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I have always wondered...

 


roxys_art
Note: I want to make something perfectly clear before typing out the rest of this post. My intent of this post is not to poke fun at Christianity, prove it wrong, or anything else that may be seen as malicious. I am not being sarcastic when I am asking questions, I am simply curious as to how Christians, or those who know a great deal about Christianity, will say. I am not anti-Christian (or anti-religion for that matter) either. Please keep this in mind while reading the rest of this post and respond accordingly...

According to John 3:16, "...For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Now this just confuses me on many different levels. First, if God made the Universe and everything in it, why couldn't he just say that everyone's sins have been forgiven, and nobody needs to die on the cross? I mean, if he has the ability to control everything (which to me is evident, since he did create it), why didn't he save his son from being killed?

Secondly, most everyone knows that Jesus is God's son. God loved the world so much that he had his son sacrificed on the cross for the sins of mankind? Doesn't this seem kind of backwards to anyone else? I mean, to me if someone had to be sacrificed for the sins of mankind, why wouldn't God do it himself? I know most fathers would gladly die to save their son (daughter too...but in this case, son), so why didn't God? When I become a father, I know I would gladly give my life to save my kid's life.

Any input is appreciated.

Thank you in advance.
brokenadvice
I would like to answer the first one. God wants us to love him, he does not want some mindless zombies to robotically "love". In order for us to love him, we need to be able to choose to love/hate/be apathetic about him. God created free will so that we could love him by deciding that we do (if that makes sense). Because of this free will, Adam and Eve chose to sin. Because of this, God needed some way to forgive us. That is why He gave up his son to die for our sins.
Aredon
Quote:
Secondly, most everyone knows that Jesus is God's son. God loved the world so much that he had his son sacrificed on the cross for the sins of mankind? Doesn't this seem kind of backwards to anyone else? I mean, to me if someone had to be sacrificed for the sins of mankind, why wouldn't God do it himself? I know most fathers would gladly die to save their son (daughter too...but in this case, son), so why didn't God? When I become a father, I know I would gladly give my life to save my kid's life.

The answer to this is both complicated and simple at the same time. Generaly speaking, Jesus was the son of God. However, Jesus was also God in human form. In human terms we see a son as being a seperate person entirely, but Christ was both seperate and a part of the whole (aka Trinity). So to answer your question, God DID step down and do it himself.

Also, the dynamics here are slightly different. If you gave your son knowing he would rise again; that could change your reaction a small amount. Just a thought Wink
roxys_art
Aredon wrote:
Also, the dynamics here are slightly different. If you gave your son knowing he would rise again; that could change your reaction a small amount. Just a thought Wink


I am afraid it doesn't change my original thoughts. Even though my son/daughter would rise again, I would not want to put them through all of that suffering. It just seems extremely cold and unloving to me.

Just my opinion though.
WhistleTurning
Jesus is also part of the Jewish faith in so far as He was the Messiah (although the Jews did not and still do not believe Him to be so , only a prophet), and so those that believed in Him would inherit the Kingdom. Also in the Jewish faith sacrifices are abundant, especially for various sins, and to relieve mankind of the necessity of sacrificing, Jesus became the supreme sacrifice by dying for all our sins. However for those who then think every sin in paid for and they can go ahead with abandon, forget it, as a believer in Christ you strive not to sin(that is the way to everlasting life), so try very hard to walk the straight pathway through life.

Bit simplistic but tried to be brief!!
coeus
Your first question was answered with the no midless zombie love, but God wants real love, and thus it must be chosen, hence free will and ability to choose between Love of God and Sin.

Your second one was also answered but I wanted to add a little more.

"Greater love has no one than this, that one (B)lay down his life for his friends."
John 15:13

By the first answer you should realize that the point of life is to show God that we do actually love Him. But what's love but a two way thing. God sent his son to die because as the above passage states (and so should your logic and reason) greatest form of love is to lay down your life for a friend. So, God showed us His love by His death. Thus we show our love by giving up our lives in service to Him.

In OT (old testament) times people showed thier love by sacrafices (ex. Lambs blood). This was a sign of love because usually the sacrafice was soemthing important to you, not just any lamb, but your best lamb, something worth a lot to you. NT (new testament) now describes Jesus as the "Lamb of God" the ultimate sacrafice.

Hope that helps a little bit, and I do appreciate your kindness and sincerity in your question, most people bash away and never really listen to any answers. Sadly I must report that is a trend on both sides of the christianity debate. I wish more of my Christian "brothers and sisters" would actually read the bible rather then join in the bashing.
Jinx
I have to wonder why sacrifice is necessary at all?

Hypothetical situation: Your best friend lies to you. Later he or she comes to you and says they are sorry and asks for your forgiveness. Do you require that friend to make a sacrifice before you forgive them? "Well, I can see that you are honestly sorry for what you did, but before you can be my friend again you have to donate your car to charity."

Makes no sense to me. You either accept the apology, or you don't.

Why would God need you to go out and kill lamb before he accepts that you are sorry for whatever it was you did? Can't he tell whether or not you really mean it without an animal having to die?
brokenadvice
Time for another post. In my earlier post I mentioned that Adam and Eve were in the garden all hunky dory. Then they (man) sinned by free will. Because God created free will, he needed man to redeem itself. That is why Jesus (a man born without spot or blemish [which is to say sin]) had to do the redeeming, and God (not human) could not do it.
jharsika
My interpretation is that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was more a physical manifestation, or symbol, of God's love. Anne Rice's idea was that it was just a way to get things rolling and get a bunch of followers/believers. Sort of an affirmation of God's existance.

Jinx wrote:
Why would God need you to go out and kill lamb before he accepts that you are sorry for whatever it was you did? Can't he tell whether or not you really mean it without an animal having to die?


Technically God wasn't asking for anyone to sacrifice anything, he is the one who sacrificed himself. And because it would have been Jesus Christ's purpose and fate, it wouldn't really matter if he died.
coeus
Jinx wrote:
I have to wonder why sacrifice is necessary at all?...Makes no sense to me. You either accept the apology, or you don't...Can't he tell whether or not you really mean it without an animal having to die?


Sacrafice has been a way to show affection, love and submission to a person/being higher then yourself. People sacrafice things all the time...money, time etc. In biblical times what was valuable was whatever your trade was. Not sure if there was a lot of money floating around, or any money at all. I am willing to bet most people bartered with goods and services. So a sacrafice for them would be animals (goods/money) they own.

In the eyes of Christians you arn't just sacraficing something for an appology for sinning, for you realize that sin is greater then a simple transgression. Thus you would do anything you thought possible to save yourself from well...youself. The idea being that humans are horrible creatures hell-bent on going against Gods grain. This is an idea that i wouldn't expect a non-Christian to fully grasp, understand or even want to understand.
loyal
Peace be upon you.

I do not have the time to reply to any post at the moment, but i'll be able to reply to new posts.

I support the original argument which was God could have easily used His Power to forgive sins without sending an innocent man to die in a very painful method.

I expanded on this in a rebuttal a few weeks ago. The argument is quoted below and aimed at Christians. No offence is intended.

:

source: http://www.islamhope.net/carm/greater-love.shtml wrote:

I have read and been told;
"Jesus dying on the cross is a demonstration of how much God loves us. God wants us to see that, by sacrificing Jesus on the cross, it is a demonstration of His love."


This has been a puzzle to me and I would like to ask you "how"?

How does allowing someone to die demonstrate the greatest love?
1) i) Didn't Jesus cry and beg to be saved according to the Bible.
"About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" {Matthew 27:46}
If I had the power to save someone who was bleeding, crying, praying and begging to me to save him or her, I would save them. Not to save them would prove I was heartless, to save them would show I have Mercy, let alone love.
Not saving Jesus only demonstrates God does not listen to our prayers, does not have mercy, not even to his prophet according to the Bible.
Not to mention discrediting his prophethood to millions of Jews past, present, and future.
Please be logical in your explanation and kindly keep in mind that God is All Powerful and does not need "blood" to forgive sins.
ii) Another question to consider in your reply, if Jesus's intention was to be a sacrifice, why would he "Beg" and "Pray" to God to be saved, and if your answer is that Jesus had a moment of weakness, than why say Jesus is God, seeing many Christians say "Jesus is God in human form", because Jesus had the power to heal and raise people from the dead and walk on water, why then is Jesus at this moment helpless and powerless and most of all, not wanting to be sacrificed?

iii) According to Matthew 7:7-11, Matthew 18:19, Matthew 21:22, Matthew 26:39, Luke 11:9-13, Mark 14:36, and Luke 22:42, whatever a true believer asks, God will do. Jesus cried out to be saved, and was not saved. Does this mean God has lied? Or does this mean God is not as Merciful, not as Loving, not as Forgiving, as you, makes Him out to be? Why was Jesus not saved? Or is Jesus not a true believer? In which case, WHO IS?

God killed Jesus in the Crucifixion when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins.

2) If I were in a room full of people and there was one person singled out to be sacrificed so all the other people in the room could be saved, wouldn't the loving thing be not sacrifice at all. Wouldn't the loving thing be to just forgive?


Understand that: If your sin is as large as a mountain, God Created the Mountains and can remove them as well.
If your sin is as deep as the Sea, God Created All the Seas in this world and the Universe and can remove them too, God loves and could have saved Jesus.

God is All-Powerful, so He has the ability to do something other than the crucifixition. God is All-Knowing, so He could have thought of a different way of forgiveness, instead of painfully crucifying an innocent man.

But instead, God let Jesus suffer a slow, cruel, excruciatingly painful, and totally unnecessary death.

3) Deuteronomy 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin."

God let a human being suffer. That means God let a human being suffer torture, instead of using His Power and All-Knowingness to find another way to solve 'the problem' (some say sins...some say the original sin) without torturing people.

Could God really choose to let someone suffer instead of saving them? No.

According to the Christian doctrine, Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Every human is born with sins, or all humans will eventually sin, and therefore it was necessary that someone as pure as Jesus would be crucified to nullify these sins. The question is; why does anyone have to die for our sins when God, the all merciful, could as easily grant us forgiveness if we asked for it? Why does He have to make someone suffer for our sins or for someone else's sins? Isn't that unjust of Him? According to the Bible the way to redemption could be obtained without the need for sacrifice. The Bible says:


Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


Clearly the soul that sins shall die. Clearly, no one shall bear the iniquity (sins) of others. So Jesus cannot bear the sins of others either. If one is righteous then it shall be upon him, and if one commits a sin then it shall be upon him, and not on Jesus. Thus there is no original sin from Adam and Eve. Each soul shall bear its punishment.

The way to repentance and forgiveness is by turning from all sins, doing what is right, and keeping the commandments.

Also we see the same message given by Solomon. He says in the book of Ecclesiastes 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." This is the whole message, and this is the conclusion of messages. It is that one should fear God, keep His commandments, and nothing else.
Again in II Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land" This clearly states that to seek forgiveness from God we have to humble ourselves, pray, seek God, and turn away from wickedness.
Finally the Bible says in I Samuel 15:22 "And Samuel said Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." This clearly states that obeying God is better than sacrifice whether this sacrifice is of objects, animals, or humans, or any other type. What God likes is for us to heed and obey Him, and if that is what God likes then it is not of Him to come later and change His mind and His ways.

So which is right? Is it the Christian doctrine of the crucifixition? Or is the Old Testament which says that God will never sacrifice one person for another or that God will never put one person's sins on another?

4) (Directed only at some Christians): Some Christians believe that Jesus took all the sins of the world on himself. (God says in Genesis, because Adam sinned, he willl die. And so, these Christians claim that Jesus took all the sins of the world, and that is why he died). If Jesus took these sins on himself, does this mean that Jesus, who carm.org believes to be 100% God and 100% human, has sinned? Does this mean that God sinned? Is God guilty of stealing, committing adultery, and lying? Is God guilty of making idols and worshipping them?

5) The Bible says sacrifice is not mercy:

Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

The fact that the speaker desires mercy not sacrifice, means mercy is not sacrifice.



I repeat in conclusion:

If I were in a room full of people and there was one person singled out to be sacrificed so all the other people in the room could be saved, wouldn't the loving thing be not sacrifice at all.

Understand that if your sin is as large as a mountain, God Created the Mountains and can remove them as well.
If your sin is as deep as the Sea, God Created All the Seas in this world and the Universe and can remove them too, God loves and could have saved Jesus.
coeus
Peace be upon you as well. Here are my answers.

----

Cry on the cross:

On the cross Jesus was shouting out the First line to Psalm 22. In those days people knew psalms by their first line, not numbers as they hadn't numbered them. So instead of saying "Psalm 22!" He said the first line "My God, My God, Why has thou forsaken me?" The intent to remind people that he was fulfilling that psalm in front of their very eyes. This site explains it. (it also tells of the details between the psalm and the crucifiction, the piercing, the selling of clothes, the drinking of liquid...etc)

I don't know if you are familiar with crucifiction but it would have been incrediably hard to speak for long periods of time after you have been up there for several hours. So I am pretty sure he wouldn't have been able to say the entire psalm. Also take in the fact that Jesus spoke in parables and riddles. Given those two aspects if he wanted to remind people of psalm 22 he would just simply say the first line...which is what he did.

----

Jesus being saved:

He was saved 3 days later when he rose from the dead. One point of his life was to take our sins, so he did...for 3 days in hell he did. Then he was saved.

There is more to it then "Wouldn't the loving thing be to just forgive?". The point of Jesus wasn't JUST to forgive sins. "For God so loved the world..." (John 3:16) Jesus's death was to show God's love for us "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13).

----

Deuteronomy 24:16, Ezekiel 18:20

These verses were taken out of context, they are in referance to average normal humans being responsible for their own sins, that fathers and sons couldn't bare each others sins. These were fathers and sons, not referencing God and Jesus. Jesus is the one sacrafice that can bare other peoples sins.

----

Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy(loyalty), not sacrifice

Verse taken not out of context but rather the context warped somewhat. God says sacrafices are for the cleansing of sins(Leviticus 4:35; 5:10) However Hosea 6 is about God's people having the wrong idea. The people would make a sacrafice then go out and sin like crazy. Rinse and repeat this process. This is evident in Hosea 6:4 "What shall I do with you, O Judah? For your loyalty is like a morning cloud And like the dew which goes away early." He is letting them know that look, I don't want your sacrafice if you are not loyal to Me. I don't want your burnt offering if you do not know Me.
Eyvind
coeus wrote:
Sacrafice has been a way to show affection, love and submission to a person/being higher then yourself.


I've also heard it said that sacrifice is "purifying". In addition to showing affection for the deity it could be a way to cleanse the "inner sacred space".

Take care,
Eyvind
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