This week marks the ten-year anniversary of the death of Mother Theresa, a shining example of good works toward mankind and an icon of Christians everywhere. Many may be surprised, however, to learn that this venerable woman in fact lost her faith in the Christian god long ago.
Read or listen to the story. Note: Doubted her faith, not lost it. Not exactly a surprise, as everyone loses their faith. And definitely not a major surprise considering where she was at the time...
HM
| HereticMonkey wrote: |
| Note: Doubted her faith, not lost it. Not exactly a surprise, as everyone loses their faith. And definitely not a major surprise considering where she was at the time... |
Good catch. There is a considerable difference between doubted and lost. To clear this up with specificity:
In Mother Theresa's own words, the spiritual bliss that she identified as a unity with Jesus seemed to vanish suddenly without her prompting. Unlike a (perhaps) more common scenario wherein a religious person develops educated doubts about the truth of their doctrine and thereby comes to doubt the entire faith, Mother Theresa seemed to suddenly lose her personal harmony with the Christian god, and thereafter developed doubts about the existence of that very god and associated doctrine. Also, please note that she never resumed a pattern of sincere belief, suggesting that her faith (or at least, the degree to which it was effective in her life) was never restored, ergo, "lost."As per the story: "She died with her doubts". Even though she may have stopped praying, she did nonetheless still believe...she just had some serious doubts about her faith, and what it meant to her. In essence, I'm not understanding how you figure something that that she questioned she lost. After all, how can you lose something that you still question?
HM
| quex wrote: |
| This week marks the ten-year anniversary of the death of Mother Theresa, a shining example of good works toward mankind and an icon of Christians everywhere. Many may be surprised, however, to learn that this venerable woman in fact lost her faith in the Christian god long ago. |
If one allows that Mother Teresa did good work, then her case is a pretty bold example of the argument that faith is not what makes people do good work. It seems that it was her hope that there must be a reason to do those works - even in the face of her lack of faith - that drove her. And if that's the case, then the argument that faith is required to do good works is bunk. All one needs is the hope that there is some purpose to the good work.
Still, a number of things about the whole affair trouble me (but then, that's hardly a new thing - many aspects of Mother Teresa has troubled me for years).
For starters, believers are painting her as "heroic", for labouring on for the faith despite the absence of faith herself. Am i the only one who finds that... backwards? A heroic person would have confronted their doubts openly, not buried them (and Mother Teresa did try to have her doubts buried, perhaps under the assumption that they would ruin her posthumous bid for sainthood). A heroic person would have had the courage to say publicly that they were unsure of cause they were working for. In my mind, a person that doubts the truth of the cause they're fighting for... but continues to publicly fight wholeheartedly for it anyway... that person is a coward. | Indi wrote: |
| If one allows that Mother Teresa did good work, then her case is a pretty bold example of the argument that faith is not what makes people do good work. It seems that it was her hope that there must be a reason to do those works - even in the face of her lack of faith - that drove her. And if that's the case, then the argument that faith is required to do good works is bunk. All one needs is the hope that there is some purpose to the good work. |
I wholly agree, and I am so glad to hear someone else come to this same conclusion.
| Quote: |
| For starters, believers are painting her as "heroic", for labouring on for the faith despite the absence of faith herself. Am i the only one who finds that... backwards? |
You're not alone. I agree, it's silly when you take a good look at it, but we might have different reasons for thinking so. Rather than a question of heroism and cowardice, I am disturbed to think that the believers are spinning the situation to continue their adoration of the woman. Having lost (and never re-establishing) her conviction in the existence of the Christian god, Mother Theresa technically died as a sinner in accordance to the Vatican interpretation of the Catholic church's scrip, whether or not she continued her good work. However, to admit this now would be a blow to the church on a political level. Mother Theresa's actions did so much to increase public trust and adoration of the Catholic establishment -- how would her sudden expulsion from the ranks of the most blessed be interpreted by those who idolize her?It's natural to doubt and to question, you only learn if you ask questions.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| It's natural to doubt and to question, you only learn if you ask questions. |
Yes! Precisely. What do you feel the lesson to be learned in this case is? | quex wrote: |
This week marks the ten-year anniversary of the death of Mother Theresa, a shining example of good works toward mankind and an icon of Christians everywhere. Many may be surprised, however, to learn that this venerable woman in fact lost her faith in the Christian god long ago.
Read or listen to the story. |
She was never a truly good person anyway. If you search hard enough you can find some stories about her that will shock you. Like for example my RE teacher told me last year that theresea always used to travel first class (in trains).
Some food for thought.
may God bless you. | loyal wrote: |
| She was never a truly good person anyway. If you search hard enough you can find some stories about her that will shock you. Like for example my RE teacher told me last year that theresea always used to travel first class (in trains). |
Ouch. Well, nobody's perfect... but calling someone a bad person for traveling first class on a train seems a little harsh to me... Gandhi beat his wife, and Martin Luther King Jr. committed adultery, but that doesn't negate the good that they accomplished.
Also, a quick note about trains in India -- first class is often the only safe ticket on long-distance trains. The basic fare ticket isn't enough to guarantee that you will even be able to board the inside of the train. Many people sit on the roof or cling to the outside while the train is in motion. The lucky ones squeeze inside, packed together closely, where elderly or infirm people have been known to die of suffocation.Mother Theresa as Human as she is has also doubts and fears. It is the nature of the flesh. That is why we have spirit who guide and let us know what is right and not right. We have deep longing coz we don't see him coz we refuse or we don't know where He is. It is only in believing that we see him.
As far as I know, everyone loses their faith at some point, whether it be because of death, misfortune... etc.
| teknotom wrote: |
| As far as I know, everyone loses their faith at some point, whether it be because of death, misfortune... etc. |
That's not really the issue. The issue is what do you do when you lose your faith?
Do you:
a.) Openly and honestly admit to the general public that you have lost your faith, and perhaps go about about trying to find some way to find it again?
b.) Publicly lie about your devotion, fake the motions of your faith, push all of the agendas attached to the faith you no longer believe in (for example, speaking against birth control), and then attempt to destroy any evidence of your uncertainty about your faith so that you may be secured a place in history?
We all know which path Mother Teresa chose to take.
Was she right? | Indi wrote: |
| teknotom wrote: | | As far as I know, everyone loses their faith at some point, whether it be because of death, misfortune... etc. |
That's not really the issue. The issue is what do you do when you lose your faith?
Do you:
a.) Openly and honestly admit to the general public that you have lost your faith, and perhaps go about about trying to find some way to find it again?
b.) Publicly lie about your devotion, fake the motions of your faith, push all of the agendas attached to the faith you no longer believe in (for example, speaking against birth control), and then attempt to destroy any evidence of your uncertainty about your faith so that you may be secured a place in history?
We all know which path Mother Teresa chose to take.
Was she right? |
You and your faith argument. *sigh* I just hope that this time you can argue with some kindness, rather than bashing everyone you feel is inferior to you. People who "lack competent reading skills" and whatever else, perhaps you should take a step down and make it understandable rather than hurling insults (just a thought). To clarify I'm actually directing this from other posts of yours that I read today, and am not incinuating that you've thrown any insults in this thread.
As previously stated, she did not lose her faith, she doubted it, which is normal. In the catholic faith there is a specific word for it, but off the top of my head I can't recall. Something about night or darkness or something... Anyway, in general Christians will always have a time in their lives when their faith feels week or they feel distant or detached from God. Its a test to see if your driving force is God or not. What made this woman so special, was that her period of doubt lasted nearly 50 years, and she continued to do what she believed God wanted her to do. Her faith was week, not gone entirely. It was her test, I'm sure after 20 years or so my doubts would get the best of me, but she continued believing. Which is the primary reason she's being considered for sainthood.
She didn't lie about her devotion, she was still completely devoted to God. She just didn't feel like it was bringing her any closer to him. She didn't lie about her faith either, she just kept her private worries.. private... which... I would say is perfectly acceptable. | Aredon wrote: |
| You and your faith argument. *sigh* |
My previous discussion of faith was about belief without evidence or reason (definition 2). This discussion is about religious faith (could be definition 3, 4, 5 or 6, although i specifically mean 5). They are two very different things. Try to keep the difference straight.
| Aredon wrote: |
| I just hope that this time you can argue with some kindness, rather than bashing everyone you feel is inferior to you. People who "lack competent reading skills" and whatever else, perhaps you should take a step down and make it understandable rather than hurling insults (just a thought). |
Excuse me?
| Aredon wrote: |
| To clarify I'm actually directing this from other posts of yours that I read today, and am not incinuating that you've thrown any insults in this thread. |
Well let me "clarify", too. Why don't you stop "incinuating" (sp) anything. If you have a problem with me or some post i made, either take it up with me personally or talk to a moderator. There is absolutely no reason to go spreading your bad attitude toward me all over Frihost.
| Aredon wrote: |
As previously stated, she did not lose her faith, she doubted it, which is normal. In the catholic faith there is a specific word for it, but off the top of my head I can't recall. Something about night or darkness or something... Anyway, in general Christians will always have a time in their lives when their faith feels week or they feel distant or detached from God. Its a test to see if your driving force is God or not. What made this woman so special, was that her period of doubt lasted nearly 50 years, and she continued to do what she believed God wanted her to do. Her faith was week, not gone entirely. It was her test, I'm sure after 20 years or so my doubts would get the best of me, but she continued believing. Which is the primary reason she's being considered for sainthood.
She didn't lie about her devotion, she was still completely devoted to God. She just didn't feel like it was bringing her any closer to him. She didn't lie about her faith either, she just kept her private worries.. private... which... I would say is perfectly acceptable. |
If you read Mother Teresa's writings, she makes it quite clear that she did lose her faith. She was not "completely devoted to God" as you claim - in fact, she wrote that she doubted that God even existed. It is very explicit in what she wrote - and you might try reading what she wrote before concluding what she believed. i did.
The article linked in the first post makes it explicitly clear that Mother Teresa felt that she might be acting like a hypocrite by continuing her actions in the face of her doubts. i didn't make that determination, she did. Yet she buried her doubts and continued to push the agenda of her religion. Is it moral to try to make people do X - especially when X causes suffering - when you believe there may be no real reason to make them do X? Of course not. It's just plain wrong.
