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Karma coming full circle...

 


LumberJack
I read this recently:

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/08/09/bush-iraq.html

"U.S. President George W. Bush said Thursday he believes Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki will explain during his visit to Iran that delivering weapons to the hands of Iraqi militants is a destabilizing measure, with consequences."

Basically, it is the US saying to Iran stop arming Iraqi Militants.

However... I read this about a couple days ago.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/ny-woweap07,0,5911050.story

"WASHINGTON - The Pentagon has lost track of about 190,000 AK-47 assault rifles and pistols given to Iraqi security forces in 2004 and 2005, a new government report shows, raising fears that some of the weapons have fallen into the hands of insurgents fighting U.S. forces."

Basically, it reveals the Pentagon can't find 190,000 weapons and 80,000 units of body armor that were given to Iraqi forces.

So the question is, who is providing more weapons to the militants, the US itself, or Iran.

I think the US, because techincally, weapons were given to Iran before during the Iran/Iraq war, wasn't it?

I feel bad for you guys Sad
bgillingham
That really sort of cancels any sentiment that we're supporting our troops, eh? If we love our troops so much, we'd at least have serial numbers on all of these weapons ... and there weren't even serial numbers - so there's no way to "connect the dots" so to speak, when one of these weapons kills (anybody). Although the right wing pundits would like for you to believe that this isn't a Republican's fault, I am sure that Nancy Pelosi didn't arrange for the weapons to go into the hands of the "enemy".

This isn't the first time that we let the enemy get large amounts of weapons. There were also large weapons caches along with the famous 380+ tonnes of high explosives "lost" back in 2003 and 2004 (Tons of Iraq explosives missing).

Follow the money -- and follow the war plans, and you should be able to come to the conclusion that this is all just a logical spin-off from the greatly successful Project for a New American Century.

Every time that I read about our great crusade (oops... War), I am saddened because our success would only be achieved after killing ALL Islamic fundamentalists and ALL who are sympathetic to their freedom to believe whatever they choose. Why don't we let Arabs be in complete charge of their lands? I am reminded of a sarcastic bumper sticker I saw "Why did God put our oil under their sand?" (or something to that effect). Islamic extremists don't want to come over here and chop off my head (although some Americans probably want to for my lack of patriotism) - they just want to be in control of their own land and resources.

More karma would be that we get invaded by some other nation and when we fought back, we'd get called insurgents or terrorists.
Billy Hill
LumberJack wrote:

I feel bad for you guys Sad


Don't.

We don't need nor want your sympathy. It is because of our own sympathy for people like you that has gotten us where we are today. We're too worried about what everyone else thinks of us. That's not what made the US great. We are great because we do what we feel is best for freedom. Our freedom and the freedom of anyone else world wide who wants to be free.

The fact that we may (or may not) be allowing arms to go to Iranians is moot. It is the justification that we want. When we can justify actions against the radical islamic muslims in Iran as a nationally backed entity, it will provide a major turning point in the persian's (among others) centuries old desire of calaphate worldwide. And I don't mean they will finally have it. Razz

Bush knows that. He isn't afraid, and he doesn't care what the defeatists think and say. He knows what's right.

Wink

Oh, and I'd like for you to point out one crusade, err, I mean war, we've been in that we started for any reason other than national security or the protection of another nation's physical being or sovereign rights.
bgillingham
I am with the Lumberjack!! Those who still support the war are bigots and racist in my opinion. You will find the vast majority of educated people in direct opposition to this unjust war (over 60% of all Americans are against the cluster-F$@% that we're paying for in the middle-east). I would really like a refund for the portion of my taxes that were invested in this over the last 6 years... now costing us over $2 billion every week!!

The house of cards will fall very soon -- September will be General Patreas's (sp) report, and there will be MASSIVE protests in D.C. as well as an increase in the bloodshed for that week (Al Qaeda knows that the report is going to make the decision for us). Regardless of what Patreas says, Bush and Cheney will say that this is very important to continue now, and that progress is being made, blah blah blah..... Bush and Cheney will get what they deserve - if not a war crimes trial, or impeachment, they will have this guilt for the remainder of their days.

Bush and his circle of friends started the debacle in Iraq over a bunch of lies (virtually everybody agrees that WMD, and Al Qaeda connection were lies) all tenuously justified based on September 11. Now, we couldn't have gone to war on September 10th, right? We were all lied to at every turn and I am tired of it.

Simply enumerating the wars that we've started for non-security reasons is a moot point here since this war was not for national security -- rather "insecurity" or "low self-esteem" or "drunken violence". Also, you are mistaken if you believe that it was for our national security -- it is for world-domination. Read about the PNAC (Project for a New American Century) to see what Rice, Cheney, Rumsfeld really thought America should do to become the world's sole super-power. Since the cold war was over, the plan was world domination... If we were a peaceful nation, it may actually be good if we dominated (or united) the world, but the truth is that most of the world now views us as we are - evil sons of bitches... that's a fact Jack.

We started this Iraq debacle, and we should look for the best way to end it --- the BEST way to end it is NOT with hundreds of thousands more guns and ammo, my friend. The best way probably involves employing large numbers of relief workers and promoting the benevolent Islamic leaders as much as we can ... pushing western ways on them will not work. Did the Native Americans understand European laws? Bush get's his orders from God. We all know that Bush is a Jesus freak. Also, I call him the largest terrorist recruiter - and not very christian by all measures. How christ-like is it to initiate a war that has killed over 1,000,000?? Iraq was less bloody under Saddam's rule --- our presence there has pretty much tripled the violence.

I can't believe that there are still those cowards (those who are motivated primarily by fear) out there that think that we need to kill more. That is so backward and uncivilized. If we stopped fighting them over there -- and some day in the future, we're attacked (again) on our homeland - we shouldn't fight back... nobody has ever convinced me that they would keep killing us at an increased rate. I would think that with every attack, they would lose their own public support. Their religion is complex, but I don't think that it has anything in it to justify continued "revenge" attacks.

I personally can't wait for the second coming -- if it really means that all Christians will disappear. The rich marble and gold on the catholic altar make me sick --- I don't need to see how much money they have and God certainly doesn't need to have worldly riches devoted to his worship. Religious dolts that support killing are two-faced liars; think about this the next time you're making your confessions. Oh -- one more thing... what did Jesus say "love your neighbors" and "turn the other cheek".

War does not determine who is right, only who is left. Peace out.
Billy Hill
bgillingham wrote:
I am with the Lumberjack!! Those who still support the war are bigots and racist in my opinion.


Racist and bigots??? Laughing

Namecalling?? Laughing Laughing

Quote:

over 60% of all Americans are against the cluster-F$@%


Sorry, I'll have to see stats on that one. From what I've heard, there may be 60% that want to leave Iraq, but more than 95% want to leave in victory.

LoL, namecalling.

Quote:
I can't believe that there are still those cowards (those who are motivated primarily by fear) out there that think that we need to kill more


It's funny you bring that up. Guess what the ratio is of people the US has killed versus the number of people the radical islamic muslims have killed.

Or better yet, how many Americans have sacrificed their lives so that innocent Iraqi's would not be killed? And how many radical islamic muslims have hidden behind women and children in order to kill? Or used women and children to strap bombs to and use them to kill? Or killed women and children?

Yeah, I thought so. Rolling Eyes
bgillingham
Billy Hill wrote:

The fact that we may (or may not) be allowing arms to go to Iranians is moot.
Didn't you mean to say something about arming Iraqis instead of Iranians? Mad

Billy Hill wrote:
bgillingham wrote:
I am with the Lumberjack!! Those who still support the war are bigots and racist in my opinion.


Racist and bigots??? Laughing
Namecalling?? I call it like it is --

For your future reference:

big -ot -ry [big-uh-tree]
–noun, plural -ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot

ra -cism [rey-siz-uhm]
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Billy Hill wrote:
Quote:
I can't believe that there are still those cowards (those who are motivated primarily by fear) out there that think that we need to kill more


It's funny you bring that up. Guess what the ratio is of people the US has killed versus the number of people the radical islamic muslims have killed.

Or better yet, how many Americans have sacrificed their lives so that innocent Iraqi's would not be killed? And how many radical islamic muslims have hidden behind women and children in order to kill? Or used women and children to strap bombs to and use them to kill? Or killed women and children?

Yeah, I thought so. Rolling Eyes
Your points are not objective. The insurgent fighters are responsible for the majority of killings, but who enabled this all to happen? After all, the topic is how the US lost large shipments of weapons and explosives that basically armed these insurgents. Would any of this uprising be possible if the Iraqi army was intact? Ask Dick Cheney from 2000 or 1994 and he'd tell you that removing Saddam "what would you replace him with" and doing so would cause "parts of Iraq" to break off. You can watch the YouTube video of the 1994 interview: (1994). The 2000 statement was basically an agreement on the same points. edit -- forgot the link for the videos

Now, it is relevant to note that pResident Bush is going to make a speech tomorrow that draws on all of the bloodshed after Viet-nam. Now --- don't you even have a brain to remember that we didn't go into Iraq because there were Viet-cong fighting there--- it was for WMD or to remove Saddam, or whatever else they said at the beginning. Don't be such a fool to take whatever Bushie says as God's will since it seems that Gods will would not change, yet Bush makes a different excuse for continuing this Iraq debacle every YEAR!

Shiiiiat! Grow some balls - and get a free will --- they're free after all!
Billy Hill
bgillingham wrote:
The insurgent fighters are responsible for the majority of killings,


Yes. They are.

Quote:
but who enabled this all to happen?


Considering how long the persians have been doing this, (MUCH longer than the USA has been around), I'd say the persians??

Laughing Laughing
bgillingham
So, did I conclude correctly that you are a bigot? Are you stubbornly in opposition to any belief that is not your own? How about a racist? Do you think that you are supreme or that you have some special god-given right that allows you to determine others' fates?

Persians did not start this war -- America did.


9/11 was a possible "False flag" operation that we either knew was going to happen, or we helped it happen. This was all to justify a huge war operation that would guarantee that we remain the world's sole super-power through the next 100 years. For historical evidence that we'd even consider killing our own people to justify a war, look up "Operation Northwoods" for info on how we planned to justify preemptive airstrikes on Cuba.

I believe that we're all equal. Even the white-trash Nascar types who all drunkenly say things like "get 'r done". They are entitled to their beliefs and all I can do is engage them in conversation... I can't exactly start a war with them, right? You probably believe that progress is being made - taking signs like the number of applicants for the Iraqi security forces as a great sign, rather than what it really is --- there are virtually no paying jobs in Iraq, so they have to "pay the mortgage" so to speak.

You are wrong when you call the Persians into this fray. Furthermore, they are not the catalyst -- Persians == Iran, not Iraq. Wow, you really lump together the various Arabs. It is like calling the pope a Methodist. Do not forget that this was a war of choice -- based on American lies and twisted intelligence -- all because Bush thought that Iraq was bad.

<sarcasm>Sure. I remember when Bush said that we needed to go to war in Iraq because the Persians are wanting to resume fighting the other Arabs in the area.</sarcasm> Idiot pResident. This all happened because we disbanded the Iraq army. That was a huge mistake - you should research a little bit about how we disbanded their army.
Soulfire
Why is everyone blaming Bush for Clinton's mistake? After all, we could've ended everything ... but no, we chose not to.

Bush is cleaning up, doing the dirty work that none of the world wants to do - yet they want to reap the benefits. I'm sick of war, yes, and I want us to leave as soon as possible, but as it has been stated, I do not want to leave defeated.
Billy Hill
bgillingham wrote:
So, did I conclude correctly that you are a bigot? Are you stubbornly in opposition to any belief that is not your own? How about a racist?


Only when that "belief that is not my own" is used to try to kill me because I don't believe in that "belief that is not my own", which is exactly what radical islamic muslims are trying to do.


Quote:
Do you think that you are supreme


Supreme in what way? Barbarism? No. The persians are much better barbarians than I am. I could not justify killing an entire family because they do not believe in my God.

Quote:

or that you have some special god-given right that allows you to determine others' fates?


Yes. But ONLY if that other person is trying to kill me because I won't "submit" to his belief. Then his fate will be in my hands, and it will not end well for them

Anything else you're unclear about? Wink
Billy Hill
Soulfire wrote:
I'm sick of war, yes, and I want us to leave as soon as possible


That's all they needed to hear, thanks. Wink
bgillingham
I respect your fears, but you shouldn't be afraid of something that has killed less than 0.000005% of the human population. I just think that the priorities are upside down (things that kill larger percentages: cancer, stokes, heart-attacks to name a few). Over the last 6 years, the US has spent at least 10 times more money fighting these extremist religious groups than we have researching the big three causes of death.

If you believe in God - and you are Christian, you can not be a supporter of this war. If you really believe that the Bible is right - you'd respect the commandment "Thou shall not kill". Also, Jesus, peace be upon him, said to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", "turn the other cheek", "let him who is without sin cast the first stone", "love your neighbors", ...

If you are Islamic, Mohammed, peace be upon him, was likewise a man with peaceful messages.

So, why would any fervor ever come out of these conflicting beliefs? Your answer is as good as mine, but none of this is adherent to the pillars of each faith. This point really frustrates us atheists.

This discussion is going off topic, but I have to get a clear answer to this one question.

Seriously, what do you think we should do to get peace?
  • A. retreat military from Iraq, but leave contractors to repair infrastructure
  • B. retreat - if there are future attacks on us would be rebutted with "please stop killing"
  • C. become close allies with the benevolent sectors of the Islamic religion
  • D. kill, kill, kill -- until nothing threatens our version of peace (and quiet)
  • E. accept their beliefs, accept Islam as it is, but ask that they respect that we don't convert
  • F. accept their beliefs completely
  • G. attack Iran and Syria - until they get the idea that Islamic extremism won't be tolerated
  • H. other
Billy Hill
bgillingham wrote:
I respect your fears, but you shouldn't be afraid of something that has killed less than 0.000005% of the human population.


Which smelly orifice did you pull that number from? radical islamic muslims have been murdering for centuries. Do you know how many they've killed in Iraq in just the last few years???

You better either find some facts, or stop pulling numbers out of your ass, or I'll report you for not backing up your claims. (Read the TOS)

Quote:
I just think that the priorities are upside down (things that kill larger percentages: cancer, stokes, heart-attacks to name a few). Over the last 6 years, the US has spent at least 10 times more money fighting these extremist religious groups than we have researching the big three causes of death.


Have you lost anyone to an attack by radical islamic muslims? No? Then STFU and don't tell me what my priorities should be. Mkthks.


Quote:
If you believe in God - and you are Christian, you can not be a supporter of this war.


First of all, who the hell are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't support? Secondly, I don't believe I've ever disclosed my religious belief here, or if I even have one...

Quote:
If you are Islamic, Mohammed, peace be upon him, was likewise a man with peaceful messages.


Messages like "behead those who insult islam" ??? or "Kill those who will not submit to islam" ??? that are coming from radical islamic muslims? You know, those same RIMs that are yelling "praise be to Alah" as they blow up my family?

Quote:
Seriously, what do you think we should do to get peace?


Same thing we've been doing... defending ourselves and those unable to defend themselves, and killing those that are trying to kill us.
bgillingham
Billy Hill wrote:
Quote:
Seriously, what do you think we should do to get peace?

Same thing we've been doing... defending ourselves and those unable to defend themselves, and killing those that are trying to kill us.
I take it that you think that peace can be a result of "D. kill kill kill", right? That's truly sad.

I think that it is ridiculous that you called me a name caller -- four posts ago - and now you use the phrase "smelly orifice" to frame my statistics. Isn't that sad when you can't speak to some people in a civilized manner?

You want me to back up my numbers. Here you go -- arrrrhhhgghhh - <<poop!>> fresh from my lovely ass:
If the world population is 6.2 Billion, and the number of deaths attributable to radical islamic attacks against is --- 3,200 (WTC) and if we even add 3000 (we'll even add the military deaths in Iraq - and blame the Islamics for defending their homelands), over a 6 year period... that is 6,200 deaths / 6,200,000,000 over 6 years for somewhere between 0.00001% to 0.00000086% (each year) of everybody on the planet. You know math is an exact science -- for obvious reasons, I won't add the close to 1,000,000 killed in Iraq over the last few years - since I couldn't really blame Islamic resistance fighters for fighting dirty... they are at such an extreme disadvantage, but they will fight when they have little choice. Oh, by comparison -- 430,000 deaths are attributable to smoking cigarettes each year - that's just the average in the US between 1990 and 1994 - that translates to 0.15% of all Americans.

Now, the bottom line of all of this is that they will do anything to get us to leave, so why would our plan be to stay at all costs??????????

Billy Hill wrote:
Quote:
If you are Islamic, Mohammed, peace be upon him, was likewise a man with peaceful messages.


Messages like "behead those who insult islam" ??? or "Kill those who will not submit to islam" ??? that are coming from radical islamic muslims? You know, those same RIMs that are yelling "praise be to Alah" as they blow up my family?
I am sorry to hear that radical Islamic followers blew up your family --- or is that a claim that you can't back up?

Billy Hill wrote:
Quote:
I just think that the priorities are upside down (things that kill larger percentages: cancer, stokes, heart-attacks to name a few). Over the last 6 years, the US has spent at least 10 times more money fighting these extremist religious groups than we have researching the big three causes of death.

Have you lost anyone to an attack by radical islamic muslims? No? Then STFU and don't tell me what my priorities should be. Mkthks.
I was speaking of the nation's priorities... not yours -- you are too full of yourself to think that you were the object of my statement. In my opinion, I can't tell anybody what their priorities are, but since you asked I think that your individual priorities should be to get a free will and a history lesson. Another thing, you don't know whether or not I lost anybody due to any aggression... heart attacks and strokes have killed around 80% of my family members in the last 20 yeasr.

Billy Hill wrote:
Quote:
If you believe in God - and you are Christian, you can not be a supporter of this war.


First of all, who the hell are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't support? Secondly, I don't believe I've ever disclosed my religious belief here, or if I even have one...

On the same note, you missed the key conditional "If" at the beginning of my sentence. You are too full of yourself - If I must, I will reiterate for you : It is impossible for Christians to support a war like this.

Since you brought it up as such, the same exact argument can be made of Christians -- Arabic conventional wisdom says that America is a mostly Christian nation, and our leader has professed to pretty much a plan for continued killing and hunting in the name of defending our beliefs. Also, since we are trying to back up facts -- could you please provide the quote where Mohammed said anything about beheading me? I rest my case.

Killing is a very dangerous way to address a problem. It is completely illogical to think that our path will lead to peace... what about the tens of thousands of orphaned Iraqi children that we are semi-responsible for. If you asked them why their parents are dead, many would blame USA. We can't possibly convince anybody that they are wrong by bombing them.
LumberJack
Soulfire wrote:
Why is everyone blaming Bush for Clinton's mistake? After all, we could've ended everything ... but no, we chose not to.

Bush is cleaning up, doing the dirty work that none of the world wants to do - yet they want to reap the benefits. I'm sick of war, yes, and I want us to leave as soon as possible, but as it has been stated, I do not want to leave defeated.


ROFL. Why don't we blame the American founding fathers for creating the sorry excuse for a country that is the United States. Go back to the source of all this foolishness. Or why don't we blame God, for creating us. Smile
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