| Quote: |
Taken from Islamonline.net | By Harun Yahya
Your Lord says:
Glorious Qur'an [40:60]: Call on Me and I will answer you. Those who are too proud to worship Me will enter Hell abject.
According to the Qur'an, prayer, meaning "calling, requesting, seeking help," is a person's turning sincerely to Allah, and seeking help from Him, the Almighty, the Compassionate and Merciful, in the knowledge that he is a dependent being. Illness is one of those instances when a person feels this dependence most and draws closer to Allah. Furthermore, sickness is a test, devised in His wisdom, that takes place by His will, and is a warning to remind people of the transience and imperfection of this life, and is also a source of recompense in the hereafter for the patient and submissive.
Those without faith, on the other hand, imagine that the way to recovery is through doctors, medicines or the advanced technological capabilities of modern science. They never pause to think that it is Allah Who causes their physical systems to function when they are in good health, or Who creates the healing medicines and doctors when they are ill. Many turn only to Allah when they arrive at the opinion that doctors and medicines are inadequate. People in such situations seek help only from Allah, realizing that only He can free them from their difficulty. Allah has revealed this mindset in a verse:
Glorious Qur'an [10:12]: When harm touches man, he calls on Us, lying on his side or sitting down or standing up. Then when We remove the harm from him he carries on as if he had never called on Us when the harm first touched him. In that way We make the deeds of the profligate appear good to them.
The fact is, however, that even in good health, or without tribulations or other difficulties, a person must pray and give thanks to Allah for the comforts, good health and all the other blessings He has imparted.
One very important aspect of prayer is this: In addition to praying out loud, it is also important for a person to make every effort to pray through his or her deeds. Prayer by action means doing everything possible to attain a certain wish. For example, in addition to praying, a sick person may also have to visit an expert doctor, use medicines that will be of benefit, and receive hospital treatment if necessary or some other form of special care. Because Allah has linked everything that happens in this world to specific causes, everything in the world and in the universe happens in accordance with these causes. Therefore, the individual must take the requisite measures in accordance with these causes, and yet await the outcome from Allah, with humility, submission, and patience, in the knowledge that it is He Who brings about their results.
The positive effect of faith and prayer on the sick and the way these accelerate treatment is a matter that has attracted the attention of and is recommended by doctors. Under the heading "God and Health: Is Religion Good Medicine? Why Science Is Starting to Believe," the November 10, 2003, edition of the famous magazine Newsweek took the curative effect of religion as its cover story. It reported that faith in God raised people's morale and helped them recover more easily, and that science had also begun to believe that people with religious faith recover more easily and quickly. According to a Newsweek survey, 72 percent of Americans say they believe that praying can cure someone and that prayer facilitates recovery. Research in Great Britain and the USA has also concluded that prayer reduces patients' symptoms and accelerates the recovery process.
According to research conducted at Michigan University, depression and stress are observed to a lesser extent in the devout. And, according to findings at Rush University in Chicago, the early death rate among people who worship and pray regularly is some 25 percent lower than in those with no religious convictions. Another study conducted on 750 people, who underwent angiocardiography, proved scientifically the "curative power of prayer." It was established that the death rate among heart patients who prayed decreased by 30 percent within a year after their operations.
Examples of the prayers mentioned in the Qur'an are these:
Glorious Qur'an [21:83,84]: And Job when he called out to his Lord, "Great harm has afflicted me and You are the Most Merciful of the merciful," We responded to him and removed from him the harm which was afflicting him and restored his family to him, and the same again with them, as a mercy direct from Us and a Reminder to all worshippers.
Glorious Qur'an [21:87,88]: And Jonah when he left in anger and thought We would not straiten him. He called out in the pitch darkness, "There is no god but You! Glory be to You! Truly I have been one of the wrongdoers." We responded to him and rescued him from his grief. That is how We rescue the believers.
Glorious Qur'an [21:89,90]: And Zachariah when he called out to his Lord, "My Lord, do not leave me on my own, though You are the Best of Inheritors." We responded to him and gave him Yahya, restoring for him his wife's fertility. They used to hasten to good actions, calling out to Us in yearning and in awe, and humbling themselves to Us.
Glorious Qur'an [37:75]: Noah called out to Us and we are the best to respond!
As has already been stated, prayer must not only be for alleviation of sickness or other mundane problems. A sincere believer must always pray to Allah and accept whatever comes from Him. The fact that the benefits of prayer revealed in many verses of the Qur'an are now being recognized scientifically once again reveals the miraculous nature of the Qur'an. |
| gh0stface wrote: |
| If you plan on copy and pasting an article from another source, please use the quotation marks. Failure to do so can result in a banning. Please reread the rules and FAQs if you haven't already done so. |
Whats the point of this thread? Quoting some lines from to say prayer dose something studies and experiments has said it dose not?
I did read somewhere, I think it was "the secret gospel of thomas", that people with a lot of faith have been cured of horrible illnesses, almost miraculously.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
| Whats the point of this thread? Quoting some lines from to say prayer dose something studies and experiments has said it dose not? |
You may believe that prayer doesn't help, but I would rather my friends and family pray for me if I were in a situation where I needed it. Just as I'll pray for my friends and family when they need it. If someone here asks for prayer, I'll gladly give it.
Come here and ask the doctors and nurses if they feel prayer helps. Probably 9 out of 10 will say yes. It may not be the most scientific, but I've seen some things happen because of prayer. | livilou wrote: |
| Come here and ask the doctors and nurses if they feel prayer helps. Probably 9 out of 10 will say yes. It may not be the most scientific, but I've seen some things happen because of prayer. |
Thats anecdotal, anecdotal evidence is not evidence. Human memory is extremely fallible, it is easily manipulated by beliefs, preconceived ideas and misconceptions. For example a person who thinks that he knows who's calling him before he answers the phone (with out caller ID) will only remember his hits ans forget his misses but if the guy write down who he thinks is calling before he answers and who actually called and then looked at the numbers (hits and misses) he would see that his misses are in the range of guessing. Another example is the lunar effect, multiple studies have shown that the fazes of the moon have no effect on human behaver yet people (police, E.R. doctors and people in those type of jobs) still believe that during the full moon theres more crime, more births and so on and on fool moon nights they remember more crimes happening, children being Born and so on. | livilou wrote: |
| The Conspirator wrote: | | Whats the point of this thread? Quoting some lines from to say prayer dose something studies and experiments has said it dose not? |
You may believe that prayer doesn't help, but I would rather my friends and family pray for me if I were in a situation where I needed it. Just as I'll pray for my friends and family when they need it. If someone here asks for prayer, I'll gladly give it.
Come here and ask the doctors and nurses if they feel prayer helps. Probably 9 out of 10 will say yes. It may not be the most scientific, but I've seen some things happen because of prayer. |
It's quite possible that many medical professionals would say that prayer is useful - I wouldn't like to comment on that (other than to say that I am fairly sure 9/10 is a large overstatement of the numbers).
There is certainly no harm in praying, as long as it is not seen as either a substitute/replacement for medical treatment, or portrayed as a serious possible cure in terminal cases - both of those are, in my opinion, abusive and immoral.
There have been many studies into the efficacy of prayer over the last decades and I am unaware of any that have shown statistically significant for any such effect, other than some recent studies which are very largely held to be fundamentally flawed. In fact most such studies, even the ones showing no effect, have been flawed in one way or another - mainly because they failed to implement a true double-blind experimental protocol which is necessary for any definitive and reliable conclusions.
Recent(ish) studies which seem reasonably competently carried out would include :
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?ex=1182484800&en=6b3e142bcaa424db&ei=5070
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2005/07/25/a_prayer_for_health/
There are also some basic questions which I have never seen answered satisfactorily by those who believe in the efficacy of prayer. A few of these would be :- Why does God discriminate against certain types of injury/disease when performing miraculous cures? No amputees have ever been healed to my knowledge, neither have any instances of severe mental disability. The same applies to profound genetic disorders, gross bodily and facial disfigurement, dwarfism/giantism and a whole host of other conditions where the symptoms are immediately visible, the condition is demonstrably physically rooted (either completely or mainly) and there is no chance of a misdiagnosis or mistake in the prognosis.
God apparently chooses to ignore these conditions. Why should that be? - Why are the incidents of reported miraculous cures so time dependant? An analysis of reported miracles shows a steady and increasing decrease in the reports of such cures over time?
- David Hume's 'Enquiry', written in 1777, made a strong case against miracles which has not, to my knowledge, been satisfactorily addressed to this day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Miracles | Quote: |
| There is certainly no harm in praying, as long as it is not seen as either a substitute/replacement for medical treatment, or portrayed as a serious possible cure in terminal cases - both of those are, in my opinion, abusive and immoral. |
There is harm. As long as prayers, herbalism, homeopathy and all that other crap are excepted as having an effect and are used along side real medicine there will be those who forsake real medicine for those. And thats the harm, those people, there children and those they convince to forsake real medicine for there crap are the victims. Not only of commonly excepted false ideas but of con artists and mad men who prey on people using these ides. | The Conspirator wrote: |
| Quote: | | There is certainly no harm in praying, as long as it is not seen as either a substitute/replacement for medical treatment, or portrayed as a serious possible cure in terminal cases - both of those are, in my opinion, abusive and immoral. |
There is harm. As long as prayers, herbalism, homeopathy and all that other crap are excepted as having an effect and are used along side real medicine there will be those who forsake real medicine for those. And thats the harm, those people, there children and those they convince to forsake real medicine for there crap are the victims. Not only of commonly excepted false ideas but of con artists and mad men who prey on people using these ides. |
Hmm...I did say that there is no harm IF it is not seen as....etc.
I would agree that there are certainly documented cases where religious adherence to praying, coupled with dogmatic objections to conventional medicine, have proven both dangerous and, in my own opinion, criminal. The most obvious case would be that of committed Jehovah Witnesses who, because of some belief that the soul is in the blood (or some such similar nonsense) have been known to not only refuse blood transfusions for themselves - which causes me no problems since I believe any competent adult should have complete freedom to refuse any treatment or medication they like - but some have also refused such treatment on behalf of their children. This latter I find indefensible. Granted these tend to be rare cases and, by their nature are hugely publicised, but such cases do occur. Recently there was the case of the sextuplets in Canada and previously there have been other similar cases in the news.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/01/31/bc-sextuplets.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/jw/jw215.html
http://www.huliq.com/16121/jehovahs-witnesses-child-custody-assistance
My view in these cases is quite simple and uncompromising. The parents in such cases should be charged with attempted manslaughter, the child or children should immediately be made Wards of Court and the assumption should be that the children will be permanently moved from the home situation since it clearly represents a threat to their physical well-being.
I support religious tolerance, despite my own lack of faith, but these types of case are way beyond any notions of personal religious freedoms and should be treated as such.
Fortunately, as I said to start, such cases are by no means common and I have no wish to tar other believers in other faiths with some smear based on a single fundamentalist sect of Christianity. I still think that prayer (as an extra, not a primary treatment) is OK. I personally see no prospect of it being effective but even if it only serves to stimulate a placebo effect then little harm is done.
I also think you need to be a bit careful about lumping all non-conventional medicine together. Herbal treatments, for example, form a large part of what we now regard as conventional medicine - many of our drugs started life as herbal remedies and even today new herbal and mineral compounds form a very important part of the work of the pharmaceutical industry. That is not to say that I think we should be visiting the local Heralth Food store rather than our Doctors - I don't - but neither are all herbalists cranks or charlatans and it would be unfair, I think, to lump them in that category.I know what your saying, your saying "whats the harm as long as they don't take it too far?" But there is harm, when its commonly excepted that prayer has a positive effect, the majority of the people will not take it too far but far more people will take it too far than if it was not commonly excepted. And thats the harm.
This is a larger issue than just prayer, this also involves the so called "alternative medicines", herbalism, homeopathy, chiropractic and so on. But the harm with those is grater than the harm of prayer (even when they are not being taken too far there are still negative side effects)
I personally does not really believe in that prayer itself can accelerate the treatment of sick. There is not really possible that you pray 1000 miles away and the prayer is received and the sick is cured. However, there is no harm by doing so for the others.
In my opinion, prayer in-direct can accelerate the treatment of sick becoz of the one who pray will gain or unleash his mental strenght on something that he/she was focus on. I could not really explain what is the changes of human's ability upon praying. Just like when someone are terribly sick and he pray for recovery. Upon the concentration in the mist of praying, the body actually undergo a change that will indirectly contribute to the healing. This is call the answer prayer. I do not know if I am correct in this case but this is my understanding and belief. Another example is that when someone is looking for an answer and he pray hard. Suddenly the mind enter a clear stage and he found the answer. That is another power of prayer.
| Seanwang wrote: |
I personally does not really believe in that prayer itself can accelerate the treatment of sick. There is not really possible that you pray 1000 miles away and the prayer is received and the sick is cured. However, there is no harm by doing so for the others.
In my opinion, prayer in-direct can accelerate the treatment of sick becoz of the one who pray will gain or unleash his mental strenght on something that he/she was focus on. I could not really explain what is the changes of human's ability upon praying. Just like when someone are terribly sick and he pray for recovery. Upon the concentration in the mist of praying, the body actually undergo a change that will indirectly contribute to the healing. This is call the answer prayer. I do not know if I am correct in this case but this is my understanding and belief. Another example is that when someone is looking for an answer and he pray hard. Suddenly the mind enter a clear stage and he found the answer. That is another power of prayer. |
One thing strikes me immediately here. Is that 1000 miles the distance that prayer must travel to reach God ? If so, do you know something we don't? Have you got his actual address or just a rough idea which country he is in ? 
(I'm only playing:-)
I would certainly agree that the mind has powers that we as yet do not really understand with any serious depth or rigour. Previously science has been unable to get much of a hold into how the brain works because we have had no objective tools to use and, instead, had to rely on introspection, unsupported theory and, to be frank, guesswork.
This whole area has only fairly recently become a genuinely scientific area pf study. Previously it was the domain of charlatans, spiritualists, religious fanatics and quacks (as well as some well-intentioned peope who tried to pretend they were doing real science in these areas, and may even have believed it themselves in some cases).
Recently, however, the subject of consciousness/perception/memory, etc, have come within reach of proper science and scientific method.
Advances in surgical techniques, information technologies and imaging technologies in particular now mean that proper experimental science can now begin to be done on subjects like these - I think this will accelerate.
Many believe (some passionately) in the pseudo-scientific approaches of the past - people like Jung and Freud for example. What they were doing was in no way science, it was pseudo-science. They may have been brilliant men (I remain unconvinced), they may even have devised useful and important insights and treatments (I have doubts about that), but they were poking around in the dark and nobody had a candle. Nobody, in fact, knew what a candle was and what to do with it if they found one. (Even if somebody had shown them a candle and how to light one, I sometimes think that many of these early psychologists were so contrary and opinionated that they would have been horrified, declared the saviour was a fraud and immediately set up a committee to investigate how the candle might be cured of this psychotic tendency to ignite, before falling into a bitter and violent disagreement over whether the candle's spluttering flame as it burned lower might be the result of some earlier trauma when it was still at the oil refinery, or whether it was a result of wick-envy.
There was no real attempt at proper science (by which I mean experimentally/observationally based, rigorous, repeatable, and most importantly testable development of theory). Introspection was the only real tool available and un-testable theories were the only outcome.
That will change, I believe, in my lifetime (say the next 20-30 years). I think the progress will be rapid once scientists really get into their stride and a good basic scientific foundation begins to emerge (rather like the way chemistry developed out of the alchemy of the middle ages and became genuine science rather than a load of sickly looking men in funny garb mixing things they didn't understand, using techniques they could not explain and trying to make something which they could never achieve and wouldn't have been able to repeat even if they had succeeded. Once science got a foothold, alchemy quickly changed from quackery and wishful thinking into the immensely powerful science of Chemistry. I think the same will happen in psychology/neurology but on a faster scale.
In answer to your last points - yes, I think the mind has many abilities we as yet do not understand at all, but I do not think there is anything magical, supernatural or paranormal about any of this and I am confident that science will one day be able to explain your brain and how it works with as much certainty as we can now, for example, explain with rigour and precision how tiny building blocks way too xmall to see can combine and interact to create the variety and number of elements we see in the periodic table.I don't see any harm in praying. I also believe that God let man learn science and medicine to help. If instead of praying for instant health, you pray that the doctor's hands be steady, or to make sure you go through the surgery okay, or something like that, what does that harm?
As far as instant healing from prayer, I believe it's possible, but I also believe that sometimes God will say no in response to your prayers. There may be a reason to go through whatever it is. And being told no is not a big deal. It's not like I have never had that happen to me at all either from God or man.
| livilou wrote: |
I don't see any harm in praying. I also believe that God let man learn science and medicine to help. If instead of praying for instant health, you pray that the doctor's hands be steady, or to make sure you go through the surgery okay, or something like that, what does that harm?
As far as instant healing from prayer, I believe it's possible, but I also believe that sometimes God will say no in response to your prayers. There may be a reason to go through whatever it is. And being told no is not a big deal. It's not like I have never had that happen to me at all either from God or man. |
It depends - what about situations where undoubtedly innocent people are prayed-for (babies would be the obvious example). You are saying that their suffering/death because there is some reason for them to endure it?prayer can be very powerful...
this subject makes me think of Edgar Caycee and his miraculous ability to heal people,
through his (own proclaimed) God given gifts....that and I'm pretty sure there are studdies
on the power of prayer that conclude: yes, it does make a difference.
I think it depends on why you are praying and what you are praying for...
you can pray all you want for someone's well being, and it will make a difference,
but if something bad (ie cancer or broken bones) is mean to happen in according
to god's will...it will be done.
it's kinda liek when jesus prayed to "if possible let this cup pass from me,
but YOUR will be done father." (or something simillar to that)
If we got what we prayed for all the time we wouldn't be doing what we are here to do.
anyhow..that's my ramble 
| KronikSindrome wrote: |
| prayer can be very powerful... |
Hmm...you say so, but I remain unconvinced and there is little evidence to support the assertion....
| Quote: |
this subject makes me think of Edgar Caycee and his miraculous ability to heal people,
through his (own proclaimed) God given gifts....that and I'm pretty sure there are studdies
on the power of prayer that conclude: yes, it does make a difference. |
On the other-hand I'm pretty sure that Caycee is a crank and that there are 2 studies* that I know of (I mean proper studies, not essays on a website) which claim prayer makes a difference - both comprehensively criticised in the professional media and neither what I would call convincing.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/avalos_17_3.html
* 1 is here
and another is here
| Quote: |
| I think it depends on why you are praying and what you are praying for... |
Why? Is there a list of acceptable things to pray for? Does God hear all prayers and then select according to some system or are unacceptable prayers incapable of reaching God at all?
| Quote: |
you can pray all you want for someone's well being, and it will make a difference,
but if something bad (ie cancer or broken bones) is mean to happen in according
to god's will...it will be done. |
It *will* make a difference? You seem very sure of that. Any evidence (not personal anecdotes though please)?
Given that the will of God is said to be ineffable (unknowable, put another way) then how is it that you are sure that the subject of the prayer matters at all and how can you say that praying for another person's well-being will make a difference. If the will of God is unknowable (as it must surely be if this argument is to apply to my example of the suffering innocent/baby above) then it means exactly that - we cannot know......
as I mentioned earlier, I don't think any of us KNOW anything.
I don't claim anything to be TRUTH, I think individual perception is the key....
I (personaly) beleive in mind over matter...if something is REAL to you, it is real....
that doesn't necessarily mean it is real (or true) for another person.....
If someone says "I'll pray for you about that", whether they do or not,
the thought alone (in my own head) can influence my life in real ways.
Even if just (scientificaly speaking) it's because the posative thought
process (in my own brain) that emits certain chemicals that are "good" for my body.....
As far as god hearing certain prayers and not others....
that's not what I meant at all.....and I remained vague about it because
(AGAIn) I think spiritualism is and should be a personal thing. What
I meant by that comment was that I (PERSONALY) beleive in a certain
degree of predestination (a DEGREE), that is to say we come here for
certain purposes as souls, that our life patterns are some what pre-ordained
and if we so chose to experience something here on earth and made that contract
before we even came here...then it will be fullfilled. I do believe in a degree of fate....
that does not mean that everyone else should...just that I should, because it's good for me.
I don't ever try to prove anything, or argue anything.....
what I beleive is what I beleive, and no one else can understand
exactly what or why that is....except for me....and that's how it should be. (I THINK)
anyway...I totally dig Edgar Caycee and have read enough information
and individual testimony to be convinced...that doesn't mean everyone else should...
that means that I've learned and grown personaly from beleiving in his ability...
even if based on falsifications...why would you begrudge me that?
and yes I do feel that every second of suffering on this earth IS a means to an end....
what means and what end? that again is something personal and I wouldn't even
bother sharing it...I think everyone needs to come to thier own conclusions...
if your conclusion is that there is no god and things are completely random and meaningless....
if that is what works, what is good, for you....then that is right for you. party on wayne
this is all the argument you'll get from me as far as atheists go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4 
(again, I don't personaly care for organized religion let alone organized ANYTHING)You are, as you rightly point out, of course entitled to your own world-view and I would not dream of saying otherwise. I personally disagree with it and was trying to drag out some points of difference, but if you would rather not do that then there is no problem and I will leave you to your beliefs with no hard-feelings:-)
well yyeaaahh...cause I mean I could explain what I think about all this stuff.....
but I don't really think it's neccessary......and...I did have a long day...goin to my
crap job interviews.....(it seems I am predestined to be a coffee whorrrruuhhrrrrrrrryeah/clerk haha)
and my brain feels kinda fuzzy......
maybe we can both elaborate our thoughts some other time eh?
I wasn't offended by your comment at all...I hope I didn't come off that way...
I was just trying to re-afirm that I don't put all that much weight in anything I say....
and was by no means hoping anyone else would
anyhow...you rock, and so do the rest of the people here...
I like that it's such a diverese group yet still accepting and respecting of eachother....
so yah...rock on! and pray for me? heh 
| KronikSindrome wrote: |
| so yah...rock on! and pray for me? heh |
Well...best I can do is offer the Atheist Prayer :
Our brains, which art in our heads,
Treasured be thy name,
Thy reasoning come, thy best be done
On earth, as it is.
Give us this day new insights to help relieve suffering and pain.
Lead us not into para-normality and deliver us from fallacy.
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the reason,
And although thy power be limited
And thou art not always glorious
You are the best evolutionary adaptation we have
to help us and our planet, for ever and ever
So Be It
Prayer does work. I am not Muslim but I do believe prayer works. Prayer is giving the person your praying for the ability to grab God's power and be healed. God is a healer and a lover.
| skipz wrote: |
| Prayer does work. I am not Muslim but I do believe prayer works. Prayer is giving the person your praying for the ability to grab God's power and be healed. God is a healer and a lover. |
Repeating the same thing over and over is a method which we Educators once used when teaching, so I suppose I cannot be too critical of this 'rote' method of asserting truth.
I have to point out, though, that simply stating that something works is never convincing unless supported by some evidence - even when a number of people repeat the same statement.
Prayer does work! That is a statement of fact which is not purely a matter of faith, it is a testable posit, a scientific statement. OK - we would have to define what you mean by 'work' and how to measure it, but the point is generally valid. Unless you can support the statement with something other than statements of faith or anecdotal remarks, it will still be a scientific statement, but it will be a bad and unjustified one.
I cannot and do not argue with matters which come down to only belief, since I do not have such faith and I cannot usefully contribute (such discussions assume a position I cannot adopt and therefore I have nothing useful to contribute and should keep quiet - as I try to do).
Matters that make testable posits, however, cross over into science and should, therefore, be prepared to be tested and judged according to scientific method and rules. Most religious people argue that this is not appropriate or desirable, and I tend to agree with that view. This is why bald statements of 'fact' which are supported by nothing other than conviction or faith, should be avoided in general debate. They do not advance the debate and often sidetrack or confuse issues. | Bikerman wrote: |
| livilou wrote: | I don't see any harm in praying. I also believe that God let man learn science and medicine to help. If instead of praying for instant health, you pray that the doctor's hands be steady, or to make sure you go through the surgery okay, or something like that, what does that harm?
As far as instant healing from prayer, I believe it's possible, but I also believe that sometimes God will say no in response to your prayers. There may be a reason to go through whatever it is. And being told no is not a big deal. It's not like I have never had that happen to me at all either from God or man. |
It depends - what about situations where undoubtedly innocent people are prayed-for (babies would be the obvious example). You are saying that their suffering/death because there is some reason for them to endure it? |
Actually, yes. The Bible says that all things work together for good for those that believe in Him. Example, my husband had cancer in his eye and had to have it removed. Is it something I would wish on anyone else? Of course not!!! But several of his friends have gone to have their eyes checked because of what he went through just to be safe. Why? Because it's not common knowledge that you can get melonoma cancer in the eye. There are no symptoms sometimes, no warning at all actually. Has my husband done something bad to have this happen to him? NO! I don't think that God let's us get sick to punish us. Bad things happen to people all the time and God had nothing to do with it. A man or woman got behind the wheel of a car and decided to drive drunk. All the chemicals we use now cause 99% of the sicknesses in the world, at least I think so.
There is one point in your past that you can use to give hope or encouragement to someone else that is going through the same thing now. This thing you went through, would you ever wish it on anyone else? I honestly doubt it. Do you wish it had never happened? Of course. Can you use it positively? Yes. You can talk about this from personal experience to someone that has never been through it or may be going through it now.
Life is what you make of it. You can constantly obsess on the bad, or you can try and look at the positive things. Life is too short to only see the bad things, but when bad things happen look at what good can come out of it, if only your willing to look for it.I can just say that I have personally seen many persons with sickness get better rapidly by prayer, and many of my friends have seen it happen too. As the Holy Bible says, the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective (or something like that). I do not think though that it's something that "works every time", because it obviously doesn't, but why it does not, we do not know, only God does. I do not believe that if someone does not get better by prayer, it is because that they (or the person praying) has a too weak faith or anything.
Actually there is a lot of scientifically gathered evidence that turning to God does help with a person's physical and mental health. Those with religious beliefs have extended lifespans and higher rates of recovery from serious illness. To quote McCullough author of the Oxford University Press published handbook on the subject, who reviewed 42 studies involving over 126,000 people looking into the effect of religious activity on serious illness such as cancer and heart disease to find:
| McCullough wrote: |
| The odds of survival for people who rated higher on measures of public and private religious involvement were 29% higher than those people who scored lower on such measures. |
Some example references:
# Koenig HG. Religion, spirituality, and medicine: application to clinical practice. JAMA. 2000;284:1708.
# Post SG, Puchalski CM, Larson DB. Physicians and patient spirituality: professional boundaries, competency, and ethics. Ann Intern Med. 2000;132:578-583.
# Koenig HG, McCullough ME, Larson DB. Handbook of Religion and Health. New York: Oxford University Press; 2000.
# Lo B, Quill T, Tulsky J. Discussing palliative care with patients. Ann Intern Med. 1999;130:744-749.
# Matthews DA, McCullough ME, Larson DB, Koenig HG, Swyers JP, Milano MG. Religious commitment and health status: a review of the research and implications for family medicine. Arch Fam Med. 1998;7:188-124.
Enjoy! | jharsika wrote: |
| I did read somewhere, I think it was "the secret gospel of thomas", that people with a lot of faith have been cured of horrible illnesses, almost miraculously. |
That point of view is the the ultimate one according to the cure of all the illnesses. All Miracles lay on faith to be cured.
Me for instance, I'm not ill, just because i believe and pray evreday, to improve my faith. My father did that and he is not ill since almost 10 years.Prayer is one of the ways of channelizing universal energy towards a particular goal. There are other ways too. But prayer is a simple way which available to all without any special training or preparation. All you neeeed is strong faith and intense desire.
People in this thread have been using allot of anecdotes as evidence. Anecdotes are not evidence. Its studies, experiments and carefully documented observations that are evidence and they say that prayer doesn't help any one. Anecdotes are not evidence. Why? People have a thing called confirmation bias, they remember certain things and not others for instance a person will remember when they got what they prayed for but not when they didn't. Another problem is not giving credit to the doctors and medicine that actually dose things. for instance person is very sick goes to the doctor, the doctor prescribes him medicine, he gets the medicine and taken the medicine and his family prays for him. He gets better. "PRAYER WORKS! It saved him" of course it was the medicine, not the prayer that made him well but they give credit to prayer.
People do these things and thats why anecdotes are not evedence.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
People in this thread have been using allot of anecdotes as evidence. Anecdotes are not evidence. Its studies, experiments and carefully documented observations that are evidence and they say that prayer doesn't help any one. Anecdotes are not evidence. Why? People have a thing called confirmation bias, they remember certain things and not others for instance a person will remember when they got what they prayed for but not when they didn't. Another problem is not giving credit to the doctors and medicine that actually dose things. for instance person is very sick goes to the doctor, the doctor prescribes him medicine, he gets the medicine and taken the medicine and his family prays for him. He gets better. "PRAYER WORKS! It saved him" of course it was the medicine, not the prayer that made him well but they give credit to prayer.
People do these things and thats why anecdotes are not evedence. |
The effectiveness of prayer is based on the level of faith and anecdotes help to increase that faith. certainly can't be treated as evidence but they are integral part of the prayer system. I don't know if a person can be cured only on the basis of prayers since i haven't seen it on first hand basis. But i have seen people moving into positive frame of mind because of prayers etc. and it does help in recovery. Its an accepted fact in medical science that positive mental attitude is necessary in any treatment.
An interesting point is that medical science uses the same principle of faith when doctors give placebos to the patients. Con, I gave you many links in scientific literature. If you do not believe me, feel free to look yourself. If I may quote from the Handbook of Health and Religion, which details some 1,600 studies:
| Quote: |
| Religious beliefs and practices rooted within established religious traditions were found to be consistently associated with better health and predicted better health over time; in a few clinical trials, groups that received spiritual interventions experienced superior clinical outcomes compared with controls. |
To be clear, religious belief and practise is consistently correlated better health over the long term, and also in clinical trials when compared with placebos.
Don't take my word for it. Try looking for yourself.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=religion+and+health&btnG=Search | nopaniers wrote: |
Con, I gave you many links in scientific literature. If you do not believe me, feel free to look yourself. If I may quote from the Handbook of Health and Religion, which details some 1,600 studies:
| Quote: | | Religious beliefs and practices rooted within established religious traditions were found to be consistently associated with better health and predicted better health over time; in a few clinical trials, groups that received spiritual interventions experienced superior clinical outcomes compared with controls. |
To be clear, religious belief and practise is consistently correlated better health over the long term, and also in clinical trials when compared with placebos.
Don't take my word for it. Try looking for yourself.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=religion+and+health&btnG=Search |
Nether Pray nor a religus life has a positiv effect (id dosn't have a negitiv on ether (unless your part of a crazy religion))
Sure you may find a few studies that say that but if you do enough studies you'll find that a few will have difrent results, that dosn't mean anything, thats just probability.
http://skepdic.com/prayer.htmlLOL. Mate. Con. Seriously. I'm showing you scientific reviews which conclude religious practise has a positive effect on health. You reply with an atheist website? I thought you wanted to get away from bias.
I challenge you. Look up actual studies. They show a positive effect of religious practise. Find a review article or two and have a read. Use google-scholar. You don't even need to get out of your chair.
Its a skeptic site. Skeptic dose not equal atheist.
If you search hard enough you can find studies to support anything.
| Quote: |
| Use google-scholar. |
Yeah, thats a good place to look, on google. Right.
Google is a good place to find, sites about things, forum posts about things,blog posts about things, blogs about things, images, pretty much anything except for reliable facts, in comparison, Wikipedia (with its problems) is the source of all knowledge. Actually google-scholar is an index of peer reviewed papers, so I doubt you'll find many blogs on it. Pretty cool, huh?
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=religion+and+health&hl=en&lr=&btnG=Search
OK - let's consider the first few papers that I can get public access to on this page:
Paper 1. PubMed | Quote: |
| This paper reviews evidence for a relationship between religion and health. Hundreds of epidemiologic studies have reported statistically significant, salutary effects of religious indicators on morbidity and mortality. However, this does not necessarily imply that religion influences health; three questions must first be answered: "Is there an association?", "Is it valid?", and, "Is it causal?" Evidence presented in this paper suggests that the answers to these respective questions are "yes," "probably," and "maybe." |
Paper 2. American Physchology | Quote: |
| Substantial empirical evidence points to links between spiritual/religious factors and health in U.S. populations, although the processes by which these relationships occur are poorly understood, and evidence is sometimes exaggerated. Methodologically sound research on linkages among spirituality, religion, and health is warranted, feasible, and timely. |
Paper 3. Lancet | Quote: |
| Even in the best studies, the evidence of an association between religion, spirituality, and health is weak and inconsistent. |
Paper 4. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion | Quote: |
| The results show that religion may have both positive and negative effects on health, although in this research the positive effect was stronger. |
The picture would seem to me to be that :
1) There is evidence of a correlation between religion/spirituality and mortality
2) The evidence is persuasive but far from conclusive
3) That there is a causal relationship has not been established and only partial data is available on possible mechanisms for such a causation. As would be expected Bikerman is portraying the evidence as negatively as possible - in particular he omitted many statements that religion was associated with health benefits. I could easily do the same only with a positive bias quoting all the statements which highlight the positive statements. I have given a few from well respected reviews already. However, I doubt that will really convince anyone - and too much will presumably only convince you all that I'm also biased. Instead, look for yourself:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=religion+and+health&btnG=Search
It is important to point out to Con that there's more than anecdotal evidence of the positive health benefits of religious belief and practise.
PS. The Lancet quote is a "Viewpoint" so you probably shouldn't have included it. My apologies to Con, for something blog-like Which of the above summaries is distorted or biased? I simply selected the first entries that were published papers (not books) and available via html. I then summarised by extracting the main conclusion from the abstract in each case and checking it with the conclusion.
There are 3 issues:
1) Is there a correlation between religiousity/spirituality and health/mortality. Answer Yes.
2) Is there a causal relationship between the two. Correlation does not imply causation, obviously. There are many examples of correlations similar to this (many much stronger) which have no apparent causal link. A couple of examples would be:- Economists have long known that there is a very statistically significant correlation between skirt length and stock prices.
- The number of cavities/fillings in young children is strongly correlated with the size of their vocabulary.
If you have a study showing a causal relationship then present it. Otherwise the point stands and we may simply be seeing a correlation and mistaking it for a causal effect. It is perfectly possible, for example, that people likely to be religious also have a tendency to form habits and adopt lifestyles more conducive to a longer life than people likely to be atheist. I do not say that this is the case - nor did I in my previous posting. I acknowledge a correlation with health/mortality but there is simply not enough quality data to go much further and to pretend otherwise is misleading.
As for the Lancet article - I hadn't realised it was a Viewpoint article and acknowledge the correction. It is, however, a reasonable and, I think, balanced summary of much of the current evidence and I did not cherry-pick it to make a point. We have had people in this thread (Con) claiming there is no correlation. Realizing that religion and religious practise (churchgoing, prayer, ect) is associated with better health is a step forward.
Of the quotes you gave, only the fourth is about hard results. I would have only quoted results, rather than the author's opinions about whether they need more funding or not (eg. 2) | nopaniers wrote: |
| We have had people in this thread (Con) claiming there is no correlation. Realizing that religion and religious practise (churchgoing, prayer, ect) is associated with better health is a step forward. |
Why? Is realising there is a correlation between skirt length and stock prices to be considered a step forward?
Even if there is a causal link (and despite your talk of 'hard results', you have produced nothing to warrant that assumption) why would that be a step forward? You think atheists will now suddenly believe in God because they might live a bit longer?
| Quote: |
| Of the quotes you gave, only the fourth is about hard results. I would have only quoted results, rather than the author's opinions about whether they need more funding or not (eg. 2) |
Paper 1 was a completely fair summary of the paper - it is the authors own summary - the study is available on your link so anyone with the ability and inclination can check and decide for themselves.
Paper 4 summary contained no hard results either so I don't know why you single that one out.http://www.ebsconewsletter.com/jsmc/e_article000467810.cfm?x=b11,0,w
What ever its reason science has already started breaking major blockades in the mind to body connection, proving that overall emotion can effect the health and quicken the healing process.
Looking at this in a real world perspective and not from a TV evangelical type way its pretty easy to believe that prayer can effect the body, placing the person doing the prayer into a mindset of belief that activates the bodies ability to mend itself. I'm not putting my belief into the idea that one individual living across the states learns there grandma is sick and prays for them..which in turn healed her. I doubt metaphysics work that way.
what ever the practice prayer for those who believe in it, healing spells for those who practice paganism. Belief and the mind have a strong connection to the body so I wont rule out the strong possibility that it can help.
for those who believe that they can pray for a individual next door to get better, if that makes you happy and more at peace then that is probably the highest effect your going to get out of it. As I can understand that really the only effect its going to have is help somebody cope with a sickness of another.
Those that would like to place there money and hopes in something like a psychic surgeon , good luck and I hope that tumor doesn't metastasis too much
I would like to point to the newest findings of Harvard medical specialists on the mind body connection .
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6038621/site/newsweek/#storyContinued
I'll say it again. Google is good for finding things about things thats about it.
You won't to try and prove to any one that a religions person live long and is healthier, use a real pear reviewed journal, not google. Try googleing "pear reviewed journal" or find a reliable site that gets its information from pear reviewed journals and doesn't look only for those papers that support there opinion. | Bikerman wrote: |
There is certainly no harm in praying, as long as it is not seen as either a substitute/replacement for medical treatment, or portrayed as a serious possible cure in terminal cases |
I agree. I think prayer helps create positive feelings amongst those that are sick, and those that are doing the praying. If two individuals have identical illnesses, the individual with a positive attitude (i.e., "Everything is going good, and I will be getting better shortly") will heal/get better quicker than the individual with a negative attitude (i.e., "I don't know why they are even trying...it's not going to help"), all other things equal.
| Bikerman wrote: |
| Why does God discriminate against certain types of injury/disease when performing miraculous cures? No amputees have ever been healed to my knowledge, neither have any instances of severe mental disability..... |
I feel it is not who the prayer goes to that heals the individual (i.e., God), it is the attitudes and feelings the individual receives from praying that heals. So, prayer will not help an individual who has lost a limb simply because a positive attitude will not replace a limb. It's not physically possible.
These ideas are simply my opinions based on common sense and logic. Therefore, I do not have any research or citations to back up what I say. I would still be happy to discuss it further though.I still think prayer is just people talking to themselves.
