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ALL YOU WILL EVER NEED TO KNOW





PHP-NEWBIE
Runtime: Aprox. 2 hours (worth it!)

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

Part 1:

Part one covers religion. In this section it proves that not only is jesus fake. but also it proves that most if not all that he stands for has been stolen from previous astrological creatures and figures. It proves WITHOUT A DOUBT that the catholic religion and religion in general is a big sham so that weak and ignorant people wont freak out about dying and so that they have something to live for.

Part 2:

911. YES thats right i said it. 911. Its not like all those other hippie movies with circumstantial evidence and "theories" that have no stable ground to prove that 911 is fake. This movie is very different. It proves without a doubt that 911 was set up. BUT WHY YOU ASK? thats about to be answered.

Part 3:

Although this might seem like it only has any real significance to the usa it will effect the whole world. This part covers the government and what REALLY lies beneath the deep and dark layers of the united states government. truly astounding.
coeus
Sounds like a load of crap but i'd give it a watch. Links?
Tumbleweed
coeus wrote:
Sounds like a load of crap but i'd give it a watch. Links?


I get bored like that to................links please
loyal
PHP-NEWBIE wrote:
Runtime: Aprox. 2 hours (worth it!)
Part 1:

Part one covers religion. In this section it proves that not only is jesus fake. but also it proves that most if not all that he stands for has been stolen from previous astrological creatures and figures. It proves WITHOUT A DOUBT that the catholic religion and religion in general is a big sham so that weak and ignorant people wont freak out about dying and so that they have something to live for.


Errr first of all, why is it JESUS' fault that Christianity has been changed and has taken up beliefs and practices from pagan religions, like mirthraism? It is not Jesus' fault, for example, that the trinity is in Christianity. The trinity was invented later a few centuries AFTER Jesus died/rose to Heaven.

Secondly, you can't prove Jesus is fake. You can prove there is a lack of any real evidence. It doesn't mean he didn't exist. Besides, it's very hard to disprove something. Can you disprove that there is an orbiting teapot in space?

Quote:

Part 2:

911. YES thats right i said it. 911. Its not like all those other hippie movies with circumstantial evidence and "theories" that have no stable ground to prove that 911 is fake. This movie is very different. It proves without a doubt that 911 was set up. BUT WHY YOU ASK? thats about to be answered.

Part 3:

Although this might seem like it only has any real significance to the usa it will effect the whole world. This part covers the government and what REALLY lies beneath the deep and dark layers of the united states government. truly astounding.


Just out of curiosity, what does this have to do with philosophy and religion?
And instead of leaving us with movie trailers, what does this film, which you haven't provided a link for, actually say about 911 and Jesus?

Thanks.
may God bless you.
PHP-NEWBIE
sorry i forgot the link, its up now
Soulfire
Most religions are just copies of earlier ones.

Rather unoriginal if you think about it ^_^!
{name here}
As far as I know the documentary is mostly half-truths relying on anecdotal evidence. I don't even think it cites its findings. It's probably just conspiracy theories and demagogery for the most part.
Indi
Soulfire wrote:
Most religions are just copies of earlier ones.

Rather unoriginal if you think about it ^_^!

Perhaps. ^_^; But if they're all scratching the same itch, it makes sense to reuse things that worked before.
Soulfire
Indi wrote:
Soulfire wrote:
Most religions are just copies of earlier ones.

Rather unoriginal if you think about it ^_^!

Perhaps. ^_^; But if they're all scratching the same itch, it makes sense to reuse things that worked before.


True, true. My religious beliefs are beginning to rapidly change.
blackheart
Soulfire wrote:
Indi wrote:
Soulfire wrote:
Most religions are just copies of earlier ones.

Rather unoriginal if you think about it ^_^!

Perhaps. ^_^; But if they're all scratching the same itch, it makes sense to reuse things that worked before.


True, true. My religious beliefs are beginning to rapidly change.


Passively, I've actually noticed a change in your philosophy on religion in your posts. I admire people open to being altered through discussion (even subtly, it's still more than most will concede... occasionally I even pick up my myself being reluctant to change a view I have reason to doubt).
loyal
blackheart wrote:
Soulfire wrote:
Indi wrote:
Soulfire wrote:
Most religions are just copies of earlier ones.

Rather unoriginal if you think about it ^_^!

Perhaps. ^_^; But if they're all scratching the same itch, it makes sense to reuse things that worked before.


True, true. My religious beliefs are beginning to rapidly change.


Passively, I've actually noticed a change in your philosophy on religion in your posts. I admire people open to being altered through discussion (even subtly, it's still more than most will concede... occasionally I even pick up my myself being reluctant to change a view I have reason to doubt).


They are changing from christian to more agnostic, right?
stacygoode
I am a Christian, but unlike many of my brethren, I don't believe that my Father is a big mean kid omnisciently creating sinners who will soon be cast into a pit of torment. That many Christians believe this can't change the Truth about my God, or you. YOU are exactly where you are meant to be, and if you're reading this, even just for kicks, you're on the road home. Heaven is, according to Jesus, a place that lies within us, therefore I must assume the same for hell. What has been created cannot be threatened, and what is threatening cannot be real.

Relax. Enjoy your life. Forgive yourself and everyone else, and things will start looking up in no time!

Peace of God be with you!
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
Heaven is, according to Jesus, a place that lies within us, therefore I must assume the same for hell. What has been created cannot be threatened, and what is threatening cannot be real.
Err...what about the following?
John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world . . . this realm"
Hebrews 9:11 Heaven is not of this creation
Corinthians 15:50­ Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. We shall all be changed...we will have a spiritual body
Indi
stacygoode wrote:
Heaven is, according to Jesus, a place that lies within us, therefore I must assume the same for hell.

As Bikerman points out... if you are going to say "according to Jesus", you'd better be sure what you are saying is actually according to Jesus, and not your own, personal beliefs.

In point of fact, Jesus - along with the rest of the Bible - is pretty plain spoken about both the nature of Heaven and Hell (well, at least Heaven... the nature of Hell, depending on your point of view, changes between the Old and New Testaments... sort of... ish - but at least Jesus was consistent and plain-spoken about Hell, even if what he says is not quite in tune with the Old Testament). Yes, throughout the New Testament, both Jesus and the other writers are inconsistent on how to get to Heaven, but they all agree on what it is. It is even described in detail in Revelations (and if you want to dismiss as Revelations as a hallucinogenic fantasy, fine, but Heaven is described the exact same way, albeit with far less detail, in other places).

Suffice it to say that neither Heaven nor Hell is "within" us. Both are - according to Jesus, himself - places somewhere in his übercosmos. Not metaphorical places, not states of mind, literal places. As in, he said he actually went to Heaven and is waiting there, and will be coming back (in the end times). If Heaven really was a state of mind, then when Jesus went to Heaven with his disciples watching, why did he go somewhere, and not just sit down and smile as he went to his mental heavenly "happy place"? (Note also that Jesus was not the only one who literally went - as in physically travelled by means of divine intervention - to Heaven. Thus, it must be a place, even if it is a place that most of us cannot take our physical bodies to.)

Now, i know what you're thinking. "But Jesus said Heaven was within us!" In fact, he said something like that in Luke 17. However, consider the following:
  • Jesus is notorious for teaching in parables - something most of the Biblical prophets did not. So how can you tell when he's talking in parable and when he's being literal? Well, let's try using our heads. Every Biblical prophet - supposedly given this information from God, directly or indirectly - says Heaven is an actual place somewhere. And... so does Jesus, pretty much every time he brings it up. And then... one time... upon having to answer a challenge ("Where is God's kingdom? Show it to me!"), he says it's "within/among you" (the Greek is vague). So... do we take this one smart alec comeback to shut the challenger up as the truth.... or every other reference? Your call.

  • When you look at what he says, it is specifically: "You cannot find the Kingdom of God by going out and looking for it, and don't believe people who tell you that they can show it to you, 'the Kingdom of God is within/among you'" - which can mean many things, including "you're already in it", "it's already here", etc. Modern Christians pushing the "Heaven is a state of mind" theory always choose the "within" translation, but that is dishonest and incomplete. "Among" is just as valid, and in fact the word means both sense. The phrase "The Kingdom of God is within/among you" is probably implying that God's "agents" (or God's awareness and/or authority) is there now. In other words, Jesus' answer in modern terms is: "Don't bother looking for the Kingdom of God... we're already here, watching you." Basically, he's rebuffing the person asking the question.

  • Right after saying this, he goes on to tell his disciples, "If you're looking for me (when i'm gone)... don't bother. Just go and do you stuff. When i'm back, you'll know it (by divine signs). (Again, don't look for me... i'm gonna come lookin' for you.)" So the theme is repeated, he's just nicer to the disciples.

As for not knowing what Hell is like... how can you not? Jesus was clear - explicit - in fact, he seemed to delight in describing in great detail how horribly the sinners would suffer in the flames. Yes, flames. Jesus explicitly said flames, fires, etc. (and even called them "unquenchable", on some occasions, i believe). He explicitly said much weeping and suffering would be had in Hell. Modern Christians can't stomach this kind of blatant cruelty, so they ignore those verses... but they're there.
stacygoode
First of all, thank you both for embarking on these topics with me. I've been to many churches and heard inconsisancies everywhere I went, so I decided to read the Bible with my own mind. I don't mean to offend, I just want to understand what God has given me to understand. I chose knowlege in the Garden, and I intend to complete that journey so that I can be at peace.

I believe Jesus went before us to prepare a place for us in the New Heaven. In the three days between crucifixion and resurection, he conquered the Devil, and yet the devil lives among us. He is the prince of this world. God has no use for time, it is we who use time. I believe there is much confusion stemming from people trying to relate time and eternitly. I believe the closest thing we have to eternity is RIGHT NOW. At this time Satan is here on Earth. But the new Earth will be void of Satan. At this time "noone will say 'here it is' or 'there it is' because the kingdom of God is within you." (Lk 17:21)

I believe God lives within me, not in this world. God, inside; Satan, outside. do we live within ourselves or in this world. People make that choice every day. Every day I have to decide to look within for God using my spiritual eyes. Every day people don't make that decission and they choose to live in the world around them using their natural eyes, letting world affect them rather than the other way around.

Don't let Satan tell you that Jesus is not with you right now. He will be coming back in physical form, but he is here now. Matthew 28:20 "and surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

As for the descriptions of hell, they sound to me much like this Earth. The days to come predicted in Revelations sound equally unfathomable as the hell Jesus describes. However We will be taken up before that time, so we will not suffer those horrible things. Then we will return with Jesus to rule for a thousand years. The end is the same for everyone.. From the Creator we came, and to thecreator we will return.

2pet 3:9 - "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

I believe God's will will be done, if his will is for none to perish, then none wil perish. Otherwise I am more forgivng than my Creator, and I can't believe that. Time is all we have to keep us frm God. At the end of time, this nightmare will be over.

Romans 14:11 - "'As surely as I live EVERY knee will bow before me, every tongue will confess to God."

Consider this, If time is a human tool, how can we understand the eternity of God. No beginning, no end, just like RIGHT NOW. Right now I can be still and know that God is God, or I can chose to torment myself along with Satan (which means "accuser") Right now has no beginning, and no end. To understand what is not of this world, suspend your natural minds. There is no clock in Heaven. It is not imperative that we understand all this, but I want to. I believe that God wants me to as well. I love discussing this. Indi, Chris, I love you both and I really enjoy talking with you. We will commune at the wedding feast, so let us commune now. Let us talk as brothers.

Peace, God Bless.

Stacy
stacygoode
Quote:
[*]When you look at what he says, it is specifically: "You cannot find the Kingdom of God by going out and looking for it, and don't believe people who tell you that they can show it to you, 'the Kingdom of God is within/among you'" - which can mean many things, including "you're already in it", "it's already here", etc. Modern Christians pushing the "Heaven is a state of mind" theory always choose the "within" translation, but that is dishonest and incomplete. "Among" is just as valid, and in fact the word means both sense. The phrase "The Kingdom of God is within/among you" is probably implying that God's "agents" (or God's awareness and/or authority) is there now. In other words, Jesus' answer in modern terms is: "Don't bother looking for the Kingdom of God... we're already here, watching you." Basically, he's rebuffing the person asking the question.

[*]Right after saying this, he goes on to tell his disciples, "If you're looking for me (when i'm gone)... don't bother. Just go and do you stuff. When i'm back, you'll know it (by divine signs). (Again, don't look for me... i'm gonna come lookin' for you.)" So the theme is repeated, he's just nicer to the disciples.[/list]


to be clear, (Luke 17:20-24) "Once having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, 'The Kingdom of heaven will not come with your careful observation, nor will people say 'here it is' or 'there it is' because the kingdom of Heaven is within you."

Heaven is spiritual and internal, not physical and external. when we think that we are physical, affeceted by the physical world, we are at risk of fire, death, weaping, gnahing of teeth, desire fro things that never quench us, indeed we are in an unquenchable fire of desire. I firmly believe that to be reincarnated is to remain in hell, to let go of the desires of this world, we release ouselves to the spirit of God from whence we came.

God bless
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
to be clear, (Luke 17:20-24) "Once having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, 'The Kingdom of heaven will not come with your careful observation, nor will people say 'here it is' or 'there it is' because the kingdom of Heaven is within you."
Heaven is spiritual and internal, not physical and external.
Then you don't believe the bible is literal - but you previously said that you do.
For example:
2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
Deut. 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
Deut. 26:15 Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
Joshua 8:20 And when the men of Ai looked behind them, they saw, and, behold, the smoke of the city ascended up to heaven, and they had no power to flee this way or that way: and the people that fled to the wilderness turned back upon the pursuers.
Judges 13:20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar.
Samuel 21:10 And Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water dropped upon them out of heaven
1 Kings 8;23 And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath
1 Kings 8;34-45 Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place
Psalm 80:14 Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine;

I could go on and on (really, I could).
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I firmly believe that to be reincarnated is to remain in hell, to let go of the desires of this world, we release ouselves to the spirit of God from whence we came.
Sound to me like you are more Buddhist than Christian...
stacygoode
notice that everything you are quoting came from the old test.
Elijah was in fact reincarnated. out from a new mother came John the baptist.
I think Jesus brought Eastern and Western Philosophy together. I think God is the God of all and did not leave the East without insight.

The word Tao means "way" in chinese and it is what the budhists base their philosophies on.
The Chinese Bible uses the word "tao" in place of "word"in

John 1:1,
English "In the beginning the word was with God and the word was God. He was with God in the Beginning." john1:14 "The word became flesh and made his dwelling among us."
Chinese "in the beginning the tao was with God and the Tao was God. He was with God in the beginning." john1:14 "the Tao became flesh and made His dwelling among us." (reffering to Jesus)

Also, the golden rule (mat 7:12) is a hindu/budhist philosophy heavily frowned on by Jewish athorities. I think Jesus came for all people, and God is above symbols. I believe that budha rose up on the day of the crucifixion.

Mat 27:52 "the tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life."

Let's be nice to eachother

god Bless
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
notice that everything you are quoting came from the old test.
Well I did say that I could go on. If you want New Testament quotes which show that heaven is a place, not 'within us' then I'll happily oblige.
Matthew 6:10 your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Matthew 14:19 And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves.
Matthew 28:2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mark 1:11 And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Mark 7:34 He looked up to heaven and with a deep sigh said to him, "Ephphatha!" (which means, "Be opened!" ).
Mark 16;19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
Luke 2:15 When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."
Luke 9:16 Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke them. Then he gave them to the disciples to set before the people.
Luke 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Luke 17:29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Do you want me to continue? I can easily do so....
HalfBloodPrince
Stacygoode: Heaven is a place in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. If you don't like it, tough. If a religion claims that it is not a place but is some inner state of mind etc. etc. etc...then that isn't J/C/I.
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
I think Jesus brought Eastern and Western Philosophy together. I think God is the God of all and did not leave the East without insight.
So you don't think it is a tad arrogant to assume that Buddhism, Hinduism and other eastern religions are actually just other forms of Christianity rather than separate and distinct faiths?
Quote:
The word Tao means "way" in chinese and it is what the budhists base their philosophies on.
The Chinese Bible uses the word "tao" in place of "word"in
The Chinese bible is for Chinese Christians, not for Buddhists.
Quote:
John 1:1,
English "In the beginning the word was with God and the word was God. He was with God in the Beginning." john1:14 "The word became flesh and made his dwelling among us."
Chinese "in the beginning the tao was with God and the Tao was God. He was with God in the beginning." john1:14 "the Tao became flesh and made His dwelling among us." (reffering to Jesus)
All that shows is that the Chinese bible translates the Hebrew 'miela' into 'Tao'. That is logical because tao loosely translates as 'doctrine' or 'way' which is a reasonable translation of 'miela' (lit. The power or might of one who rules or teaches) in this context. It has nothing to do with Taoism or Buddhism as a belief system.
Quote:
Also, the golden rule (mat 7:12) is a hindu/budhist philosophy heavily frowned on by Jewish athorities.
'do to others what you would have them do to you' is common to many religions and philosophies. It is a part of my humanist philosophy - that doesn't mean that my philosophy has anything to do with Christianity - it doesn't. Nor does it mean that Christians were the first to elucidate this principle - they weren't.
Quote:
I think Jesus came for all people, and God is above symbols. I believe that budha rose up on the day of the crucifixion.
Whereas Buddhists would find that notion patronising and insulting. Gautama Buddha was born about 560 years before the crucifiction (if we assume there was such a thing). The whole notion of nirvana is antithetical to the notion of resurrection - the two are almost opposites. There is no 'God' in Buddhism.
Quote:
Mat 27:52 "the tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life."
Which contradicts the other 3 accounts doesn't it?
http://www.inu.net/skeptic/resfic.html
stacygoode
To these comments I can only wearily reply. There are three heavens that the Bible refers to... the heaven of the clouds, the heaven of the stars and the heaven that is the Home of God. I am refering to the third. I look to the sky when I am thinking of God, because of the symbolism. We as humans rely on symbols.

I don't care what most people think, I want to know the Truth halfbloodprince, and to say that people think it, so it must be, is thoughtless. This world is a classroom. Most people are wrong, that's why we're here. The truth is not a fad, and I am a Christian because I believe Christ died for me, not because of where I think Heaven is.

If you go to China and ask someone to tell you about the Tao, they will not tell you about the Bible. They will tell you about one of the most beautiful little books of wisdom ever written, the Tao Te Ching. They will tell you about their interpretation of God. The point is that God didn't forget about anyone in His perfect plan for salvation.

I don't think Buddha would agree with most buddhists of today, just as I don't think Christ would agree with most Christians of today. My aim is to bring people to a place of acceptance and peace.

I love you all but I don't feel like this is going anywhere, so I regress. Over and out.

God be with you.
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
To these comments I can only wearily reply. There are three heavens that the Bible refers to... the heaven of the clouds, the heaven of the stars and the heaven that is the Home of God. I am refering to the third.
So is Mark in 1:11 and 16:19 and Luke in 2:15. Again, I could go on...there are many references to heaven as the home of God and it is referred to as a place repeatedly.
Quote:
If you go to China and ask someone to tell you about the Tao, they will not tell you about the Bible. They will tell you about one of the most beautiful little books of wisdom ever written, the Tao Te Ching. They will tell you about their interpretation of God. The point is that God didn't forget about anyone in His perfect plan for salvation.
Taoists will tell you about GODS not GOD. Taoism is a polytheistic religion with many Gods. The Jade Emperor is the 'top' God with a pantheon of 'lesser' Gods in attendance. Taoists have no belief in a God who died for our sins and was resurrected (the basic Christian dogma).
Quote:
I don't think Buddha would agree with most buddhists of today, just as I don't think Christ would agree with most Christians of today. My aim is to bring people to a place of acceptance and peace.
Again you don't see the arrogance in speaking for Buddhists? What special knowledge of Buddha do you posses which enables you to make statements like this?
stacygoode
Toaism is not polytheistic, I do not speak for buddhists. I am giving you my take on unity and forgiveness.

Noone understands everything, and you pretend to understand something you claim doesn't exist. It's like me arguing that unicorns are related to elves.

That'll do. Peace, Chris.
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
Toaism is not polytheistic, I do not speak for buddhists. I am giving you my take on unity and forgiveness.
Taoism IS polytheistic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#Pantheon

You said "I don't think Buddha would agree with most buddhists of today". I repeat - what special knowledge of Buddha do you posses that enables you to make this statement?
Quote:
Noone understands everything, and you pretend to understand something you claim doesn't exist. It's like me arguing that unicorns are related to elves.
I claim nothing. I understand basic Christian theology because I studied it for many years.
stacygoode
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

Read through this book, there is no mention of the jade emporor. Taoism is hardly a religion at all. It is a way of living. This book is the backbone of Taoism. There is no mention of anything but 1 God and the Tao. I believe that the one God is God, the Son and the Tao is God, the Father. Beautiful book.

I have never heard of this jade emporor. Is there a site I can study?

Buddha would have aproblem with being worshiped. He did not say I am God, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he also said that he would not return. He was born after an abnormally long pregnancy took a step to the north, one to the east, one to the south and one to the west, stated his name and said "this is my last time on earth."

This was the account of one of his monks. I would do well to read more on this, but Buddha also predicted a messiah.
Indi
stacygoode wrote:
God has no use for time, it is we who use time. I believe there is much confusion stemming from people trying to relate time and eternitly. I believe the closest thing we have to eternity is RIGHT NOW. At this time Satan is here on Earth. But the new Earth will be void of Satan. At this time "noone will say 'here it is' or 'there it is' because the kingdom of God is within you." (Lk 17:21)

I believe God lives within me, not in this world. God, inside; Satan, outside. do we live within ourselves or in this world. People make that choice every day. Every day I have to decide to look within for God using my spiritual eyes. Every day people don't make that decission and they choose to live in the world around them using their natural eyes, letting world affect them rather than the other way around.

Fine, these are all things you believe. But they're none - not one of them - scripturally supported. The out-of-context quotes your making notwithstanding, you will be hard-pressed to find anything in the Bible that sounds anything like what you say.

Hell, some of those things you say... i can't even make sense of at all. "Relating time and eternity"? The closest thing to eternity is now? What the hell does that even mean? You know, if you are really serious about understanding, stop speaking in riddles and cryptic tautologies. Say it plain. If you can't do that, then you don't really understand what you're saying.

stacygoode wrote:
Don't let Satan tell you that Jesus is not with you right now. He will be coming back in physical form, but he is here now. Matthew 28:20 "and surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Now that is Biblical. Jesus did say that he is "here" - as in, his awareness and will are here, he is not absent - even though he is not "here" - as in, his physical presence is not here, it is in Heaven.

stacygoode wrote:
As for the descriptions of hell, they sound to me much like this Earth. The days to come predicted in Revelations sound equally unfathomable as the hell Jesus describes. However We will be taken up before that time, so we will not suffer those horrible things. Then we will return with Jesus to rule for a thousand years. The end is the same for everyone.. From the Creator we came, and to thecreator we will return.

Ok, the parts of this that are not nonsense are wrong - in that they are not scriptural. How in the hell do the descriptions of hell sound like Earth??? Unquenchable fires where people burn and suffer and weep and gnash their teeth? Freaking hell, man, if that sounds like where you live where they hell are you?

stacygoode wrote:
Consider this, If time is a human tool, how can we understand the eternity of God. No beginning, no end, just like RIGHT NOW. Right now I can be still and know that God is God, or I can chose to torment myself along with Satan (which means "accuser") Right now has no beginning, and no end. To understand what is not of this world, suspend your natural minds. There is no clock in Heaven.

Once again, the parts of this that make sense are not scriptural. For example, you say there is no clock in Heaven. Point out the verse that says this. You say there is no beginning and no end. Point out the verse that says this (this might be a toughy given that the Bible begins with the words "In the beginning...").

i'm not going to stop you from believing what you want. i'm not even going to challenge your beliefs (unless you have the balls to try and claim they're certainly true and i'm a fool for not believing them, too). But i am going to challenge any statements you make that i can see are certainly false.

stacygoode wrote:
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[*]When you look at what he says, it is specifically: "You cannot find the Kingdom of God by going out and looking for it, and don't believe people who tell you that they can show it to you, 'the Kingdom of God is within/among you'" - which can mean many things, including "you're already in it", "it's already here", etc. Modern Christians pushing the "Heaven is a state of mind" theory always choose the "within" translation, but that is dishonest and incomplete. "Among" is just as valid, and in fact the word means both sense. The phrase "The Kingdom of God is within/among you" is probably implying that God's "agents" (or God's awareness and/or authority) is there now. In other words, Jesus' answer in modern terms is: "Don't bother looking for the Kingdom of God... we're already here, watching you." Basically, he's rebuffing the person asking the question.

[*]Right after saying this, he goes on to tell his disciples, "If you're looking for me (when i'm gone)... don't bother. Just go and do you stuff. When i'm back, you'll know it (by divine signs). (Again, don't look for me... i'm gonna come lookin' for you.)" So the theme is repeated, he's just nicer to the disciples.[/list]


to be clear, (Luke 17:20-24) "Once having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, 'The Kingdom of heaven will not come with your careful observation, nor will people say 'here it is' or 'there it is' because the kingdom of Heaven is within you."

Heaven is spiritual and internal, not physical and external.

*facepalm* But... that's the opposite of what the Bible says! And... you say it right after i explain why it's wrong! ^_^;

Alright, you're using the New International Version - i can tell by the text. i also have an NIV copy. It has the same text... with a footnote! So, to be clear: ^_^;

(Luke 17:20-21) "Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within* you." (and the footnote says: *Or among)

Your NIV text is not the real text. It is a translation. Anyone who has ever done any translating know that it is impossible to have a perfect translation of any non-trivial text. Even English text written fifty years ago has a different meaning than English text now! Good grief! Even English text written in the UK today has a different meaning to English text written in the US today!!!

To get a proper understanding of what the verse means, you have to understand that it was originally written in Greek, and then you have to understand the Greek sense. The word that the NIV translates as "within" is "ἐντός". This can mean "inside of"... but it can also be applied to a pluralistic noun like "people", which would give it the sense of "amongst" in English. In Jesus' sentence, it is applied to the pluralistic "you", as in, "you people".

If you want another example, imagine someone saying, "We have placed spies ἐντός the population." What does "ἐντός" mean there? Does it mean "within"? Well, it works: "We have placed spies within the population." But do you think that means they put little spirit-spies inside of each person? Of course not. So why do you interpret Jesus' usage that way? It makes no sense, especially when you consider that it contradicts every other time Jesus talked about Heaven. i think it's blatantly clear that Jesus meant amongst, not inside of. It's the only thing that makes any sense. ^_^; And, it agrees with the rest of the speech (that he gives to the disciples), and is in character with his general responses to the Pharisees.

So here's the thing. You can believe that Heaven is a state of mind - "spiritual and internal", as you put it - and i won't argue with you. You can believe whatever you want, for all i care. But if you're going to claim that you have a Biblical justification for that belief, i'm going to cry foul, because you don't. In fact, the Bible contradicts your belief every single time it comes up, except for one ambiguous entry (Luke 17:21), which can, if you really want it to, sorta kinda maybe somewhat support it. But even that entry - when interpreted in context - doesn't really support your claim. ^_^;

stacygoode wrote:
when we think that we are physical, affeceted by the physical world, we are at risk of fire, death, weaping, gnahing of teeth, desire fro things that never quench us, indeed we are in an unquenchable fire of desire. I firmly believe that to be reincarnated is to remain in hell, to let go of the desires of this world, we release ouselves to the spirit of God from whence we came.

Again, believe what you want, and as long as it harms no one, i doubt anyone will have a problem with it (except for religious extremists, and to hell with them, i say).

The problem comes when you try to claim that you have scriptural justification for your beliefs... because you don't. All of these things you "firmly believe", they are not Biblical, not in the least. The Biblical reality is that Heaven and Hell are real places (where Heaven is synonymous with "God's Kingdom" and Hell is the Jesus/New Testament conception of Hell), and that Hell is not just "separation from God" but is a place of eternal fires. All of these fancies about the non-reality of the physical world are completely unsupported by scripture (well, actually ^_^; they're totally unsupported by Christian literature... but they are virtually identical to Scientology's beliefs).

As i said before, i don't think you understand even a percent of what you say you understand. i think you are just confusing the hell out of yourself with double-speak and riddles. The greatest fear of the deluded is clarity. If you really do understand what you think you understand, then try to explain it clearly, in plain English - which is, i assume, what you speak - just as you would explain how to use a television remote to someone who had never seen one before. Drop the technical terms, drop the aimless riddles and drop the pretentious circular double talk. Just say it straight, and say it plain. See if you can manage that - that's the surest test of your understanding.
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

Read through this book, there is no mention of the jade emporor. Taoism is hardly a religion at all. It is a way of living. This book is the backbone of Taoism. There is no mention of anything but 1 God and the Tao. I believe that the one God is God, the Son and the Tao is God, the Father. Beautiful book.
Taoism is both a philosophy and a religion. The tao-te-ching is the philosophical book of Tao. The religious side of Taoism is decidedly polytheistic.
PS - I prefer other translations - try
http://www.thetao.info/english/english.htm
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I have never heard of this jade emporor. Is there a site I can study?
Yes, several.
http://www.thetao.info/tao/gods.htm
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/gods.html
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/religious-tao.html
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761555647/Daoism.html
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Buddha would have aproblem with being worshiped.
Which is why buddhists do not worship him. Buddha is regarded as the great teacher - not some deity to be worshipped.
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He did not say I am God, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he also said that he would not return.
Which is why your assertion that he 'rose again' is insulting to Buddhist beliefs.
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I would do well to read more on this, but Buddha also predicted a messiah.
No, he predicted another supremely enlightened MAN, not a messiah in the Christian sense of the word.
stacygoode
Oh my. Don't lose your peace over this. Everything I say comes from the Bible. Every time I read it, it reads differently. There are layers in the text, and they will reveal themselves to you if you are ready. Jesus did say that not everyone would understand, so you can safely assume that the first conclusion that everyone jumps to is incorect. I don't really think you want heaven to be inside you. I understand how that feels. The idea of heaven being something better than what we have is appealing, but only when you don't understand what you already have. I used to look forward to a new place too, but I submit to you that God is in His temple now and we are the temple of God. Religion insists that we can look forward to heaven if we just wait. Spirituality concentrates on backing out of hell through a relationship with God.

If you don't understand the parables of the Lord Jesus, then I fear I cannot explain them to you. But rhetorically I can ask you...

If heaven is like yeast and it will be worked through all the dough, what is the dough. Are we not the dough? How shal heaven work through us if it is not within us?

If it is a place already established, how does it grow up like a mustard seed? Though it starts small it grows in each of us.

If time and eternity coexist, then eternity must have a beginning. This is not so, so they must not be the same. Time began, but God existed before time. "Before" doesn't make sense without the existence of time, but humans can hardly grasp this, so I can only compare 'eternity' with 'now' they are similar in their timelessness (2Ti 1:9-this grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, tit 1:1,2 - Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness - a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, )

I do not double speak, I attempt to speak of thing for which there can be no words. Parables were the only things Jesus could use.

I hope this has helped.

God bless you.
Bikerman
I'll leave Indi to answer this in detail (if Indi wants to).
I'll just simply make a couple of general comments.
You assert that the bible supports your contention that heaven and hell are not places. I provided you with numerous biblical passages from the OT that show otherwise. You claim foul because I used the OT. I provided you with numerous examples from the NT to show otherwise. (Note that these examples are not parables, they are reportage from the Gospels). You ignore these.
You then make the claim that the meaning of the bible is multi-layered and that nobody understands it on the first reading. Well, aside from being patronising and a massive generalisation, it is not really relevant since I've read the bible many many times. The Bible STILL says that heaven is a place and that hell (gehenna) is a place. You can read it as many times as you like - the words will not suddenly morph.

PS - if you want a list of NT references to Hell then:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hel_bibl.htm
deanhills
Bikerman wrote:
Well, aside from being patronising and a massive generalisation, it is not really relevant since I've read the bible many many times. The Bible STILL says that heaven is a place and that hell (gehenna) is a place. You can read it as many times as you like - the words will not suddenly morph.


The Bible has been with us for centuries and centuries and centuries of time. When it first originated it was in a totally different format and prepared for audiences that were completely alien to us, spoke different languages, used different expressions, were at a different stage of evolvement. When one goes from England to Canada or the US our current English language in its own already has serious problems of interpretation, i.e. the language in itself has double speak built into it. So now we want to literally sort out the Bible when we have only been around for the equivalent of a speck in the Universe time duration in relation to the History of the Bible.

What should also be taken into account, is the audience for which the Bible was originally written at that specific time. They may not have understood a complete scientific analysis. Possibly the Bible was not intended as a scientific tool. But as a book of rules, inspiration and guidance that evolved over centuries of time and made use of plenty of parables. I say possibly, as I do not believe any of us could ever know for a scientific fact what all the literal meanings are.
Bikerman
It's not a case of loosing something in the translation, or meaning something different in previous times. We don't need a scientific description, or a detailed semantic understanding of Hebrew and Greek to address this particular issue - it is a simple binary question. Either Heaven and Hell are actual places or they are not - there is nothing in-between. Both are mentioned as places many times so, I repeat, they either are real places (in which case the bible is truthful on this issue), or they are not (in which case the bible account of this is a lie).
deanhills
Bikerman wrote:
It's not a case of loosing something in the translation, or meaning something different in previous times. We don't need a scientific description, or a detailed semantic understanding of Hebrew and Greek to address this particular issue - it is a simple binary question. Either Heaven and Hell are actual places or they are not - there is nothing in-between. Both are mentioned as places many times so, I repeat, they either are real places (in which case the bible is truthful on this issue), or they are not (in which case the bible account of this is a lie).


I don't think religion can provide binary answers. One may have great difficulty in getting that from the Bible. My view is personal and non-binary: heaven and hell are both inside of me depending on where my focus is. We are all connected with one another in ONE heaven and ONE hell where our collective focus is. I cannot know what will happen when I pass on, but I can imagine that the hell and heaven will continue in a different form as my physical body will no longer be around. So maybe it can be as simple as heaven being referred to as a separate place where mortals will be after they are deceased. But it is the same as well. Heaven and hell stay the same. But our "body" format changes when we pass on from physical to non-physical.
Bikerman
I haven't got a clue what any of that means. If heaven and hell are inside you and you cease to exist then where do they go? If they are not inside you then they are someplace else. What's all this stuff about 'focus'?
Indi
stacygoode wrote:
Everything I say comes from the Bible. Every time I read it, it reads differently. There are layers in the text, and they will reveal themselves to you if you are ready.

Well i have no idea what you're reading then, because the Bible i read doesn't read differently every time i read it, it reads the exact same every day, unchanged, as it has been more or less for almost two thousand years. And these things you're saying, no, they don't come from that Bible, not at all. And of course, i have provided evidence from the Bible i read that directly refutes your claims.

Here's the thing... on the one hand you're claiming that you understand the Bible better than i do. On the other, you're claiming that it's different every time you read it. Don't you see the problem with that? You see... if you understand something, you understand it. If you don't understand something, then there are aspects of it that are unknown to you, which you can discover, meaning that your understanding of it changes as it grows. So... in point of fact, by telling us that every time you read the Bible, it reads differently... what you've actually done is proved that you don't really understand it.

Interesting, hm?

Know what else is interesting? There are people who have dedicated their lives to understanding the Bible. Not reading it, as many of the faithful do, but understanding it. These people study the ancient, dead languages the Bible was written in, trying to get a grasp on the semantics that have been lost in centuries of translation of translation of translation. They are fully aware of the layers you are talking about. The problem is... agreement is all but unanimous that the Biblical Heaven and Hell are meant to be literal places - in fact, to the letter of the Bible, Hell is literally underground, and Heaven is literally in the sky (above the "firmament", which is a concept from the old flat-Earth model of the universe). See what i mean? You claim to understand everything so well... when the evidence given by you shows that you do not. And the experts that do understand it well disagree with you. Go figure.

stacygoode wrote:
Jesus did say that not everyone would understand, so you can safely assume that the first conclusion that everyone jumps to is incorect.

Which is why i rely on careful study of the Bible, which i have repeatedly shown here. i have given you studies of the original Koine Greek wording. i have explained the phrases in their surrounding context. i have provided supporting evidence from all over the Gospels (and Bikerman has provided supporting evidence from all over the New Testament and Old).

By contrast, you have ignored all of this, and you keep insisting that what you believe is true and that we're all just clueless because we don't see what you do. Every bit of evidence you have provided for your claims has been cleanly refuted - sometimes before you even presented it.

Even worse, your supporting arguments are not really arguments at all. There are no facts, no evidence, no nothing except repeatedly telling us in one way or another, "What i say is true, and if you don't see it there's something wrong with you."

Don't believe me? Read on:
stacygoode wrote:
I don't really think you want heaven to be inside you. I understand how that feels. The idea of heaven being something better than what we have is appealing, but only when you don't understand what you already have.

See what i mean? ^_^; The question is whether or not the Bible supports your claims... but you don't even crack open the Bible here, you just imply that for whatever reasons i don't "want" to believe your claims because they are not as "appealing" as what you think i believe.

Reality check. What i want to believe... doesn't matter. Neither does what you want to believe. The question being asked is does the Bible support your claims. The only thing that matters in answer to your question is what the Bible says.

Which is why, surprise surprise, i have been quoting Bible verses and explaining the context of phrases and the Greek source material. See... that stuff matters to the question. What i "want", and what i find "appealing"... that doesn't matter. Neither does what you find appealing.

stacygoode wrote:
I used to look forward to a new place too, but I submit to you that God is in His temple now and we are the temple of God. Religion insists that we can look forward to heaven if we just wait. Spirituality concentrates on backing out of hell through a relationship with God.

Submit all you want, these claims are not Biblical. Jesus was not vague about Hell, it was one of his favourite topics. He said, clearly and repeatedly, that Hell was a place of endless suffering in fire, and that it was a place that some people get sent to. Therefore, it cannot be true that everyone is in hell now because:
  1. We have to be explicitly sent there.
  2. Only some people get sent.
  3. If we were there we would be weeping and gnashing our teeth (aka, suffering miserably, and i feel fine, thank you).
It is also most certainly not true that we can get to Heaven by just "waiting". It is true that there is some contradiction on how you get to Heaven, but the contradiction is between three options: good works alone (mostly Paul's writings), accepting Jesus alone (implied by Jesus), or both. "Waiting" is not one of those options.

And you know what? i call you out. Yes, you read right. i challenge you. i claim that your statements are bullshit, and have no scriptural basis. i think you have no clue what you're talking about. If you want to prove me wrong, then i say go for it - find me a scriptural basis for this statement: "Religion insists that we can look forward to heaven if we just wait." Otherwise, i say you just made it up because you "want" to believe it, because you find it "appealing". ^_^

stacygoode wrote:
If you don't understand the parables of the Lord Jesus, then I fear I cannot explain them to you. But rhetorically I can ask you...

If heaven is like yeast and it will be worked through all the dough, what is the dough. Are we not the dough? How shal heaven work through us if it is not within us?

If it is a place already established, how does it grow up like a mustard seed? Though it starts small it grows in each of us.

Aiya ^_^;

First, for the record, those aren't really rhetorical questions because they're really easy to answer... but before i do i want to point out the follow of what you're trying to do.

You see, you're using the Bible backwards. You have selected an interpretation that appeals to you, and now you're trying to cherry-pick parables and verses that back that interpretation up. That method is doomed to failure, because it blinds you to the larger context.

This situation is a perfect example. Those two metaphors that you mention... they're not isolated descriptions. They are part of a long monologue by Jesus, full of farming and growing metaphors that are all interlinked, and that build on each other. First, he starts by introducing the idea of spreading the message as a farmer spreading seeds that grow into crops - people's belief. In the first parable, people are the ground, the seeds are the message, and the crops are believers (everyone knows this parable). In the second, the situation is the same (except now weeds are introduced - false believers). Then we come to the mustard seed parable. Now, remember, he's already established that seeds are the message, the ground is people, and plants are believers. All he's adding now is that the message is seemingly insignificant (like a small mustard seed), but grows into big, powerful believers (mustard trees). In other words... there's nothing there about the Kingdom of Heaven itself growing, or about it being "inside" of you. It's about how the message seems like nothing but makes you grow big. The following parable - about the yeast - is exactly the same in different terms. It says that although the message doesn't seem like much (a little bit of yeast), it has a profound effect (makes a lot of dough rise). (It also has another meaning! But that's beyond the scope here, and certainly has nothing to do with what you're talking about.)

Now to answer your rhetorical questions directly:

Are we not the dough?
No, we are not the dough, we are the flour. (And Heaven is not the yeast, the message is. That is what follows from the previous parables.)
How shal heaven work through us if it is not within us?
Er... it doesn't say it will "work through us". It says it makes the dough rise. In other words, it makes us better. It doesn't need to be inside us to do that (but in this case, since the yeast is actually the message, it is).
If it is a place already established, how does it grow up like a mustard seed?
Are you serious? ^_^; Places don't grow after they're established? Am i to understand that New York City is the same size as it was when it was established? (Furthermore, read in context it becomes clear again that Heaven is not growing, believers are.)

stacygoode wrote:
If time and eternity coexist, then eternity must have a beginning. This is not so, so they must not be the same.

See, this is why i say that if you understand something, you should be able to say it clearly... because when you say things vaguely you mask your cluelessness. But speaking plainly makes it plainly show.

What you have written above is gibberish. Complete nonsense. It makes no sense at all.

Eternity is a measure of a length of time. Time is, of course, time. What the hell is it supposed to mean to say "if they coexist"? That's... nonsense. That's like saying, "If distance and a mile coexist...". It's meaningless gibberish. ^_^; Time and eternity will happen to be the same if the length of time you're talking about is eternity. ^_^; Otherwise, no, they "must" not be the same at all.

Furthermore, no, eternity does not need to have a beginning. That's mathematically demonstrable.

stacygoode wrote:
Time began, but God existed before time. "Before" doesn't make sense without the existence of time, but humans can hardly grasp this, so I can only compare 'eternity' with 'now' they are similar in their timelessness (2Ti 1:9-this grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, tit 1:1,2 - Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness - a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, )

^_^; No.

If time has a beginning - which, let's assume to be true - then if God is already in existence when that clock starts, he can be said to have existed before time. Same for the promise. There are issues with God's timeline, considering he created time, but that is not one of them. It is possible for something to have existed since before the beginning of time. In fact anything that already exists at the start of time existed before time... only things that begin existing after time has started do not exist before time.

stacygoode wrote:
I do not double speak, I attempt to speak of thing for which there can be no words. Parables were the only things Jesus could use.

Ah, no. ^_^; Again, this would be cleared up if you'd actually turn to the Bible to see what Jesus said instead of deciding on your own what should be true and then seeking out verses to support that belief. You see... Jesus actually said why he used parables, and it wasn't because the truth was hard to explain. He used them to hide the truth. That's right out his mouth. ^_^;
Klaw 2
Firstly; I don't watch the movie, sorry but I can't sit still for more than 1/2 an hour. But what i read about it was pretty good, I don't know what to think about the 9/11 part but what the heck.

stacygoode wrote:
I think Jesus brought Eastern and Western Philosophy together. I think God is the God of all and did not leave the East without insight.


It may be me but I did not find any relation between christian views and taoist views i don't know them all but why do you think that? Also most Budhists etc. would find that insulting bikerman explained the rest.


stacygoode wrote:
Toaism is not polytheistic, I do not speak for buddhists. I am giving you my take on unity and forgiveness.

Noone understands everything, and you pretend to understand something you claim doesn't exist. It's like me arguing that unicorns are related to elves.

That'll do. Peace, Chris.


1. taoism has more gods fact.
2. True no one understands everything, however using "god" stickers on everything explains nothing. As for claiming to understand something that you believe doesn't exist. I think most atheist (I think) have a reasonable explanation of how god came to be. (I'm speaking for myself now), at some point humans became smart, as all animals they feared what they didn't know. And humans started to ask the big questions of life. No one knew the answers so they were scared. So they invented god to create a comfertable ilusion for themselves. That's how I understand god.
(On a further point elves and unicorns are very related both belong to the same family, IMAGINARY!)(god belongs in the same catagory)
Flarkis
wow...can someone give me back those 2 hours of my life wasted.
stacygoode
I didn't mean to ignore your refferences, Chris. I appoligize for not dirrectly responding to each of them. I meant to cover most of them by saying that there are three "heavens" the Bible talks about. Looking up to heaven is like looking up to the sky and I don't think anyone believes that God lives on a throne atop some cloud. I understand that even Jesus looked up, but like many things in the Bible, this, to me seems a symbolic act, as does His ascension into the clouds mentioned in the book of Acts. I don't think you're trying to argue that Jesus is with us and sitting on a cloud or on a star. I find it hard to believe that anyone could think that God is so cut and dry.

Isn't it possible that Heaven is not something that we can physically concieve of? something bigger than a place? something that is inside of us. Isn't it possible that since I can close my eyes and picture something, that at that moment it exists in my thought, what is anything if it is not thought of? what is anything if it is not beheld?

I'm one of the people who think that if a tree falls in the forrest and noone is around to hear it, then it doesn't make a sound because sound is defined only when it is percieved. I know this doesn't seem to have anything to do with heaven, but what I'm getting at is that existance is dependant on perception. I think that Heaven without being percieved is nothing at all, and perception comes from within. What would life matter without perception? I don't think anything could exist without thought.
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
I didn't mean to ignore your refferences, Chris. I appoligize for not dirrectly responding to each of them. I meant to cover most of them by saying that there are three "heavens" the Bible talks about. Looking up to heaven is like looking up to the sky and I don't think anyone believes that God lives on a throne atop some cloud. I understand that even Jesus looked up, but like many things in the Bible, this, to me seems a symbolic act, as does His ascension into the clouds mentioned in the book of Acts. I don't think you're trying to argue that Jesus is with us and sitting on a cloud or on a star. I find it hard to believe that anyone could think that God is so cut and dry.
What I believe is not the issue is it? I've already said that I don't believe the bible is literal and I don't believe the bible is 'divinely inspired' - I'm an atheist, I don't believe in God(s). It's what YOU believe that we were discussing. It is you who said that you take the bible literally, and it is you who is ignoring or redefining passages in the bible that you find inconvenient to your own personal beliefs. That is a contradiction which you have not addressed and which I don't think you can address.

All you have done up to now is imply that I don't properly understand the bible. In fact, I think I understand the bible pretty well, but I do question your understanding/knowledge of it.
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Isn't it possible that Heaven is not something that we can physically concieve of? something bigger than a place? something that is inside of us. Isn't it possible that since I can close my eyes and picture something, that at that moment it exists in my thought, what is anything if it is not thought of? what is anything if it is not beheld?
Isn't it possible that there is no such thing as heaven? Of course it is.

As far as I am concerned the notions of heaven and hell are human inventions based on mythology which pre-dates the bible, as is the notion of God, the creation myth and much else in the bible.
Again, however, that is not the issue - it is you who say that heaven is within us (which is fine), and it is the Bible that says it is a place external to ourselves (which is also fine). The problem comes when you then say that you believe literally what is written in the bible - that is not fine - it does not compute..
...out of cheese error...redo from start...
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I'm one of the people who think that if a tree falls in the forrest and noone is around to hear it, then it doesn't make a sound because sound is defined only when it is percieved. I know this doesn't seem to have anything to do with heaven, but what I'm getting at is that existance is dependant on perception. I think that Heaven without being percieved is nothing at all, and perception comes from within. What would life matter without perception? I don't think anything could exist without thought.
Again you are contradicting what you previously stated. You are a Christian who believes that the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God (or at least that is what you have told us). Now you are saying that the bible is just plain wrong when it talks about heaven and hell as places and that you don't really believe they exist outside our perception. This is contradictory.

Also - this bit about heaven and perception is a tautology. Perception is the awareness and interpretation/understanding of sensory information. It comes from the brain in conjunction with your senses. You perceive sounds, sure, but you do not perceive abstract concepts or non-physical phenomena. To be perceived, a phenomenon/entity must be detected by one or more of your senses. If heaven does not exist in a way which can be measured by the senses (and it doesn't - we've looked) then it cannot be perceived. By your argument that means it does not exist. It is a circular argument - tautology (I actually agree that it does not exist, but I don't think that is what you meant).

This belief in some 'special' understanding of the bible, which is not shared or understood by others, is common to many religious people I have met over the years. In every case I have come across, it is delusional (apart from my Theology/Religious Studies tutor in sixth form - he was a Jesuit who really knew the bible, a bible scholar who read Hebrew and Greek) and falls apart under close scrutiny. I fear that this is another example.
Indi
stacygoode wrote:
I meant to cover most of them by saying that there are three "heavens" the Bible talks about.

(i think you mean three "Hells": Sheol, Gehenna and Hades (and there are technically one or two others). And no, the Bible does not talk about three Hells, it talks about one Hell and one underworld. It is always crystal clear when it is talking about either one.)

(If you mean three "Heavens"... no. There are no three Heavens. There is a reason we call the sky and the stars the Heavens... because that's what they are (according to the Bible). We only created the distinction - heaven sky and stars vs. heaven Heaven - ages later. In the Bible, it does not exist - the heavens are where Heaven is.)

stacygoode wrote:
Looking up to heaven is like looking up to the sky and I don't think anyone believes that God lives on a throne atop some cloud. I understand that even Jesus looked up, but like many things in the Bible, this, to me seems a symbolic act, as does His ascension into the clouds mentioned in the book of Acts. I don't think you're trying to argue that Jesus is with us and sitting on a cloud or on a star. I find it hard to believe that anyone could think that God is so cut and dry.

Technically, that is what the Bible says is the case. What you believe (and what i believe) is irrelevant. According to the Bible, Heaven is above the firmament (which is in the sky).

stacygoode wrote:
Isn't it possible that Heaven is not something that we can physically concieve of? something bigger than a place? something that is inside of us. Isn't it possible that since I can close my eyes and picture something, that at that moment it exists in my thought, what is anything if it is not thought of? what is anything if it is not beheld?

Of course it's possible. That's just not what the Bible says.

stacygoode wrote:
I'm one of the people who think that if a tree falls in the forrest and noone is around to hear it, then it doesn't make a sound because sound is defined only when it is percieved. I know this doesn't seem to have anything to do with heaven, but what I'm getting at is that existance is dependant on perception. I think that Heaven without being percieved is nothing at all, and perception comes from within. What would life matter without perception? I don't think anything could exist without thought.

Again, interesting... but not what the Bible says.

i have no problems with your beliefs - personally i think they make somewhat more sense than what is actually in the Bible. i have a problem with your dishonesty - just because you like an idea, and you like the Bible, doesn't mean the Bible supports your idea. Claiming that it does when it quite clearly and blatantly does not is simply dishonest. Even more disturbing is that when you were confronted with the evidence that the Bible does not say what you say it does... your reaction was to start throwing around insults implying that we just don't "get" it or that we're just miserable and want to make everyone else miserable, too. And still nothing to say about the reams of quotes and other miscellaneous facts from the Bible that disagree with you!

The idea that Heaven and Hell are states of mind and not places is common in modern Christian thought, and again, i have no problem with that. Christians ignore lots of parts of the Bible (as do Jews and Muslims for their respective texts) - and i'm frankly glad that they do, because i'm not really ok with stoning children to death for being cheeky. If they want to ignore the parts that claim that Heaven and Hell are literal places, i'm fine with that. Power to them!

But if they want to claim that Heaven and Hell are not literal places and that the Bible says so... no, i'm sorry. That's just a falsehood.
stacygoode
Please forgive me if what I have said sounded insulting. I fear my sincerity is lost in black and white. So let me take this opportunity to humble myself and say that I have learned a lot from your questioning and I have had to question some of my own beliefs. You have all helped me very much.

I spent the weekend praying about this, as I don't want to falsely represent my Father or my Savior and what I got back was this... The world has come through many phases of understanding the reality of God. Through all phases of learning God speaks to us in words that we can understand. He spoke of places rather than intangible inner existences because He didn't want to lose us over semantics, and that is all this is. I heard this when I myself was teaching my daughter about God in the very terms I have been disputing. She is four years old and what I am coming to understand myself, would be senseless to her, but she has to start somewhere. Later we will pass the physical thoughts, which are a necessary stage of learning and delve into more intangible forms of thinking. God doesn't seem to care about all this. God just wants us to want Him. What we think to be true, cannot change the Truth. What is truly important is that we do not feel alone, ever, and that we know we are loved more deeply than we can comprehend. In knowing this, we find Heaven and we fill up with what we are meant to give away: Love.

My arguing has served as devisive, and for that I apoligize.

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Also - this bit about heaven and perception is a tautology. Perception is the awareness and interpretation/understanding of sensory information. It comes from the brain in conjunction with your senses. You perceive sounds, sure, but you do not perceive abstract concepts or non-physical phenomena. To be perceived, a phenomenon/entity must be detected by one or more of your senses. If heaven does not exist in a way which can be measured by the senses (and it doesn't - we've looked) then it cannot be perceived. By your argument that means it does not exist. It is a circular argument - tautology (I actually agree that it does not exist, but I don't think that is what you meant).
I have perceived Heaven. It may be hard to believe and impossible to prove. None-the-less, it is true and it was from the Bible that I learned how to "get there." That is why I am still posting in this forum. It is a "place" we can go anytime, anywhere to "refuel." I am unclear about "a new heaven and a new earth." But perhaps that is the chasm in our different interpretations???? I don't know everything, that's for sure. I am still learning, but I know what I have "felt and seen." That is the cause for my insistance.

Again, please forgive me for my insensitivities, and know that I wish nothing but peace for you all.

Also, to address an earlier point that I missed... I don't think Hinduism and Christianity are the same things. What I was getting at is that Jesus Came to resolve the differences between the East and the West and save the WORLD. I don't think that Jesus was a Buddhist, but I think He may have learned from some Eastern thought and that is a personal opinion, practically completely unsupported by the Bible. Who can say what he was doing in the 20-some odd years of His life which are not accounted for? I have a feeling that if He had said anything of this nature, He would have been disregarded entirely by His immediate audience, the Jews. If He had spoken of these things, we probably wouldn't have a New testament. In the same way He could not speak against slavery. It was too common. Instead he told us to love the servants.

I am not going to try to convince anyone of this anymore. I will end by saying that I recieved so many confirmations this weekend that I cannot submit to the idea that Heaven is, at prestent time, a physical place. After Judgment, in the "New Heaven" after "the dead are raised" and "Heaven and Earth pass away" maybe it is a place I don't understand these statements. I don't know that it matters all that much what we think Heaven to be, rather it is imortant to know what we are, and we are each beloved children of God.

God Bless!

Stacy

P.S. It has come to my attention that we may have a slight language barrier, which the "insulting statements" may have stemmed from. I don't speak English, I speak American, or had you guessed?
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
Please forgive me if what I have said sounded insulting. I fear my sincerity is lost in black and white. So let me take this opportunity to humble myself and say that I have learned a lot from your questioning and I have had to question some of my own beliefs. You have all helped me very much.
You are welcome.
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The world has come through many phases of understanding the reality of God. Through all phases of learning God speaks to us in words that we can understand. He spoke of places rather than intangible inner existences because He didn't want to lose us over semantics, and that is all this is.
No - that won't do at all. He could quite easily have said 'heaven is within you' if that is what he meant. Jesus uses lots of difficult concepts in his lessons so i don't see why he would have found any difficulty in getting across the concept that heaven and hell are not places - it is a fairly easy concept to understand. The fact is that he said the opposite because HE MEANT the opposite. He was not speaking to 4-year old children - he was speaking to mature adults who were probably just as intelligent as anyone today. Saying that Jesus meant something other than he said is very easy to do - you can make any crackpot idea by doing that. There is absolutely no reason to believe that he was doing so here because what he said is consistent, and it is also consistent with the Old Testament which expresses his core beliefs as a Jew.
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My arguing has served as devisive, and for that I apoligize.
No apology necessary. Thesis+antithesis=synthesis. The only requirement in debate is honesty - that is where I personally have found a problem with your postings..
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I have perceived Heaven. It may be hard to believe and impossible to prove. None-the-less, it is true and it was from the Bible that I learned how to "get there." That is why I am still posting in this forum. It is a "place" we can go anytime, anywhere to "refuel." I am unclear about "a new heaven and a new earth." But perhaps that is the chasm in our different interpretations???? I don't know everything, that's for sure. I am still learning, but I know what I have "felt and seen." That is the cause for my insistance.
OK so did you taste heaven, touch heaven, smell heaven, hear heaven or see heaven? If you did non of those then you did not perceive heaven. If you did then you should be able to describe what it smelled, felt, tasted, looked, sounded like.
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Also, to address an earlier point that I missed... I don't think Hinduism and Christianity are the same things. What I was getting at is that Jesus Came to resolve the differences between the East and the West and save the WORLD. I don't think that Jesus was a Buddhist, but I think He may have learned from some Eastern thought and that is a personal opinion, practically completely unsupported by the Bible. Who can say what he was doing in the 20-some odd years of His life which are not accounted for?
Well, since we don't know then there is little point speculating - you could propose any speculative hypothesis, no matter how ridiculous. The fact is that there is no record in the bible of Jesus visiting the East and there is no reason to believe, from what is written in the bible, that Jesus had any concept of Eastern belief systems. Much of Jesus' teaching contradicts core beliefs in Buddhism, Hinduism, Tao/Daoism etc so to say that he 'reconciled' or 'resolved' the differences is simply not true. Jesus came to save those who bought into his scheme - Buddhists, Taoists and Hindus do not buy into it.
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I am not going to try to convince anyone of this anymore. I will end by saying that I recieved so many confirmations this weekend that I cannot submit to the idea that Heaven is, at prestent time, a physical place.
Despite the numerous biblical references? OK - that is fine but you cannot then say that the bible is a literal truth - to do so is contradictory, since what the bible says is clear.
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P.S. It has come to my attention that we may have a slight language barrier, which the "insulting statements" may have stemmed from. I don't speak English, I speak American, or had you guessed?
Yes, I knew that. Indi is Canadian and probably also knew that. The insulting statements do not stem from the difference between UK english and US english I'm afraid...
stacygoode
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stacygoode wrote:
Please forgive me if what I have said sounded insulting. I fear my sincerity is lost in black and white. So let me take this opportunity to humble myself and say that I have learned a lot from your questioning and I have had to question some of my own beliefs. You have all helped me very much.
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bikerman wrote:
You are welcome.

Great!
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stacygoode wrote:
The world has come through many phases of understanding the reality of God. Through all phases of learning God speaks to us in words that we can understand. He spoke of places rather than intangible inner existences because He didn't want to lose us over semantics, and that is all this is.
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bikerman wrote:
No - that won't do at all. He could quite easily have said 'heaven is within you' if that is what he meant. Jesus uses lots of difficult concepts in his lessons so i don't see why he would have found any difficulty in getting across the concept that heaven and hell are not places - it is a fairly easy concept to understand. The fact is that he said the opposite because HE MEANT the opposite. He was not speaking to 4-year old children - he was speaking to mature adults who were probably just as intelligent as anyone today. Saying that Jesus meant something other than he said is very easy to do - you can make any crackpot idea by doing that. There is absolutely no reason to believe that he was doing so here because what he said is consistent, and it is also consistent with the Old Testament which expresses his core beliefs as a Jew.
Jesus did say "heaven is within you." because the world was maturing.
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stacygoode wrote:
My arguing has served as devisive, and for that I apoligize.
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bikerman wrote:
No apology necessary. Thesis+antithesis=synthesis. The only requirement in debate is honesty - that is where I personally have found a problem with your postings..
Well put. I simply don't see how I've been dishonest. I use passages, and you use passages to the contrary, both are honest in intention, and both are probably flawed in interperetation.
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stacygoode wrote:
I have perceived Heaven. It may be hard to believe and impossible to prove. None-the-less, it is true and it was from the Bible that I learned how to "get there." That is why I am still posting in this forum. It is a "place" we can go anytime, anywhere to "refuel." I am unclear about "a new heaven and a new earth." But perhaps that is the chasm in our different interpretations???? I don't know everything, that's for sure. I am still learning, but I know what I have "felt and seen." That is the cause for my insistance.
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bikerman wrote:
OK so did you taste heaven, touch heaven, smell heaven, hear heaven or see heaven? If you did non of those then you did not perceive heaven. If you did then you should be able to describe what it smelled, felt, tasted, looked, sounded like.
All of the above. I suppose the way to put it is that when I find heaven, I see, feel, hear, taste, and touch it all around me, because I am perceiving through love and unity rather than fear/guilt/whatever else the devil would have us see, and separation.
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stacygoode wrote:
Also, to address an earlier point that I missed... I don't think Hinduism and Christianity are the same things. What I was getting at is that Jesus Came to resolve the differences between the East and the West and save the WORLD. I don't think that Jesus was a Buddhist, but I think He may have learned from some Eastern thought and that is a personal opinion, practically completely unsupported by the Bible. Who can say what he was doing in the 20-some odd years of His life which are not accounted for?
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bikerman wrote:
Well, since we don't know then there is little point speculating - you could propose any speculative hypothesis, no matter how ridiculous. The fact is that there is no record in the bible of Jesus visiting the East and there is no reason to believe, from what is written in the bible, that Jesus had any concept of Eastern belief systems. Much of Jesus' teaching contradicts core beliefs in Buddhism, Hinduism, Tao/Daoism etc so to say that he 'reconciled' or 'resolved' the differences is simply not true. Jesus came to save those who bought into his scheme - Buddhists, Taoists and Hindus do not buy into it.
I understand. This is my opinion, but in the same way that I cannot speak for all buddhists, taoists, and hindus, neither can you.
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stacygoodewrote:
I am not going to try to convince anyone of this anymore. I will end by saying that I recieved so many confirmations this weekend that I cannot submit to the idea that Heaven is, at prestent time, a physical place.
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bikerman wrote:
Despite the numerous biblical references? OK - that is fine but you cannot then say that the bible is a literal truth - to do so is contradictory, since what the bible says is clear.
I suppose I just feel like I have it clear in my mind and I have presented my thoughts in a way that will speak to those who are on the same spiritual "level" (not as an insult, everything is valid while we are learning) as I am. I can't expect you to suddenly believe in God, and you can't expect me to stop. I have responded to you references and you have responded to mine. I have clustedred yours because they are repetative. I see how this seems to support you however I can't put asside the exceptions just because they are outnumbered. i will repeat myself, the world is maturing in it's understanding of God.
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stacygoode wrote:
P.S. It has come to my attention that we may have a slight language barrier, which the "insulting statements" may have stemmed from. I don't speak English, I speak American, or had you guessed?
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bikerman wrote:
Yes, I knew that. Indi is Canadian and probably also knew that. The insulting statements do not stem from the difference between UK english and US english I'm afraid...
I thought perhaps not, so again, I apoligize for my insensitivity. I do not look down on you, I regard you as one of my many teachers.
God bless you, Chris.
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
Jesus did say "heaven is within you." because the world was maturing.
Indi dealt with this quote above.
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Well put. I simply don't see how I've been dishonest. I use passages, and you use passages to the contrary, both are honest in intention, and both are probably flawed in interperetation.
I gave you 22 quotes from the bible that refer to heaven as a place. I don't think you have dealt with a single one. I could give you another 20-30 but I see no point since you dismiss them all with the same blanket assertions and choose to settle on one quote which appears to support your point (when in fact it doesn't, as Indi explained).
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I have perceived Heaven. It may be hard to believe and impossible to prove. None-the-less, it is true and it was from the Bible that I learned how to "get there." That is why I am still posting in this forum. It is a "place" we can go anytime, anywhere to "refuel." I am unclear about "a new heaven and a new earth." But perhaps that is the chasm in our different interpretations???? I don't know everything, that's for sure. I am still learning, but I know what I have "felt and seen." That is the cause for my insistance.
So what colour is heaven? How does it smell? What does it sound like? What texture is it? What does it look like?
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I understand. This is my opinion, but in the same way that I cannot speak for all buddhists, taoists, and hindus, neither can you.
But I do not claim to. I simply point out that core beliefs in those religions are not compatible with Christianity. That is not an opinion, it is a fact.
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I suppose I just feel like I have it clear in my mind and I have presented my thoughts in a way that will speak to those who are on the same spiritual "level" (not as an insult, everything is valid while we are learning) as I am. I can't expect you to suddenly believe in God, and you can't expect me to stop. I have responded to you references and you have responded to mine. I have clustedred yours because they are repetative. I see how this seems to support you however I can't put asside the exceptions just because they are outnumbered. i will repeat myself, the world is maturing in it's understanding of God.
No, you have not dealt with mine at all. You have avoided doing so all the way through the thread. Yes, I (and Indi) have dealt with yours in some detail.
deanhills
Bikerman wrote:
I haven't got a clue what any of that means. If heaven and hell are inside you and you cease to exist then where do they go? If they are not inside you then they are someplace else. What's all this stuff about 'focus'?


Heaven and hell transcend us. They are a state of being beyond space and time. If we pass on heaven and hell continue. We continue in a different form. I cannot imagine what form it would be except that it would be completely different to what it is now, without any of the physical senses. Closest to describe it is spirit. So if our form is no longer the same, then heaven and hell will be completely different from before.
stacygoode
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Bikerman:
I haven't got a clue what any of that means. If heaven and hell are inside you and you cease to exist then where do they go? If they are not inside you then they are someplace else. What's all this stuff about 'focus'?



deanhill:
Heaven and hell transcend us. They are a state of being beyond space and time. If we pass on heaven and hell continue. We continue in a different form. I cannot imagine what form it would be except that it would be completely different to what it is now, without any of the physical senses. Closest to describe it is spirit. So if our form is no longer the same, then heaven and hell will be completely different from before.


precisely. additionally, I will not cease to exist. My body will pass, but I'm not all that fond of being bound anyway.
Bikerman
deanhills wrote:
Heaven and hell transcend us. They are a state of being beyond space and time. If we pass on heaven and hell continue. We continue in a different form. I cannot imagine what form it would be except that it would be completely different to what it is now, without any of the physical senses. Closest to describe it is spirit. So if our form is no longer the same, then heaven and hell will be completely different from before.
Still makes no sense to me. If heaven and hell are beyond spacetime then they are not influenced by what goes on in spacetime. Our death would have no effect on heaven/hell whatsoever. Perhaps you mean that you would perceive it/them differently? But that implies that you can already perceive it/them - which is clearly not possible if heaven/hell are beyond spacetime, since you can only perceive things within spacetime....all in all I'm confused...
deanhills
Bikerman wrote:
Still makes no sense to me. If heaven and hell are beyond spacetime then they are not influenced by what goes on in spacetime. Our death would have no effect on heaven/hell whatsoever. Perhaps you mean that you would perceive it/them differently? But that implies that you can already perceive it/them - which is clearly not possible if heaven/hell are beyond spacetime, since you can only perceive things within spacetime....all in all I'm confused...


To be truthful I cannot grasp your argument either. How would you explain imagination? Faith, hope, love? Is there space for it in science? And science fiction?
stacygoode
woops, I wasn't done....

You can't say the translators were wrong here and right in the places where it is convinient for you. I am refering our other thread on Genesis. I can choose to believe this translation,a nd it is not the only grounds on which I am speaking. I am also coming from the point of the parables, which you have chosen to dismiss because they are subject to interperatation. I think that is the point of using parables. It gives God room to speak to our hearts, which is what He has done.

the feelings of heaven are just as they are on earth, but they become symbols for which I am thankful, rather than things to fight against. The light becomes brighter and God makes His presence known. Everything becomes peaceful. Even the raor of an engine and the smell of exhaust. Heaven looks like you, my cat, a flower, a tree. Hard to explain to those who don't believe, but Your disbelief doesn't make me wrong, it just makes your perception cold and hard on the palette. for this reason I pray for you. I wish that you could experience what I know is yours to have. I also know that God would not have created you if it wasn't his intention to show Himself to you, so You will see heaven, and then perhaps you could tell me about it. It is a matter of choice.

Our death has no effect at all, but for learning what is valuable. this is a class. everything is a learning aid for the Holy Spirit. Space and time included. They are smaller than you.
Bikerman
deanhills wrote:
To be truthful I cannot grasp your argument either. How would you explain imagination? Faith, hope, love? Is there space for it in science? And science fiction?
Yes there is space in science for anything which can be tested. I would explain them as states of mind and/or emotions. The mind is a set of neurones which are multiply connected to each other and between which electrical impulses pass. Connections are continually being made and unmade in the brain as we experience things - this is what makes our minds unique. Overlaid on the mind are chemicals which enhance or restrict the electrical flow between the neurones. This produces what we perceive as emotional states.
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
woops, I wasn't done....

You can't say the translators were wrong here and right in the places where it is convinient for you. I am refering our other thread on Genesis. I can choose to believe this translation,a nd it is not the only grounds on which I am speaking. I am also coming from the point of the parables, which you have chosen to dismiss because they are subject to interperatation. I think that is the point of using parables. It gives God room to speak to our hearts, which is what He has done.
I have said no such thing. Indi gave you a complete explanation of the passage from Matthew. You have given no explanation of the many passages I quoted for you which refer directly to heaven as a place. I did not dismiss any of the parables in the bible at all. I merely said that some of my quotes were not from parables (ie they were not accounts of what Jesus said) but were direct reportage from the disciples themselves. Being reportage they do not need interpretation - they are accounts of what they saw.
(I won't bother with the rest because it makes no sense to me so I can't usefully comment on it).
stacygoode
That sounds like an opinion on the parables, as I'm sure you weren't around to talk it over with the desciples. You used what Indi said, so I assumed you agreed with Indi. If you are waiting for me to explain the three heavens, i need some time to gather my information, but I know it is there. I'll get back to you in a bit...

Deanhills,Chris, Indi, God bless.
stacygoode
You know, you sound like a logical intelligent guy. If I may, God gave you that brain so that you could see that heaven (God's realm) and the physical realm are opposite, if God could be opposed. The parables are meant for thought and you seem like a prime candidate for interpereting them. suspend your disbelief for a moment ant try to immagine what's left without the physical. If it were just you and your thoughts. just try. okay, I'll get back to you...
Bikerman
If you want examples of references to heaven as a place, which are not in parables from Jesus, then that is no problem.
Try the following: (and I'll use your version of the bible to make it easy)
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Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
Matthew 28:2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.
Mark 1:10 As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
Mark 1;11 And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Mark 6:42 Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all.
Mark 7:34 He looked up to heaven and with a deep sigh said to him, "Ephphatha!" (which means, "Be opened!" ).
Mark 8:11 The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven.
Mark 6:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
Luke 2:15 When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."
Luke 3:21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened
Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased"
Luke 9:51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem.
Luke 9:54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them ?"
Luke 22:43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.
John 1:32 Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.
John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
Acts 1:2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.
Acts 2:2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:19 I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, " 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand
Acts 3:21 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Acts 7;55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Acts 7:56 "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
Acts 9:3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.
Acts 10:11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners.
Acts 10:16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
Acts 11:9 "The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.'
Romans 10:6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' "
1 Corinthians 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
1 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
Ephesians 1:20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
Philippians 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Collosians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Collosians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Collosians 4:1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.
1 Thesalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

That is about half of the NT quotes I could give. None of these are from Jesus parables - they are ALL reportage.
How many quotes do I have to provide before you actually admit that the bible refers to heaven as a place? Another 50? I can, if you like...
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
You know, you sound like a logical intelligent guy. If I may, God gave you that brain so that you could see that heaven (God's realm) and the physical realm are opposite, if God could be opposed. The parables are meant for thought and you seem like a prime candidate for interpereting them. suspend your disbelief for a moment ant try to immagine what's left without the physical. If it were just you and your thoughts. just try. okay, I'll get back to you...
Err..God didn't give me anything, my brain is a product of billions of years of evolution. I don't believe in God(s) so it goes without saying that I don't believe in heaven or hell either. I can easily suspend my disbelief but I cannot conceive of what is left without the physical and it always astonishes me when people claim they can. I can theorise about lack of spacetime and I can write expressions in math which deal with the concepts. I can't really imagine it, however, since I have no frame of reference.
stacygoode
Alrighty, Chris.

I have a long list as well, but I think that a few will do...
first off, why would anyone in the Bible, if there is only one heaven say "heavenS?" there are multiple references to heavens (plural) I was going to name them off, but you obviously have the resources to do this, yourself. So I will just point out a couple.

1kings 8:27 - "But will God really dwell on Earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven (implying that there are more than one) cannot contain you. How much less this Temple I have built?"

2Chronicles 2:6 - "But who then is to build a temple for Him, since the heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain him?"

Job 11:7,8 - "Can you fathom the mysteris of God? Can you Probe the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than the heavens-what can you do? They are deeper than the grave-what do you know?"

Psalm 57:5 - "Be exhaulted, O God, above the heavens."

Need I go on? I do not claim that the bible does not speak of places called heaven, I only say that God cannot fit in a place.

Conversly, We are the temple of God, and the Holy spirit resides within us. (1corinthians 3:16; 1corinthians 6:19; 2corinthians 6:16) Are we not, then bigger than the heavens? If God fits in me, but not in the physical that surrounds us, then I am bigger than any place, and so are you.

Think on that, aka-Selah. God bless.
Bikerman
The heavens are what is up above us. Heaven is also up above us. Both are places - one is a general term and one is specific. I don't see what you are getting at. None of those quotes imply that heaven is within us - they merely refer to heavens...what does that show?
Note that I do not say that the bible is consistent or that it does not contradict itself - just the opposite. It is inconsistent and does indeed contradict itself. That is not the issue. We were discussing whether there is any reference to heaven as a place - there are many such references. Does God abide in heaven? Clearly he does - look again at the quotes I gave.
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Need I go on? I do not claim that the bible does not speak of places called heaven, I only say that God cannot fit in a place.
But you DO claim that heaven is not a place - you have said so.
I gave you numerous quotes which say both that heaven is a place and that God DOES 'live' there. The quotes are specific - they talk about heaven (singular), not heavens (plural). Are you saying that they are wrong or that heaven doesn't mean heaven? I really don't understand your point.
stacygoode
If you read the list that you quoted, you will find that not all of them necessarily refer to a place. once you loose the idea of places and only places, some of those passages read differently. That is what I mean by, "there are layers in the Bible." There is a purely physical interperatation, and then there is an awakened interperataion. How else could anyone devote themselves to the study of one book for their entire life? The same goes for the Tao Te Ching. Every time I read it, it becomes more beautiful. May you be blessed with what I have seen. Not that I am above you at all, but I read with faith.

When and why did you lose your faith, Chris? It oughta be a good story, sincerely.

I love you. God loves you more, but I would like to hear your story.[/i]
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
If you read the list that you quoted, you will find that not all of them necessarily refer to a place. once you loose the idea of places and only places, some of those passages read differently. That is what I mean by, "there are layers in the Bible." There is a purely physical interperatation, and then there is an awakened interperataion. How else could anyone devote themselves to the study of one book for their entire life? The same goes for the Tao Te Ching. Every time I read it, it becomes more beautiful. May you be blessed with what I have seen. Not that I am above you at all, but I read with faith.
Even if there was one reference we could not ignore it, could we? The fact is, however, that there are many such references...here's just 5 (we could discuss many more, of course, but I'll be interested to see how you deal with some specific examples and I'll keep it to a small number).
And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Sounds like a place and sounds like God lives there.
There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.
ditto
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
ditto
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
ditto
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
ditto.
So tell me then, how can you 'interpret' those passages as meaning heaven is not a place and God does not abide there? What is your 'awakened' interpretation of this very specific passages?

All I see is you doing what you have consistently done throughout the debate - claiming you have some privileged, 'awakened' knowledge of the bible that is not apparent to me/Indi/others. Unfortunately, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, it is an delusion.

My story is not relevant to this particular debate.
stacygoode
this is good. this is what I was waiting for.
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And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Sounds like a place and sounds like God lives there.
People who think that they are mere bodies rely on symbols that they can understand. God wanted himself to be heard, so he came in a form that everyone could perceive. he wants, above all else, for us to know him.
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There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.
ditto
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After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
ditto
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But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Nu12:6 - "when the prophet of the Lord is among you, I reveal myself to him in visions."
Joel 2:28 - "your young men will see visions"
Ac 2:17 - "your young men will see visions"
and ditto, it is symbolic. When I am in turmoil, and I cry out to God. Despite my beliefs, I look to the sky.
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As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
Again, how would a body see if it didn't come from a place they knew of? God wants for us to know him, so he speaks to us in whatever way that knowing him would be accomplished.

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All I see is you doing what you have consistently done throughout the debate - claiming you have some priviledged knowledge of the bible that is not apparent to me/Indi/others. Unfortunately, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, it is an illusion.
God has not chosen me, so much as I have chosen him. I am not privelaged, I am open.

no, your story isn't relevant, unless you begin to believe. At that point it becomes your testimony, and you are obligated to share. not for my sake or God's sake, but for your own sake.

God bless.
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
this is good. this is what I was waiting for.
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And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Sounds like a place and sounds like God lives there.
People who think that they are mere bodies rely on symbols that they can understand. God wanted himself to be heard, so he came in a form that everyone could perceive. he wants, above all else, for us to know him.
This is completely irrelevant. The text refers to a place - the abode of God. You cannot deny it so you go off into some metaphysical nonsense to hide your confusion.
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There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.
ditto
Ditto what? An angel comes from heaven (a place).
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After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
ditto
Ditto what? Jesus goes to a place - heaven - where God lives.
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But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Nu12:6 - "when the prophet of the Lord is among you, I reveal myself to him in visions."
Joel 2:28 - "your young men will see visions"
Ac 2:17 - "your young men will see visions"
and ditto, it is symbolic. When I am in turmoil, and I cry out to God. Despite my beliefs, I look to the sky.
Garbage. You have not provided one jot of scriptural support for the contention that heaven is not a place.
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As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
Again, how would a body see if it didn't come from a place they knew of? God wants for us to know him, so he speaks to us in whatever way that knowing him would be accomplished.
This is more nonsense. Of course you can see places you don't know of. I see places everyday I never saw before.

You can't answer a straight question because you have nowhere to turn. All you do is avoid the issue by launching into metaphysical nonsense and giving out of context quotes. On the one hand you say the bible is literal and then when faced with literal quotes you don't like, you simply resort to saying they are visions or some other metaphysical nonsense. I find your entire thesis dishonest and your debating approach incomprehensible. You desperately want heaven to not be a place. You therefore redefine any scripture that says otherwise as a vision or a parable or some other non-literal interpretation. The fact is that heaven is consistently spoken of as a place - a specific place where God lives.

Using this approach you can make any passage say anything you like.

You don't need a bible - why not use Moby Dick. Clearly the whale is actually God, since we would not be able to understand God unless he appeared in a guise we are familiar with. Clearly Ahab is a metaphor for us and when Ahab tries to kill God it is actually just a Freudian metaphor - killing the thing you love most..

Or use Noddy. Clearly Noddy represents mankind - being made of wood is a metaphor for us being made of clay. Big Ears is clearly a metaphor for God since he takes pity on Noddy and provides for his needs. Toyland is obviously a metaphor for earth whilst Mr Plod is clearly the devil. Obviously the Tubby Bears are the apostles who lead Noddy to recognise the divinity of Big Ears. Noddy's little car is obviously a metaphor for his spiritual journey through life, and they all live happily ever after in Noddy's cottage (obviously a metaphor for heaven).

Bah!
Bikerman
I must try this interesting new approach to theology. Let's try matthew 28

28:1 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

Clearly the Sabbath is really a Tuesday. Dawn means evening, and the first day of the week indicates that Monday is the figment of a derranged imagination and doesn't really exist. Mary Magdelene is actually a small man called John Smith and the other Mary is a large teapot.

28:2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.

The earthquake is obviously a metaphor for a light drizzle. The angel of the Lord is a rug-salesman called Nigel. Heaven is actually just down the road, where the rug-shop is. Rolling back the stone is obviously a metaphor for lighting up a joint.

28:3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.

Lightning clearly means a badly fitting suit and snow is really black.

Now it all makes sense...
stacygoode
If you expected anything but metaphysical "mumbojumbo" then you are in the wrong forum. I will not give your latest comments the dignity of a response. I am not insulted personaly (though I think that's what you were going for) but I can't pretend that what you are saying is relevant.
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This is completely irrelevant. The text refers to a place - the abode of God. You cannot deny it so you go off into some metaphysical nonsense to hide your confusion.

I think you see. It is not my place to make you respect God, but I think you get it. "mumbojumbo" is not an arguement, and it is not your style. I tell you the Truth, and you come back with "you're confused?"
Let me remind you that this is not your bag. You can speak with authority on many topics, but not here. If you believed in God, He would explain the mumbojumbo to you himself, but I am left to do this for him because I can speak to you through my fingers on some keyboard on the other side of the world. You rely on these symbols. I have shown you that God is beyond proof, symbols, human wisdom, and the Earth itself. All these things, he created, and we created the symbols with which to define his creations. We named the Lords creations, and we called them separate. That doesn't make it so.
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Ditto what? An angel comes from heaven (a place)
ditto, god used symbols to talk to those who live in a word full of symbols.
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Ditto what? Jesus goes to a place - heaven - where God lives.
Ditto, God used symbols to reach those who live in a world full of symbols.
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Garbage. You have not provided one jot of scriptural support for the contention that heaven is not a place.
Garbage? Dear, 1Corinthians 3:16 - "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroy's God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred and you are that temple."
Fine if you don't believe, but when you call the word of our Lord "garbage," I must stand up and say "enough." So, enough. Get behind me. You seem well versed, you should understand this, at the least.
To the Chris wiating for relief, I pray for your relief.
God bless you.
HalfBloodPrince
Lmao, I almost snorted coffee all over my keyboard (at Bikerman's post) Razz

Staceygoode, why would God say that you GO to Heaven or Hell (depending on what you do in life) if it's all this metaphorical blah you're talking about? Why would God give such clear-cut definitions of what Heaven and Hell are if they turn out to just be emotional sanctuaries of metaphorical inner heartiness or whatever?

Either they are places, Heaven is a nice place and Hell is a 'not-nice' place...

OR I am going to spend all of eternity inside of a heart. And that does not seem very fun.

See, Heaven and Hell can't possibly be IN my heart, because, well, the only thing in my heart is blood and the blood vessels connecting to it! Smile
stacygoode wrote:
Let me remind you that this is not your bag. You can speak with authority on many topics, but not here. If you believed in God, He would explain the mumbojumbo to you himself, but I am left to do this for him because I can speak to you through my fingers on some keyboard on the other side of the world.

Well, let me remind you that this is my bag. I am a Muslim. A pretty devout one too, if I say so myself. I believe in God. I pray...five times a day. And sorry to say, I outright disagree with you. I've disagreed with Bikerman on many counts before, so don't think I'm just taking sides.

What do you and your fingers plan to convince us of? That Heaven and Hell, two PLACES God has defined in the OT, NT, and FT, are not places but inner sates of mind/heart? I'm not trying to mock you; just think about it. With you being a Christian (at least I think you are?), I'm quite sure you believe God will send good-doers to Heaven, bad-doers to Hell. Well, if we are ALREADY in our own Heaven or Hell, how does this make sense? Do we get reincarnated? I don't think that's what your religion teaches you.
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ditto, god used symbols to talk to those who live in a word full of symbols.

No, he used angels. Gabriel/Jibreel to be precise. The message from God was passed from angel to Prophet, to community (exluding exceptions, for example, such as Moses who actually spoke to God).
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Ditto, God used symbols to reach those who live in a world full of symbols.

Again, God -> Angels -> Prophets -> mankind.

From the prophets, these messages became written down scriptures (please don't tell me you think God actually physically wrote (ie. letters on paper) the OT, NT, and FT).

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Cornithians 3:16: Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Ok, where does it say HEAVEN and HELL dwelleth in you? In Islam, it's said that God is closer to you than your jugular vein. That's meant to show that you can't hide anything from God, God knows what you are doing and thinking all the time. This doesn't mean Heaven and Hell are in you.

Heaven is a place. Hell is a place. If you don't like it - tough! Or change your religion to something that does support these ideas you claim, because I can't think of any type of Christianity supporting this (minus maybe those sects made up of three or four people).
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
If you expected anything but metaphysical "mumbojumbo" then you are in the wrong forum. I will not give your latest comments the dignity of a response. I am not insulted personaly (though I think that's what you were going for) but I can't pretend that what you are saying is relevant.
Oh it is - very relevant. It shows what happens when someone thinks they can speak for God and reinterpret what is clearly written. I try never to use personal insults - that is not my style.
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I think you see. It is not my place to make you respect God, but I think you get it. "mumbojumbo" is not an arguement, and it is not your style. I tell you the Truth, and you come back with "you're confused?"
Such arrogance. The truth? Whose truth is that? Not the truth of most Christians I know. Not the truth of the bible - just your personal interpretation of the bible, which you arrive at in order to fit it into your preconceptions.
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Let me remind you that this is not your bag. You can speak with authority on many topics, but not here. If you believed in God, He would explain the mumbojumbo to you himself, but I am left to do this for him because I can speak to you through my fingers on some keyboard on the other side of the world. You rely on these symbols.
Oh - so you have to believe in God to read and understand the bible then? LOL - nice get out. Ever heard of the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy? You should look it up. I know a great many religious people (a great deal more learned in the bible than you appear to be) who would laugh at your 'interpretation'. I was taught by some of them, and I have a pretty good knowledge of the bible. What you are saying is that because I don't believe in God I can't see how to ignore certain passages and redefine others in order to fit an agenda. You are partially correct - I can see how to do it (as my satire above was supposed to demonstrate) but I don't think it is either honest or required.
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I have shown you that God is beyond proof, symbols, human wisdom, and the Earth itself.
You have shown nothing of the kind. You have STATED it as if you were some authority, but since you aren't I don't count that as 'showing'
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All these things, he created, and we created the symbols with which to define his creations. We named the Lords creations, and we called them separate. That doesn't make it so.
Symbols are what we have. God knows that. When God uses certain symbols he knows full well what they mean. If God wanted to say heaven is not a place, but is within you, then he would have said so. He didn't, he said it IS a place. Ergo either God is stupid, God is lying or God really meant that heaven is a place...
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Ditto what? An angel comes from heaven (a place)
ditto, god used symbols to talk to those who live in a word full of symbols.
So why not use different symbols - 'an angel appeared' for example, would do nicely. Why say 'an angel came down from heaven'?
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Ditto what? Jesus goes to a place - heaven - where God lives.
Ditto, God used symbols to reach those who live in a world full of symbols.
So again he could have used the correct symbols. Rather than saying "he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God." the bible could easily have said 'Jesus disappeared into the hearts of all men' or something similar. It doesn't say that. It says he went up to a place called heaven where God is.
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Garbage? Dear, 1Corinthians 3:16 - "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroy's God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred and you are that temple."
That is again irrelevant. Jesus is saying that life is sacred and that the body is a temple to God. He is NOT saying that heaven is contained in the body or anything like it. Surely you know the difference between a church/temple and heaven?
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Fine if you don't believe, but when you call the word of our Lord "garbage," I must stand up and say "enough." So, enough. Get behind me.
I have not called 'the word of our Lord garbage' - I call your revisionist interpretation of it garbage - and it is. I do think that much of the bible is nonsensical and illogical but that is another story.
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You seem well versed, you should understand this, at the least.
I understand quite a bit - I don't understand your interpretation of the bible because it is inconsistent, partial and plain wrong.
stacygoode
I'm glad if you get a laugh out of all this, this world takes itself far too seriously. But I'm not going to go around in circles.i've stated my case, and I've given this a lot of time and energy. I've covered your inquisitions, halfbloodprince, and rather than repeating myself I will ask you te read through what I have already posted. The idea if being confined to a space is precisely what I am deabating against.

I have learned what I came (unknowingly) to learn. I thought that I was coming here to set up a website to promote my musical ambitions, so I am going to forge ahead and won't be checking back but to fill my quota to support my webpage. Please understand that I don't mean to ignore you and I pray that God blesses you all with the peace and love that Jesus came to give us.

God bless you and keep you, all.
stacygoode
P.S. (I can only imagine...)

"oh, I see! running away, are you?! Come back here! I'll bite your ankles off!" -Black Knight

very fun indeed. thank you all!
HalfBloodPrince
No, I am not saying that. If you do not want to continue a discussion that you started, that is up to you and there's nothing I can do about it.
Klaw 2
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
I've disagreed with Bikerman on many counts before, so don't think I'm just taking sides.


Hmm because you disagreed with some people on something else doesn't mean you can't together disagree on something else, joining sides in this doesn't matter...

But further on topic. In the bible it is stated:
hell is a place where you go for the rest of eternity if you are a bad person
heaven is a place where you go for the rest of eternity if you are a good person

It's obvious and why are we discussing this what's the point? I mean bikerman gave many examples and I thought it was pretty clear..
HalfBloodPrince
Klaw 2 wrote:
Hmm because you disagreed with some people on something else doesn't mean you can't together disagree on something else, joining sides in this doesn't matter...

Yeah, that's what I was saying.

Anyway, stacygoode, don't reply if you don't want to. I just want to ask one last question for you: If we are already experiencing our own Heaven or Hell, then what will happen to us when we die?
deanhills
HalfBloodPrince wrote:

Anyway, stacygoode, don't reply if you don't want to. I just want to ask one last question for you: If we are already experiencing our own Heaven or Hell, then what will happen to us when we die?


I'm not replying for stacygoode, but for me when we die, everything continues the same without the physical body, and senses attached to it. Heaven and hell are the same,except of course we are not. Our physical body is deceased. Wonder whether one could use the simile of a butterfly in a spiritual sense? Smile
HalfBloodPrince
deanhills wrote:
HalfBloodPrince wrote:

Anyway, stacygoode, don't reply if you don't want to. I just want to ask one last question for you: If we are already experiencing our own Heaven or Hell, then what will happen to us when we die?


I'm not replying for stacygoode, but for me when we die, everything continues the same without the physical body, and senses attached to it. Heaven and hell are the same,except of course we are not. Our physical body is deceased. Wonder whether one could use the simile of a butterfly in a spiritual sense? Smile


So...then why would God tell us to be good and righteous in our lives if we were to simply carry on without a body?
Bikerman
deanhills wrote:
HalfBloodPrince wrote:

Anyway, stacygoode, don't reply if you don't want to. I just want to ask one last question for you: If we are already experiencing our own Heaven or Hell, then what will happen to us when we die?


I'm not replying for stacygoode, but for me when we die, everything continues the same without the physical body, and senses attached to it. Heaven and hell are the same,except of course we are not. Our physical body is deceased. Wonder whether one could use the simile of a butterfly in a spiritual sense? Smile

Everything continues the same? That might be a pretty good version of hell actually. Sensory deprivation for eternity - bound to be nasty.
Of course there is absolutely no biblical support for this idea - you just made it up...
stacygoode
Hello compadres,

I just can't stay away...

This is what I believe.

Like I said before, right now heaven is a place within my spirit. If I am still, and loose my physical senses for a moment then I can enter heaven. My Spirit is there already, but I can choose to take my mental awareness (this is a physical term) away form God and put it in "hell" anytime, not that I ever want to, but I have bad days. I go to heaven, now, to "refuel" for the battle with my flesh and to fill up on grace that I may share it with everyone else. Once my flesh is beneath the ground my spirit will be released to join with the spirit of God, and I will no longer struggle. Where is the spirit of God? within you, with Jesus, beyond time. (Ecclesiastes 3:11 - "He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.")

God thought the physical into being, not the other way around. The physical cannot define or confine it's Creator. God didn't go find mateiral out of which He could make stuff, He made stuff out of Himself. He breathed the world into existance, and we will all return to our source, at that point Satan will be conquered and time will be over. But Jesus has done this already, beyond time. He spoke of things before his time and after his time as though contemporary with his time. And his last word were either (depending on the gospel you read).. "it is finished," or "Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit." Those are the thoughts we should always be ready to think. We never know when the time will come. I am always gladly ready to say, "my struggle is over, Father receive my Spirit." Not that I have a death wish, but I don't want to live in this body any longer than God wants me to.

God bless you all! Be joyous! This is good news.

Stacy
HalfBloodPrince
stacygoode wrote:
Hello compadres,

I just can't stay away...

This is what I believe.

Like I said before, right now heaven is a place within my spirit. If I am still, and loose my physical senses for a moment then I can enter heaven. My Spirit is there already, but I can choose to take my mental awareness (this is a physical term) away form God and put it in "hell" anytime, not that I ever want to, but I have bad days. I go to heaven, now, to "refuel" for the battle with my flesh and to fill up on grace that I may share it with everyone else. Once my flesh is beneath the ground my spirit will be released to join with the spirit of God, and I will no longer struggle. Where is the spirit of God? within you, with Jesus, beyond time. (Ecclesiastes 3:11 - "He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.")

God thought the physical into being, not the other way around. The physical cannot define or confine it's Creator. God didn't go find mateiral out of which He could make stuff, He made stuff out of Himself. He breathed the world into existance, and we will all return to our source, at that point Satan will be conquered and time will be over. But Jesus has done this already, beyond time. He spoke of things before his time and after his time as though contemporary with his time. And his last word were either (depending on the gospel you read).. "it is finished," or "Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit." Those are the thoughts we should always be ready to think. We never know when the time will come. I am always gladly ready to say, "my struggle is over, Father receive my Spirit." Not that I have a death wish, but I don't want to live in this body any longer than God wants me to.

God bless you all! Be joyous! This is good news.

Stacy


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-_-

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Like I said before, right now heaven is a place within my spirit. If I am still, and loose my physical senses for a moment then I can enter heaven. My Spirit is there already, but I can choose to take my mental awareness (this is a physical term) away form God and put it in "hell" anytime, not that I ever want to, but I have bad days. I go to heaven, now, to "refuel" for the battle with my flesh and to fill up on grace that I may share it with everyone else. Once my flesh is beneath the ground my spirit will be released to join with the spirit of God, and I will no longer struggle. Where is the spirit of God? within you, with Jesus, beyond time. (Ecclesiastes 3:11 - "He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.")


"Like I said before, right now heaven is a place within my spirit..."

Ermm...didn't you say it's part of your "heart" before? Now spirit? What's next, liver? Please pick and stick with your decision. Smile

I see no point in replying to the metaphorical story you have provided. Please give SOME scriptural proof (I'm afraid Ecclesiastes 3:11 can be bent to mean a great many things, it just won't cut it).

Anyway, if what you say is true, PLEASE PLEASE answer this question for me? PLEASE? Here's the million dollar question!:

[[[ If we are already experiencing our own Heaven & Hell, what happens when we die? ]]]
Bikerman
LOL...this is actually quite funny.
You object to Old Testament quotes when they refute what you are saying, but when you need to 'quote mine' for something that supports your idea then what do we get? Ecclesiastes (Old Testament). ROFLMAO.
Of course, Ecclesiastes is the 'depressive' book of the Old Testament. All is meaningless, nothing matters - that's the general message. It also, of course, has something else to say on the notion that:
StacyGoode wrote:
Once my flesh is beneath the ground my spirit will be released to join with the spirit of God

Specifically, in Ecclesiastes 3:18
Quote:
I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?

and
Quote:
So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

and in 6;12 we get
Quote:
For who knows what is good for a man in life, during the few and meaningless days he passes through like a shadow? Who can tell him what will happen under the sun after he is gone?

And so on....

Ecclesiastes is basically a man looking back over his life and finding no 'eternal meaning'. Live wisely and enjoy life, is the message, for the rest of it is meaningless....

Wiki has an interesting article on this book (Ecclesiastes)
wiki wrote:
A great portion of the book concerns itself with death. The author emphatically affirms human mortality, going so far as to say that the dead in sheol know nothing. He mentions no resurrection, which, some may argue, is to be expected seeing that it predates this theology. (This view is in dispute, however, as Solomon's father, David, expressed a belief in the afterlife upon the death of Solomon's older brother, claiming with certainty that he would see his deceased son again.) In fact, it is the lack of consequences after death that lead the author to advocate enjoying life while you can. Martin Luther and certain other Christian leaders have quoted these verses in defense of the doctrine that the soul sleeps between death and resurrection[citation needed]. A meaningless life followed by oblivion is consistent with the purport of much (though not all) of the rest of the Tanakh as to the state of the dead (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Genesis 3:19; Psalms 6:5; 115:17). This view that death is oblivion stands in contrast to later descriptions of the afterlife, such as gehenna, the bosom of Abraham, and the resurrection of the dead.
stacygoode
Chris, I have no objections to using the OT, but heaven (the resting place of the righteous) was not opened to us until Jesus came to open it. He signifigantly changed things, but not what God created.

Solomon was a wealthy king. full of worldly wisdom and he had more earthly pleasure than anyone I've ever known, but when his road came to an end, he tallied up the value of his life and found that it was all dust in the wind. He had neglected the only two important things in life for his entire life and Ecclesiastic are the lammentations of an old man who wanted to tell people not to live for the things he had lived for, rather to live for God. Only by living for God will we ever know any measure of real joy and peace. He warns the young man to follow your heart and enjoy life, but for everything you do, God will judge you. Banish anxiety, youth is meaningless, FEAR God in everything you do, because you cannot hide from your creator. so life is only "meaningless" without God. I find it inspiring.


Quote:
Specifically, in Ecclesiastes 3:18Quote:
I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?



solomon predated the theology of heaven and hell.. The word ge(h)enna or hell is only mentioned in the NT, And never in conjunction with the word "eternity." There is an eternal fire meant for Satan. also, all but once it is "somewhere" for the body.. better to enter life with one hand then with both hands to be thrown into hell, a place of guilt and condemnation. I've been through guilt and condemnation. I've been through fear and hopelessness. I believe this is hell. (Mt 5:22;29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; Mk9:43-45; Js 3:5,6 then there is the exception, Lk 12:5 puts the soul in hell, not the body)

(the following can be found in Lk 16:23, 2pet 2:4, Rev 20:11-15)Then there is Hades/tartarus, the place where the dead await judgment, for some this is a place confinement and the Bible is clear that Hades gives up the dead before being thrown into the lake of fire with Satan and death. Here I have an issue, because if a name is not found in the book of life, that person is also thrown into the lake of fire.... Entrance into the Book of life is another day, as I have to get going right now.

God bless, have a good day!

Stacy
Bikerman
stacygoode wrote:
Solomon was a wealthy king...
Hmm but no serious bible scholars think that Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes. It was probably written about 250BCE by someone in the Temple of Jerusalem...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastes
Quote:
Solomon predated the theology of heaven and hell.. The word ge(h)enna or hell is only mentioned in the NT, And never in conjunction with the word "eternity."
Well of course Gehenna is not mentioned in the OT - Gehenna was a valley outside Jerusalem where rubbish was burned. It is used in the NT symbolically as a reference to Hell. In Old Testament times the valley was known as 'Hinnom Valley' and you will see references to it in ;Joshua 15:8, Joshua 18:16, 2nd Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 2nd Chronicles 33:6,Nehemiah 11:30, Jeremiah 7:31~32, Jeremiah 19:2, Jeremiah 19:6, Jeremiah 32:35. In the OT Hinnom is not used as a metaphor for hell. To the best of my knowledge most Jews do not believe in an eternal hell of damnation - that is a Christian belief. Jews believe that Sheol/Hades is the place of the dead where everyone goes. The concept of an afterlife only really comes after the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem - when we get referrences to GeHinnom which later (in the NT) becomes Gehenna. In the Jewish tradition this is a place of atonement where the spirit is purified for a period (12 months is the norm I believe) after which it moves on to Olam ha-Ba - the resurrection in the Garden of Eden.*

In the NT hell (gehenna) is referred to as eternal in Mark 9:43 (NIV) and Mark 9:45 (KJV)

*I am speaking here about Jewish beliefs without full knowledge so I would welcome any correction by those who know more about this.
stacygoode
Agreed that it is not certain that Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes, the assumption is made based on statements such as, 1:12 - "I, the Teacher, was king." But elsewhere negated by a disrespect for rulers. However, the theme of the book, life without God is meaningless, is not changed by authorship or date. Neither are the words, "God set eternity in the hearts of men."

Mark 9:43,45 - some manuscripts say - "hell, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" just as it does in Mark 9:48. And even as the common interpretation "where the fire never dies," it is not implied that the body entering said fire is bound there for eternity. How could it be, when the body only lasts for a number of years. As a human being, I understand this already. I know what it's like to be unquenchable and unsatisfiable. It happens when I long for illusions, which can be boiled down to: anything but God. Everything that passes away is not meant for the eternal life, such as ours, and we will never find peace in such things. Mark 9:49 goes on to say, "Everyone will be salted with fire." To me this is a statement that everyone will know this fire of hell, this is for purification.

I would like to point something out in general. Jesus didn't mean to leave us with all the answers. Jesus answered in the form of questions all the time. He asked us to look with in and to God for answers. What use is there in knowing everything in the world if you do not know your maker? What will a piece of information do for anyone if he doesn't know where to find comfort, peace and salvation? It is not found in religion, but in a working relationship with God. God answers me when I call, that is what Jesus came for. To bridge the divide God and his prodigal children.

If one never found peace in their heart, then they never found peace in eternity, for God placed eternity in our hearts. Their memories and the memories of them will mercifully cease to be. Ps 37:20 - "the wicked will perish. the Lords enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish-vanish like smoke." I am sure that this means the wicked way or the ways of the wicked, because if every wicked person were to perish, based on what the Bible refers to as wicked, there would be noone left.. adulterers, liars, sinners of every type... This is the grace of God and the purpose of Jesus. We will be wiped clean, and our sins remembered no more.

As for the Book of Life, this is a book filled with what God will allow to be remembered after Satan is cast into the lake of fire - Ex 32:32 "Please forgive their sin, but if not then blot me out of the book you have written." Moses was not saying "throw me into eternal suffering," he was saying "don't remember me if I am not worthy or pure." Also Dt 29:20 "and the Lord will blot his name out from under heaven." ; Malichi 3:16 "a scroll of remebrance was written in his (God's) presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored His name." That is to say, when there is finally peace on the new Earth, and we are with God, we will not remember the wickedness that once prevailed. If we did, could we really be at peace?

God bless you!

Stacy
HalfBloodPrince
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
Anyway, if what you say is true, PLEASE PLEASE answer this question for me? PLEASE? Here's the million dollar question!:

[[[ If we are already experiencing our own Heaven & Hell, what happens when we die? ]]]

PLEEEEEEEEEASE?
stacygoode
I believe, that as part of the body of Christ, I will go on to live in the hearts of those who accept Christ in their hearts. As non believers other go to Hades, the realm of the dead... I believe this is earth as we know it. the dominion of Satan, for satan is the prince of this world, and the ruler of the air (for now). Later, every knee will bow, and I believe that includes every knee, and the names we have each held will be called into judgment and either forgotten or remembered based on their works. The bible, I'm afraid, isn't clear. But I know I'll be looking for Jesus when I'm done here. I'll be looking for my maker.

I'll come back and add biblical refrences for all that tomorrow, to at least show you my train of thought. Gotta run.

Stacy
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