Don't get me wrong, thats the topic on youtube.
just watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE
Note: 20% of Americans can't find their own country in a world map. loll... although ive seen it before... it always makes me laugh.
Another great one is Are British stupid?
check it out here.
However, its not as bad as the American one. The British do get asked tougher questions 
lol.American peoples is humorous and not stupid,I think so.
Haha well, I don't think americans are more stupid than the general person, but I do however think that they dont care about the world outside of the US as much as we do here in Europe for instance. I have a lot of american friends and Ive come to the same conclusion with them. I dont know why this is really, but I can speak for myself and say that I kinda take a little pride in knowin as much as I can about the world, where countries are and a little about them, to me that stuff is important.
I saw a pool where 10% of american people believed they have a common border whith IRAK .....
without comment 
Given some of the spelling errors in this thread it would appear that it's not only Americans that are stupid (that's a joke by the way).
Ah yes..that was from CNNNN - chances are that you've heard of the people behind that video clip since they went on to produce the Chaser's War on Everything - they were the ones that breached APEC security in a faux-Canadian limousine. I understand that caused quite a stir on various American news programs..
Here's the actual footage from the show - quite compelling, hilarious, viewing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAPLpHyBrlg Americans have the highest rate of Church attendence, and the lowest rate of passport ownership of any Western country- now there's food for thought... | fourx wrote: |
| Americans have the highest rate of Church attendence, and the lowest rate of passport ownership of any Western country- now there's food for thought... |
I don't see the correlation.
However, I would see the correlation between land mass and passport ownership among western countries. Texas alone is larger than most Western countries. Furthermore, the U.S. shares contiguous borders with only two countries. And up until October 1, 2007, no passport was required to enter either from the United States.
Respectfully,
MI think the reality of those videos is that they ask hundreds of people the same questions - then throw away the sensible, accurate responses to leave a false impression.
I don't think that Americans are significantly more or less stupid than any other nation.
I agree,
you'll find people who don't know so much in any nation, there's just more of them in a country of 300 million. As far as their general world knowledge goes, America has states even bigger and more populous than my own country, so I'm not surprised people know more about neighbouring states than the rest of the world!
People are people everywhere, they're just labelled from where they were born.
...the film did make me laugh though, and also the British one 
Yes, there are stupid people everywhere, but can't tell of a country that 20% of it's population doesn't know where they are on the map.
My favourites:
"Kentucky Fried Chiken right?" and "Cofee in what?"
Hahaha
And you guys don't think people give stupid answers on purpose, when I was a kid in high school, we would get surveys, some kids would just put down all kinds of crap just to mess the surveys up. I am sure people do it on these surveys too.
| Moonspider wrote: |
| fourx wrote: | | Americans have the highest rate of Church attendence, and the lowest rate of passport ownership of any Western country- now there's food for thought... |
I don't see the correlation.
However, I would see the correlation between land mass and passport ownership among western countries. Texas alone is larger than most Western countries. Furthermore, the U.S. shares contiguous borders with only two countries. And up until October 1, 2007, no passport was required to enter either from the United States.
Respectfully,
M |
This is very true.
I'm not sure Americans really are so much dumber than everyone else, but they're undoubtedly more ignorant.Wow. I seriously hope to think that they did try to leave a bad impression about America. I know none of us are really that stupid where I live. It's a little embarrassing to see those things that make fun of us.
We really aren't that stupid. Sure, some of us are pretty dumb, but that's a very small minority. And with today's new education, that percentage of stupidity will surely decrease. I remember that all though high school I was made sure of that I could use a map and find key places on it.
Everyone's ignorant. It's the people who are more ignorant than others that appear "stupid"...
God bless 
,
Pampoon The question is stupid!
There's no correlation between stupidity and nationality. I've never been to America but traveled extensively around Europe. The man in the street is ignorant (and probably not very bright 
) anywhere.
Indeed it's possible that Americans as a whole are more self-centered and ignorant than other nations. This is because of their education system. But those video clips on YouTube are intended to make fun of and bash the Americans.
You can make such a "funny video" in a couple of hours anywhere in the world. People find these videos entertaining because they see other people even more "confused" than them. Perhaps a little naive because they live in such a vast country they don't travel abroad much so they dont see other cultures and people.
So they tend to believe only what is told them by their own peers.
| otiscom wrote: |
So they tend to believe only what is told them by their own peers.
|
I think we're all guilty of that, to some extent.
More importantly, I think, there has been a tendency for people to believe what they are told by their elected (or un-elected) governments, news services etc. This has led to a situation where governments do as they want - and not what their election promises stated they would do.
In the UK people are beginning to realise that government officials are rarely trustworthy - especially over matters of international policy and security. Hopefully the same is happening in the US although the size of that country does, undoubtedly, slow things down as news coverage tends to be more focussed on the US - international news content being reduced and, to some extent, filtered to gain viewers/readership.
Sadly "all quiet in the Middle East" doesn't generate interest whereas ""Iraq sponsors Al-Qaeda. Iran wants to nuke Israel" certainly does.
The "Americans are stupid" videos are simply manipulative nonsense. I think it's more accurate to say that, as with so many other countries, "Americans are misled."Based on the Video, I don't think americans are that stupid. They just didn't care about what's with the outside world. All they've cared is their greatness. They just think they're the best, all others were just merely a puppet that do whatever they did.
They're so powerful that they can have an authority to WAR IRAQ for an unproven reason. They can even let that country be wiped out if they wanted to. UN can't surely block them, They're the best. 
Well at least someone realizes it, finally. | coolclay wrote: |
Well at least someone realizes it, finally. |
Yeah, even though 1 out of 5 of them can't find their own country on the map. if i see the family bush i would say yes but im not so prejudgemental to generalize a whole part of the world and say all of em are .. .. lol 
well need i say anything?i think it speak for itself.either that or americans are really self centered (no doubt about tht) and they are just plain imbeciles who just can't seem to be able to see the world living in peace.
Ignorant, yes, but stupid ... I don't think so.
The problem is that the sample source isn't all too great. And to be honest, the reason people don't know what's going on, where their country is, etc. is because they honestly do not care.
Apathy is the death of democracy, and it's coming at us like a train.
As others have said, its just a joke, whether it be Americans or Brits, YouTube or Leno. It has no statistical meaning and therefore no real relevance except for its value as humor.
Respectfully
M Its a TV show. Besides I am not sure if anyone took it seriously.
It's by the Chaser..and Australian comedy group with a show on the national public broadcaster (the Australian Broadcasting Corporation). National public broadcaster means no ads, which means editorial independence, which means they can do almost whatever they like.
Like I said above, they were the group that got all the attention because of their APEC motorcade stunt.
I don't think all Americans are stupid at all, but I think what most people find interesting about this video is that even in the 'biggest and best' country in terms of wealth, military power, etc. there are people who seem to know very little about what lies outside their own backyard. There are chav/bogan/whatever-you-call-them-in-your-country contingents everywhere.
And you'll probably find that most people have no problem with Americans anyway..polls taken (at least in Australia) show that we don't dislike Americans, it's the government, foreign policy, and in particular Bush.
The chaser are legends !!! Funny as hell, not because of this "stupid American clip, but you guys should really check out their other clip !!
I love the responses to, "How many sides in a triangle?"
Honestly though, I can't help but think they "prime" the inteviewees with a series of confusing questions beforehand. How could they find that many people who are that stupid?
[quote="Tim Grahamand ....""Australian comedy group with a show on the national public broadcaster (the Australian Broadcasting Corporation). National public broadcaster means no ads, which means editorial independence.[/quote]
Indepenendence?
You have to be joking.... The MEAA, which pulls the strings on almost every aspect of the ABC is two kilometers to the left of Stalin's left tit..and at least 70% of the journalists, presenters, producers and commentators ( not at all surprising from an organisation formed by Sir Charles Moses 
) are Jewish, of course...which makes for a very strange slant indeed on any story involveing Zionism ( or Pratt and Visy, or Adler, or Vizard, or ...etc, etc).
I'm an avid ABC consumer, radio and TV, but unbiased it ain't. Editorial independence and bias are somewhat seperate things, despite Howard's best efforts (Albrechtsen, Windschuttle, et al). The MEAA is toothless, and what makes you think they're Jewish at all? As for the Zionist tilt thing - the place is monitored to within an inch of it's life.. In addition to the fun, I mean bias, police, you of course have senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells and her band of merry supporters in the Liberal Party room neurotically taking note of every perceived twitch to the left..
lol, all the countries are in australia and they really didn't remark? omg
Tim...Romona Koval, Norman Swan, Louise Adler, Caroline Baum, Robin Williams, Elle McFeast ( who's real name I can't remember), Andrew Denton....I could go on, but the Radio National death-rays ( from the Left speaker, of course) appear to have sparked a Senior Moment. 
I'm not knocking talent- it's just that a few Hussains and the like would be nice, to balance thigs up.
Pass me that tinfoil helmet.... Many people here look at americans as simply stupid, and some very fat people. I have heard lots of amazing storys from the US, that are so stupid it is hard to believe. I know many of you are... not that stupid, but but. I do not really know.
You do have to wonder about a country that reelected George Bush, though. 90% of the rest of the world saw that he was an idiot before he was elected, but it took most Americans until his second term, and some still think he's smart now!
sayin that having the opinion that George Bush is not an idiot is being stupid, is just clarifying to everyone else that you yourself are really stupid. but you did that really good though! well done!
| ThePolemistis wrote: |
loll... although ive seen it before... it always makes me laugh.
Another great one is Are British stupid?
check it out here.
However, its not as bad as the American one. The British do get asked tougher questions |
Nice video's, I liked both of them 
This will definately proof that however the global average is very low... Except for the Dutch people . | LimpFish wrote: |
| sayin that having the opinion that George Bush is not an idiot is being stupid, is just clarifying to everyone else that you yourself are really stupid. |
Ce ne pas?
Not everything to have come out of Bush and Co. is stupid, just the majority of it. For instance, when you actually think about it the known knowns/unknown knowns/unknown unknowns/known unkowns is quite profound.Hate to break it to people, but there are more important issues on the table in front of us outside of "determining" which nation is the dumbest or which nation doesn't know geography. We have a world that is being destroyed because of EVERYONE'S stupidity, ignorance, and naive feelings. The WORLD is on the brink of a war between numerous nations. To sit there and insult a nation based on their geography knowledge when it was taken in their first year of high school is sheer stupidity and manipulation. I would think people would be smart enough to realize that. I think it's funny that people from other nations sit there and act superior when 60% of their general population doesn't believe evolution exists and 40% doesn't believe global warming is an issue. Who's dumb? Everyone. Can point all the fingers you want, but we're all in the same boat. Knowing where your country is on a map isn't gonna stop the polar caps from melting or stop the unbelievable mass extinction of all species that has been going on for years. Everyone is dumb, simply because nobody has their priorities straight...
I don't think that Americans are more or less stupid than any other nation.In each world region peope makin jokes about neigbord nations.
The french/germans/ luxembourgers/ dutch slag the Belgians
belgians slag the Irish
The irish people slag each the USA
And the usa slags canada
Which slags the usa, thus ending my lovely little circle of insultion.
It's all personal opinion really, no way to discuss it properly
| bogger wrote: |
The french/germans/ luxembourgers/ dutch slag the Belgians
belgians slag the Irish
The irish people slag each the USA
And the usa slags canada
Which slags the usa, thus ending my lovely little circle of insultion.
It's all personal opinion really, no way to discuss it properly |
Good point, we should slag everyone and make no exception just not to discriminate a certain group Honestly, I don't think it's only Americans who are stupid but a lot of people around the world. Actually, I think that if you asked people to point their country on a map, not much would be able to answer, and even less if it was another country than their own.
So really I think it's a problem with the "general culture" of people, which is really low nowadays.
I sincerely hope that most people in Australia can point to their countrie on a map..
| Quote: |
| Hate to break it to people, but there are more important issues on the table in front of us outside of "determining" which nation is the dumbest or which nation doesn't know geography. We have a world that is being destroyed because of EVERYONE'S stupidity, ignorance, and naive feelings. The WORLD is on the brink of a war between numerous nations. To sit there and insult a nation based on their geography knowledge when it was taken in their first year of high school is sheer stupidity and manipulation. I would think people would be smart enough to realize that. I think it's funny that people from other nations sit there and act superior when 60% of their general population doesn't believe evolution exists and 40% doesn't believe global warming is an issue. Who's dumb? Everyone. Can point all the fingers you want, but we're all in the same boat. Knowing where your country is on a map isn't gonna stop the polar caps from melting or stop the unbelievable mass extinction of all species that has been going on for years. Everyone is dumb, simply because nobody has their priorities straight... |
Who started the Iraq war?
| Soltair wrote: |
Honestly, I don't think it's only Americans who are stupid but a lot of people around the world. Actually, I think that if you asked people to point their country on a map, not much would be able to answer, and even less if it was another country than their own.
So really I think it's a problem with the "general culture" of people, which is really low nowadays. |
You see....your problem is that you think everyone is like the USA, if not, they are "barbarians".
In my country, every single person could point his/her own country in a worldmap since they are about 12 years old.[/quote]^As much fun as it would be to prove you wrong on that, we'd have to know what country that is first.
I would doubt some of the claims here, except I've seen similar stupidity. My favorite example was on a game show: The contestant was being offered a large sum of money to be able to answer this question: "What country is to the North of the USA?" The contestant could not answer it! She didn't know! And this is somebody who lives in the USA. She eventually guessed "Mexico". (In case someone reads this and is similarly geographically challenged, the answer is Canada)
Knowing that many (if not most) people are utter morons can be very useful, and explains many things, though.
| polis wrote: |
| Quote: | | Hate to break it to people, but there are more important issues on the table in front of us outside of "determining" which nation is the dumbest or which nation doesn't know geography. We have a world that is being destroyed because of EVERYONE'S stupidity, ignorance, and naive feelings. The WORLD is on the brink of a war between numerous nations. To sit there and insult a nation based on their geography knowledge when it was taken in their first year of high school is sheer stupidity and manipulation. I would think people would be smart enough to realize that. I think it's funny that people from other nations sit there and act superior when 60% of their general population doesn't believe evolution exists and 40% doesn't believe global warming is an issue. Who's dumb? Everyone. Can point all the fingers you want, but we're all in the same boat. Knowing where your country is on a map isn't gonna stop the polar caps from melting or stop the unbelievable mass extinction of all species that has been going on for years. Everyone is dumb, simply because nobody has their priorities straight... |
Who started the Iraq war?
| Soltair wrote: | Honestly, I don't think it's only Americans who are stupid but a lot of people around the world. Actually, I think that if you asked people to point their country on a map, not much would be able to answer, and even less if it was another country than their own.
So really I think it's a problem with the "general culture" of people, which is really low nowadays. |
You see....your problem is that you think everyone is like the USA, if not, they are "barbarians".
In my country, every single person could point his/her own country in a worldmap since they are about 12 years old. |
[/quote]
The Bush Administration started it. If you want to fault them for that, I'll happily join you. Blaming the American public for it is absurd. They were constantly lied to and fed misinformation from the media/government in an attempt to gain support for the war. The country had just been attacked by terrorists (9/11); the government used that as a backdrop to gain support and push forth the idea that we must fight back. Blame the entire country all you want, but there is no present or past superpower/empire in the history of the world that didn't fight less than a few bad wars. If you're too blinded by pride for your country to see that, I don't know what to tell you (no I'm not defending the choice to invade Iraq). And honestly, living seven years in the past is useless. It's not a matter of who started it at this point. The fact of the matter is the world, yes the world, is on the brink of a war. It is not a war between two nations; it is a war between Muslim fundamentalists and the world. They want the entire western world wiped out and their main goal in all of this is to have a caliphate type of government that rules over the entire world...it honestly is not directed specifically at the US. If you think it is, then you need to educated yourself on a jihadist's true mission (it's not to blow everything in site up as is often portrayed). The world is in the war, whether they want to be or not. The world can fix the issue, or they can sit back and point fingers like they're better.
There's also the issue that you're basing 300+ million people on one President's 7 year term. If that's not ignorant and insane logic, I don't know what is. There's a reason the US's universities rank as some of the highest in the world. There's a reason why millions of foreigners come here every year on educational visas to go to college here. There's a reason why a huge amount of the new vaccines/cures/surgeries for every field of health and medicine are developed here. I'm pretty sure it's not cause every American is stupid and doesn't know where their country is.
The point still stands that there are more important issues than where your country is on a map. Again, if you (or anyone) thinks that a lack of geography skills is at the top of any list, the priorities are wrong.
In response to your reply to the other person's post: I don't really understand your path of logic there. It seems you took that one and twisted it completely to fit your argument. For one, the poster is from Canada, so you painting him as a naive American is fairly dumb. For two, he never said the USA was any better than any country. Three, where was the mention of barbarians? Perhaps that's your view? Four, THERE ARE dumb/ignorant people EVERYWHERE...IN EVERY COUNTRY. Making some general, silly statement that every single person in your country could point out their country on a map is a quite terrible argument. I'm pretty sure anybody could find dumb people in any country who have a lack of geographical education. Of course you won't agree, because you seem to be overly proud of your country...and Americans have too much hubris? -.-
| ocalhoun wrote: |
^As much fun as it would be to prove you wrong on that, we'd have to know what country that is first.
I would doubt some of the claims here, except I've seen similar stupidity. My favorite example was on a game show: The contestant was being offered a large sum of money to be able to answer this question: "What country is to the North of the USA?" The contestant could not answer it! She didn't know! And this is somebody who lives in the USA. She eventually guessed "Mexico". (In case someone reads this and is similarly geographically challenged, the answer is Canada)
Knowing that many (if not most) people are utter morons can be very useful, and explains many things, though. |
Assuming you're talking about the show on Fox (Smarter than a 5th grader or whatever): Take into account that that show is completely, 100% scripted/staged. Not a single kid on that show has ever missed a question and the adults are wrong the vast majority of the time. It's a show created to pull in money and nothing more. You can't actually take information away from it and use it logically in an argument...the evidence from that show is completely irrelevant and wrong. | liljp617 wrote: |
The Bush Administration started it. If you want to fault them for that, I'll happily join you. Blaming the American public for it is absurd. They were constantly lied to and fed misinformation from the media/government in an attempt to gain support for the war. The country had just been attacked by terrorists (9/11); the government used that as a backdrop to gain support and push forth the idea that we must fight back. Blame the entire country all you want, but there is no present or past superpower/empire in the history of the world that didn't fight less than a few bad wars. If you're too blinded by pride for your country to see that, I don't know what to tell you (no I'm not defending the choice to invade Iraq). And honestly, living seven years in the past is useless. It's not a matter of who started it at this point. The fact of the matter is the world, yes the world, is on the brink of a war. It is not a war between two nations; it is a war between Muslim fundamentalists and the world. They want the entire western world wiped out and their main goal in all of this is to have a caliphate type of government that rules over the entire world...it honestly is not directed specifically at the US. If you think it is, then you need to educated yourself on a jihadist's true mission (it's not to blow everything in site up as is often portrayed). The world is in the war, whether they want to be or not. The world can fix the issue, or they can sit back and point fingers like they're better.
There's also the issue that you're basing 300+ million people on one President's 7 year term. If that's not ignorant and insane logic, I don't know what is. There's a reason the US's universities rank as some of the highest in the world. There's a reason why millions of foreigners come here every year on educational visas to go to college here. There's a reason why a huge amount of the new vaccines/cures/surgeries for every field of health and medicine are developed here. I'm pretty sure it's not cause every American is stupid and doesn't know where their country is.
The point still stands that there are more important issues than where your country is on a map. Again, if you (or anyone) thinks that a lack of geography skills is at the top of any list, the priorities are wrong.
|
And who elected "The Bush Administration"?..........-twice- | polis wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: |
The Bush Administration started it. If you want to fault them for that, I'll happily join you. Blaming the American public for it is absurd. They were constantly lied to and fed misinformation from the media/government in an attempt to gain support for the war. The country had just been attacked by terrorists (9/11); the government used that as a backdrop to gain support and push forth the idea that we must fight back. Blame the entire country all you want, but there is no present or past superpower/empire in the history of the world that didn't fight less than a few bad wars. If you're too blinded by pride for your country to see that, I don't know what to tell you (no I'm not defending the choice to invade Iraq). And honestly, living seven years in the past is useless. It's not a matter of who started it at this point. The fact of the matter is the world, yes the world, is on the brink of a war. It is not a war between two nations; it is a war between Muslim fundamentalists and the world. They want the entire western world wiped out and their main goal in all of this is to have a caliphate type of government that rules over the entire world...it honestly is not directed specifically at the US. If you think it is, then you need to educated yourself on a jihadist's true mission (it's not to blow everything in site up as is often portrayed). The world is in the war, whether they want to be or not. The world can fix the issue, or they can sit back and point fingers like they're better.
There's also the issue that you're basing 300+ million people on one President's 7 year term. If that's not ignorant and insane logic, I don't know what is. There's a reason the US's universities rank as some of the highest in the world. There's a reason why millions of foreigners come here every year on educational visas to go to college here. There's a reason why a huge amount of the new vaccines/cures/surgeries for every field of health and medicine are developed here. I'm pretty sure it's not cause every American is stupid and doesn't know where their country is.
The point still stands that there are more important issues than where your country is on a map. Again, if you (or anyone) thinks that a lack of geography skills is at the top of any list, the priorities are wrong.
|
And who elected "The Bush Administration"?..........-twice- |
Not me. And still living in the past. It's something that can't be changed. If you refuse to look at the present, at the situation in front of everybody (not just the US), then I can no longer have this discussion. You're just skimming over my posts with the intentions of finding some loophole so you can make some smartass comment about anything. | polis wrote: |
| Note: 20% of Americans can't find their own country in a world map. |
40% of humans cannot read a map. What's your point? | Billy Hill wrote: |
| polis wrote: | | Note: 20% of Americans can't find their own country in a world map. |
40% of humans cannot read a map. What's your point? |
LOL, what you're saying makes no sense at all. | polis wrote: |
| Billy Hill wrote: | | polis wrote: | | Note: 20% of Americans can't find their own country in a world map. |
40% of humans cannot read a map. What's your point? |
LOL, what you're saying makes no sense at all. |
It figures. Can YOU read a map? Cuz you're having a hard time reading english. 
I'm American (Statian), and I have to agree we're pretty dumb. We weren't always this way, though... my elder relatives learned all manner of interesting things by the time they left high school, like every national capital, the succession of the British monarchy back into the 1700s, Latin (and not by choice), the chance-percentage table for a game of craps up to the third round, etc. With the exception of the craps tables, these things were in the national curriculum. When I went through high school, we only learned US history (and a large section on the USSR), with a digression here and there to cover our allies in World War II. Latin wasn't offered. The only kids who could find any Asian, African, or South American nations on the map were the ones with ethnic background in those countries, or the ones taking Spanish to fulfill their one-year language requirement. I'd like to think that I fixed all that in college, but the truth is, even my general courses there didn't present a lot of the basic material that students in Europe or Asia have already memorized regarding the world, history, and languages. It wasn't that we were expected to have known it, either -- it was simply never made necessary.
So, I wonder... is this lack of information the result of a nationalistic preoccupation, "we don't learn the world because we only focus on America in our culture," or is it rather a paring down of the curriculum to adjust for the actual abilities of the modern American student? Is American culture predisposed to allow ignorance of the world at large, or are Americans simply too dumb to keep up?
Either way, it's funny to note that in almost every primetime drama on US television, if a character is supposed to be "smart," he or she is often played with a British accent. Really.
;_; I dislike my nation's averages.
Yay geographic knowledge insufficiency.
But I still think it's worse in America... so many folks can't even name the states bordering their own. I’ve found that in general, stupid people assume everyone else is stupid, especially people or ideas that are complex or different.
If you think that Americans are, in general, stupid; you must also believe that God really is on their side.
With regard to geography, the thing about America, if you’ve ever been there, anything and everything you could ever want or need is usually right there. People can easily live their entire lives, lacking nothing, without traveling over a sea, ocean, large river, or national beerier. The average American doesn’t need to know much Geography.
The US developed usable antibiotics, plastics, and a million other things. I wouldn’t call them stupid, especially if I lived in one of the European countries – France – that has been bailed out numerous times over the past 100 years by them.
Anyway, if it makes you feel better to bash the US, go ahead. According to American values you have that right. Millions of those silly bastards had sacrificed to ensure those rights to Americans and its allies.
One other quick thing: Americans do care what goes on outside their country and the ramifications of their actions. You might disagree with US policies and ways they have handled threats, but you can’t ignore the American spirit. The fact that every person is not ‘free’ and does not have access to such things as clean water, air, and food simply appalls them. They call such things human rights. There’s even talk of medical insurance being a human ‘right.’
Personally, I like that idea, stupid or not.
I know this was all in fun (although many seem to take such silly videos as seriously as they do statistics), but I must at this point quote from the classic novel, "A Study in Scarlet."
Most people here would probably agree that Sherlock Holmes is arguably one of the most intelligent characters in literature. Yet he too would be ignorant of most of the facts used here to support the stupidity of Americans.
| Watson and Holmes in A Study in Scarlet wrote: |
His ignorance was as remarkable as his knowledge. Of contemporary literature, philosophy and politics he appeared to know next to nothing. Upon my quoting Thomas Carlyle, he inquired in the naivest way who he might be and what he had done. My surprise reached a climax, however, when I found incidentally that he was ignorant of the Copernican Theory and of the composition of the Solar System. That any civilized human being in this nineteenth century should not be aware that the earth travelled round the sun appeared to be to me such an extraordinary fact that I could hardly realize it. Watson, describing Holmes in "A Study in Scarlet"
"What the deuce is it to me?" he interrupted impatiently; "you say that we go round the sun. If we went round the moon it would not make a pennyworth of difference to me or to my work." Sherlock Holmes, in "A Study in Scarlet"
"You see," he explained, "I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skilful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that a little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones." Sherlock Holmes, in "A Study in Scarlet" |
Holmes would argue that "useless" facts are anything unrelated to your particular work. Thus general knowledge (except for that which helps you in your occupation), according to Doyle's famous detective, is a waste of brain space.
In fact, once Watson briefly educated Holmes on the Solar System, Holmes vowed to forget it as soon as possible!
Respectfully,
M Good job, Moon, I was about to mention that.
Stupidity is very different than ignorance. Ignorance is not knowing some, or many, "facts", as compared to a less ignorant person. Like that of city folk stranded in a rural area for a while, and not knowing some of the basic things children who live there know.
Stupidity is, essentially, the making of "bad decisions" while having the same facts as those who make good decisions. Like deciding to call in sick when you want to sleep longer -- every day for a week (as compared to maybe once a year).
The silly Bush hatred about Iraq is particularly funny -- what war? In America, only Congress can "declare war". And it hasn't done so since Dec 7, 1941 ... ok, since Dec 10 and thru WW II.
Korea? Police action, not really a war. Vietnam? same. Desert Storm in 91? not quite a "war", because it was in support of a UN SC resolution (660 it's on the UN site), followed by a cease-fire, with conditions that Iraq needed to comply with.
And, as documented here http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/iraq/timeline.htm, refused to comply with.
So America's military involvement in Iraq begins in 1990, after Saddam invaded Kuwait ... and it didn't end in 1998 when Pres. Clinton made "regime change" the US official policy, nor did it end when Congress in 2002 (in Oct, before Nov elections and under threat of losing to voters wanting an end to terrorism) voted to authorize force, nor did it end when Saddam ran away, was caught, tried and executed. Whatever the fighting is, it's not over yet.
But it's getting close -- and maybe even by next year Iraq will be looking a heck of a lot better than Congo (where the UN has been so active, especially trading food for young girl sex), or Zimbabwe (where anti-American economic policies have turned former food exporter into a humanitarian basket case), or Darfur (where Bush says genocide is occurring, but the UN says no ...).
Of course, I doubt if any of the commenters who laugh at Bush on the Iraq war (what else to call it? but is it, really?) have actually read the 16 UN SC resolutions.
It's so much easier to think Bush, an MBA graduate, is stupid -- while remaining ignorant.
Just like most Americans, mostly out of laziness, don't bother learning about other unimportant countries.
How much do you know about Burkina Faso? Why should you, or I, or most folk, care? | TomGrey wrote: |
...
The silly Bush hatred about Iraq is particularly funny -- what war? In America, only Congress can "declare war". And it hasn't done so since Dec 7, 1941 ... ok, since Dec 10 and thru WW II.
...
But it's getting close -- and maybe even by next year Iraq will be looking a heck of a lot better than Congo (where the UN has been so active, especially trading food for young girl sex), or Zimbabwe (where anti-American economic policies have turned former food exporter into a humanitarian basket case), or Darfur (where Bush says genocide is occurring, but the UN says no ...).
Of course, I doubt if any of the commenters who laugh at Bush on the Iraq war (what else to call it? but is it, really?) have actually read the 16 UN SC resolutions.
It's so much easier to think Bush, an MBA graduate, is stupid -- while remaining ignorant.
...
|
Brilliant.
Very good points about Iraq and Bush. Points that will (and have) gone completely ignored by many here.Why Americans? In a local news paper, I read that about 40% of Europeans believes that the Everest is in Europe !
| TomGrey wrote: |
Of course, I doubt if any of the commenters who laugh at Bush on the Iraq war (what else to call it? but is it, really?) have actually read the 16 UN SC resolutions.
It's so much easier to think Bush, an MBA graduate, is stupid -- while remaining ignorant. |
I doubt he's read it either...
It's funny to defend him on the propaganda he spread to get support for Iraq considering he's doing the exact same thing at this moment with Iran. There's a trend. They declared the Iran regime a terrorist group. Now they've set their sights on keeping Iran from getting weapons of mass destruction. I think I've seen this movie before...it doesn't end that good.
Don't try to tell me a degree means somebody is smart. He got into Yale because of his families background. He graduated with C's. His ignorance (or lack of use) of history is reprehensible. His stubbornness destroys any bit of intelligence he has. His inability to get over the fact that god doesn't talk to him destroys any bit of intelligence he has. This idea that he has some intellectual type of thinking that no one else can acquire allows him to brainwash himself into thinking pure bullshit is true. He's a lying, ignorant, stubborn man in the most powerful position in the world. He used 9/11 as a backdrop to gain support for Iraq and now he's using it to gain support to invade Iran. The "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality just shows he's ignorant and...well, I don't like to say it, but stupid. It's not how you run foreign policy or diplomacy.
And I know he's not the only one to blame, because the entire administration is corrupt and full of crap, but don't tell me his intelligence comes through in his decisions. I don't care how smart he is outside of the presidency or how much he reads outside of the office. Means nothing to me. Simple fact of the matter is his ignorance of the Middle East, ignorance of how diplomacy is supposed to work, and pure stubbornness to admit he made some mistakes along the way has led us into one of the shittiest positions we've ever been in since the US was founded. | liljp617 wrote: |
| TomGrey wrote: | Of course, I doubt if any of the commenters who laugh at Bush on the Iraq war (what else to call it? but is it, really?) have actually read the 16 UN SC resolutions.
It's so much easier to think Bush, an MBA graduate, is stupid -- while remaining ignorant. |
I doubt he's read it either...
It's funny to defend him on the propaganda he spread to get support for Iraq considering he's doing the exact same thing at this moment with Iran. There's a trend. They declared the Iran regime a terrorist group. Now they've set their sights on keeping Iran from getting weapons of mass destruction. I think I've seen this movie before...it doesn't end that good.
Don't try to tell me a degree means somebody is smart. He got into Yale because of his families background. He graduated with C's. His ignorance (or lack of use) of history is reprehensible. His stubbornness destroys any bit of intelligence he has. His inability to get over the fact that god doesn't talk to him destroys any bit of intelligence he has. This idea that he has some intellectual type of thinking that no one else can acquire allows him to brainwash himself into thinking pure bullshit is true. He's a lying, ignorant, stubborn man in the most powerful position in the world. He used 9/11 as a backdrop to gain support for Iraq and now he's using it to gain support to invade Iran. The "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality just shows he's ignorant and...well, I don't like to say it, but stupid. It's not how you run foreign policy or diplomacy.
And I know he's not the only one to blame, because the entire administration is corrupt and full of crap, but don't tell me his intelligence comes through in his decisions. I don't care how smart he is outside of the presidency or how much he reads outside of the office. Means nothing to me. Simple fact of the matter is his ignorance of the Middle East, ignorance of how diplomacy is supposed to work, and pure stubbornness to admit he made some mistakes along the way has led us into one of the shittiest positions we've ever been in since the US was founded. |
Really? We're in a worse position now as a country than we were in 1812? 1861? 1929? 1941? I find that truly hard to believe. In fact, I find entirely unsupportable.
And there's nothing wrong with being stubborn. Look at Lincoln. He had more problems with domestic support than Bush (or any other president) could ever imagine. And Lincoln was prosecuting the most unpopular war in U.S. history. He stuck to his position and I think the United States is better off for it. Perhaps you would have voted for McClellan in 1864, but I would have voted for Lincoln.
Respectfully,
M | MoonSpider wrote: |
Really? We're in a worse position now as a country than we were in 1812? 1861? 1929? 1941? I find that truly hard to believe. In fact, I find entirely unsupportable.
And there's nothing wrong with being stubborn. Look at Lincoln. He had more problems with domestic support than Bush (or any other president) could ever imagine. And Lincoln was prosecuting the most unpopular war in U.S. history. He stuck to his position and I think the United States is better off for it. Perhaps you would have voted for McClellan in 1864, but I would have voted for Lincoln. |
The most unpopular war to Americans may have been that of 1812. And then perhaps Vietnam.
But as every day goes by, and the news of a American death in Iraq or Afghanistan, operation enduring freedom, is slowly becoming unpopular.
But it doesnt matter if its unpopular to the people, it matters on the damage its done to America.
Yes, the American ppl may still love Bush, and if it had been possible, may have voted him for third time (thank god he cant run again ).
But, we are living in a global society, a small world full of International Press and Opinions. America has become the most hated nation ever on this Earth. No one loves America anymore. America is seen as the worlds biggest bully and noone nation in the entire histroy books, has been hated so much.
WHo is americas best friend? Britain? France? Germany? Russia? Rest of Euorpe? No. The whole of Middle east (including Israel)? No. Africa? China? India? No, No, and No!
The only friend u may have is at most Japan (and u should be thankful for that, cus I do not know how a nations people can forgive when u completely destroyed their country thru 2 nuclear bombs). But every other major power and relevant nation hates you.
and now look at your economy. Look at how much the war costs u. u r wasting over a billion a week in Iraq which could go towards improving the lives of ur own citzzens. The American economy is on the verge of collapse. The American people r up to their eyeballs in debt, and yet u think u can fix Iraqs problems when u cannot even fix ur own.Are you ok over there ThePolemistis? Let me help you out a bit. First, I don’t think the world hates the US, it is more so frustrated and fearful that her policies have not gone smooth in an age were we’ve all gotten used to the US as being powerhouse of competence. I suppose you can’t blame anyone for it, not even Bush.
The country has finally been forced to face her enemy. Not “terrorism;” Fascist Islamic fundamentalists. This enemy fights in an old way but on a grand world wide scale using viral recruiting.
As for being the most hated country in history, that is just silly: Nazi Germany, 1916 Germany, Rome, USSR, 1940 Japan. Any displeasure with the US is publicized but hate? Remember everyone wants to come to the US and her farmers feed half of them. Most people know the American people are very interested in their countries actions and developing and improving the world.
The countries you list are all still friends with the US; still trading with and supporting, just not with hard apparent boots and rifles. And just for your historical facts collection, the US didn’t destroy Japan with 2 nuclear bombs. The US had already crushed every other city large city on that island with incendiary bomb, the only difference being residual radiation and 3 planes rather than 300. In other words, the fire bomb attacks were as bad as the nuclear ones. The controversy around dropping the nuclear bombs is asinine. If there’s any controversy it should surround the intentional bombing of civilians, something that the US and GB did to Germany as well. The world was glad the US had the backbone for the job and can trust she’ll be there again; she’s learned though and would rather face threats early, before you stick, “World,” in front of the conflict name.
Don’t worry about the US economy. That billion a week is peanuts and so is her dept. She may approached an Economic Growth Recession (This is what the media sometimes calls a ‘recession’ and is when the economy GROWS less that something like 1.5%) but that’s nothing new. The biggest fear was $100+ oil but it’s looking like things are shaping up to accept it.
And just so you understand, the idea with Iraq is to fix Iraq in order to PREVENT foreseen problems. That’s the understanding. Trouble in the Mid-east means trouble for oil means trouble for everyone, remember besides powering SUVs the US feeds us with oil – one way or the other – and it powers developing countries who have no green options. So – yes blood for oil regardless of war….
Okay... im typing this out for the second time because i accdiently pressed the back button. I should listen to Moonspider more and do it in MS Word arghh. much of my point r lost, and i cant remmeber loll.
Ill try to be straight to the point as possible, but clear too cus im very tried.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
Are you ok over there ThePolemistis? Let me help you out a bit. First, I don’t think the world hates the US, it is more so frustrated and fearful that her policies have not gone smooth in an age were we’ve all gotten used to the US as being powerhouse of competence. I suppose you can’t blame anyone for it, not even Bush.
|
Im fine thanks . Lolll... US being a powerhouse of competence?? Bush is incompotent, which is making America incompotent in carrying out their duties. Just look at Iraq.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
The country has finally been forced to face her enemy. Not “terrorism;” Fascist Islamic fundamentalists. This enemy fights in an old way but on a grand world wide scale using viral recruiting.
|
This is an enemy that America herself has created, simply because of her biased, racist and unjust foreign practises.
1. America funded these Islamic fundies $30 billion in afghanistan, where the US president at the time said the Russian invasion of afghanistan is the biggest threat to world peace since WW2.
2. Dictatorship fuels Islamic fundamentalism. America constantly funds and supports the dictatorsips of Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi and mcuh more, and these are the very countries these extremsits groups arise from (due to resentment of their governments). If you make governments oppress their people, then surely the people will rebel, and they see extremism the only way to establish peace.
Look at the Palestinians. They are the forgotten people. 6 million Jews died in WW2, which is saddening of course. But why have the Palestinians paid the price? Which American media emphasises that over a million Palestinians were forced out their homes because their lands were stolen from them? None do. And the Palestinians are the most oppressed people in the world, all thanks to America which gives Israel more funds than the whole of Africa. She vetos most resolutiosn against Israel too.
And the world questions why the Palestinians are blowing themselves up? Cherie Blair (wife of PM Tony Blair) once said, "As long as young people feel they have got no hope but to blow themselves up you are never going to make progress."
By trapping the Palestinians in cages like the ISraelis r doing (similar to that of what the Nazis did to them), u dont give the Palestinians much options, do you?
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
As for being the most hated country in history, that is just silly: Nazi Germany, 1916 Germany, Rome, USSR, 1940 Japan. Any displeasure with the US is publicized but hate? Remember everyone wants to come to the US and her farmers feed half of them. Most people know the American people are very interested in their countries actions and developing and improving the world.
|
Todays world is different. We are living in more of a global society, with the Interntional press shaping public opinion, demestically and internationally.
Where the Germans hated by the little villages in China or by people on the otherside of the world? No. They were only hated by the people they had direct conflict with.
However, Europe hates America and they are not even at war.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
The countries you list are all still friends with the US; still trading with and supporting, just not with hard apparent boots and rifles. And just for your historical facts collection, the US didn’t destroy Japan with 2 nuclear bombs. The US had already crushed every other city large city on that island with incendiary bomb, the only difference being residual radiation and 3 planes rather than 300. In other words, the fire bomb attacks were as bad as the nuclear ones. The controversy around dropping the nuclear bombs is asinine. If there’s any controversy it should surround the intentional bombing of civilians, something that the US and GB did to Germany as well. The world was glad the US had the backbone for the job and can trust she’ll be there again; she’s learned though and would rather face threats early, before you stick, “World,” in front of the conflict name.
|
America is becoming the most hated nation in the world. Todays leaders are yesterdays people who did not dislike America as much. Tomorrows leaders will be from todays people who hate america.
Tony Blairs love for America forced him to resign.
Americans illegal war saw the largest anti-war demonstartion (or any demonstartion), Britain has ever seen EVER. Even more than the demostartions that forced thatcher to resign.
France and Russia both felt to veto any attempt to legitamise the war by America in the eyes of the UN.
China is not exactly Americas best of friends.
and I could go on.
But more specifically, I was relating to peoples opinions. The people of the country and not necessarily the politicians. I thinkin a report 60% of Iraqis are willing to blow themselves up to get Americans out of Iraq.
Regarding trade: yes it is true these countries are still trading. But so were American companies such as Ford still operating under Nazi Germany.
Also, 10% of Americas oil comes from Venezuela. Is Venezuela are wonderful friend of the United States? Of course not, and it is ignorant to base friendship simply on trade.
on the Jpanese issue: I am not here to debate it. But FYI: I was stating that the nuclear bomb is the greatest crime a nation can commit in warfare and yet Japanese still found it in themselves to forgive America. Children are being born blind and permanently disbaled still today because of the aftermath of the nuclear bombs 60 years ago, and yet Japan has the notion to forgive and forget.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
Don’t worry about the US economy. That billion a week is peanuts and so is her dept. She may approached an Economic Growth Recession (This is what the media sometimes calls a ‘recession’ and is when the economy GROWS less that something like 1.5%) but that’s nothing new. The biggest fear was $100+ oil but it’s looking like things are shaping up to accept it.
|
Dont worry, I am not worrying- but you should.
Your people are getting in debt, house prices are falling, a recession is only imminent. Greenspan and Burnank agree.
AFAIK regarding recession, it is when there is 2 quarters of a fall in output. Dont quote me on it tho... but yea... it would still fit ur above definition and if the next quarters were 2.5 and 2.4% growth and now was 2.6,, then i guess this would be a recession. or the definition might be 2 quarters of negative growth. You look it up,, your the one who needs to
Yup, regarding oil: not much of a tragedy. You know ur Saudi puppets will kiss ur feet and loewr prices the moment u put pressure on them. The recent example of Iran and Venezuela wanting to change oil currency, but Saudis refusal because it will "hurt America" is one clear example.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
And just so you understand, the idea with Iraq is to fix Iraq in order to PREVENT foreseen problems. That’s the understanding. Trouble in the Mid-east means trouble for oil means trouble for everyone, remember besides powering SUVs the US feeds us with oil – one way or the other – and it powers developing countries who have no green options. So – yes blood for oil regardless of war….
|
im for democracy in the middle east. But they need to create democracy not us. If we create democracy, it will be dictatorships (ie Husni Mubarak), and that results in extremism i.e. bad for us.
if we let them get on with their lives i.e. stop funding the corrupt SAudis who dont even let women to drive, then I think the MidEast will be mcuh peaceful.
It means good ties with US and Europe, cheaper oil for us, better investment for them, the world is happy. Then if they build their infrastructure like Malaysia is doing, precisely because of no American influence, there is no need for blood for oil, they'll probably give us it for free, just maybe. I agree with ThePolemistis, but America still has some friends:
-Israel
-United Kingdom
-South Korea
-Saudi Arabia
-Japan
The rest of the world hates America.
| polis wrote: |
I agree with ThePolemistis, but America still has some friends:
-Israel
-United Kingdom
-South Korea
-Saudi Arabia
-Japan
The rest of the world hates America. |
Actually... these friends are slowly becoming not so good friends with exception on japan. On political level, which I assume u are talking about.
Although by friends(or even they dont resent america sense), im more talking about the people which make up the country , not exactly the political leaders, otherwise most of teh arab world would be America's friends including Iraq, but of course, we know that is not the case.Are you ok over there ThePolemistis? Let me help you out a bit. First, I don’t think the world hates the US, it is more so frustrated and fearful that her policies have not gone smooth in an age were we’ve all gotten used to the US as being powerhouse of competence. I suppose you can’t blame anyone for it, not even Bush.
[/quote]
Im fine thanks . Lolll... US being a powerhouse of competence?? Bush is incompotent, which is making America incompotent in carrying out their duties. Just look at Iraq.[/quote]
And that scares people because they're used to relying on the US as the competent world leader.
| ThePolemistis wrote: |
This is an enemy that America herself has created, simply because of her biased, racist and unjust foreign practises.
1. America funded these Islamic fundies $30 billion in afghanistan, where the US president at the time said the Russian invasion of afghanistan is the biggest threat to world peace since WW2.
2. Dictatorship fuels Islamic fundamentalism. America constantly funds and supports the dictatorsips of Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi and mcuh more, and these are the very countries these extremsits groups arise from (due to resentment of their governments). If you make governments oppress their people, then surely the people will rebel, and they see extremism the only way to establish peace.
Look at the Palestinians. They are the forgotten people. 6 million Jews died in WW2, which is saddening of course. But why have the Palestinians paid the price? Which American media emphasises that over a million Palestinians were forced out their homes because their lands were stolen from them? None do. And the Palestinians are the most oppressed people in the world, all thanks to America which gives Israel more funds than the whole of Africa. She vetos most resolutiosn against Israel too.
And the world questions why the Palestinians are blowing themselves up? Cherie Blair (wife of PM Tony Blair) once said, "As long as young people feel they have got no hope but to blow themselves up you are never going to make progress."
By trapping the Palestinians in cages like the ISraelis r doing (similar to that of what the Nazis did to them), u dont give the Palestinians much options, do you? |
1. he US supported a people fighting for their freedom from the Iron Curtin through Pakistan's ISI. Al Quaeda came out of the Afghan Arabs, a foreign group including Bin Ladin. So no, they didn't 'create' the 'terrorist.' If you know the history and understanding, you would realize this decision would seem necessary to stave off an expansionist HUGE dictatorship. Thank whatever god you believe in for that because you wouldn't be aloud to if the USSR absorbed your country. When the next expansionist empire emerges hopefully there will be an entity like to US to rescue the world again.
2. Poor ignorant people fuel Islamic fundamentalism, and true, dictatorships produce poor ignorant people - it's a necessary mechanism to keep the people's minds on their stomachs and not on their leadership. You can blame the US for dictatorships. The US has supported those who would support world stability, sadly, not all of these supporters have the same values as the US.
3. Yes, look at Palestine. Everybody look. They are Arabs and the Israelis are Jews. The US supports Israel so it must be supporting the Zionist Empire that wants to take over the world and kill all the Arabs....
US supports Israel because it is friendly to the US and all its neighbors proclaim they plan to destroy it. Are you saying that if the US let Israel be massacred the fundamentalists would let up? Israel deals poorly with Palestine but that is a whole mess the US can't be blamed for. The allies put Israel together after WWII. Blame the US if you want. It's popular. Anything but taking responsibility yourself and teaching your children not to blow themselves up an seek a rational solution and choose non-fanatic leader to bring them out of oppression. That's how the other oppressed people have done it.
| ThePolemistis wrote: |
Todays world is different. We are living in more of a global society, with the Interntional press shaping public opinion, demestically and internationally.
Where the Germans hated by the little villages in China or by people on the otherside of the world? No. They were only hated by the people they had direct conflict with.
However, Europe hates America and they are not even at war. |
Is it different? Does Europe HATE the US? If they do they do a poor job of showing it. We still trade. It's just fear and disappointment. The difference is communication and global trade. Yes, people on the other side of the world hated 1914 Germany. That's why people from all over the globe converged in France to fight the Germans. Everyone communicates and trades with the US so everyone gets upset when their not looking great.
| ThePolemistis wrote: |
America is becoming the most hated nation in the world. Todays leaders are yesterdays people who did not dislike America as much. Tomorrows leaders will be from todays people who hate america.
Tony Blairs love for America forced him to resign.
Americans illegal war saw the largest anti-war demonstartion (or any demonstartion), Britain has ever seen EVER. Even more than the demostartions that forced thatcher to resign.
France and Russia both felt to veto any attempt to legitamise the war by America in the eyes of the UN.
China is not exactly Americas best of friends.
and I could go on.
But more specifically, I was relating to peoples opinions. The people of the country and not necessarily the politicians. I thinkin a report 60% of Iraqis are willing to blow themselves up to get Americans out of Iraq.
Regarding trade: yes it is true these countries are still trading. But so were American companies such as Ford still operating under Nazi Germany.
Also, 10% of Americas oil comes from Venezuela. Is Venezuela are wonderful friend of the United States? Of course not, and it is ignorant to base friendship simply on trade.
on the Jpanese issue: I am not here to debate it. But FYI: I was stating that the nuclear bomb is the greatest crime a nation can commit in warfare and yet Japanese still found it in themselves to forgive America. Children are being born blind and permanently disbaled still today because of the aftermath of the nuclear bombs 60 years ago, and yet Japan has the notion to forgive and forget. |
I would never judge public opinion on protesters. Comfortable people protest any war they don't understand and there are a lot more comfortable people now. The Iraqi invasion looks like a mistake because it is costly. If it wasn't costly, lives, and had gone smooth putting up a democracy in a year, no one would be complaining. Regardless, Sadam caused the invasion by not showing that he had no WMD, of course he didn't want to show that because he was afraid or Iran.... Someone had to move. If the US didn't, they would have looked incapable. Sadam couldn't move or he would.
I seriously doubt your %60. More likely %99.999999 would rather their children go to school and their wives have food to buy. They're just afraid of open support because of the fundamentalists. Soon, hopefully, if things continue as they are, the Iraqi economy will grow, the people will choose rational leaders, and their country will flourish - that's the goal. Every one's best interests.
We're not talking about friendship, we're talking about HATE. US companies continued trading with Germany in the beginning of the war, before it grew into a global war. France and Germany had been at each other for a thousand years before that.
Japan forgive? How cut.... Do you have any idea what Japan did to Asia?
| ThePolemistis wrote: |
Dont worry, I am not worrying- but you should.
Your people are getting in debt, house prices are falling, a recession is only imminent. Greenspan and Burnank agree.
AFAIK regarding recession, it is when there is 2 quarters of a fall in output. Dont quote me on it tho... but yea... it would still fit ur above definition and if the next quarters were 2.5 and 2.4% growth and now was 2.6,, then i guess this would be a recession. or the definition might be 2 quarters of negative growth. You look it up,, your the one who needs to
Yup, regarding oil: not much of a tragedy. You know ur Saudi puppets will kiss ur feet and loewr prices the moment u put pressure on them. The recent example of Iran and Venezuela wanting to change oil currency, but Saudis refusal because it will "hurt America" is one clear example. |
If your not worried why should I? You know what happens in the type of recession the US is facing? Fewer Christman presents, low SUV sales, less eating out.... No body starves. I'm not sure what you problem is with US oil agreements. Do you WANT oil to cost the US more? I sort of do, it would put the US in a better direction concerning energy. The trouble for other countries is that during the transition food will cost more.
| ThePolemistis wrote: |
im for democracy in the middle east. But they need to create democracy not us. If we create democracy, it will be dictatorships (ie Husni Mubarak), and that results in extremism i.e. bad for us.
if we let them get on with their lives i.e. stop funding the corrupt SAudis who dont even let women to drive, then I think the MidEast will be mcuh peaceful.
It means good ties with US and Europe, cheaper oil for us, better investment for them, the world is happy. Then if they build their infrastructure like Malaysia is doing, precisely because of no American influence, there is no need for blood for oil, they'll probably give us it for free, just maybe. |
Malaysia is doing well because they don't have crazy leaders. I doubt destroying relations with the Saudis would result in women being able to drive cars and thus a free Mid-East.... I don't mean to be condescending but you'll have to explain to me how trading with Saudi Arabia is steal in democracy from the ME. I thought it was the extremists convincing people that they should blow themselves up until everyone is under Sharea law and the corrupt dictators who's only interest is in keeping power?
Invading Iraq was not for the purposes of installing democracy. Bush determined Sadam a threat and decided that removing him then was better than waiting until US credibility was warn out with everyone with regard to threats of military action. That's what he did. We can look back and disagree but we won't ever really know what would have happened if he didn't. The US elects leaders who plan on protecting their lives and keeping the economy strong. That was his goal.
I wouldn't blame the US for dealing with the Saudis. Would you have the US only deal with countries with leaders that share the same values? That would certainly not be good for the people of the world. The US only cuts off relations when a nation posses an open threat to it or its allies. Saudi Arabia has posed no such threat and is cooperative in fighting the Fascists.
And as for your point about Africa, take a look and the increases Bush has made to those projects.... Would you call that stupid? Or maybe the smart thing to do is cut off Israel, let them be destroyed, stop all influence in the ME (that will make the Fascists happy, right), allow US gasoline to rise to $15 per gallon, make a difficult transition over the next ten years to alternative energy, and just not worry about the other countries we are currently able to support.
Besides letting our allies down, I sort of like the idea. Burning oil is a sin anyway. We already have people (not the idiot auto companies) getting 100 miles to the gallon on biodiesel in SUVs, the wind turbine factories can turn out enough of them, and if the US stopped feeding half the world it could produce plenty of ethanol (not from stupid corn). The stupid hillbillies on my block might have to keep their doors and window closed in winter though. Gee - I hope they can deal with it. | Moonspider wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | | TomGrey wrote: | Of course, I doubt if any of the commenters who laugh at Bush on the Iraq war (what else to call it? but is it, really?) have actually read the 16 UN SC resolutions.
It's so much easier to think Bush, an MBA graduate, is stupid -- while remaining ignorant. |
I doubt he's read it either...
It's funny to defend him on the propaganda he spread to get support for Iraq considering he's doing the exact same thing at this moment with Iran. There's a trend. They declared the Iran regime a terrorist group. Now they've set their sights on keeping Iran from getting weapons of mass destruction. I think I've seen this movie before...it doesn't end that good.
Don't try to tell me a degree means somebody is smart. He got into Yale because of his families background. He graduated with C's. His ignorance (or lack of use) of history is reprehensible. His stubbornness destroys any bit of intelligence he has. His inability to get over the fact that god doesn't talk to him destroys any bit of intelligence he has. This idea that he has some intellectual type of thinking that no one else can acquire allows him to brainwash himself into thinking pure bullshit is true. He's a lying, ignorant, stubborn man in the most powerful position in the world. He used 9/11 as a backdrop to gain support for Iraq and now he's using it to gain support to invade Iran. The "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality just shows he's ignorant and...well, I don't like to say it, but stupid. It's not how you run foreign policy or diplomacy.
And I know he's not the only one to blame, because the entire administration is corrupt and full of crap, but don't tell me his intelligence comes through in his decisions. I don't care how smart he is outside of the presidency or how much he reads outside of the office. Means nothing to me. Simple fact of the matter is his ignorance of the Middle East, ignorance of how diplomacy is supposed to work, and pure stubbornness to admit he made some mistakes along the way has led us into one of the shittiest positions we've ever been in since the US was founded. |
Really? We're in a worse position now as a country than we were in 1812? 1861? 1929? 1941? I find that truly hard to believe. In fact, I find entirely unsupportable.
And there's nothing wrong with being stubborn. Look at Lincoln. He had more problems with domestic support than Bush (or any other president) could ever imagine. And Lincoln was prosecuting the most unpopular war in U.S. history. He stuck to his position and I think the United States is better off for it. Perhaps you would have voted for McClellan in 1864, but I would have voted for Lincoln.
Respectfully,
M |
There's a particular reason I said "one of the worst." If you don't think we're in one of the worst positions ever I don't know what to tell you. Allies turning their backs on us, torturing people with no evidence they have info, fighting a war that is costing billions upon billions of dollars while 70% of the nation is against it, not catching the people responsible for 9/11, invading a country for no evident reason other than to "liberate the people," overthrowing a dictator who at least had some control only to replace it with a government that has no control and one the Iraqi people despise...the list goes on and on. | liljp617 wrote: |
| Moonspider wrote: | | liljp617 wrote: | | TomGrey wrote: | Of course, I doubt if any of the commenters who laugh at Bush on the Iraq war (what else to call it? but is it, really?) have actually read the 16 UN SC resolutions.
It's so much easier to think Bush, an MBA graduate, is stupid -- while remaining ignorant. |
I doubt he's read it either...
It's funny to defend him on the propaganda he spread to get support for Iraq considering he's doing the exact same thing at this moment with Iran. There's a trend. They declared the Iran regime a terrorist group. Now they've set their sights on keeping Iran from getting weapons of mass destruction. I think I've seen this movie before...it doesn't end that good.
Don't try to tell me a degree means somebody is smart. He got into Yale because of his families background. He graduated with C's. His ignorance (or lack of use) of history is reprehensible. His stubbornness destroys any bit of intelligence he has. His inability to get over the fact that god doesn't talk to him destroys any bit of intelligence he has. This idea that he has some intellectual type of thinking that no one else can acquire allows him to brainwash himself into thinking pure bullshit is true. He's a lying, ignorant, stubborn man in the most powerful position in the world. He used 9/11 as a backdrop to gain support for Iraq and now he's using it to gain support to invade Iran. The "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality just shows he's ignorant and...well, I don't like to say it, but stupid. It's not how you run foreign policy or diplomacy.
And I know he's not the only one to blame, because the entire administration is corrupt and full of crap, but don't tell me his intelligence comes through in his decisions. I don't care how smart he is outside of the presidency or how much he reads outside of the office. Means nothing to me. Simple fact of the matter is his ignorance of the Middle East, ignorance of how diplomacy is supposed to work, and pure stubbornness to admit he made some mistakes along the way has led us into one of the shittiest positions we've ever been in since the US was founded. |
Really? We're in a worse position now as a country than we were in 1812? 1861? 1929? 1941? I find that truly hard to believe. In fact, I find entirely unsupportable.
And there's nothing wrong with being stubborn. Look at Lincoln. He had more problems with domestic support than Bush (or any other president) could ever imagine. And Lincoln was prosecuting the most unpopular war in U.S. history. He stuck to his position and I think the United States is better off for it. Perhaps you would have voted for McClellan in 1864, but I would have voted for Lincoln.
Respectfully,
M |
There's a particular reason I said "one of the worst." If you don't think we're in one of the worst positions ever I don't know what to tell you. Allies turning their backs on us, torturing people with no evidence they have info, fighting a war that is costing billions upon billions of dollars while 70% of the nation is against it, not catching the people responsible for 9/11, invading a country for no evident reason other than to "liberate the people," overthrowing a dictator who at least had some control only to replace it with a government that has no control and one the Iraqi people despise...the list goes on and on. |
I still disagree. Today's "one of" would be pretty far down the list in my book. But if all historians agreed, history would be a science.
Respectfully,
MThey are a bit careless about the rest of the world.Most of the highschool students have poor general knowledge than any other country peers.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
1. he US supported a people fighting for their freedom from the Iron Curtin through Pakistan's ISI. Al Quaeda came out of the Afghan Arabs, a foreign group including Bin Ladin. So no, they didn't 'create' the 'terrorist.' If you know the history and understanding, you would realize this decision would seem necessary to stave off an expansionist HUGE dictatorship. Thank whatever god you believe in for that because you wouldn't be aloud to if the USSR absorbed your country. When the next expansionist empire emerges hopefully there will be an entity like to US to rescue the world again.
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Americans like to do their work differently. They like to rule countries through puppets. The USSR did it through the old ideas of colonolism. However way they do it, they are both perceived as Imperial powers.
You should know, that terrorism cannot exist if it doesn't breed, just like anyother organism. American provided the breeding ground for Terrorists to breed. They provided the arms, the money, the intelligence, and with the situation in Israel, the fuel for their hate.
Secondly, give me the definition of terrorism in the eyes of America? You are saying it was perfectly acceptable to fund these groups in Aghanistan to carry out missions that are almost no different to the ones in Iraq. Why are not the Iraq resistance group against Americans not be seen in the same light as the Afghan resistance group againt Russians?
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
2. Poor ignorant people fuel Islamic fundamentalism, and true, dictatorships produce poor ignorant people - it's a necessary mechanism to keep the people's minds on their stomachs and not on their leadership. You can blame the US for dictatorships. The US has supported those who would support world stability, sadly, not all of these supporters have the same values as the US.
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The dictatorships America has supported are ones that promote not world or regional stability, but rather financial benefits for America.
How can you ever have democracy if you do not give the Arab world a free press? The corrupt SAudi king is only hanging to his throne because of America: he is hated by the people.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
3. Yes, look at Palestine. Everybody look. They are Arabs and the Israelis are Jews. The US supports Israel so it must be supporting the Zionist Empire that wants to take over the world and kill all the Arabs....
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I think you have lost it here. The zionists only want from the river of egypt (nile) to river of euphrates (iraq/turkey).. only
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
US supports Israel because it is friendly to the US and all its neighbors proclaim they plan to destroy it.
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Incorrect. Egypt and Jordan dont want to destroy it. Nor does Iran (the wipe Israel off the map is a pro-zionist lie)
There is a difference between recognising Israels right to exist and wanting to destroy Israel.
Israels existence with todays borders and apartheid wall, both go against International Law.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
Are you saying that if the US let Israel be massacred the fundamentalists would let up? Israel deals poorly with Palestine but that is a whole mess the US can't be blamed for. The allies put Israel together after WWII. Blame the US if you want. It's popular. Anything but taking responsibility yourself and teaching your children not to blow themselves up an seek a rational solution and choose non-fanatic leader to bring them out of oppression. That's how the other oppressed people have done it.
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Israel is massacring Palestinians not the other way round. The Palestinians are a resistance people, fighting for the freedom of Palestine. It is Israel that is violating International Law not Palestine. Israel is taking Palestinian land not Palestine taking Israeli land. You should remember that.
The UN partition of 1947 gave 1/3 of the land to Jews, and the rest to Arabs. However only 7% of land ownership was Jewish at the time. Both sides rejected it, and now we see 2/3 of land Jewisha and the rest Arab. Both the parition of 1948 and now, are both unjust towards the Palestinian people who lived on the land for centuries and commited no crime before 1918 against Jews.
Now on the situation on teching children not to blow themselves up. Tell me what the rational solution is? How can Palestinians ahve their land back? If the Palestinians stopped all resistence activities, there would be no Palestine. The Apertheid wall Israel is building (which is illegal), mutes the voices of the Palestinian children. They cannot see beyond the cage Israel has forced them into- its liek a holocaust. This is not like the United States, where people like Martin Luther King can demostrate peacefully and get some sort of freedom for Blacks. This is Israel occupied Palestine. The International Press rarely covers the truth behind what is really going on: that is Israel has massacred more Women and CHildren than the Palestinian "terrorists" have of Israeli Womena nd Children. In such sitations as in Palestine (and also like in South Africa), you don't have democracy, you dont have human rights, here you have a Jewish state created exclusively for the Jewish people. Resistence must take form of violence. Thats what wins independance, the situation is nothing like in the West. If peaceful demostrations where employed, we will have teh situation of American peace activist Rachel Currie who was trodden to death by an Israeli bulldozer an hourly occurance.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
Is it different? Does Europe HATE the US? If they do they do a poor job of showing it. We still trade. It's just fear and disappointment. The difference is communication and global trade. Yes, people on the other side of the world hated 1914 Germany. That's why people from all over the globe converged in France to fight the Germans. Everyone communicates and trades with the US so everyone gets upset when their not looking great.
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Like I said, 10% of American oil is from Venezuela. You are still trading fine. Are you/they loved?
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
I would never judge public opinion on protesters. Comfortable people protest any war they don't understand and there are a lot more comfortable people now. The Iraqi invasion looks like a mistake because it is costly. If it wasn't costly, lives, and had gone smooth putting up a democracy in a year, no one would be complaining. Regardless, Sadam caused the invasion by not showing that he had no WMD, of course he didn't want to show that because he was afraid or Iran.... Someone had to move. If the US didn't, they would have looked incapable. Sadam couldn't move or he would.
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nevertheless,, the largest demonstration in London. Tht says something. Blair also resigned, that says another. bush lowest confidence vote is a third.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
I seriously doubt your %60. More likely %99.999999 would rather their children go to school and their wives have food to buy. They're just afraid of open support because of the fundamentalists. Soon, hopefully, if things continue as they are, the Iraqi economy will grow, the people will choose rational leaders, and their country will flourish - that's the goal. Every one's best interests.
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loll.. things to continue how they are and the Iraqi economy will grow? Do you know the unemployment figures? Its worse than Saddams period. Do you know the number of deaths? It is also worse than Saddams period. If things conitnue how they are, it would make Saddams era a success story.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
We're not talking about friendship, we're talking about HATE. US companies continued trading with Germany in the beginning of the war, before it grew into a global war. France and Germany had been at each other for a thousand years before that.
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Doesn't Chavez HATE Bush or even Bush HATE Chavez?
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
Japan forgive? How cut.... Do you have any idea what Japan did to Asia?
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Of course, the situation in China for instance. But that didnt leave generations after it affected as much as the mushroom cloud did.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
If your not worried why should I? You know what happens in the type of recession the US is facing? Fewer Christman presents, low SUV sales, less eating out.... No body starves. I'm not sure what you problem is with US oil agreements. Do you WANT oil to |