Here is a disturbing piece, suggesting the balance of views within Muslim communities could tip in favor of violent confrontation.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56503
| Quote: |
The Muslim leader said he does not believe in democracy and insists there is no such thing as freedom of religion, "because freedom is an absolute term."
"Are we to say that Muslims can fully practice religion in America," he asked in an attempt to explain. "Say, for instance, I was a Muslim in America. Could I call for the destruction of the American government and establishment of an Islamic state in America? No. So where is the freedom of religion? There is none."
|
Will Moslems who seek peaceful coexistence with non-Muslims speak up to say so? I hope they will. I recently watched a great movie called Obsession, it focuses on radical Islam and there obsession with destroying the west. Honestly compared to the total number of Muslims the ones who practice and believe in the radical Islam sect is very small. But like you said unfortunately relatively few of the peaceful Muslims stand up for peace, and speak out against the radicals who are destroying such a once great religion. Why I am not sure is it fear, is it that they don't care, or is it that they actually believe that what the radicals are doing is ok. I have personally seen quite a bit of hatred towards Muslims and I hate it just as much as I would hatred towards anyone for any religion, but I can understand where it comes from. People are afraid of the radicals islamists, and since the only experience most people have with Muslims, is with the Radical islamist, then they group them all as the same and hate them equally. If more peaceful Muslims would take it upon themselves to speak out against the radicals then people would see that most Muslims hate the radicals even more then we do because they are destroying everything that Islam stands for.
Wow, make sure you listen to the interview with Abu Saif.
| Quote: |
Abu Saif: We have some facts from our creator and one of those facts is that Christians and Jews will hate Muslims. So when I say to you, you hate me, its not because I know you personally, its because the creator of the heaven and earth has already informed me, that the Christians and Jews will never like Islam Muslim.
Humphries: So there is nothing we can do to be friends?
Abu Saif: There is something you can do to be friends. You can become Muslim. |
| mathiaus wrote: |
Please do not double post. Use the  button instead!
|
Suggesting that the majority of Muslims would like to rise up and overthrow the West is almost as good as that thing about Fox News being "fair and balanced".
Do you happen to know anyone who is Muslim or indeed understand the religion at all?
Who are you responding too?
As I said | Quote: |
| Honestly compared to the total number of Muslims the ones who practice and believe in the radical Islam sect is very small |
From my experience Fox news is about the most fair and balanced news programs (at least in the US). (BBC is even better)
| mathiaus wrote: |
Please do not double post. Use the button instead!
|
The post I was responding to was the first one - in particular the assessment that the majority of Muslims 'could tip in favor' of extremism.
I don't watch much American news, mainly what I see on CNN International from time to time and the PBS' Newshour (shown here on SBS), although from what I've gathered most people see fox as being the least fair-and-balanced news service of the lot (an argument for which there appears to be a significant amount of evidence).
| Tim Graham wrote: |
The post I was responding to was the first one - in particular the assessment that the majority of Muslims 'could tip in favor' of extremism.
|
I was summarizing the message of the article, not claiming that it was accurate. If you got the impression that I think we are in immediate danger of violence from the majority of Muslims, then I apologize. I sincerely hope that this one example can be answered by many situations showing that a lot of Muslims are in favor of peaceful coexistence.
In my final comment, I stated that I hope other Muslims will speak out to disown the most extreme views stated here. If even a few Muslims do that, it will be clear that the fear-mongers are wrong. I certainly hope that they are. | Tim Graham wrote: |
| Suggesting that the majority of Muslims would like to rise up and overthrow the West is almost as good as that thing about Fox News being "fair and balanced". |
You have judged something you admittedly know absolutely nothing about.
| Tim Graham wrote: |
| I don't watch much American news, mainly what I see on CNN International from time to time and the PBS' Newshour (shown here on SBS), although from what I've gathered most people see fox as being the least fair-and-balanced news service of the lot (an argument for which there appears to be a significant amount of evidence). |
You take the word of another without even considering making your own judgment. How sad.
| Quote: |
| Do you happen to know anyone who is Muslim or indeed understand the religion at all? |
Yeah, they're all bad. That's what many people say, but I don't really know. 
(See how that works? 
)
Seriously, I know a few muslims. They're good people as far as I can tell. But then again, that guy that just took my wallet seemed like a nice enough guy the way he put his hand on my shoulder as he shook my hand. (Again, see how that works??) | SonLight wrote: |
| Tim Graham wrote: | The post I was responding to was the first one - in particular the assessment that the majority of Muslims 'could tip in favor' of extremism.
|
I was summarizing the message of the article, not claiming that it was accurate. If you got the impression that I think we are in immediate danger of violence from the majority of Muslims, then I apologize. I sincerely hope that this one example can be answered by many situations showing that a lot of Muslims are in favor of peaceful coexistence.
In my final comment, I stated that I hope other Muslims will speak out to disown the most extreme views stated here. If even a few Muslims do that, it will be clear that the fear-mongers are wrong. I certainly hope that they are. |
Given the relatively short and somewhat unclear nature of the post it was a bit hard to tell.
| Billy Hill wrote: |
| Tim Graham wrote: | | Suggesting that the majority of Muslims would like to rise up and overthrow the West is almost as good as that thing about Fox News being "fair and balanced". |
You have judged something you admittedly know absolutely nothing about. |
"Don't watch much" and "know nothing about" are two different things. The standard of Fox News' content is hardly regarded as being exceptional and I have seen (and indeed heard of) numerous instances of bias and somwhat shonky coverage. Although I don't watch it much on a regular basis - I can't - I generally find US news services to be a bit too sensational for my tastes.
| Billy Hill wrote: |
| Seriously, I know a few muslims. They're good people as far as I can tell. But then again, that guy that just took my wallet seemed like a nice enough guy the way he put his hand on my shoulder as he shook my hand. (Again, see how that works??) |
That's a null argument - you can say that for either side. | Tim Graham wrote: |
| Billy Hill wrote: | | Seriously, I know a few muslims. They're good people as far as I can tell. But then again, that guy that just took my wallet seemed like a nice enough guy the way he put his hand on my shoulder as he shook my hand. (Again, see how that works??) |
That's a null argument - you can say that for either side. |
It's nice to see you got my point. Now, how is it you came to know Fox is something besides what they say they are? Oh, that's right, someone told you. You didn't make the decision based on facts OR your own opinion. You based it entirely on someone else's opinion.
Thanks for playing.For me, as a Muslim, I have seen the general view of Muslims go downhill since 7/11. And the idiot fanatics aren't helping one bit. Claiming to speak for the Ummah (the whole of the Muslim community), yet they do nothing but preach their own hatred.
Suicide is forbidden in Islam. That means suicide bombers are anything but martyrs. And as for a violent religion; the world Islam means peace. And we use "As-Assalamu Alaykum", meaning peace upon you, to great each other. That is one of the very commendable things about Islam.
To any non-Muslims; I feel I must apologize for the way some Muslims have been led to fanaticism although I fully defend myself... I am not in contact with any such people and I have no control over what other may decide to do. But still, some people may hold me accountable... so what can I do? Saying sorry for something I did not do is not worth anything but some political leaders here in the UK say that more Muslims should try and prevent fanaticism. But it's not as easy as it sounds, I guarantee you.
I also believe that the media has helped forge this perverse view of Islam, completely against the original teachings. I see nothing but fanatics on the news. Also, we always hear about the
Islamic radicals... they are not Islamic at all, far from it...
Sadly this is the way life is. I have no control over which path other Muslims decide to choose. This does not mean I commend the radicals, but I cannot be held responsible for them either. Now I have the feeling of guilt imposed on me... and people distance themselves from me... it's harder for me to make friends or get a job. Really unfair on my part.
Blockup, thanks for your view. I highly respect any Muslim that stands up against the radicals publicly.
A question though, from your point of view. Do you feel there is a solution to the problem of the radicals? I was pretty blown away in the interview I mentioned above when the interviewer asked Abu Saif if there was anyway they could be friends, and he said yea if you become Muslim. Basically saying the only way there will be peace is if the whole world converts to Islam.
| BlockUp wrote: |
For me, as a Muslim, I have seen the general view of Muslims go downhill since 7/11. And the idiot fanatics aren't helping one bit. Claiming to speak for the Ummah (the whole of the Muslim community), yet they do nothing but preach their own hatred.
Suicide is forbidden in Islam. That means suicide bombers are anything but martyrs. And as for a violent religion; the world Islam means peace. And we use "As-Assalamu Alaykum", meaning peace upon you, to great each other. That is one of the very commendable things about Islam.
To any non-Muslims; I feel I must apologize for the way some Muslims have been led to fanaticism although I fully defend myself... I am not in contact with any such people and I have no control over what other may decide to do. But still, some people may hold me accountable... so what can I do? Saying sorry for something I did not do is not worth anything but some political leaders here in the UK say that more Muslims should try and prevent fanaticism. But it's not as easy as it sounds, I guarantee you.
I also believe that the media has helped forge this perverse view of Islam, completely against the original teachings. I see nothing but fanatics on the news. Also, we always hear about the
Islamic radicals... they are not Islamic at all, far from it...
Sadly this is the way life is. I have no control over which path other Muslims decide to choose. This does not mean I commend the radicals, but I cannot be held responsible for them either. Now I have the feeling of guilt imposed on me... and people distance themselves from me... it's harder for me to make friends or get a job. Really unfair on my part. |
Thanks. It's nice to see someone speak up once in a while. I know you put yourself at risk.
Unfortunately, there are many MANY more Muslims who are speaking louder with the opposite voice.
Until we start seeing more Muslims speaking AND ACTING against the radicals than we see speaking AS the radicals, we can only go by what we see, not by what we "hear" from the "good" Muslims.
In other words, until more Muslims are speaking out AGAINST terrorism than there are speaking out FOR terrorism, your claims that terrorism is not the Muslim way are lost and worthless. I'm sorry, I try to know the difference, but actions speak louder than words, and right now, there is way more action that is pro terrorism than there is anti-terrorism by Muslims.Well, sorry I haven't come back to this thread!
I'm really encouraged to see some positive responses to my post. But I say the same thing to anyone who asks me about this subject.
As to coolclay's question...
| coolclay wrote: |
| Do you feel there is a solution to the problem of the radicals? I was pretty blown away in the interview I mentioned above when the interviewer asked Abu Saif if there was anyway they could be friends, and he said yea if you become Muslim. Basically saying the only way there will be peace is if the whole world converts to Islam. |
Abu Saif is, unsurprisingly, wrong. The Qur'an says:
“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.” [Surah al-Baqarah: 256]
Honestly, I do not see a solution. These people will continue to say whatever they like and brainwash the vulnerable and the young. I cannot be held responsible for them, and neither can anyone else, Muslim or non-Muslim.
I'd also like to reply to Billy Hill's post above me.
Once again he has proved his ignorance and unwillingness to research a topic before making a comment about it.
| Billy Hill wrote: |
| Thanks. It's nice to see someone speak up once in a while. I know you put yourself at risk. |
At risk?! Who from? Let me assure you, I've expressed this view to at least 100 people, a lot of them Muslim, since I have a few friends at the mosque. They all seem to agree wholeheartedly. Sorry to disappoint you Billy, but even as a Muslim I don't have any radical friends.
| Billy Hill wrote: |
| Until we start seeing more Muslims speaking AND ACTING against the radicals than we see speaking AS the radicals, we can only go by what we see, not by what we "hear" from the "good" Muslims. |
Erm, have you even Googled this?
Muslims Against Terrorism
That's 2,110,000 results...
And countless rallies.
But of course, the media doesn't report these, so how would the public know? So what way do you propose we act against the radicals, Billy Hill? Kill them? Solution #1: The West stops funding and defending the terrorist Israeli government.
Solution #2: The West stops imperialising the Middle East as if we're making things better...when we're doing nothing but fueling the desire for young Muslim men to want to strap bombs on themselves and kill.
| liljp617 wrote: |
| Solution #1: The West stops funding and defending the terrorist Israeli government. |
LOL! Since when the West means USA? The only staunch supporter of Israel is US. EU states have either a neutral stance or a somewhat more favorable one to Palestinians than to Israelis.
"terrorist Israeli government"? wow! Name one government that did not terrorize either some of its citizens ("wrong" political or ethnic background) or the citizens of other "enemy" states?
| Quote: |
| Solution #2: The West stops imperialising the Middle East as if we're making things better...when we're doing nothing but fueling the desire for young Muslim men to want to strap bombs on themselves and kill. |
In my opinion, the current situation exists for not "imperializing" enough the Middle East. We should have sponsored (or created) people like Ataturk in Turkey at the beginning of the XX century. Instead we let these countries be ruled medievally by princes and kings and now we reap the fruits of our lack of real involvement.
Even now what do we do to support leaders/movements/political parties that are moderate/favorable to the West? | smarter wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | | Solution #1: The West stops funding and defending the terrorist Israeli government. |
LOL! Since when the West means USA? The only staunch supporter of Israel is US. EU states have either a neutral stance or a somewhat more favorable one to Palestinians than to Israelis.
"terrorist Israeli government"? wow! Name one government that did not terrorize either some of its citizens ("wrong" political or ethnic background) or the citizens of other "enemy" states? |
Most European countries are pretty good allies with the US. Meaning they generally support our stance (or act like they do), which means radical Muslims are as much against Europe as they are against the US. Past attacks and listed motives/goals by radical Islam shows that.
You missed the point, I think, on the second part. You're right, there are few modern day powerful countries that do not fit the label of "terrorists" at some point in their history and even modern history. I dislike the word terrorist as much as anyone else...I only used it in that case because it fits into the rhetoric of this conversation.
The point I was trying to make is that when the Palestinians commit acts of violence against Israel, it's a "terrorist act," a brutal act, an inexcusable act. When Israel commits the exact same act of violence against Palestinians, they are simply defending themselves and are doing nothing wrong (because the UN backs them strongly..particularly the US). Israel has literally dozens and dozens of acts that step on UN resolutions and they have and continue to completely ignore multiple UN resolutions....yet they're still funded heavily and defended at all costs.
| smarter wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | | Solution #2: The West stops imperialising the Middle East as if we're making things better...when we're doing nothing but fueling the desire for young Muslim men to want to strap bombs on themselves and kill. |
In my opinion, the current situation exists for not "imperializing" enough the Middle East. We should have sponsored (or created) people like Ataturk in Turkey at the beginning of the XX century. Instead we let these countries be ruled medievally by princes and kings and now we reap the fruits of our lack of real involvement.
Even now what do we do to support leaders/movements/political parties that are moderate/favorable to the West? |
Disagree. Imperialism = oppression = retaliation. Especially at a time like this where the movement of radical Islam is so strong and only gaining more support and power with US/Western presence.
I don't claim to have direct answers. I just know that the paths the US and our allies are on is not leading to a good conclusion...so why continue it? Continuing to back and heavily aid a nation of stolen land isn't making things any better and, to me, is really the root of modern day terrorism. I see no reason to continue it.It is nice to see both coolclay and BlockUp's replies. I have to agree with both of them.
Not only radical Muslims, but if people of all religions realize that religion is a personal thing, and don't try to force it upon other people (maybe within their own family, is probably a different thing), almost all conflicts in the world starting from Christ's crucifixion by Jews, to the Crusades in the 11th century to the present day Al-Queda conflicts, could all have been avoided...
| ganesh wrote: |
It is nice to see both coolclay and BlockUp's replies. I have to agree with both of them.
Not only radical Muslims, but if people of all religions realize that religion is a personal thing, and don't try to force it upon other people (maybe within their own family, is probably a different thing), almost all conflicts in the world starting from Christ's crucifixion by Jews, to the Crusades in the 11th century to the present day Al-Queda conflicts, could all have been avoided... |
Do you realy think all of above mentioned incidents were/are have a religious colour ?
I realy don't think so.
Throughout history a lot of battles have been fought in the name of religion.
BUT all realy turned around money or land covered with a religious saus.
A movie I liked was "Kingdom of Heaven" with Orlando Bloom. This tells the story of the city of Jerusalem. A city important for Muslims, Christians and Jews.
But at the end it turns out that the war is not realy for the religions. (note these religions have lived peacefully in coexistence in the past)I don't know why we just don't all get along & ask God when we're dead as to who was right and what not. Take a gamble. Follow your faith if you have one to the fullest of its compassion and harmony. If you make it to the so-called heaven, then you're right. Otherwise, what does it matter how one from another religion lives on Earth. I've always found this quite stupid. But yes, it's all about land and resources.
| ganesh wrote: |
It is nice to see both coolclay and BlockUp's replies. I have to agree with both of them.
Not only radical Muslims, but if people of all religions realize that religion is a personal thing, and don't try to force it upon other people (maybe within their own family, is probably a different thing), almost all conflicts in the world starting from Christ's crucifixion by Jews, to the Crusades in the 11th century to the present day Al-Queda conflicts, could all have been avoided... |
And its different because?Islam worries me in that although only a minority are fanatical the majority is nearly always silent in condemning the fanatics for their violence and sometimes even condones and praises it.
Unless mainstream Islam can get to grips with itself and it's place in the world their will always be problems between muslims and those who love freedom and democracy.
i have had lots of muslim friends. But for a few, on an overall basis, there is something wrong with them all! I am not able to say why or what, but they are not normal. This is my opinion.
| rshanthakumar wrote: |
| i have had lots of muslim friends. But for a few, on an overall basis, there is something wrong with them all! I am not able to say why or what, but they are not normal. This is my opinion. |
Define normal.
Exactly, there is no such thing.
Take your flaming elsewhere because it is NOT welcome here.
And that same goes for anyone else trying to start trouble
(yes, you do have the right to express your opinion. but don't try and claim your superior, it doesn't work. especially when you have no evidence to back it up), | wumingsden wrote: |
| rshanthakumar wrote: | | i have had lots of muslim friends. But for a few, on an overall basis, there is something wrong with them all! I am not able to say why or what, but they are not normal. This is my opinion. |
Define normal.
Exactly, there is no such thing.
Take your flaming elsewhere because it is NOT welcome here.
And that same goes for anyone else trying to start trouble
(yes, you do have the right to express your opinion. but don't try and claim your superior, it doesn't work. especially when you have no evidence to back it up), |
Totally agree with Wumingsden.
But still I would like to hear Rshantakumar's definintion of 'Normal'. So please give us YOUR definition.
One thing more, all expressions like 'normal, freedom, democracy, peace, ...' are soooo vague.
Just to give you one example: Under word Peace we have seen more death in f.e Iraq than under 'War'. So all descriptions for peace and war fall into nothing.
Same can be said about normal. You may think Muslim people are not normal, but who knows what other people think about you.
So please do not spread heatred. not here, not anywhereor me, as a Muslim, I have seen the general view of Muslims go downhill since 7/11. And the idiot fanatics aren't helping one bit. Claiming to speak for the Ummah (the whole of the Muslim community), yet they do nothing but preach their own hatred.
| Melsens wrote: |
| I have seen the general view of Muslims go downhill since 7/11 |
- I guess your referring to 9/11 and will answer as such.
I agree totally with this. Before 9/11 the majority of people I guess would have walked past a Muslim in the street and quite probably we wouldn't notice. Post 9/11 however, we are exposed to the idea that Muslims want to kill us or blow us up. The media condition us to make the psychological connection between Muslims and Terror which makes us more aware if we were to pass one in the street.
An interesting article here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/04/law.islam
Personally Muslims or Bin Laden for that matter had nothing to do with 9/11 but thats a whole different conversation. | Quote: |
The Muslim leader said he does not believe in democracy and insists there is no such thing as freedom of religion, "because freedom is an absolute term."
"Are we to say that Muslims can fully practice religion in America," he asked in an attempt to explain. "Say, for instance, I was a Muslim in America. Could I call for the destruction of the American government and establishment of an Islamic state in America? No. So where is the freedom of religion? There is none."
|
Good glory, this Anjem Choudary fellow must be the retarded. Maybe someone should explain to this jerk, that if he were a Muslim in America, he could call for the destruction of the American government - people do it all the time. And, as long as he didn't BREAK ANY LAWS, he could also try to establish an Islamic state.
This reminds me of the argument Islamic States use for NOT allowing freedom of religion, "We have to protect the ignorant people from being tricked out of Islam."
For anyone confused still about American freedom, it goes like this: You are free to do whatever you like - as long as it doesn't harm anyone else's freedom to do as they like. Simple, yet complex. | horseatingweeds wrote: |
| Quote: | The Muslim leader said he does not believe in democracy and insists there is no such thing as freedom of religion, "because freedom is an absolute term."
"Are we to say that Muslims can fully practice religion in America," he asked in an attempt to explain. "Say, for instance, I was a Muslim in America. Could I call for the destruction of the American government and establishment of an Islamic state in America? No. So where is the freedom of religion? There is none."
|
Good glory, this Anjem Choudary fellow must be the retarded. Maybe someone should explain to this jerk, that if he were a Muslim in America, he could call for the destruction of the American government - people do it all the time. And, as long as he didn't BREAK ANY LAWS, he could also try to establish an Islamic state. |
Hmm...as long as you don't threaten the President of course..
http://www.nriinternet.com/NRI_terrorist/USA/2006/3_Vikram_%20Buddhi_Threat_Bush.htm
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/03/03/1340201-la-man-accused-of-threatening-bush
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,326069,00.htmlYes, a direct threat. This doesn't count calling him or her incompetent or wrong or saying the Executive branch should be dissolved. You have to make a threat to his life - say you're going to assassinate.
"I'm going to kill the President" would be prosecutable.
"I'm going to overthrow the President and install my own idea of a government" is not illegal.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
"I'm going to kill the President" would be prosecutable. |
I know this must be a bit farfetched and a result of watching too many movies, but wonder whether the CIA with their sophisticated tracking and searching systems would have bots on the Internet to pick up on sentences like the above? I am beginning to get the feeling that the Internet has become so massively intuitive, viz search-engines like Google and Yahoo, that anything is possible. 
| SonLight wrote: |
Here is a disturbing piece, suggesting the balance of views within Muslim communities could tip in favor of violent confrontation.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56503
| Quote: | The Muslim leader said he does not believe in democracy and insists there is no such thing as freedom of religion, "because freedom is an absolute term."
"Are we to say that Muslims can fully practice religion in America," he asked in an attempt to explain. "Say, for instance, I was a Muslim in America. Could I call for the destruction of the American government and establishment of an Islamic state in America? No. So where is the freedom of religion? There is none."
|
|
Many Muslims believe in that democracy is not fair. But, in my own opinion it's fair, if it is practiced as is.
| SonLight wrote: |
| Will Moslems who seek peaceful coexistence with non-Muslims speak up to say so? I hope they will. |
So do you think blaming prophet Muhammad (POABUH) for terrorism and drawing Him humiliatingly on papers was FREEDOM OF RELIGION or peaceful coexistence?
FriHost is free from religion. Let's never quote every religious topics that increases the tension.
In my opinion a few Muslims believe in this, as a few of non-Muslims see that Muslims want to establish a Muslim state in the US.
Nowadays, democracy has a bug running in the background, let's wait until the third edition. | deanhills wrote: |
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
"I'm going to kill the President" would be prosecutable. |
I know this must be a bit farfetched and a result of watching too many movies, but wonder whether the CIA with their sophisticated tracking and searching systems would have bots on the Internet to pick up on sentences like the above? I am beginning to get the feeling that the Internet has become so massively intuitive, viz search-engines like Google and Yahoo, that anything is possible. |
I would bet on it. You can pick up phrases like this with a simple google. We know that the NSA/CIA routinely monitors cell-phone calls and emails via the Echelon network, so it is not too much of a stretch to imagine Echelon also covers web traffic. | deanhills wrote: |
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
"I'm going to kill the President" would be prosecutable. |
I know this must be a bit farfetched and a result of watching too many movies, but wonder whether the CIA with their sophisticated tracking and searching systems would have bots on the Internet to pick up on sentences like the above? I am beginning to get the feeling that the Internet has become so massively intuitive, viz search-engines like Google and Yahoo, that anything is possible. |
Movies? What are you talking about? I'm talking about US Code Title 18 Part I Chapter 41 - 871
Here's an article for you: http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa040398.htm
And I don't see what's far fetched about the CIA, or any other agency, using search bots to build an index of threatening web traffic. You could probably find five people on this for by the end of the day that could build a simple system that would do that.
