Why do you practice the religion you follow?
and further more..what is your religion?
i am just curious about why people believe the things they do...
personally i am agnostic..
i do believe in god...but not christianity god..
i believe people, life, the planet, and the universe were created by him/her
i chose this because way of faith because i believe there are so many flaws about the diferent religions..
i don't believe god should stop loving and turning there back on anyone..just because they are going through a hard time and either stop beleive in him/her or rebel against him/her.
that is when people need god the most.
i don't beleive that god will send you to hell just because you aren't practicing a religion..(even if you don't believe in god)
if you are a good person you should go to heaven!
end of story
just because you are guided wrong i don't beleive that you should go to hell
prusmebly that there is a heaven or hell atleast...
i tend to lean twords more of the reicarnation side though..
what is your religion and why you follow that faith?
The christian god is the god of stupidity... or just referring to the writers of the bible.
If there is a all good god then-> no one gets to hell, no matter what... yep, Hitler too.
God would be all if he/she is god, then all of us is god - or a part of god.
I am God, I remember that - n you are too! Just remeber!!! That is my religion...
i believe pretty much the same as the topic starter except that theres a 50/50 chance that athiasm is right.
i think people practice religion because two basic things
1. From childhood they are told that u r christian or muslim or whatever..... so it gets deep into their mind. Sure some of us reason against it and then choose to be atheist, agnostic or follow some other religion but most and believe me most of the people never reason and its just blind faith.
2. Fear. whatever anyone say fear is the basis of every religion.
It's a difference between spirituality (your own personal believes) and a religion. Officially, on the paper, I am still a Christian, but that's just because I am lazy.
I am a pantheist, who believs that god is all and all is god. I use to say that I believe in life; this planet, the universe, the world, and death. And the only way I can practice it is by living, now. - and hoping I will wake up again tomorrow, because we are in no right to take anything for granted.
Well, I follow most Catholic doctrine because that's how I was raised and, untill now, I have been content with it. Only now am I opening my mind and broadening my view. I consider myself a non-practicing Catholic. I believe in God as a supreme being, but beyond that, I think that man has injected all Churches with dogma and crap ... it's hard to know the truth.
I feel like I am on my way to something like Buddhism or Neo-Paganism.
| bantoo_4u wrote: |
i think people practice religion because two basic things
1. From childhood they are told that u r christian or muslim or whatever..... so it gets deep into their mind. Sure some of us reason against it and then choose to be atheist, agnostic or follow some other religion but most and believe me most of the people never reason and its just blind faith.
2. Fear. whatever anyone say fear is the basis of every religion. |
I disagree with this. I'm a Druid. I wasn't raised a pagan, in fact my parents were Christians. I never believed in their religion, even as a small child. I would say I always had pagan beliefs, but didn't know that's what they were called. I didn't become pagan out of fear. it was a natural thing for me. As for becoming a Druid, it was a natural progression.In my opinion, the only reason people follow any religion is brainwashing. Everyone is brainwashed from the moment they're born to believe in whatever their parents believe in. Those that aren't brainwashed (or get some sense as they grow and mature) are the ones that are agnostic, atheist, etc. because they're the ones that realize they can believe whatever they want and shouldn't have to follow in one religion's footsteps and do everything they say they should.
| Kaisonic wrote: |
| In my opinion, the only reason people follow any religion is brainwashing. Everyone is brainwashed from the moment they're born to believe in whatever their parents believe in. Those that aren't brainwashed (or get some sense as they grow and mature) are the ones that are agnostic, atheist, etc. because they're the ones that realize they can believe whatever they want and shouldn't have to follow in one religion's footsteps and do everything they say they should. |
Your logic is one sided.Something feels unnatural to me about Christianity. I was raised in a family that took belief in Christianity for granted--my parents, brother and I assumed we believed in God and Jesus, etc, but we never went to church and never made it a priority. In recent years, my mom has returned to Christianity, my dad is really on the fence between Christianity and Buddhism, my brother...well, he's just a lazy git sometimes, he's nowhere as far as I can tell, and I'm somewhere closer to a neo pagan at this point. It's strange how things turn out. We're all going our separate ways, philosophically. It makes for interesting discussion around the holidays.
| Kaisonic wrote: |
| In my opinion, the only reason people follow any religion is brainwashing. Everyone is brainwashed from the moment they're born to believe in whatever their parents believe in. Those that aren't brainwashed (or get some sense as they grow and mature) are the ones that are agnostic, atheist, etc. because they're the ones that realize they can believe whatever they want and shouldn't have to follow in one religion's footsteps and do everything they say they should. |
That's one reason why people follow a religion, but it's far from being the only one. When a person makes their own choices regarding religion, they dont all choose athiesm or agnosticism, they also choose a religion they feel is right for them, which to my mind is the way people should choose their religion. | bantoo_4u wrote: |
i think people practice religion because two basic things
1. From childhood they are told that u r christian or muslim or whatever..... so it gets deep into their mind. |
I was told I was Christian when I was little and I guess I did have a problem shaking it off. I tried like everything to hold onto my belief in Christianity, but couldn't do it. Almost everyone I knew that said they were Christian, were "talking" and not practicing. I didn't like it. I came to terms with my own sense of the "spirit world"...and what makes sense to me.
So I think that you are right. People are programmed with a religious concept when they are little and it is hard for them to come to their own truth as they grow unless their caregivers allow them the freedom to choose as they grow up. Even then there is still influence.Reincarnation seems real, according to the evidence. That's the premise 
That is something to think about when claiming that "everything I think is RIGHT"!
So, if my soul comes back as a human several times, I will have different beliefs each time. hell, I might be a racist kkk member in my next life...depends a lot on how I'm raised, right?
Two things for certain, I won't have the exact same beliefs each lifetime, but each lifetime I'll be convinced that I'm 100% right.
Makes no sense to hold so tightly to beliefs.
Does this make any of you second guess your current beliefs? Or do you have to much invested in them? Following the topic:
I was born into my religion and my parents follow it on a "religious" basis.
While I believe in free-will, I'm on the fence so I'm content with the religion I have.
Though my pet peeve is that everyone has a right to believe in what they want, but when people say their religion is better than theirs or when religion is used as an excuse. Religion should be kept at home and in its respective places of worship. Not in the government or workplace.
Essentially because it makes sense. Shinto has, at least to me, proven a common sense basis, and explains most of the sketchy parts of reality as I've experienced it.
| LeatherRose wrote: |
Why do you practice the religion you follow?
and further more..what is your religion? |
I practice the religion because I really believe in the meaning of my faith. I am christian, protestant, and nowadays I am member of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. I used to be, since I was born, Baptist.
| LeatherRose wrote: |
i am just curious about why people believe the things they do...
personally i am agnostic.. |
I personally donīt understand how the agnostic think about the eternity. If you believe there is a God (or gods) why donīt He/They have a purpose for our lives? We are not like the vegetables, but somehow closer to the animals, then the death sholdnīt be the end.
| LeatherRose wrote: |
i do believe in god...but not christianity god..
i believe people, life, the planet, and the universe were created by him/her |
But if you believe that there is a creator god, why not in the christianity God? I am sure you donīt REALLY know what is inside the Bible. It is dense and it is not fare if you say it is full of made up tales without knowing at least 10% of it. And I believe the agnostics donīt really knows 1% of the Bible, or thy would turn to christians.
| LeatherRose wrote: |
| i chose this because way of faith because i believe there are so many flaws about the diferent religions.. |
This you are right, but this happens because of man. We fail ever. God never fail by definition.
| LeatherRose wrote: |
i don't believe god should stop loving and turning there back on anyone..just because they are going through a hard time and either stop beleive in him/her or rebel against him/her.
that is when people need god the most.
i don't beleive that god will send you to hell just because you aren't practicing a religion..(even if you don't believe in god) |
I donīt believe this way: you donīt need a religion to live forever. You need to accept the right side of choice. This makes you eternal. If not, you will perish because you chosed not to be with God and be His Daughter/Son.
| LeatherRose wrote: |
if you are a good person you should go to heaven!
end of story
just because you are guided wrong i don't beleive that you should go to hell |
If you are a "good person"... let me tell you a little story: Lucifer was the brightest angel in heaven and he was a "good angel". The pride was his problem. He wanted to be more than another angel, he wanted prestige. He didnīt accepted the whole rules. He broke the rules and this made him to be apart and to be condemned not to have eternal life anymore. His time is ending. We know him as Satan, but he is not a "monster". Remember: I said he was an angel. The best one. This is the origin of the religion, the great controversy. Maybe you find all of this fantastic, but God is the creator of the world, as you think, and our truth is absolutely irrelevant to the divinity. This is not a Science Fiction movie, it is part of the human history, read the Bible. Everything is there.
If you want to know about this, read http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gc.html
| LeatherRose wrote: |
prusmebly that there is a heaven or hell atleast...
i tend to lean twords more of the reicarnation side though..
what is your religion and why you follow that faith? |
This is the reason. Read part of the book above and you will know about my religion.[/url]I was raised secularly, but eventually drifted into New Age-based waters. I don't belong to an organized religion, though I've visited everything from a Pentecostal church, to Unity, to Hare Krishna, and several Synagogues. I'm pretty much an Omnitheist in that I believe all religions hold truth to them, and all are recognizing the same God/Force/Higher Power/State of Mind...you get the idea.
Why I practice how I do is because it works for me. It provides me a system of meaning to apply to the world and what happens in my life, it (at least sometimes) makes me feel safe and like there is a purpose and reason to the Universe, and it helps keep my depression issues at bay. 
I have been raised in a Christian family for most of my life (actually since I was five). My mom has been a Christian since her teens. She got away from it for awhile when she met my dad; once she got back on track with God, they used to fight alot about it. My mom eventually took me and my two younger brothers and moved in with my parents for awhile. Even though I was pretty young, I seriously thought that they were getting divorced. THat's not what happened though. My dad ended up getting saved nearly a year after and now, years later are one big, happy family(literally-there are 6 of us kids now). You probably wonder why I just shared a part of my life story with you. That chapter in my life is part of the reason why I believe what I believe(I'll explain in depth in a minute.) The change that my dad underwent after he met Jesus was totally amazing. No longer was he the angry, verbally abusive person that I remember from my early childhood. He is a completely different person. He is kind, and Christlike person now, and I cannot tell you how proud of him I am. It wasn't just turning over a new leaf, which if you have been alive very long, you know those kinds of things don't happen overnight, nor do they last very long. My dad literally transformed overnight and he has been going strong for over a decade now.
The second reason why I believe what I believe is a little bit more theologial. The Bible was written over a span of thousands of years, with gaps of hundreds between each, yet is completely conistent(which some people don't see because they don't really understand the text-no ofense to those ppl) all throughout. Mainly, the basis of my faith: Jesus Christ is what I am talking about. In the Old Testament there were over 60 prophecies made about a coming messiah. In the New Testament, Jesus fulfilled every single one of them. The odds of all of these being fulfille in one man are like finding a needle in a haystack spanning the entire globe.
Not only has Jesus fulfilled every one of the prophecies of the Old Testament, He has done everything He promised to me He has promised to make me a new person. I won't go into detail, but I used to be a really bad person, not as bad as some, but bad. I swore, lied, cheated, you name it (not like drinking, or having sex or anything llike that). SInce I met Christ, I have stopped doing those things. It is really cool how God has worked in my life since then.
I keep referring to "coming to Christ" and phrases of the same sort. For those of you who might not understand what I mean, I mean that I understand this:
A. That I, like everyone else is a sinner. (Romans 6:23) Because of that sin, I was destined for Hell.
B. Jesus, God's Son came to this earth as a man, experiencing all the same emotion and temptations, lived a sinless life, died for my sins, and rose again so that I might have eternal life with Him in Heaven.
C. Since I have put my trust in Him, acknoweleged the above and asked for His forgiveness, I have eternal life.
And I'm not trying to push my religion on any of you guys or anything, I'll respect your beliefs, but if you have any questions about what I believe, feel free to ask. I won't mind.
God Bless! why did christ have to die to "save you"? why did he have to die for your sins? doesnt the idea of vicarious redemption basically just eliminate individual responsibility? How can Jesus forgive sins that you committed against other people for them? for example, if you steal from me, how is it that Jesus can forgive you for that when the "sin" was against me?
| videoguy wrote: |
| why did christ have to die to "save you"? why did he have to die for your sins? doesnt the idea of vicarious redemption basically just eliminate individual responsibility? How can Jesus forgive sins that you committed against other people for them? for example, if you steal from me, how is it that Jesus can forgive you for that when the "sin" was against me? |
Simple word: Mercy. God in all his mercy made a plan to save us because He simply love us. The thing is, nowdays it's hard to believe that someone would make such a sacrifice like He did for us but He simply DID IT!
We are all sinners by birth. We are all "heiress" of Adam's (all people came from Adam and Eve according to the Bible) sin and when we are born we already born apart from Jesus... According to the Bible, we should accept Jesus and have a "new birth"... read the following text from John 3
1.Now there was among the Pharisees a man named Nicodemus, who was one of the rulers of the Jews.
2. He came to Jesus by night and said to him, Rabbi, we are certain that you have come from God as a teacher, because no man would be able to do these signs which you do if God was not with him.
3. Jesus said to him, Truly, I say to you, Without a new birth no man is able to see the kingdom of God.
New birth??? I ddin't understand it neither. But after I born again I now know what Jesus was talking about! It changes your life, it really sets you free, you don't need things that the world in general needs to be happy... I mean some need to drink to be happy and if they can't, they just don't are... (it's just an example...) when you let yourself be in the arms of Jesus you only need His Grace to feel happiness and you know that your sins are forgiven by His mercy!!
Nicodemus kept trying to understand in John 3
4. Nicodemus said to him, How is it possible for a man to be given birth when he is old? Is he able to go into his mother's body a second time and come to birth again?
5. Jesus said in answer, Truly, I say to you, If a man's birth is not from water and from the Spirit, it is not possible for him to go into the kingdom of God.
6. That which has birth from the flesh is flesh, and that which has birth from the Spirit is spirit.
7.Do not be surprised that I say to you, It is necessary for you to have a second birth.
8. The wind goes where its pleasure takes it, and the sound of it comes to your ears, but you are unable to say where it comes from and where it goes: so it is with everyone whose birth is from the Spirit.
Then in fantastic and simple words Jesus explains why He had to die for us
14. As the snake was lifted up by Moses in the waste land, even so it is necessary for the Son of man to be lifted up:
15.So that whoever has faith may have in him eternal life
16. For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life.
17. God did not send his Son into the world to be judge of the world; he sent him so that the world might have salvation through him.
18. The man who has faith in him does not come up to be judged; but he who has no faith in him has been judged even now, because he has no faith in the name of the only Son of God.
Chapter 3 of John is finished by:
36.He who has faith in the Son has eternal life; but he who has not faith in the Son will not see life; God's wrath is resting on him.
Later, Paul, who did not believe in Jesus and has helped even to kill a Christian, after his convertion, wrote in Letter from Paul to Romans 8 about what means living by Spirit and why Christians are not judged as sinners:
Roman 8
1. For this cause those who are in Christ Jesus will not be judged as sinners.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law was not able to do because it was feeble through the flesh, God, sending his Son in the image of the evil flesh, and as an offering for sin, gave his decision against sin in the flesh:
4. So that what was ordered by the law might be done in us, who are living, not in the way of the flesh, but in the way of the Spirit.
5. For those who are living in the way of the flesh give their minds to the things of the flesh, but those who go in the way of the Spirit, to the things of the Spirit.
6. For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
7. Because the mind of the flesh is opposite to God; it is not under the law of God, and is not able to be:
8. So that those who are in the flesh are not able to give pleasure to God.
By laws, Paul means the laws of the Jews (religion rules) because Jesus came first to the Jews and then when He was here He said He came for everyone who believes.
Again, I'm a Christian because it's a simple faith ruled by love, it sets you free and gives another perspective for what means live and death... I mean you give yourself to Christ and simply you are not guilty anymore of whatever you've made in your life. It's simply beautiful!Excellent response! I couldn't have said it better my self! Way to go!! THanks JustCarol!
God Bless!!! | Quote: |
| Again, I'm a Christian because it's a simple faith ruled by love |
Have you ever read the older parts of the bible? I remember a god who stopt the sun from moving (which of course is not true as the earth is moving) so that his people would have more time to kill their enemies. I remember a god that made an entire city equal to the ground because people did not believe in him. The older parts of the bible are all death and disaster. Have you ever read closely and carefully? I was once read a part of the bible that told me to put hot coles on the heads of my enemies and that god would reward me for doing so.
That is no love. Not at all.I was raised as a Catholic, but as a child I found the whole thing incredibly boring. As I got older, I began to have doubts, especially as it is very common to be taught at school to question everything. I realised there is not the tiniest bit of evidence that any god has ever existed. Even if there was a god, he is obviously a god who never interferes with human life, so he might as well not exist.
As for heaven and hell - well, have you ever thought how stupid those ideas are? If you believe in them, think about this: do you believe there are rules for who goes to which place? If you say yes, it is not hard to think of a person who is on the boundaries of the rules. If you say no, then obviously you don't know, so why are you even bothering with your religion since you might get to go to heaven anyway
Since then I became an agnostic, and then an atheist. If you think about how much people knew in the time when the Bible was written, it was relatively little. The most advanced civilisation of the time (the Greeks) believed in multiple gods and had to use them to explain how things like earthquakes and volcanoes happened. Now we know how they work, but people say we still need a god to explain other mysteries that we don't understand yet - like how did life begin, or how does the human brain work. Those are very big mysteries, but surely it's possible to imagine that you don't need a god to explain how those things happen.
I'm rambling a bit now. Anyway, the original poster had a very good point. Most people get their religion from their parents, and accept it without thinking too much about it, or because it gives them comfort. | Quote: |
| I was raised as a Catholic, but as a child I found the whole thing incredibly boring. |
No wonder you left your faith!! Not to bash your upbringing, but Catholisism is so stuffy!!! Their ideas on things are just way off from what the Bible really tells us (Purgatory and the such).
| Quote: |
| As for heaven and hell - well, have you ever thought how stupid those ideas are? If you believe in them, think about this: do you believe there are rules for who goes to which place? If you say yes, it is not hard to think of a person who is on the boundaries of the rules. If you say no, then obviously you don't know, so why are you even bothering with your religion since you might get to go to heaven anyway Smile |
There are no rules on whether we go to heaven or hell besides if you have accepted Christ, unlike what catholisism teaches. You can't get to heaven by just being a good person. It is about having a relationship with Jesus. | Quote: |
Have you ever read the older parts of the bible? I remember a god who stopt the sun from moving (which of course is not true as the earth is moving) so that his people would have more time to kill their enemies. I remember a god that made an entire city equal to the ground because people did not believe in him. The older parts of the bible are all death and disaster. Have you ever read closely and carefully? I was once read a part of the bible that told me to put hot coles on the heads of my enemies and that god would reward me for doing so.
That is no love. Not at all |
Yes, I remember those parts well. I am not saying I completely understand these parts either, even as a Christian, but one thing you have to know is that Israel was God's chosen nation. The nations attacking them were barbaric heathenistic nations. Also, one thing I do know that you might not, was that it wasnt just nations that were trying to invade Israel that got the brunt of the Lord's anger, even Israel itself was punished from time to time because of their refusal to obey Him. God was punishing them as you have to a child to get them to complyu to do what is right. It doesn't mean that He didn't love them, He just wanted them to obey.
In the New Testament, we see God's love when He sent Jesus to die for our sins so that we could go to heaven as I explained inmy original post and as Just Carol explained. No longer did we have to offer animals to recieve forgiveness-the price was paid, God gave us a gift; many people don't take it. He loves us, and even though He punishes us from time to time, he always will.Why did got choose Isreal? If he had chosen another country then Israel would be sinners. That's pretty relative. Also, most christians sadden that sacrifice or value it. But what on earth was so difficult about it? Jesus knew he would go to heaven so big deal. He did not have to fear death or pain as everything would turn out okay.
| Quote: |
| Why did got choose Isreal? If he had chosen another country then Israel would be sinners. |
I don't know why God chose Israel. I will ask someone and get back to you on that one. I can tell you that the people of Israel were sinners. In fact, everyone is a sinner. Even you and I. Romans 3:23 says that "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." No one is perfect, not even the most good of people are good enough in God's eyes to get to Heaven on their own.
| Quote: |
| Jesus knew he would go to heaven so big deal. He did not have to fear death or pain as everything would turn out okay |
I have to agree with you that Jesus knew He was going to Heaven. This is true because Heaven was His home prior to assuming human flesh and walking amongst us. The big deal is that He came to set us free from the power of sin. How? Because He was perfect, meaning He faced temtation(Mattthew 4:1-11) and did not sin and thus fall short of the glory of God. As I mentioned before, Israel had to make sacrafices in the form of certain animals for certain things in order to gain salvation.
I do, however have to beg to differ on Him fearing death and pain. The New Testament records Him to have sweat drops of blood in the garden of Gethsemene. If that wasn't from fear, I don't know what it was from. He knew His fate, He knew that temporarily, as God passed the judgement from our sins onto Him, that He would be for the first time in eternity separated from His father. I really do believe that He was afraid. But Jesus knew that by becoming the ultimate and final necessary sacrifice on the cross, He knew that we would be saved of our fate of going to hell for our sins(Romans 6:23). He loved us that much that He would do that for us.
GOd Bless!!!
| Quote: |
| Also, most christians sadden that sacrifice or value it. But what on earth was so difficult about it? |
I don't quite get at what you are saying, could you rephrase this? | aames_prov356 wrote: |
There are no rules on whether we go to heaven or hell besides if you have accepted Christ, unlike what catholisism teaches. You can't get to heaven by just being a good person. It is about having a relationship with Jesus. |
You said there's no rules, then you say what the rule is.
So what about all those people who were born before Jesus? Have they all gone to hell? What about Moses? He didn't know Jesus (how could he?), so I guess he's in hell too. | aames_prov356 wrote: |
| You can't get to heaven by just being a good person. It is about having a relationship with Jesus. |
I'm guessing you're from the West. Have you ever considered that if you were born and raised in a Muslim-majority country, for example Pakistan, that you would be pushing exactly the same argument for Islam.
So then how can you possibly say one of them is right, and the other isn't. Either they're both right (and contradictory) or else they're both wrong. | mraek wrote: |
| aames_prov356 wrote: | | You can't get to heaven by just being a good person. It is about having a relationship with Jesus. |
I'm guessing you're from the West. Have you ever considered that if you were born and raised in a Muslim-majority country, for example Pakistan, that you would be pushing exactly the same argument for Islam.
So then how can you possibly say one of them is right, and the other isn't. Either they're both right (and contradictory) or else they're both wrong. |
Agreed.
What aames said is a load of garbage. No where in the Bible or Quran (which I follow, but I believe in the Bible too) does it say that you need to have a relationship with Jesus Christ (who I also believe in) to go to Heaven.
You need to be a good person, and to maintain a relationship with God, which for a Muslim such as myself is praying daily, going to Hajj once in your life, etc... | HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
| mraek wrote: | | aames_prov356 wrote: | | You can't get to heaven by just being a good person. It is about having a relationship with Jesus. |
I'm guessing you're from the West. Have you ever considered that if you were born and raised in a Muslim-majority country, for example Pakistan, that you would be pushing exactly the same argument for Islam.
So then how can you possibly say one of them is right, and the other isn't. Either they're both right (and contradictory) or else they're both wrong. |
Agreed.
What aames said is a load of garbage. No where in the Bible or Quran (which I follow, but I believe in the Bible too) does it say that you need to have a relationship with Jesus Christ (who I also believe in) to go to Heaven.
You need to be a good person, and to maintain a relationship with God, which for a Muslim such as myself is praying daily, going to Hajj once in your life, etc... |
That would be pretty sad for all those children who are raised as an atheïst an never encounter religion in their lifes or, same way as people who do believe refuse to stop doing so, want to start believing because of how they were raised. They can be good people but don't have a relationship with god because their parents raised them that way. Will those people go to hell? That seems unfair to me. | Coen wrote: |
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: | | You need to be a good person, and to maintain a relationship with God, which for a Muslim such as myself is praying daily, going to Hajj once in your life, etc... |
That would be pretty sad for all those children who are raised as an atheïst an never encounter religion in their lifes or, same way as people who do believe refuse to stop doing so, want to start believing because of how they were raised. They can be good people but don't have a relationship with god because their parents raised them that way. Will those people go to hell? That seems unfair to me. |
If two boys are born into the same village, and are the same age, but one happens to be a rich landlord's son, and one is a poor farmer's son, is it fair to judge them equally? No.
If a normal student scores a 50% on a test, and a mentally disabled student scores 50%, who should the teacher be more concerned about?
Do you think that God will judge Donald Trump and a beggar from the street the same way? No.
Just like that, do you think a person born into a religious home will be graded the same way as a person born in an atheist home? No.
Its more on how much you improve; humans have two duties in life. Their duty to man and their duty to God. Duty to God is praying, going to Church/Mosque, being thankful, etc... duty to man is giving to charity, being nice to others, etc...
So an atheist who still fulfills his duty to man can still be good in God's eyes, but someone born to a religious home has to fulfill their duty as they know they have to, while the atheist knows no better.
When grown older, its up to the atheist to gain their faith in God, which can grant them rewards.
Last edited by HalfBloodPrince on Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total | HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
So an atheist who still fulfills his duty to man can still be good in God's eyes, but someone born to a religious home has to fulfill their duty as they know they have to, while the atheist knows no better.
When grown older, its up to the atheist to gain their faith in God, which can grant them rewards. |
What a ridiculously patronising view. 'The atheist knows no better'? Do you think your religiously inspired moral code is in some way 'better' than my atheistic/humanist code? In what way exactly? I try to do the right thing because it IS the right thing - I don't rely on punishment or reward from some supernatural invention in order to act morally, my ethics/morality is reasoned, not imposed.
Do you think all atheists are ignorant? Do you think you know more about Christian theology than I do?
You have previously demonstrated that you don't even seem to know your own Islamic religious theology very well, so I think it's a bit rich to state that atheists are ignorant.Too many questions 
I'll do my best to answer them all.
| Coen wrote: |
| Have you ever read the older parts of the bible? I remember a god who stopt the sun from moving (which of course is not true as the earth is moving) so that his people would have more time to kill their enemies. I remember a god that made an entire city equal to the ground because people did not believe in him. The older parts of the bible are all death and disaster. Have you ever read closely and carefully? I was once read a part of the bible that told me to put hot coles on the heads of my enemies and that god would reward me for doing so. |
People often refer to those parts to say that God isn't only about love, which I totally understand because I had the same questions before start studying the Bible.
READ CAREFULLY
The Old Testament was written to the Jews (and they live under these laws 'till nowdays). Is basically a book of Hebrews History and rules they follow. As I said before, Jesus came to the Jews but they didn't accept Him (some actually did, but not them all) and He came exactly to breake rules When He came, He said that we shall not totally under the laws now but He was giving us His grace so we can live under love. He said:
Matthew 5
38. You have knowledge that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39. But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned.
40. And if any man goes to law with you and takes away your coat, do not keep back your robe from him.
Now I'm goint to answer your question directly. I don't know if you have children, but if you don't (as myself) think about your parents. If you are a good son, obedient and all the kinds of things that a good son is, your parents won't think twice to say if you deserve something or not. Think as God as a Father... If we are loyal to Him, He will be loyal to us. If we are in the middle of a war, He will save us if He wants to. The same thing about Israel.
| aames_prov356 wrote: |
| The nations attacking them were barbaric heathenistic nations. Also, one thing I do know that you might not, was that it wasnt just nations that were trying to invade Israel that got the brunt of the Lord's anger, even Israel itself was punished from time to time because of their refusal to obey Him. |
God is justice. He will surely help the ones who live and obbey His word more then others. The nations were barbaric and unloyal. They did not serve God. If you are in figth, would you take your friends' side or someone who you don't know? You may answer: I would pick the right side. So did God. He picked the right side, He helped Israel not because they were God's chosen nation, but because they found rightness (I don't know if this is correct) in God's eyes. The Bible is full of texts saying that if you are loyal, God will help you to go trough whatever. And as aames_prov356, it wasn't only agains the other nations, Israel had been unloyal many times and ALL the times God made them pay. Did God make it because He's not love at all? No, because He loved them and want to correct their bad behaviour as a father does to a child.
But when Jesus died as a sacrifice for us, He said that if we only believe Him and truly regret our sins, we would would be forgiven. If you kill someone and regret, Jesus will forgive you and give you another chance and if you are loyal, you go to heaven. But you still go to jail because you have to pay for what you've done, justice.
Why do you think this world is like it is? In Christians opinion is the end of the times. When the time comes, Jesus will take the loyals with Him to heaven. Bible prophecies are ALL being accomplished. God's desire is not to loose any of us, but He won't save you unless you say you want to be saved. He won't save you just because you are good but because you are loyal. We all have sins but the difference is that some of us regret them everyday and some don't.
God love us all be He is a God of justice. He will give us exactaly what we deserve.
| Coen wrote: |
| Why did got choose Isreal? If he had chosen another country then Israel would be sinners. That's pretty relative. Also, most christians sadden that sacrifice or value it. But what on earth was so difficult about it? Jesus knew he would go to heaven so big deal. He did not have to fear death or pain as everything would turn out okay. |
He did not choose Israel, He choose a man called Abraham (a loyal one) and made him a promise:
Genesis 12
1. Now the Lord said to Abram, Go out from your country and from your family and from your father's house, into the land to which I will be your guide:
2. And I will make of you a great nation, blessing you and making your name great; and you will be a blessing:
3. To them who are good to you will I give blessing, and on him who does you wrong will I put my curse: and you will become a name of blessing to all the families of the earth.
The great nation is Israel.
And you are mistaken when saying that Jesus has not suffer pain. He is God's son but He was flesh and blood like all of us. The Bible says He had the same basic needs that we have: Thirsty, hunger, cold and pain when He was on the cross. Imagine how painful it was. Not mentioning the fear knowing that you are about to be held in a cross.
And yes He knew He would go to heaven, He knew He was God's son and for this He didn't have to suffer such pain and humiliation specially for others sin... He didn't have to but He wanted to just to show us that perfect love doesn't chase it own benefits. He died to show us that we have to remain humble and not fight back humiliations. He died to say to us "I've already did the sacrifice, go ahead and be loyal, you don't have to do anything but love as I loved"
Jesus made the universal sacrifice to set os free.
| mraek wrote: |
| You said there's no rules, then you say what the rule is. |
The only rule is love because if you have love, you have it all.
1 John 5
1. Everyone who has faith that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God: and everyone who has love for the Father has love for his child.
2. In this way, we are certain that we have love for the children of God, when we have love for God and keep his laws.
3. For loving God is keeping his laws: and his laws are not hard.
4. Anything which comes from God is able to overcome the world: and the power by which we have overcome the world is our faith.
5. Anything which comes from God is able to overcome the world: and the power by which we have overcome the world is our faith.
See? Having love for Jesus you have it all If we love Him, we are going to be loyal. If you love your wife/husband aren't you going to be loyal?
That's all I know, feel free to ask any questions
I have to say that I enjoy reading not only this but other topics in Philosophy and Religions forum, you are very intelligent
God Bless | JustCarol wrote: |
READ CAREFULLY
The Old Testament was written to the Jews (and they live under these laws 'till nowdays). Is basically a book of Hebrews History and rules they follow. As I said before, Jesus came to the Jews but they didn't accept Him (some actually did, but not them all) and He came exactly to breake rules When He came, He said that we shall not totally under the laws now but He was giving us His grace so we can live under love. |
Well Jesus WAS a Jew. He was one of a bunch of rebel prophets at the time. He did, indeed, depart from many of the OT 'rules' and I find a lot of his moral teachings admirable and ahead of their time. We should, however, remember that his teachings were aimed at Jews, not the 'heathen'. It was Paul who later took the message to the heathens - all the evidence is that Jesus intended his message solely for Jews. | Quote: |
| Now I'm goint to answer your question directly. I don't know if you have children, but if you don't (as myself) think about your parents. If you are a good son, obedient and all the kinds of things that a good son is, your parents won't think twice to say if you deserve something or not. Think as God as a Father... If we are loyal to Him, He will be loyal to us. If we are in the middle of a war, He will save us if He wants to. The same thing about Israel. |
That is a strange sort of father - demanding loyalty before showing loyalty. That strikes me as more of a demagogue than a father. Would a father really kill his children if they didn't show loyalty to him? I suppose the sad answer is yes, judging by the 'honour' killings we occasionally see here in the UK in Islamic* families, where daughters are killed by their relatives for 'bringing shame' on the family. It's not something which I think one should admire, however. | Quote: |
| God is justice. He will surely help the ones who live and obbey His word more then others. The nations were barbaric and unloyal. They did not serve God. If you are in figth, would you take your friends' side or someone who you don't know? You may answer: I would pick the right side. So did God. He picked the right side, He helped Israel not because they were God's chosen nation, but because they found rightness (I don't know if this is correct) in God's eyes. The Bible is full of texts saying that if you are loyal, God will help you to go trough whatever. And as aames_prov356, it wasn't only agains the other nations, Israel had been unloyal many times and ALL the times God made them pay. Did God make it because He's not love at all? No, because He loved them and want to correct their bad behaviour as a father does to a child. |
Again we are left with a picture of God who is vengeful and selfish. 'Believe in me or else..'. 'Correcting bad behaviour' is a rather euphamistic term for mass murder don't you think? | Quote: |
| But when Jesus died as a sacrifice for us, He said that if we only believe Him and truly regret our sins, we would would be forgiven. If you kill someone and regret, Jesus will forgive you and give you another chance and if you are loyal, you go to heaven. But you still go to jail because you have to pay for what you've done, justice. |
Why was it necessary to go through a sado-masochistic exercise like the crucifiction in order to forgive sins? Could God not simply have forgiven our sins without insisting that his 'son' be tortured and killed? I presume the defence is that we all suffer from 'original sin', based on the apple scrumping exploits of Adam and Eve? Does it not strike you as a little barbaric to blame the children for the sins of the father? Most modern ethics would reject that viewpoint as unjustified and callous. | Quote: |
| Why do you think this world is like it is? In Christians opinion is the end of the times. When the time comes, Jesus will take the loyals with Him to heaven. Bible prophecies are ALL being accomplished. God's desire is not to loose any of us, but He won't save you unless you say you want to be saved. He won't save you just because you are good but because you are loyal. We all have sins but the difference is that some of us regret them everyday and some don't. |
Again we have the God of blackmail - 'do what I say or else'. In fact you now take this further. 'It doesn't matter if you are a good person. If you don't say you believe in me, then you will burn'. Is this really a God you should look up to? He sounds more like a spoiled child.
| Quote: |
| God love us all be He is a God of justice. He will give us exactaly what we deserve. |
Love does not work like that. Love does not rely on blackmail. Love does not require the object of that love to make a particular committment or perform particular acts. Love is unconditional.
(I'll leave it at that for the moment since I have other posts to answer...)
*I'm not deliberately singling-out Islam here, but I don't know of examples from other faiths here in the UK....
Last edited by Bikerman on Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:06 pm; edited 1 time in total | Bikerman wrote: |
| Well Jesus WAS a Jew. He was one of a bunch of rebel prophets at the time. He did, indeed, depart from many of the OT 'rules' and I find a lot of his moral teachings admirable and ahead of their time. We should, however, remember that his teachings were aimed at Jews, not the 'heathen'. It was Paul who later took the message to the heathens - all the evidence is that Jesus intended his message solely for Jews. |
Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/ltn01.html
http://www.ety.com/HRP/racehate/shahak1.htm
Or take the words of Maimonides (12th Century Rabbi/scholar)
"If one slays a single Israelite, he transgresses a negative commandment, for scripture says 'thou shalt not murder'. If one murders willfully in the presence of others, he is put to death by the sword. Needless to say, he is not put to death if he kills a heathen."
Note the assumption that only Jews can be murdered, heathens are different. This is the background to the message of the NT. People are considered to be Jews, heathens are 'animals' or at least not quite 'people'. Jesus was a Jew and therefore part of this 'zeitgeist'. | Quote: |
You said there's no rules, then you say what the rule is.
So what about all those people who were born before Jesus? Have they all gone to hell? What about Moses? He didn't know Jesus (how could he?), so I guess he's in hell too |
Back in the times before Jesus(Old Testament times) there were rules. THough I can't go into detail here because it would take too much space, it involved being a good person (after Jesus came, this changed) as well as offering sarcrifices to atone for their sins. THey had to obey the ten commandments. If you want to know more of the laws, read Leviticus, which you might already have done, because it appears to me that you do have some Biblical knowledge. Even in Moses time, before all of these laws were written , you still had to obey God, and offer sacrifices (see Genesis 46:1) in order to get to heaven. SO no, they aren't all in Hell. SOme obeyed, some didn't. | Quote: |
| What aames said is a load of garbage. No where in the Bible or Quran (which I follow, but I believe in the Bible too) does it say that you need to have a relationship with Jesus Christ (who I also believe in) to go to Heaven |
Untrue.
John 14:6 says, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to Father except through Me."
THat implies a relationship, don't you think? | Quote: |
| That would be pretty sad for all those children who are raised as an atheïst an never encounter religion in their lifes or, same way as people who do believe refuse to stop doing so, want to start believing because of how they were raised. They can be good people but don't have a relationship with god because their parents raised them that way. Will those people go to hell? That seems unfair to me |
Just because they were raised atheist doesn't mean that they aren't told by someone at one point or another that they need Christ. If they are told, they are then held accontable for what they decide to do with the information given to them. If they accept it and enter a real relationship with Christ, they will obviously be going to heaven. If they don't, they will go to hell. Sorry if I'm being too blunt. THe parents willl be judged by God as well for raising their children in that belief. | Quote: |
| It was Paul who later took the message to the heathens - all the evidence is that Jesus intended his message solely for Jews. |
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son. Whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but will have everlasting life."
THe whole world wasn't just Israel. It included the heathens as well. | Quote: |
| Again we are left with a picture of God who is vengeful and selfish. 'Believe in me or else..'. |
God doesn't ever say that anywhere in the Bible. I want exact words from the Bible (reference included). Otherwise, I regard that statement as false. He doesn't force us to believe in Him. THat is why He gave us free choice, and that is why our world is such a wreck today. | Quote: |
| Why was it necessary to go through a sado-masochistic exercise like the crucifiction in order to forgive sins? Could God not simply have forgiven our sins without insisting that his 'son' be tortured and killed? I presume the defence is that we all suffer from 'original sin', based on the apple scrumping exploits of Adam and Eve? Does it not strike you as a little barbaric to blame the children for the sins of the father? Most modern ethics would reject that viewpoint as unjustified and callous. |
Before Adam and Eve sinned the world was perfect. Once they sinned, sin was in the world. We all were born with the same human desires that were there in the Old Testament. We aren't blamed for the sins of the father. We are judged for our own sins.To answer the original question, I am a Christian. A lot of people take offense to Christians because of stereotypes, the same way many Christians look at Muslims. I've had my doubts and I've had my questions about my own religion, as well as the other religions of the world. Though there are many differences there are plenty of similarities, and I believe all religions are derived from the same belief. That belief is that by living a life of good intention and spiritual understanding, we will be rewarded. The reward itself is why many people choose to have faith in their religions. But for myself, I look at Jesus Christ as my savior not because I have definitive proof, but because I was born into a half baptist and half catholic family. I chose to call myself Christian. Why change to a different religion that I will have questions about? Jesus is who brings me closer to God. Buddha for some, Mohamed for others. I do not believe any one religion is right over another. Like cultures, we are born into a religion. If that may so lead us to live a better life, then why change? I am only sorry for Atheists, who are products of a civilization gone crazy. I understand an Atheist when they speak to me their beliefs, but I still feel as if they need to recognize there is something bigger than all of us. I do not know what exactly or who exactly that 'something bigger' is, but that is why i have faith. Faith and fear do not coincide for me. If i fear God it is because of his power, not because of what he'll do to me. Also, God may not be the white man with a white beard in hippie sandals, he may just be the force that runs through us all. Point is no one knows for sure, only him.
| JustCarol wrote: |
| mraek wrote: | | You said there's no rules, then you say what the rule is. |
The only rule is love because if you have love, you have it all.
|
So the Beatles were right after all 
Does this mean that if you're a lovely atheist, you still get to heaven (if it exists). | Quote: |
| Again we have the God of blackmail- "do what I say or else". In fact, you now take this further. "It doesnt matter if you are a good person. If you dont say you believe in me, then you will burn". Is this really a god you should look up to. He sounds more like a spoiled child. |
I should like to point out that God says these things in love. He tells us that He loves us but if we don't repent, then there will be consequences. You were saying that the father in the analogy made that you quoted was like a spoiled child. Any good parent disciplines his children. Are you calling your parents- my parents spoiled children because they tell us (well yours probably don't any more since you are grown up) that if we don't obey what they are telling us to do that they will take away something of value to us-spoiled children? I don't think so. They love us, but they need for us to listen and obey. If we don't they have to punish us, despite the love that they have for us. The same happens with God. He has warned us for years and years that we need to obey. We don't, then he has to punish us. It is that simple.
| Quote: |
| Would a father really kill his children if they didn't show loyalty to him? I suppose the sad answer is yes, judging by the 'honour' killings we occasionally see here in the UK in Islamic* families, where daughters are killed by their relatives for 'bringing shame' on the family. It's not something which I think one should admire, however. |
The honour killings you refer to are just a custom of their religion. They have nothing to do with Christianity.
God wouldn't send a lightning bolt and kill us if we don't believe in Him. He may, however, allow us to go our own way and participate in activities that may end up killing us. That is not Him killing us. Just as it is not your parents killling you if you decide to go get drunk and wreck your car of a bridge or into a tree. You kill yourself. God will allow us to do what we want, but the consequences that result are your own fault-not His. | Quote: |
JustCarol wrote:
mraek wrote:
You said there's no rules, then you say what the rule is.
The only rule is love because if you have love, you have it all.
So the Beatles were right after all Wink
Does this mean that if you're a lovely atheist, you still get to heaven (if it exists). |
No, it doesn't. What JustCarol is referring to is that if you have the love of Jesus within you, as in you have accepted Him as Lord of your life, then and only then will you get to heaven. | HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
If two boys are born into the same village, and are the same age, but one happens to be a rich landlord's son, and one is a poor farmer's son, is it fair to judge them equally? No.
If a normal student scores a 50% on a test, and a mentally disabled student scores 50%, who should the teacher be more concerned about?
Do you think that God will judge Donald Trump and a beggar from the street the same way? No. |
Actually, I do. The bible is pretty clear about it and so are you guys sometimes. Believe in god or go to hell if you don't.
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
| Just like that, do you think a person born into a religious home will be graded the same way as a person born in an atheist home? No. |
I think they will. You say all you have to do is love Jesus. Why wouldn't someone from a christian home be graded thougher if all you have to do is love Jesus. It doesn't sound hard or anything.
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
Its more on how much you improve; humans have two duties in life. Their duty to man and their duty to God. Duty to God is praying, going to Church/Mosque, being thankful, etc... duty to man is giving to charity, being nice to others, etc...
So an atheist who still fulfills his duty to man can still be good in God's eyes, but someone born to a religious home has to fulfill their duty as they know they have to, while the atheist knows no better.
When grown older, its up to the atheist to gain their faith in God, which can grant them rewards. |
That means I wouldn't have to believe in god at all to get some of his appriciation as long as I'm a good human, correct? | aames_prov356 wrote: |
Back in the times before Jesus(Old Testament times) there were rules. THough I can't go into detail here because it would take too much space, it involved being a good person (after Jesus came, this changed) as well as offering sarcrifices to atone for their sins. THey had to obey the ten commandments. If you want to know more of the laws, read Leviticus, which you might already have done, because it appears to me that you do have some Biblical knowledge. Even in Moses time, before all of these laws were written , you still had to obey God, and offer sacrifices (see Genesis 46:1) in order to get to heaven. SO no, they aren't all in Hell. SOme obeyed, some didn't. |
Not sure about those sacrifices - that's hardly the behaviour demanded by a loving god.
So the rules to get into heaven changed at some point? That's a bit cruel of god isn't it! Don't you think he should have let people know - although I suppose you'll say that's what Jesus was doing. Even so, it's a very elaborate plot. This is the kind of contradictory nonsense you get when you take the Bible literally. Look too closely, and it just sounds ridiculous.
That brings me to another point. Why do you believe the Bible is true? Do you think all books written in that era are true? What about Homer's Odyssey, which mentions various other gods and goddesses and is just as believable? You could just as easily say you think that book is the literal truth, and worship Zeus and Athena instead. | Quote: |
aames_prov356 wrote:
Back in the times before Jesus(Old Testament times) there were rules. THough I can't go into detail here because it would take too much space, it involved being a good person (after Jesus came, this changed) as well as offering sarcrifices to atone for their sins. THey had to obey the ten commandments. If you want to know more of the laws, read Leviticus, which you might already have done, because it appears to me that you do have some Biblical knowledge. Even in Moses time, before all of these laws were written , you still had to obey God, and offer sacrifices (see Genesis 46:1) in order to get to heaven. SO no, they aren't all in Hell. SOme obeyed, some didn't.
Not sure about those sacrifices - that's hardly the behaviour demanded by a loving god.
So the rules to get into heaven changed at some point? That's a bit cruel of god isn't it! Don't you think he should have let people know - although I suppose you'll say that's what Jesus was doing. Even so, it's a very elaborate plot. This is the kind of contradictory nonsense you get when you take the Bible literally. Look too closely, and it just sounds ridiculous.
|
.
It wasn't like He demanded human sacrifices as did the gods of other civilizations. The rules didn't really change all that much, if you think about it. In Old Testament times, I have already stated sacrifices were made in order to gain salvation. Different animals meant different things and there were alot of diferent rituals involved in it with the priests doing certain things. If you think about it, it really isn't that much trouble compared to trying to get to heaven by doing anything else. God didn't intend for the sacrificial system to go on forever and ever. So, He promised Israel throughout the old testament (specifically in the Davidic Covenant- a branch off of the Abrahamic Covenant) that He would send a messiah who would build an eternal dynasty (this dynasty referred to is the Kingdom of Heaven- which basically is the Kingdom prophesied to come after the White Throne Judgement This eternal dynasty would be made up of those who accepted Christ before He returned. THere were over sixty prophecies made about the messiah. Jesus came and fulfilled every single one of them. He literally became a sacrifice. He shed His blood so that we could get to heaven without having to do anything but ask Him in. Elaborate plot? Yes, but I serve an elaborate God who can do anything. Yes, as you have probably figured out, I do take the Bible literally...in most things (like the cutting off of your hand that sins thing, yeah. I don't think that that was meant to be taken literally, but if you want to discuss that, make a new thread, and I will be happy to join.) Jesus dying for me... yeah I take it literally and personally because it was my sin that put Him there. All this may sound ridiculous to you. I get that. That is where faith comes in. Believing in what seems to be the nuttiest thing. You may think me crazy for taking my chances on a God that may or may not be real. Let me be crazy. Christianity(true Christianity) works. I am taking my chances. What do I have to lose? Become a better person, have Someone who has the best advice ever given (through the Bible), and be promised eternity in paradise.
| Quote: |
| That brings me to another point. Why do you believe the Bible is true? Do you think all books written in that era are true? What about Homer's Odyssey, which mentions various other gods and goddesses and is just as believable? You could just as easily say you think that book is the literal truth, and worship Zeus and Athena instead |
The Bible is completely consistent all the way through. It was written down by men, inspired by God,with hundreds of years between each book. Some people claim that there are inconsitencies, but that is only because they are not understanding the text properly. If the Bible really is bogus, why would men spend all of that time seeing to every detail of that book while they had other things to do like surviving? Men couldn't have gotten all of that in its entirety and perfection, without something divine behind it. There would be too many flaws to count. | Coen wrote: |
| You say all you have to do is love Jesus. |
Erm, no. I didn't say that. I was, in fact, arguing against it. My quote tags must've been broken somewhere...
EDIT:
| HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
| You need to be a good person, and to maintain a relationship with God, which for a Muslim such as myself is praying daily, going to Hajj once in your life, etc... |
| aames_prov356 wrote: |
All this may sound ridiculous to you. I get that. That is where faith comes in. Believing in what seems to be the nuttiest thing. You may think me crazy for taking my chances on a God that may or may not be real. Let me be crazy. Christianity(true Christianity) works. I am taking my chances. What do I have to lose? Become a better person, have Someone who has the best advice ever given (through the Bible), and be promised eternity in paradise.
|
Are you saying you believe just on the chance that you might get to spend eternity in paradise (if it exists)? Or because of fear of hell? These are not good reasons to believe in something. It's like saying 'believe in Santa Claus or you won't get any presents'.
| aames_prov356 wrote: |
The Bible is completely consistent all the way through. It was written down by men, inspired by God,with hundreds of years between each book. Some people claim that there are inconsitencies, but that is only because they are not understanding the text properly. If the Bible really is bogus, why would men spend all of that time seeing to every detail of that book while they had other things to do like surviving? Men couldn't have gotten all of that in its entirety and perfection, without something divine behind it. There would be too many flaws to count. |
Believing in something just because a lot of other people do is not a good reason. A lot of people believe in Scientology, or Islam, or any number of different religions, but I see you haven't chosen to believe in the same as them.
And I disagree, I think the Bible is very flawed. Look at the first chapter of Genesis 1 here and see how many obvious errors there are compared with what we know about the world (although no doubt you'll ignore these flaws and say they're part of god's plan):
http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Genesis+1&book_id=1&version1=9&tp=50&c=1 | Quote: |
aames_prov356 wrote:
All this may sound ridiculous to you. I get that. That is where faith comes in. Believing in what seems to be the nuttiest thing. You may think me crazy for taking my chances on a God that may or may not be real. Let me be crazy. Christianity(true Christianity) works. I am taking my chances. What do I have to lose? Become a better person, have Someone who has the best advice ever given (through the Bible), and be promised eternity in paradise.
Are you saying you believe just on the chance that you might get to spend eternity in paradise (if it exists)? Or because of fear of hell? These are not good reasons to believe in something. It's like saying 'believe in Santa Claus or you won't get any presents'. |
Are you saying that you believe on the chance that there is no GOd and that there is nothing after this life? All I was saying is that even though you may think that I am taking my chances, because to anyone who doesn't believe in Christianity, that is what I am doing. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. But what do I have to lose? That is my question if you look at it as me taking chances. If I don't believe in God, then I probably will go to hell or whatever atheists believe is after death if there turned out to be a God (which I believe there is). If I believe in God and He really doesn't exist, then I don't go to Heaven, but I don't lose anything. If you want to look at the chances, then there it is. But no, I really am not basing my beliefs on chances. I know where I am headed after I die. No chances involved. I am just making the point if anyone thinks that way.
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aames_prov356 wrote:
The Bible is completely consistent all the way through. It was written down by men, inspired by God,with hundreds of years between each book. Some people claim that there are inconsitencies, but that is only because they are not understanding the text properly. If the Bible really is bogus, why would men spend all of that time seeing to every detail of that book while they had other things to do like surviving? Men couldn't have gotten all of that in its entirety and perfection, without something divine behind it. There would be too many flaws to count.
Believing in something just because a lot of other people do is not a good reason. A lot of people believe in Scientology, or Islam, or any number of different religions, but I see you haven't chosen to believe in the same as them.
And I disagree, I think the Bible is very flawed. Look at the first chapter of Genesis 1 here and see how many obvious errors there are compared with what we know about the world (although no doubt you'll ignore these flaws and say they're part of god's plan): |
I base my beliefs on what I believe to be true. Not anyone else. If I based my beliefs on what alot of people around me believed, then I would have so many religions mixed into one that I would no longer actually be believing in anything at all. I believe in Jesus Christ, because I believe that He came and died for my sins.
No, I don't need to look at Genesis 1. I have a Bible, I read it daily-many times daily and I know what it says. Do you? What version do you read? The King James is often challenging to read and understand. If you want to remain as close to the original Greek as possible, read th New King James. It is a little easier to understand and won't appear to contradict. | aames_prov356 wrote: |
| Quote: | aames_prov356 wrote:
I am taking my chances. |
| Quote: | aames_prov356 wrote:
But no, I really am not basing my beliefs on chances. I know where I am headed after I die. No chances involved. I am just making the point if anyone thinks that way. |
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A slight inconsistency.
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aames_prov356 wrote:
No, I don't need to look at Genesis 1. I have a Bible, I read it daily-many times daily and I know what it says. Do you? What version do you read? The King James is often challenging to read and understand. If you want to remain as close to the original Greek as possible, read th New King James. It is a little easier to understand and won't appear to contradict. |
Genesis 1 in the New King James is almost identical, and similarly flawed:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=1&version=50
I don't read the Bible. I have no need for it, and no interest in it, except for the sake of arguing with people like you
By the way, you still haven't justified why you believe in it - and saying you believe in it because it's true isn't a reason. | mraek wrote: |
| I don't read the Bible. I have no need for it, and no interest in it, except for the sake of arguing with people like you |
Dear friend, that's why you didn't understand it after all the explanation... If you read the Bible as a simple book so a book It will be but if you read It knowing and believing that It can change your life forever, with open heart and mind then you'll find out what we are talking about. Of course it will only happen If you want to, God won't force you like He didn't force me or anyone I know.
God is about love and justice, again. He doesn't love me more than He loves you but He will give honour to the ones who honour His name. But still He loves you, since every single thing in you was made by Him and you only breath because He lets you breath everyday. By saying this I'm not expecting that you believe me, I'm only saying what I believe is true. About God's justice, again, His justice is different from ours and I can't say that God's is unfair because He see things that I don't see and I probably never will Even if God had left Adam and Eve after sin (so the whole world would have no salvation at all) He wouldn't be unfair because Adam have sinned (I don't know if this is correct) even after he was told "no" he has chosen to eat the apple. But God loves us so much that he has forgiven and later made the last alliance with the world trough Jesus sacrifice. It's about choices then: He shows you the truth, if you don't believe your life is still the same, if you do It will change forever. Plus, after your life you will go to heaven with Him. But I don't expect you believe me, anyway, I'm just writing my point of view.
The whole think is very simple (and simple scary some people and I don't know why): We regret our sins, we confess Jesus name, He forgives us and then we start learning about Him and His grace. We start loving Jesus for everthing He has done, still does and will do. For the sacrifice because no one has ever died for the whole world (people may have died for causes, friends, but never for the whole world), for the transformation that His word bring to us and our family and for the peace, the simple peace that we have inside our heart even in trouble times. If we are scared today, tomorrow we won't be because we simple lay down all our troubles before the King. Our problems are still there but the peace is inside us because we know that Jesus will take care of our lives. Whatever happen, we have Jesus with us.
Again I don't really expect that you agree or understand what I'm talking about because I didn't believe God before as I do now. Then I knew someone who was going trough REALLY bad times (think about the worst thing that can happen to you) and when everyone expected that she would come out very sad and in tears she was all smiles saying that she was ok because of Jesus and that Jesus has saved her. I was impressed because if I was in her body I would be in panic. Then I went to a church in order to find out "that" Jesus she was talking about (I knew all about Jesus before, I had some Bible knowledge then and I thought that He was bad and unfair... the world is all about war and all the things we say trying to prove that God don't exist or is evil instead of God, etc...) and I heard the preach carefully trying to find out the mistakes of the preaching.... but I couldn't. Because it was all about the Creator loving His creatures and being with them, teaching how to live a life by faith without depending of someone or something to be really happy and feel safe... it was something I've never heard back then. I've started to pay attention on things that were happening around the world and it was all biblical. And finally I wanted to have that unbreakeable peace. I cleaned my heart of all prejudice I had against God or religion realizing that I really didn't know AT ALL what they were talking and most important, living about. I couldn't live in doubt anymore so I decided to accept Jesus as my only saviour saying... ok MAYBE I can't live without you... MAYBE you'll love me... MAYBE you will take care of me.... and even with my small faith (but yet, some faith) He did it all and I can't stop loving and praising Him!
It's all about faith, open heart and mind. If you don't have at least one of them you will NEVER understand what we are talking about. I don't think you guys are less inteligent than I am (because I have to say again: you are incredible, very inteligent people!) but you can't understand a Bible as more than a simple book if you don't have those three things.
By the way, I have an open mind. I was so many things before Jesus that you wouldn't believe me (atheism included)... But no one of them set me free from all the things that used to bring me fear.
I love this forum so much!!!!!!!!!!!What an awesome testimony JustCarol! It is so awesome how you came to know Christ...wow!
You have an awesome way to reach out to the world around you-keep using it! By the way, I love this forum too!
God Bless You! | Quote: |
| I am having trouble with believing anything that is said in the bible as the bible has some great contradictions in it on very vital points. Therefor, I do not believe anything, or hardly anything, that is written in the bible as to be historically accurate or true. As of that I do not believe that god could have spoken to anyone so I don't believe the entire story thus my reply that I would doubt the story rather then the facts in it as they are most likely to be false or not accurate to say the least. |
this is what you wrote on the Isaac-Ishmael thread, coen
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HalfBloodPrince wrote:
If two boys are born into the same village, and are the same age, but one happens to be a rich landlord's son, and one is a poor farmer's son, is it fair to judge them equally? No.
If a normal student scores a 50% on a test, and a mentally disabled student scores 50%, who should the teacher be more concerned about?
Do you think that God will judge Donald Trump and a beggar from the street the same way? No.
Actually, I do. The bible is pretty clear about it and so are you guys sometimes. Believe in god or go to hell if you don't. |
this is what you posted in this thread.
what DO you believe in? do you believe the Bible or not?I still am not seeing a single inconsistency.
Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:1 if God didn't create the earth, what did?
Genesis 1:2-25 describes creation of the earth and all the creatures upon it
Genesis 1:26 You might see an inconsitency here if you don't know anything else about the bible. Create man in our image may confuse you. REad the Bible thoroughly, and you see that the reference is made to the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Though we don't look like God, when we were first created, we had the same spirit because we were sinless and were just like God.
Genesis 1:27 male and female were created. we have both still today
Genesis 1:28-31 God gave dominion over all the life to man... animals don't rule over us, so that is still relevant today.
I see no true inconsitencies. Your point is?
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aames_prov356 wrote:
Quote:
aames_prov356 wrote:
I am taking my chances.
Quote:
aames_prov356 wrote:
But no, I really am not basing my beliefs on chances. I know where I am headed after I die. No chances involved. I am just making the point if anyone thinks that way.
A slight inconsistency. |
what I was saying is that if you believe that I am taking my chances, then that is what I am doing, because I do not care what you think. If I am crazy let me be crazy.JustCarol, thanks for your explanation of why you are Christian. That's good if it makes you happy.
I personally am very driven to knowing the truth, I think I would rather know the truth and be unhappy than accept what I consider to be lies and be happy.
Now for the fun part! The inconsistencies in Genesis 1, and these are just the ones within the text itself that I have spotted. There may be others. I'm also ignoring the fact that the earth was created by some more rational process than 'god put it there' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_and_evolution_of_the_Solar_System. Yes I do trust Wikipedia more than the Bible, at least it has traceable sources
2 - The earth was without form. So what shape was it? It had water on it apparently, so it can't have been that formless.
3 - Some light is created here, but what is it? It's not daylight, or the sun, moon or stars, they're all created later.
5 - Day is created in line 5 but the sun isn't created until 16.
6,7,8 - According to this, heaven is above the sea, but there is more water above it. That must mean heaven is an actual physical place above the earth (maybe the moon??) and has more water above it. Where is this?
9 - The water on earth is not gathered into one place. Or does this imply that the continents moved apart very slowly over millions of years? That doesn't fit with the 4000 year old theory.
14 - Says let there be lights to divide the day from night. But this is the third day already, apparently.
17 - The stars are apparently in heaven itself, meaning that heaven must be the entire universe (and also remember it still has water above it).
26 - God said man is made in our image. Were there multiple gods? I know you covered this already saying its the father, son and holy spirit. But how could the son (Jesus) exist before mankind existed?
Is god incapable of creating something without saying 'let there be' first?
Shouldn't there another verse that said 'god planted the dinosaur bones to confuse the atheists'?
Shouldn't there be a verse to say how god was created, or who he evolved from? | Coen wrote: |
| That means I wouldn't have to believe in god at all to get some of his appriciation as long as I'm a good human, correct? |
Hmm...I seem to recall a certain Coen saying "screw god". No, someone like you will prob. go to hell. Sorry. | HalfBloodPrince wrote: |
| Coen wrote: | | That means I wouldn't have to believe in god at all to get some of his appriciation as long as I'm a good human, correct? |
Hmm...I seem to recall a certain Coen saying "screw god". No, someone like you will prob. go to hell. Sorry. |
As will the person who claims to be dedicated to their religion, but rarely exhibit it correctly. | Quote: |
| As will the person who claims to be dedicated to their religion, but rarely exhibit it correctly. |
It isn't about having religion. Jesus himself said religious people, like the pharisees, are not children of God but children of the Devil. It is about a true realtionship with Jesus Christ. | Quote: |
| Now for the fun part! The inconsistencies in Genesis 1, and these are just the ones within the text itself that I have spotted. There may be others. I'm also ignoring the fact that the earth was created by some more rational process than 'god put it there' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_and_evolution_of_the_Solar_System. Yes I do trust Wikipedia more than the Bible, at least it has traceable sources |
If you can have that much faith in a database system, that I personally could go in and change what it says, how on earth can you not believe the Bible?
I will be back later to finish, I