At least 12 Turkish soldiers have been killed following an ambush by Kurdish rebels near the Iraqi border - with 32 rebels also killed, officials say.
The PKK guerrilla group said it had also taken "several" soldiers hostage.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has recalled security officials to Ankara for a crisis meeting.
Correspondents say the attacks will increase the pressure on the government to launch raids into Iraq, after it was given clearance to do so by parliament.
On Wednesday, MPs voted overwhelmingly in support of a motion to allow the military to launch offensives across the border, against rebels based in the remote, mountainous north of Iraq.
It followed an escalation of raids by the PKK - the Kurdistan Workers' Party - as part of its armed campaign for Kurdish autonomy.
Recent attacks blamed on the group have left more than 30 Turkish soldiers and civilians dead.
Iraq has urged Turkey not to strike across the border.
Iraqi President Jalal Talabani, himself a Kurd, called on the PKK rebels to lay down their arms.
"But if they insist on continuing to fight, they should leave Iraqi Kurdistan and not create problems here," he said.
Iraq's parliament passed a motion condemning Turkey's threat of force, but also called for the PKK to leave Iraq.
Passengers wounded
In the latest attack shortly after midnight, a large group of PKK rebels crossed the border from Iraq and staged their assault near the village of Daglica in Hakkari province, the Turkish military said.
The army said it sent reinforcements and helicopters to the area, and launched retaliatory attacks in which 32 guerrillas were killed.
It did not comment on reports that some of its soldiers had been captured by the rebels.
PKK sources confirmed the fighting, and claimed more troops were killed than the official figure of 12.
"There were clashes with the Turkish troops late last night in which we have killed at least 16 soldiers and wounded 20. We also captured several," Reuters quoted an unnamed rebel source as saying.
The Turkish army did not confirm that any soldiers had been captured.
Not far from the scene of the fighting, a minibus was later caught in a landmine explosion, also blamed on the PKK, that injured 10 civilians, the state news agency Anatolia said.
The prime minister said: "We are very angry."
But he said he was "resolved to deal with these matters in a cool-headed manner".
Increased pressure
About 3,000 PKK fighters are believed to be based in northern Iraq near the Turkish border, says the BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul.
There have been regular clashes in the area since earlier in the year, but the latest attack was one of the deadliest for some time.
The clashes will increase pressure on the government from the public and the military for a tough response, our correspondent says.
The United States, Turkey's Nato ally, has called for restraint, fearing that any incursions would destabilise Iraq's most peaceful area - the autonomous Kurdish region in the north.
The regional government there says any intervention would be "illegal". It has denied providing the PKK with any help.
More than 30,000 people have been killed since the PKK began fighting for greater autonomy for the largely-Kurdish south-eastern Turkey since 1984.
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7055004.stm)
I am sad that the event has started.....
what do you think?
Peace... no war...
hmm... America invaded Iraq to try to end terrorism in the region (or so she said)
Turkey is targetting the terrorists (they say) north of Iraq.
I dont understand why America is therefore against Turkey's assault, or to say it is wrong for Turkey to do so as America did the exact same (or worse).
| ThePolemistis wrote: |
hmm... America invaded Iraq to try to end terrorism in the region (or so she said)
Turkey is targetting the terrorists (they say) north of Iraq.
I dont understand why America is therefore against Turkey's assault, or to say it is wrong for Turkey to do so as America did the exact same (or worse). |
Simply because it could further destabilize Iraq and fracture an already fragile government. A Turkish incursion ("invasion" would be an improper term) could hamper U.S. political efforts in Iraq and further complicate matters. Furthermore, it could damage U.S./Turkish relations as the U.S. tries to stabilize a country and Turkey acts in a manner that can only destabilize it.
The United States and Turkey enjoy a close friendship, with the U.S. arguably being Turkey's closest ally in the NATO alliance. I don't see this problem devolving too far.
Respectfully,
Ma matter of fact nobody takes care of turkiye-usa relationship in turkiye at this time
it can not be worse than this.
usa popularity in turkiye is in the lowest level.
| palavra wrote: |
a matter of fact nobody takes care of turkiye-usa relationship in turkiye at this time
it can not be worse than this.
usa popularity in turkiye is in the lowest level. |
That's a shame. Nevertheless, of all the NATO members, the United States is Turkey's best advocate (despite some recent idiocy in the U.S. congress with the Armenian genocide bill).
Respectfully,
M | Moonspider wrote: |
| palavra wrote: | a matter of fact nobody takes care of turkiye-usa relationship in turkiye at this time
it can not be worse than this.
usa popularity in turkiye is in the lowest level. |
That's a shame. Nevertheless, of all the NATO members, the United States is Turkey's best advocate (despite some recent idiocy in the U.S. congress with the Armenian genocide bill).
Respectfully,
M |
"palavra" is right. U.S.A has never been a friend neither an ally to "Türkiye". "C.Rice" is never talking clear about helping our defence raids.. Well,Türkiye DOES NOT need any of her advices (get some knowledge about our history). Being a member of NATO does not matter any trustworthiness between Türkiye and USA. Being a "real" friend does not mean supplying weapons to our enemies !!The EU should insist that Turkey allow it's Kurdish SE section to leave -- NO Turkish Empire as part of the EU.
Turks should know more about their own history, and that of the Ottoman Empire, and the genocide of Armenians carried out.
I read that most of the actual killers of Armenians were Kurds, under Turkish direction.
Belgium should split into Wallonia and Flanders.
Czecho-Slovakia is already gone.
Instead of Yugoslavia, there is Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro ... and soon, Kosovo.
The Turkish empire, and their current oppression of Kurdish Turks, must end.
And Turkey, after peacefully letting the Kurds go, should be welcomed into the EU as their gov't accepts EU norms for what a gov't does.
People can be friends. Nations are not, although specific gov't administrations might be.
| loserk wrote: |
| Moonspider wrote: | | palavra wrote: | a matter of fact nobody takes care of turkiye-usa relationship in turkiye at this time
it can not be worse than this.
usa popularity in turkiye is in the lowest level. |
That's a shame. Nevertheless, of all the NATO members, the United States is Turkey's best advocate (despite some recent idiocy in the U.S. congress with the Armenian genocide bill).
Respectfully,
M |
"palavra" is right. U.S.A has never been a friend neither an ally to "Türkiye". |
Really? I know relations have cooled over recent years, however your statement above is grossly incorrect. I don't normally refer people to the Wikipedia. However I did provide a link below to an article on the topic as it contained all of the historical points I planned to make in rebuttal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey-United_States_relations
Respectfully,
M | TomGrey wrote: |
| Turks should know more about their own history, and that of the Ottoman Empire, and the genocide of Armenians carried out. |
Nobody could know our history more than us. Which genocide are you talking about? Any genocide was made by Turks all among Turkish history? Then tell me, how can it be true that there were more than 1.5 millions of Armenians? Let's compare the "slanders" and the "truths":
Slander 1-) Turkiye tried to invade Armenia and get more land.
Truth 1-)There was no Armenia when Turks first came to Anadolu.If there is no Armenia,there can not be any invasion.
Slander 2-)Turks systematically murdered Armenians during the 1877-78 war.
Truth 2-) Turks defended themselves and rejected the systematically made rebellions of Armenians.
Slander 3-) Turks caused the genocide from the year 1915.
Truth 3-) When Armenians were immigratted to their motherland,all the precautions for Armenians' security were taken by Turkish government. So,how can you say "there was a genocide"?
Slander 4-) Over 1.5 millions of Armenians were murdered (which you call "genocide").
Truth 4-) If you investigate historical documents, you can see that the TOTAL population of Armenia DID NOT reach to 1.5 millions.The real population was about 1.1-1.2 millions. Can you please tell me, how can 1.5 millions of people could be dead among all 1.2 millions of total population?
Well, I think "you" should know more about our history. Pehh...
| loserk wrote: |
| "palavra" is right. U.S.A has never been a friend neither an ally to "Türkiye". |
| Moonspider wrote: |
Really? I know relations have cooled over recent years, however your statement above is grossly incorrect. I don't normally refer people to the Wikipedia. However I did provide a link below to an article on the topic as it contained all of the historical points I planned to make in rebuttal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey-United_States_relations
Respectfully,
M |
Well you think,according to Wiki,America and Turkiye has been friends huh? Then,could you please explain me how do these PKK bastards obtain M16's made in America?
If these PKK bastards are only simple "rebels",then how can they obtain bazookas? | loserk wrote: |
Well you think,according to Wiki,America and Turkiye has been friends huh? Then,could you please explain me how do these PKK bastards obtain M16's made in America?
|
Just because it is an M-16 doesn't mean that the United States provided it. (Besides, the United Statea no longer manufactures M-16s. We import them from Europe.) Likewise I'm sure every rebel in the world using an AK-47 didn't receive it from Russia.
| loserk wrote: |
| If these PKK bastards are only simple "rebels",then how can they obtain bazookas? |
The same way any other terrorist organization, para-military, rebel, or sub-national military entity does. The arms trade is rampant and it does not require governments.
Respectfully,
MActually, if I recall correctly, kurds were a major aid during the first stages of the war; that's where they may have gotten their M16s. Much like the mujahideen during Reagan's sultanate, they were equipped properly to serve as fairly good cannon fodder. The problem is, well, that they actually hate turkish people, for some rather fair things and dedicate a sizable portion of their time to screw up people in the border.
I don't see what's wrong here, this time building a wall around the frontier might just not be enough to keep them from raiding turkish soil.
| PMK-Bear wrote: |
Actually, if I recall correctly, kurds were a major aid during the first stages of the war; that's where they may have gotten their M16s. Much like the mujahideen during Reagan's sultanate, they were equipped properly to serve as fairly good cannon fodder. The problem is, well, that they actually hate turkish people, for some rather fair things and dedicate a sizable portion of their time to screw up people in the border.
I don't see what's wrong here, this time building a wall around the frontier might just not be enough to keep them from raiding turkish soil. |
i think you completely confuse kurds and pkk (terrorists)
nobody hates each other,adn pkk is only a small,marjinal ,communist(marksist-leninist) group.(a few thousands terrorists)
there are more than 10 million kurdish people live in turkiye and only 2 millions kurd live in iraq.
there are hundred of thousands of mix-marriages between turkish and kurdish people.
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=126151
| Quote: |
Residents of Hakkari, where 12 Turkish soldiers were recently lost to the terrorist violence of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), have commemorated the martyrs and staged a protest against terrorism.
Approximately 15,000 citizens gathered at a Hakkari stadium almost fully covered by the red and white of the Turkish flag. They chanted “Martyrs don't die,” “Turks and Kurds are brothers,” “We're all soldiers; we can overcome the PKK,” and “PKK, keep your hands off Hakkari.” Combatant Veterans of Hakkari President Reşit Tatlı and Turkey Veterans, Martyrs, Widows and Orphans Association Hakkari President İbrahim Adıyaman made speeches at the event.
“Those who want us to clash won’t be able to reach their goal. We’ve been living on this soil for more than a thousand years. They can’t destroy that. Turk and Kurd, we’re all against terrorism. We have to show that we can live together as we did in the past. We lost 312 of our soldiers to terrorism in Hakkari and have 436 veterans,” Adıyaman said. At the stadium residents sang the national anthem and observed a moment of silence. Later they walked to the city square, where they prayed for the martyrs.
|
| palavra wrote: |
i think you completely confuse kurds and pkk (terrorists)
|
And I think that you're missing the point completely. The PKK is as kurdish as it gets (PKK stands for Kurdistan Workers Party); the problem is that they are a radical group. It's like arguing that the taleban aren't mostly afghans.
| palavra wrote: |
nobody hates each other,adn pkk is only a small,marjinal ,communist(marksist-leninist) group.(a few thousands terrorists)
(...)
|
Look, my english isn't exactly the best ever read, but you should try to improve yours. I can't make much sense from your sayings. The PKK lives in Iraq, right? And it does sit specifically on the kurdish warlords piece of Iraq, right? And they are kurdish, right? Then what are you talking about? Can you disprove what I say about the guns? Or the military training? | PMK-Bear wrote: |
| palavra wrote: |
i think you completely confuse kurds and pkk (terrorists)
|
And I think that you're missing the point completely. The PKK is as kurdish as it gets (PKK stands for Kurdistan Workers Party); the problem is that they are a radical group. It's like arguing that the taleban aren't mostly afghans.
| palavra wrote: |
nobody hates each other,adn pkk is only a small,marjinal ,communist(marksist-leninist) group.(a few thousands terrorists)
(...)
|
|
As i understand ,you say turkish and kurdish peole hate each other.
and i say , this is not true. the main problem is between turkey and pkk.
pkk is a marksist-leninist communist,terrorist group. they have nothing to do with kurdish people.In turkey some marjinal turkish communists also support pkk. And in the last election in turkey; kurds mostly supported the government party (AK PARTY) who strictly oppose to pkk.
they have camps in nothern iraq but mostly they are from turkey.they are not iraqi kurds.
there are lots of differences between iraqi kurds and turkish kurds and iranian kurds and syrian kurds .their languages even are not exactly same.
you are right taleban mostly afghans but afghanistan is their country.pkk is turkey oriented but they live in iraq.
Turkey is angry with iraq and usa because they do not want to help turkey about pkk problem.
turkey wants to attack to pkk camps in iraq but usa does not want this attack.
usa gave some weapons to iraqi kurds (Talabani and barzani )but tuday pkk uses the same weapons against to us.
and now either usa and iraq should stop pkk terrorist attacts from iraq to turkey or they sould let us to do this ourselves.
| Quote: |
In the title, I refer to the Kurds in Turkey, who constitute the largest part of the Kurdish population dispersed through Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria.
The Kurds are the autochthonous people of the region. But, just like other autochthonous peoples, the Kurds also have rich ethnic diversity. Language is one important factor that gives the Kurds a separate ethnic entity. More importantly, the Kurds in Turkey, Syria and Iraq have a 90-year-long history in these territories, whereas the Kurds in Iran date back much further.
This is the basic feature of the nation states era: when you draw even the smallest river separating two villages as the borderline of two countries, the members of the same kin on the two sides of the border begin leading different lives. The individuals adopt a life consistent with the capital of the country they belong to rather than the lifestyle of their relatives on the other side. The city of Edirne seems closer in regards to culture than a relatively near village to a resident in Hakkari. A period of 90 years is enough for the emergence of different identities and personalities between the relatives in two different countries.
It is apparent that the borders drawn in accordance with the Sykes-Picot Treaty have the potential to cause serious problems. If the city of Mosul remained within the territory of Turkey at Lausanne, the Kurds would have lived the 90-year period together. History was experienced differently; the Kurds in the north of Iraq were governed under the policies and rules of Baghdad, whereas the Kurds in southeastern Turkey were ruled by the policies developed by Ankara.
More than half of the Kurds in Turkey live outside the southeastern region, the least developed part of Turkey. People migrate west because of natural dynamics. Even those who did not immigrate are integrated with the western part of Turkey.
The 20 million members of the Kurdish ethnic group constitute the main axis of the developments in the region. The attacks by the terrorist Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) on Turkish security forces opened the way to armed conflict. Even though the problem seems to be ethnic, there is no direct link between the terrorism issue in Turkey and the Kurdish ethnic population. This is so because of the history that makes the Kurds in Turkey different from the others.
Turkey’s Kurds
The Republic of Turkey that replaced the Ottoman Empire considered the lessons drawn from past events. It resorted to transforming into a nation state. None of the ethnic groups left from the empire era objected to this project. However, it was difficult to assimilate the Kurds and to ensure their proper integration with the nation. On the other hand, the tribal customs within the Kurds also prevented emergence of ethnic nationalism. The Kurdish population was integrated with the central administration by means of the tribal leaders.
It is evident that the tribal entities belong to the era before the age of nations. Those who proposed a Turkish nation state had two alternatives to prevent the outbreak of a Kurdish problem. They would either preserve these pre-national entities or modernize the Kurdish population to ensure their integration with the rest of the population. The second option was chosen -- the Kurdish population as well as the others was modernized.
The imprints of the efforts for modernization can be found in the differences between the Kurds north of the border and the Kurds south of it. The Kurds experienced a process of individualization backed by migration to the West. The tribal customs are still influential among Turkey’s Kurds, but the political processes are never directly and solely determined by the tribal hierarchy. There is a strong belief among the people that they will be able to survive without being dependent on the tribal structure. While the Kurds in northern Iraq carry out a struggle based on their attachment to tribal traditions, the Kurds in Turkey relied on a universal language in their attempts to broaden the sphere of cultural and fundamental rights.
The fact that the Democratic Society Party (DTP), the Kurdish party with seats in Parliament, is secular may be taken as the best example of this difference.
Nationalization process
The Kurdish population in four different countries developed an interest in nationalization following Iraq’s occupation by the US. The emergence of an almost independent entity in northern Iraq was taken by the other Kurds as a promising example for Pan-Kurdism. However, there are serious irresolvable problems stemming from the dramatic differences between the Kurds of the four different countries. The Kurds in Turkey are now independent of tribal ties thanks to the individualization process. They also seem to be integrated with the rest of Turkey. The tribal entities inherently obscure nationalization. The sustainability of the government in northern Iraq strongly depends on the existence of the tribal structure. However, nationalization is only possible when the tribal structures are eliminated. So, what would be the best choice for the Kurds in Turkey?
Some of the soldiers who died during the PKK attacks are of Kurdish origin. There are families in which one of the sons joined the PKK whereas another is enlisted in the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK).
The ongoing military operation crisis makes the distinction between the Kurds in different regions more visible, also presenting evidence on the state of the nationalization process. Turkey asks Massoud Barzani to hand over the PKK leaders or stop their activities in northern Iraq. In response, Barzani is eager to protect the interests of the local administration and also tries to present himself as the leader of the Pan-Kurdish movement. However, Barzani is a tribal leader and the PKK’s founder and leader, Abdullah Öcalan, is the son of an ordinary Kurdish family.
There have been many conflicts between the Kurdistan Democratic Party units led by Barzani and the PKK militants. Barzani is actually uneasy with the presence of the PKK, but he also refrains from labeling the PKK a terrorist organization to protect his public image.
Attempting to create a nation state in a century where nation states are collapsing may seem to be a political project. Just like the delayed nationalism, this nationalization project has a lot of problems. On the other hand, the long shared history attaches the members of the new nation to the soil where they live rather than this nation.
The link between the cross-border operation crisis escalated by Turkey and the Kurdish ethnicity is not so strong. Turkey’s Kurds still seek the solution inside Turkey.
|
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazarDetay.do?haberno=126189It is all politics dude.... No one / nothing is good in this world. We just have to identify and differentiate between the least bad and worst bad.
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