign 1000 or 50,000 years to the 'day' the fact remains that the timescales are wrong.... |
You have misunderstood my point. I am saying the word "yawm" in Arabic has no fixed period. It can be any length of time.
|
So in other words, when it says 2 days and 4 days, the numbers 2 and 4 are completely meaningless because a 'day' or 'yawm' is any period of time you care to choose in each separate case?
4 days could, in fact, be less than 2 days using this system.
Why then would the Qu'ran say 2 days and 4 days instead of just 1 day and 1 day? It is completely illogical. | burqe wrote: |
| There is no way to prove that there are no 7 firmaments. Since all information that we have about the far away areas of universe is with the help of rediation reaching us, there is no way to find the ends of universe as scientifically, it is apparent that the radiaitons from the corners of unverse cannot reach earth. |
Cosmology works on the assumption that there is nothing special about our position in the universe (ie the unverse is isotropic) and that matter is spead evenly (ie the universe is homogeneous) - this is known as the Cosmological principle. Any notion of 7 firmaments would be a violation of this principle. The principle is supported by the observation of the CMB (Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation).
| Quote: |
More over, Quantum theory gives a notion that we cannot be sure of the shape or state of the universe ever as we cannot measure even the position and velocity of a single particle with precision. Much more can be learnt with a research so the point was that 7 firmaments are there but beyond our perception so far. May be in the future, such observations are mede that we can see them in some way. |
Quantum theory is not used when considering the universe on a macro scale because quantum fluctuations average-out when we move up from the atomic scale and the uncertainties over single particles can be treated statistically over multiple such instances.
There is no good reason to suppose there are 7 firmaments and plenty of good reasons to suppose there are not. | Bikerman wrote: |
| loyal wrote: | | Bikerman wrote: | | loyal wrote: |
There is no problem with the timing.
First, God creates the Heavens in 2 days. Then He creates the Earth, including the mountains, in 4 days. God spends 6 days creating.
-The mountains are not regarded as separate. They are part of the creation of the Earth.
-41:10 repeats that God created the Heavens in 7 days. |
OK, so now we have 7 days to create the Heavens whereas you say above that is was 2 days. Which is it?
|
Huh? Where does it say 7 days to create the heavens? Nowhere. |
Just reading what YOU wrote above...
|
My apologies...i made a typo.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Note: The word "yawm" which is translated day, is not literally "day". "Yawm" actually means a general period of time, which although commonly taken to be 24 hours in Arabic, actually can refer to any period of time. This is supported by the Qur'an which says that a day to God is like a 1000 years, and which also says the angels climb to Heaven in a day equalling 50,000 years. |
Still doesn't work though, does it? Whether you assign 1000 or 50,000 years to the 'day' the fact remains that the timescales are wrong.... |
You have misunderstood my point. I am saying the word "yawm" in Arabic has no fixed period. It can be any length of time.
|
So in other words, when it says 2 days and 4 days, the numbers 2 and 4 are completely meaningless because a 'day' or 'yawm' is any period of time you care to choose in each separate case?
4 days could, in fact, be less than 2 days using this system.
Why then would the Qu'ran say 2 days and 4 days instead of just 1 day and 1 day? It is completely illogical.[/quote]
In this case, the period of time would be equal. So God creates the Heavens and Earth in six equal periods of time.
may God bless you. | loyal wrote: |
My apologies...i made a typo.
|
No problem - it would be churlish to use a typo to support an argument so I'll drop that.
| Quote: |
In this case, the period of time would be equal. So God creates the Heavens and Earth in six equal periods of time.
may God bless you. |
In that case it should be possible to say what period of time is meant by 'yarm'. So would you care to oblige? | Bru, stuffce wrote: |
| Certainly I advise anyone really health conscious to avoid bacon, but a pork chop won't hurt anyone. |
...except the pig 
M | Bikerman wrote: |
In that case it should be possible to say what period of time is meant by 'yarm'. So would you care to oblige? |
Peace.
If you are asking me to give the exact period of time for "yawm" in this case, I cannot. It can be any number. However we have two theories, which have many supporters, which tell us how long. Creationism says one "yawm" to create is 24 hours. Evolution says one "yawm" is some million years.
I believe it's the latter. | loyal wrote: |
| Bikerman wrote: |
In that case it should be possible to say what period of time is meant by 'yarm'. So would you care to oblige? |
Peace.
If you are asking me to give the exact period of time for "yawm" in this case, I cannot. It can be any number. However we have two theories, which have many supporters, which tell us how long. Creationism says one "yawm" to create is 24 hours. Evolution says one "yawm" is some million years.
I believe it's the latter. |
Well, not quite true in either case. Some creationists insist on 24 hours, some old-earth creationists support your view. Evolution would not define a yawm because it is a meaningless unit.
Before I go on, though, let's be clear...
you are saying that the earth took 4 yawms and the heavens took 2 yawms...correct? | Bikerman wrote: |
Before I go on, though, let's be clear...
you are saying that the earth took 4 yawms and the heavens took 2 yawms...correct?
|
Yes, i think so.
(I have "I think so", because i am constantly improving my knowledge...not to say i'm wrong by nature..but to say i'm human).
Peace. | loyal wrote: |
| Bikerman wrote: |
Before I go on, though, let's be clear...
you are saying that the earth took 4 yawms and the heavens took 2 yawms...correct?
|
Yes, i think so.
(I have "I think so", because i am constantly improving my knowledge...not to say i'm wrong by nature..but to say i'm human).
Peace. |
OK, so the most charitable interpretation I can give to this is that the universe and the earth took 6 yawms to create.
Current understanding is that the universe is about 13.7 billion years old. That gives us a value for the yawm of about 2.3 billion years. This would put the earth's creation at around 9.13 billion years. We know that the Earth was created around 4.55 billion years ago....Doesn't seem to add up..... | Quote: |
| There is no good reason to suppose there are 7 firmaments and plenty of good reasons to suppose there are not. |
Well we agree that after all we are just supposing things simply because we do not have any mean to understand the ends of this universe.
You say that principal of cosmology states that matter is spread evenly. I think there are huge vaccumes in the universe where there is no matter. More over, I have read that there is more mass around the black holes than any where else in the universe. What is meant be even spread oput here.
It also seems that you beleive that the universe is infinite. If this is so, then the matter should be infinite as well. How this infinite amount of matter was present in a space of zero volume at the time of Big Bang ? it seems to be very illogical.
If we assume that the universe is not infinite, than is there any discovery what is beyond it ? | burqe wrote: |
| Quote: | | There is no good reason to suppose there are 7 firmaments and plenty of good reasons to suppose there are not. |
Well we agree that after all we are just supposing things simply because we do not have any mean to understand the ends of this universe. |
No, we do not agree that at all. I believe that the Universe can be understood.
| Quote: |
You say that principal of cosmology states that matter is spread evenly. I think there are huge vaccumes in the universe where there is no matter. More over, I have read that there is more mass around the black holes than any where else in the universe. What is meant be even spread oput here.
|
You don't really understand the principles of isotropy and homogeneity. There isn't really the time in this forum for me to give you an education in basic physics so let me suggest a few starting points if you are serious about educating yourself on these issues;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_principle
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/cosmology/cp.html
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bb1.html
| Quote: |
| It also seems that you beleive that the universe is infinite. If this is so, then the matter should be infinite as well. How this infinite amount of matter was present in a space of zero volume at the time of Big Bang ? it seems to be very illogical. |
I'm puzzled why you might think I believe the universe is infinite - I have certainly never said so. As for how the Big Bang produced the observable universe then I would suggest that your notions of logic are based on fundamental misunderstandings of physics. Once again, there is not time here to go into the details but I can suggest some starting points:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm
| Quote: |
If we assume that the universe is not infinite, than is there any discovery what is beyond it ? |
I'm not sure what the question is here. If you mean can we know what is beyond the observable universe then the answer is no.* To further suppose, however, that this means there are possibly 6 other 'firmaments' is unwarranted. There is no evidence for such. One might equally well postulate that there is a small plastic pig, an inflatable Barbie-Doll or any other such nonsensical proposition outisde the observable universe.
*I do not rule out the possibility that future developments will result in robust models of the universe which include elements beyond what we currently accept as the 'observable' universe. The fact is, however, that at the moment the limiting speed of c means that we cannot know what lies beyond our observable universe and unless a way around this is found, we have no means to test any hypothetical models. | Bikerman wrote: |
| loyal wrote: | | Bikerman wrote: |
Before I go on, though, let's be clear...
you are saying that the earth took 4 yawms and the heavens took 2 yawms...correct?
|
Yes, i think so.
(I have "I think so", because i am constantly improving my knowledge...not to say i'm wrong by nature..but to say i'm human).
Peace. |
OK, so the most charitable interpretation I can give to this is that the universe and the earth took 6 yawms to create.
Current understanding is that the universe is about 13.7 billion years old. That gives us a value for the yawm of about 2.3 billion years. This would put the earth's creation at around 9.13 billion years. We know that the Earth was created around 4.55 billion years ago....Doesn't seem to add up..... |
Peace.
Just because the universe is SAID to be almost 14 billion years old (according to one or two linked theories), it doesn't mean that you can just divide 14 by 6, or otherwise you're saying that creating everything only just finished. Besides, i'm not supporting creationism. God didn't just snap His "fingers" and the universe appeared. The yawm might have been 5 million years, or it might it have been half a billion of gradual development...who knows.
By the way, mate, i'm on this trip thing where i'll be away for a week. So let's postpone this discussion for a week. I'll be interested/happy to continue after then.
If you wanna discuss it via an instant messenger, it might be faster. Just a thought...i'll see what you think in a week.
See you soon. | loyal wrote: |
Peace.
Just because the universe is SAID to be almost 14 billion years old (according to one or two linked theories), it doesn't mean that you can just divide 14 by 6, or otherwise you're saying that creating everything only just finished. Besides, i'm not supporting creationism. God didn't just snap His "fingers" and the universe appeared. The yawm might have been 5 million years, or it might it have been half a billion of gradual development...who knows. |
It is not a case of 'one or two theories' - it is the currently accepted theory in Cosmology and is generally accepted. I agree that the definition of 'creation' is problematic. In a strict sense, the 'creation' of the universe was instantaneous, but I was simply trying to apply the most generous interpretation I can think of to support your case.
In reality it doesn't matter what definition of 'creation' you adopt, there is simply no evidence to support the proposal that the Universe took 2 'yawms' to create and the Earth took 4 'yawms'. It doesn't add up whatever value you apply to 'yawm' and whatever definition of 'creation' you apply.Well, I would encourage you to visit the "Skeptic's Annotated Quran" ... I happen to have the link here.
It points out numerous flaws within religious texts, including the Bible, Quran, and Book of Mormon.
And, I believe there is a verse in the Quran (this is not a quote) that runs along the lines of "If the Quran were made by any other than God, surely it would have flaws."
Well, clearly there's flaws, ergo, the Quran is not of God. | Soulfire wrote: |
Well, I would encourage you to visit the "Skeptic's Annotated Quran" ... I happen to have the link here.
It points out numerous flaws within religious texts, including the Bible, Quran, and Book of Mormon.
And, I believe there is a verse in the Quran (this is not a quote) that runs along the lines of "If the Quran were made by any other than God, surely it would have flaws."
Well, clearly there's flaws, ergo, the Quran is not of God. |
Well, personally, as an atheist, I don't believe in a 'God' so I need no convincing that religious texts such as the Bible, Quran and Book of Mormon do not originate with God - to me that is a given.
I was merely seeking to develop this particular debate about the creation with someone who obviously believes it to be true and see if we can arrive at any useful conclusions. I have tried to be as fair as possible and, to be fair, I believe Loyal is also debating in good faith and is being true to his own beliefs in the debate. | Soulfire wrote: |
| Well, clearly there's flaws, ergo, the Quran is not of God. |
Example?It was once accepted that earth is the centre of the unverse and every thing revolves around it and there was a fairly solid proof that thing appeared to revolve around the earth. Then new methods of observation proved things worng.
Subsequent theories of physics were then proved wrong as well. The complete set of newtons laws of motion became meaningful only in a frame of reference once the relativity theory was put forward.
More over, it is obvious that there is no way to disprove the 7 firmaments. You don't beleive in them because you don't have a way to prove the hypothesis according to currently accepted laws of physics and we beleive in the message of Quran so we trust it to be true and certain. For the time, none of us can be proved wrong because we do not share a common ground to debate.
| burqe wrote: |
| It was once accepted that earth is the centre of the unverse and every thing revolves around it and there was a fairly solid proof that thing appeared to revolve around the earth. Then new methods of observation proved things worng. |
No, there was no solid proof. The notion that the earth is the centre of the universe was religious in origin and maintained by religious dogma. In actually fact the early Greeks knew that the Sun was the centre of the 'system' and it was only the later Neo-Platonic religious 'Dark Ages' in which the Earth was put back at the centre.
| Quote: |
| Subsequent theories of physics were then proved wrong as well. The complete set of newtons laws of motion became meaningful only in a frame of reference once the relativity theory was put forward. |
Nonsense. Newton's Laws are used everyday without reference to relativity. Ballistics, Aircraft, almost any field in which you need to calculate the path, velocity or range of an object will use Newton's laws. Relativity did not prove Newton wrong, it simple expanded on Newton and said - 'look, if the things you are measuring are not moving really really fast then Newton is fine but, if they are moving close to the speed of light then you need to make adjustments.
Scientific theories are rarely proved wrong. Can you name one?
| Quote: |
| More over, it is obvious that there is no way to disprove the 7 firmaments. You don't beleive in them because you don't have a way to prove the hypothesis according to currently accepted laws of physics and we beleive in the message of Quran so we trust it to be true and certain. For the time, none of us can be proved wrong because we do not share a common ground to debate. |
I have already said that the 7 firmaments cannot be 'proved' wrong, in the same way that I cannot prove that there is not a small teapot in orbit around Jupiter.
There is no evidence to suggest that there is such a teapot and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there is not. The same applies to the 7 firmaments. There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion and plenty of evidence to suppose it is wrong. | Soulfire wrote: |
| Quote: | | Discover Islam - The Fastest Growing Religion in the World! |
The only reason it is so quickly growing is the uncontrollable population growth in the middle east due to lack of education about contraception. |
U sir, are a toot
Get ur facts right
Growing popultion. Indians are makin babies. Not all of them are muslims
Another dumb american's comment
Leave mid east alone if u dont know what to say
