Someone says that Japanese comes from Chinese, because many words are really similar.
such as
あ（pronounced "a"） 安（pronounced "an"）
い （pronouced "i"）以（pronounced "yi"）
ぬ （pronouced "nu"）奴（pronouced "nu"）
not only the hand-writing, but also the pronouciation is almost the same.
But I don't think that japanese comes from chinese, there are more diffrences between then.
They're part of the Altaic language family, so they should be similar to eachother to a certain extent, even though they've developed very differently, just like German, Dutch, and English - each have words similar to eachother and have very similar conventions in grammar, but none of them are completely the same. They are part of the Germanic subfamily of the Indo-European family of langauges, which include Spanish, Greek, and Russian. Differences between these languages are even greater, yet still you can still see relation.
Chinese itself can be considered a langauge family due to how dramatically different some of it's dialects are. It's a subject of question, however.
The question in language is not what language comes from what language, but how it stemmed from the proto-language. A long time ago, before writing, the Koreans, Vietnamese, Japanese and the Chinese spoke the same language, but as their tribes moved away from eachother, their language slowly changed until both of them were different enough to the point where a Chinaman could not understand a Japaneseman in everyday conversation.
I think they all stem from the same origin, just as many languages can trace its roots back to Latin. It's not only Japanese though, Korean also has a lot of words that are extremely similar or exactly like words in Chinese.
among languages of the nations who live near to each other,similarity is very common.
turkish,arabic and persian languages also are very different but they have thousands of similar words.
-one of my turkish friend studied university in japan and he told me gramaticaly turkish and japan languages are very similar to each other.he learnt japan in one year very easily.
A Chinese man can communicate with a Japanese man with writing characters, but not speaking. The most famous Chinese revolutionist Sun-Zhong-Shan has practiced this method with his Japaness friend.
When I learn Japanese, my teacher says most Japaness word keeps a pronunciation of Tang Dynasty(618-907) which is not same as Chinese man speak today, but it's very similar.
The reason is Japanese send a lot of student to Chinese from year 618 to year 907.
Similar language comes from intercommunion.
| {name here} wrote: |
They're part of the Altaic language family,
....
A long time ago, before writing, the Koreans, Vietnamese, Japanese and the Chinese spoke the same language |
Actually, I didn't feel like replying in that other thread where you said similar things just to tell you this but, Han Chinese (which is the national language of China, and it includes the various dialects of it such as Mandarin, Cantonese, etc) does not belong in the Altaic family. The three main branches of Altaic are Mongolian. Turkic, and Manchu-Tungus. And whether Japanese and Korean belong to it is still under debate and research.
Secondly, there has been no evidence that they all spoke the same language way back in history. People can speculate, and some do believe that Japanese and Korean came from the same language due to the numerous structural similarities, but even that is still that, rough theories.
| applejunk wrote: |
| I think they all stem from the same origin, just as many languages can trace its roots back to Latin. It's not only Japanese though, Korean also has a lot of words that are extremely similar or exactly like words in Chinese. |
The similarities between Japanese and Korean, as mentioned above, some believe to be because they came from the same language, although, the similarities between Chinese and those two (mostly in words, not grammar structures, the Chinese language's structure is very different from that of Japanese) are mostly due to the fact that all of them shared the same overarching elite culture of the ancient Chinese script. Which words from there, and other types of "inter-communication" as faund put it, seeped into the popular culture and became everyday words. (Just as certain similar words in the Indo-European languages look similar and how they came down from Greek or Latin, which was European's elite culture).
| faund wrote: |
| A Chinese man can communicate with a Japanese man with writing characters, but not speaking. The most famous Chinese revolutionist Sun-Zhong-Shan has practiced this method with his Japaness friend. |
That might have been correct further back into history (where the elites of East Asia could read essentially unaltered ancient Chinese script, and would have no problem communicating with), it is not so much so now. (Even Sun Zhong San's time and test was from almost a century ago.) Sure you might still be able to get some ideas across with Chinese characters, but the changes (Japanese's self invented/changed "Chinese" characters, different meaning usages for the same characters, etc) are too great for really effective communication now.Ah, yes, it's a sinitic language, and Vietnamese is a Austro-Asiatic. My bad.
| Quote: |
| Secondly, there has been no evidence that they all spoke the same language way back in history. People can speculate, and some do believe that Japanese and Korean came from the same language due to the numerous structural similarities, but even that is still that, rough theories. |
As long as it isn't a hypothesis, I wouldn't rule it out. If it's enough to call it a theory, then there is some evidence to back it. Comparing phonetics, I would say it's reasonable to suggest that they come from the same tree - they remind me of similarities with Polish and German - they're dramatically different in many areas but some words overlap and sound similar, though, this, of course, could just be some influence. | {name here} wrote: |
As long as it isn't a hypothesis, I wouldn't rule it out. If it's enough to call it a theory, then there is some evidence to back it. Comparing phonetics, I would say it's reasonable to suggest that they come from the same tree - they remind me of similarities with Polish and German - they're dramatically different in many areas but some words overlap and sound similar, though, this, of course, could just be some influence. |
Actually, it is partially a miswording on my part. I don't know if it is officially considered a theory or is it still in the hypothesis stage, since most of the "proof" for it lies in the grammatical similarities that others believe to be purely due to sprachbund. As to really how much proof they have for this idea, I do not know, since most of what I've read either did not label it as either, or almost used the 2 words for this idea almost interchangeably (somewhat understandable since this idea really is borderline, and believers of either side usually take the wording they prefer).
Anyhow, the reason why I worded it as "rough theory" is because after I've come into contact with both languages in various degrees, I actually do believe there might be truths in the belief that Korean and Japanese might somehow be related, although I will retain some doubt until I find out more.
As for the phonetics of the languages and their relations, I'll have to say I disagree with you on this, since except for some words that sound similar, which I believe it to be roughly the result of the leak of elite culture classical Chinese words into regular languages throughout history on top of the languages' influences on each other, Korean and Japanese really do sound different, at least different enough to make me doubt their qualifications as proof of their relativity.
Anyhow, my main point was that Chinese, even though its influences can still be felt in those 2 languages, should not be confused to have been derived from the same root, unless people discover more evidence that says otherwise in the future. But, as I mentioned above, I do think there are if not some merits to linking Korean and Japanese together to a degree.there are so many Kanjis ( Chinese Characters ) in Japanese. There were much more before, but the japanese government ban many now, which are not common. i do think Japanese is originally from Chinese, Korean too. There is a legend that Japanese people were come from the ancient China of Tang Dynasty. If that's trure, then those people brought the language to Japan Island as well.
| Code: |
| "applejunk" I think they all stem from the same origin, just as many languages can trace its roots back to Latin. It's not only Japanese though, Korean also has a lot of words that are extremely similar or exactly like words in Chinese. |
Korean？！In the past Korean really used Chinese words. But the pronunciation is defferent. Since one of the Korean King invented the Korean letters, Chinese was used less often. Now, Korean do not use Chinese wOrds at all. And Korean letters are quite different Chinese words. | takashiro wrote: |
| Code: | | "applejunk" I think they all stem from the same origin, just as many languages can trace its roots back to Latin. It's not only Japanese though, Korean also has a lot of words that are extremely similar or exactly like words in Chinese. |
Korean？！In the past Korean really used Chinese words. But the pronunciation is defferent. Since one of the Korean King invented the Korean letters, Chinese was used less often. Now, Korean do not use Chinese wOrds at all. And Korean letters are quite different Chinese words. |
first of all, I'm half korean..so I think I would know what I'm talking about >< Haven't you ever heard the Korean number system? There are two different ways of counting in korean, and one of the ways is based off the chinese numbers. second, koreans still do use chinese words. gong joo which means princess in chinese means exactly the same thing in korean and its pronounced the same way. there are a lot more words like that in korean which correspond almost exactly to the same meaning in chinese.
finally, i didn't say korean letters are the same as chinese. i said korean words. there's a difference there. if you would like to argue with my korean friends feel free to. | applejunk wrote: |
| takashiro wrote: | | Code: | | "applejunk" I think they all stem from the same origin, just as many languages can trace its roots back to Latin. It's not only Japanese though, Korean also has a lot of words that are extremely similar or exactly like words in Chinese. |
Korean？！In the past Korean really used Chinese words. But the pronunciation is defferent. Since one of the Korean King invented the Korean letters, Chinese was used less often. Now, Korean do not use Chinese wOrds at all. And Korean letters are quite different Chinese words. |
first of all, I'm half korean..so I think I would know what I'm talking about >< Haven't you ever heard the Korean number system? There are two different ways of counting in korean, and one of the ways is based off the chinese numbers. second, koreans still do use chinese words. gong joo which means princess in chinese means exactly the same thing in korean and its pronounced the same way. there are a lot more words like that in korean which correspond almost exactly to the same meaning in chinese.
finally, i didn't say korean letters are the same as chinese. i said korean words. there's a difference there. if you would like to argue with my korean friends feel free to. |
I am not sure Chinese and Korean have simular pronounce, but I do know Korean based on letter words, and Chinese based on charactor, I am not sure how much letters in Korean which like the image of old windows.
When China closed it's door for thousand years , it's difficult to say the simular have big percent, because both Korean and Japaness have advanced by themself in it's own way.I think japanese is a very fun language to learn (トロール 
), and I don't think that Japanese strictly comes from Chinese. 
Japanese vocabulary has been heavily influenced by loans from other languages. 
A vast number of words were borrowed from Chinese, or created from Chinese models. 
The pronunciation of the borrowed Chinese characters in Japanese, Vietnamese and Korean also provide valuable insights. 
Maybe reason of there are few similarity between Japanese and Chinese because fact that they are both from Eastern Asia 
I feel proud while reading what applejunk wrote. It can be inferred that Chinese really effects on many languages. And that's my mother tongue. | windrei wrote: |
| i do think Japanese is originally from Chinese, Korean too. There is a legend that Japanese people were come from the ancient China of Tang Dynasty. If that's trure, then those people brought the language to Japan Island as well. |
From a Linguistic point of view, legends without concrete proof are just that, legends. Like I have previously mentioned, the reason why there are so many similarities are mainly due to the overall influence classical Chinese had on the surrounding civilizations. Like I keep mentioning, a closer look at the structures of the languages needed to be looked at before jumping to the conclusion that, since they all shared usage of Classical Chinese, they must all came from Chinese. (By the way, I am Chinese, even so, I don't think such myths do the other 2 languages justice.)
So, yes, Chinese influence? Undeniable. Chinese Origin? I don't think so.
| takashiro wrote: |
| [code]In the past Korean really used Chinese words. But the pronunciation is defferent. Since one of the Korean King invented the Korean letters, Chinese was used less often. Now, Korean do not use Chinese wOrds at all. And Korean letters are quite different Chinese words. |
One correction. King Sejong created the what is now called Hangeul (Hangul) and it was first published back in 1446. But, just for the record, the imperial court, etc still continued to use Chinese for a long time, and it wasn't until 1894 was it first used in official documents. That's over 400 years since the creation. =P
What Applejunk was talking about were the words, mostly nouns, which were of Chinese origin. Yes Hangul is different from Chinese characters, but as in the word "Karaoke" in English, it is written in the English alphabet isn't it? Different from Japanese writing isn't it?It even sounds different doesn't it? But that is not reason enough to deny the fact that that word came from Japanese. Same logic here. The invention of a new writing system and slight differences in pronunciation of words taken from Chinese cannot completely remove a country's connections to the past, which in term means connection to Classical Chinese. (Many Chinese words became daily used words in Korea, etc etc.)
Depends on what you meant by "Chinese words," if you mean the actual vocabulary, then I've already explained my point of view. If you mean the Chinese characters. Yes, Korean does not use Chinese characters much nowadays, especially the younger generation. But that doesn't mean it is completely flushed out of the country; they can still be seen. One obvious case is for instance, that many Korean people even have a Hanja version of their names.
| faund wrote: |
I am not sure Chinese and Korean have simular pronounce, but I do know Korean based on letter words, and Chinese based on charactor, I am not sure how much letters in Korean which like the image of old windows.
When China closed it's door for thousand years , it's difficult to say the simular have big percent, because both Korean and Japaness have advanced by themself in it's own way. |
Although I can't make complete sense of exactly what you wanted to say but:
Not similar pronunciations in that sense, but in words as I have said, if you've ever come into close enough contact with the 3 main East Asian languages, the similarities in sound of certain words are astonishing. It is rather, if you will, the 2 countries taking Chinese things and using them their way instead of them breaking from Chinese as if they were the "off-springs" thereof.
| applejunk wrote: |
Haven't you ever heard the Korean number system? There are two different ways of counting in korean, and one of the ways is based off the chinese numbers. second, koreans still do use chinese words. gong joo which means princess in chinese means exactly the same thing in korean and its pronounced the same way. there are a lot more words like that in korean which correspond almost exactly to the same meaning in chinese.
finally, i didn't say korean letters are the same as chinese. i said korean words. there's a difference there. if you would like to argue with my korean friends feel free to. |
o.ov the number system is a good example of the leftover influence from the old overarching Classical Chinese. And, I know what you mean with the "gong joo" although they don't sound exactly the same (in mandarin it's "gong zhu") but still, it is similar enough for anyone to admit those 2 words came from the same place. The differences are more so a result of the differences in the sounds in speech used differently between the 2 countries, so even the reproduction and copying of the word into Korean was not a perfect match (my professor said something along the lines of native Koreans have trouble with the "z" sound, thus the change from zhu to something that would sound like ju in Chinese).
Anyway, I agree with you on the link that still exists between Korean and Chinese, although I will still maintain that Chinese is too different grammatically from Korean and Japanese (which are similar to each other in that sense, thus people think they came from the same language family, which by the way, is not Chinese =P) to be related immediate origin wise.
