I tried posting in this forum for a long time, but every time I try to get my point across I get knocked down by the non-believers on the forums. They tend to tell me that I should leave everyone alone and not tell people what to do with their lives.
Okay, yet you can go and post topics like:
Killing babies... which says that if we believe in the afterlife, that we should kill our babies.
or
The god argument: Is there a God? which tried to disprove God's existence.
So tell me, how is this fair? If I can't express my faith in God, why can you try to hold me down and discourage that faith? It should be equal. We don't personally attack you when you try to do these thing, yet you come to our topics and bombard us with personal things.
Oh, and don't worry. I brought my fair share of research:
| mike1reynolds wrote: |
| Indi, you define God in such a way that anyone would be happy to deny your God, because your definition of God is one in which the lowest elements of humanity, the bigoted petty autocrats and school marms are elevated to highest divinity. |
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-73539.html
I know for a fact that Indi is an excellent thinker and poster. If his definition is so bad, then mine must seriously suck. Keep the topic on track, don't get personal.
| mike1reynolds wrote: |
| In other words, in order to prove that something exists, you must prove that it exists? Have you, [b]little mental one[/u], ever heard of circular reasoning? |
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-73769.html
Again, there's no need to get personal. Just stick with the topic.
| ainieas wrote: |
| I don't mean to offend anyone but reading throught his thread I was reminded of something one of my friends had once said - Those who aint getting any would go to any lenghts to justify why. |
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-31133-2.html
Really now? This is personal in it's own new way. Now it's getting into his personal life!
I've only listed a few, but if you just look around in the past posts and a few of the new ones, you'll find quite a few. Yes, there may be one or two rebuttals, but most are posted against Christians. Why can't Christians post their faith too?
As in the words of The Conspirator: | Quote: |
| Cause you should respect people enough not to convert them to your beliefs no matter how much you believe it... |
God bless 
,
Pampoon Ok...I found it a little hard to follow your citations etc. but I think I understand what you're trying to get across.
Here's my "judgement" on how things are...
Openness towards people who feel strongly about their religion is something that many people are getting increasingly bad at these days. Atheists generally despise Christians...who in turn despise people who believe in Islam.
Talking about religion in a public space with any other viewpoint than an atheist one, is getting ever closer to being something I would describe as a taboo...which of course is too bad because that's the only way we can make any progress towards understanding each other...by talking to each other!
Thankfully, (on frihost) this kind of thing can be prevented! When someone insults you personally, report the user. If someone insults your religion or makes unjust attacks on your beliefs...report the user. Hopefully, once the jerks are gone, us civilized people can have genuinely interesting, philosophically intriguing, and most importantly friendly conversations about religion.
I am personally pretty close to what you'd describe as an atheist - meaning that I prioritize scientific fact...and only use religion to describe what cannot be described in any other way, however I find religion is one of the most interesting subjects to discuss - both as an atheist and as an agnostic.
Don't be discouraged by jerks...the internet is full of them, so just ignore them...that's what I do You atheist and theist are such a close-minded people. Can't you see that you are all human beings with the right to believe whatever you want?
I quote Voltaire again:
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. "
| polis wrote: |
You atheist and theist are such a close-minded people. Can't you see that you are all human beings with the right to believe whatever you want?
I quote Voltaire again:
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. " |
Hm...I think you might have misunderstood his post...I think what he wants is exactly that: greater freedom to express his opinions without being "blasted" by atheists...
(also, everyone is either theist, atheist or somewhere inbetween surely ) | LukeakaDanish wrote: |
| polis wrote: | You atheist and theist are such a close-minded people. Can't you see that you are all human beings with the right to believe whatever you want?
I quote Voltaire again:
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. " |
Hm...I think you might have misunderstood his post...I think what he wants is exactly that: greater freedom to express his opinions without being "blasted" by atheists...
(also, everyone is either theist, atheist or somewhere inbetween surely ) |
I think you misunderstood mine.
BTW, the inbetween is called agnosticism | polis wrote: |
I think you misunderstood mine.
BTW, the inbetween is called agnosticism |
Yeah ok
Its just coz you used the word "you" it felt like you where directing your comment at the OP...i'm not sure you've done your research half as well as you think you have.
For starters, there is no such thing as atheist "faith". Atheism is not a religion, it is a category of beliefs. There are atheist religions, but not every atheist philosophy is a religion.
Second, this is a discussion forum, which means anything you post gets discussed. No one - atheist, Christian or otherwise - can expect to post an opinion without having it challenged. And everyone's posted opinions do get challenged, regularly. Look around. Atheists are being taken to task every bit as often as anyone else. If you express an opinion or belief, it will get discussed - that's just something you're going deal with if you want to participate in a discussion forum. The only way you can post about your religion and not have it challenged is if you don't post any opinions - for example, if you just post naked facts that cannot be debated - but if you do that, don't expect a discussion if there's nothing to be discussed.
Third, many of the topics most critical of Christianity and other religions are in fact posted by Christians (or members of other religions), not atheists. Examples here, here, here and here. You are blaming atheists when they are really not the only cause of the problem, thus exacerbating the divide between atheists and most religions artificially. In other words, when it comes to the endless bickering between atheists and religious people, you have made yourself part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Fourth, your examples leave much to be desired when considered in the context of your point. Of the three examples you have given one has nothing to do with theism or atheism at all, and the other two are examples of theists verbally abusing atheists. In fact the person you have quoted is one of the most rabid and offensive bigots against atheism (and Islam, among other things) on FriHost today, and has a cabal of bigots that support his hate-filled posts (you can see an example of it in action here). Those examples you gave, far from demonstrating that there is a culture of atheist supremacy putting down innocent Christians, actually go a long way towards demonstrating the opposite. | Quote: |
| Why can Atheists express their faith, but not Christians? |
We can't, since we have none.
We can prove that we're right though, which you can't. Since religion is stupid and wrong. | catscratches wrote: |
| Quote: | | Why can Atheists express their faith, but not Christians? |
We can't, since we have none.
We can prove that we're right though, which you can't. Since religion is stupid and wrong. |
I am an atheist...however you are SO wrong its almost laughable!
In fact there is no way WHAT SO EVER, that science will ever be able to disprove a God that only exists outside our universe AND
...there is no scientist who has yet been able to explain why everything exist...we know all atoms and energy and atomic particles where created under the big bang, but no one knows how that was started - it is simply unexplainable, and one of the almost imminent explanations is some greater force than we can imagine in our world....much like a god!
Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean science agrees with you!
references:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/42
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/47
"What we still dont know" - documentary on BBC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmology
EDIT: Please don't call religion stupid and wrong, especially without arguing your case, A LOT of people will take offense to that AND you're breaking the frihost rules (not good)I don't care about the Frihost rules, ban me if you want to. Nor do I care about people's beliefs or the feelings of those who believe.
Ok, let me correct myself.
We can't prove we're right, we can prove that you're wrong though.
| catscratches wrote: |
I don't care about the Frihost rules, ban me if you want to. Nor do I care about people's beliefs or the feelings of those who believe.
Ok, let me correct myself.
We can't prove we're right, we can prove that you're wrong though. |
Prove there is no god. Do it. Right now.
(on a side note: you have hereby been reported to the admins)Christians have rule the politic for a long time, have churches in every town sometime other faiths have a chance. | Indi wrote: |
| i'm not sure you've done your research half as well as you think you have. |
No, I didn't do too much research on the topic. I just got a few here-and-there to somewhat give an idea of what I meant.
| Indi wrote: |
| For starters, there is no such thing as atheist "faith". Atheism is not a religion, it is a category of beliefs. There are atheist religions, but not every atheist philosophy is a religion. |
I know there is no "faith" of Atheism, but I was trying to compare the two (Religion and Atheism) and I needed a similarity, so I created one.
| Indi wrote: |
| Second, this is a discussion forum, which means anything you post gets discussed. No one - atheist, Christian or otherwise - can expect to post an opinion without having it challenged. And everyone's posted opinions do get challenged, regularly. Look around. Atheists are being taken to task every bit as often as anyone else. If you express an opinion or belief, it will get discussed - that's just something you're going deal with if you want to participate in a discussion forum. The only way you can post about your religion and not have it challenged is if you don't post any opinions - for example, if you just post naked facts that cannot be debated - but if you do that, don't expect a discussion if there's nothing to be discussed. |
Yes, I know this is a discussion forum. I'm not saying that I don't want to be challenged. That's how you teach and learn. I'm saying that I don't want to be personally attacked with things like, I don't know, "religion is stupid and wrong".
| Indi wrote: |
| Third, many of the topics most critical of Christianity and other religions are in fact posted by Christians (or members of other religions), not atheists. Examples here, here, here and here. You are blaming atheists when they are really not the only cause of the problem, thus exacerbating the divide between atheists and most religions artificially. In other words, when it comes to the endless bickering between atheists and religious people, you have made yourself part of the problem, not part of the solution. |
Yes, this I know, and in the original post of this I did include others such as pagans, islams, etc. However, I was forced to end that post before I could finish so on my second try I seemed to forgotten to add that. My mistake.
| Indi wrote: |
| Fourth, your examples leave much to be desired when considered in the context of your point. Of the three examples you have given one has nothing to do with theism or atheism at all, and the other two are examples of theists verbally abusing atheists. In fact the person you have quoted is one of the most rabid and offensive bigots against atheism (and Islam, among other things) on FriHost today, and has a cabal of bigots that support his hate-filled posts (you can see an example of it in action here). Those examples you gave, far from demonstrating that there is a culture of atheist supremacy putting down innocent Christians, actually go a long way towards demonstrating the opposite. |
Again, my mistake. I will further-more be sure to fool-proof my posts before posting them. I don't mean to me narrow-minded and only think towards Christians. I am one for equal rights. So when I posted this topic, though I didn't actually post it, I was thinking of the others too. I wanted this to help solve the constant personal attacks against all people (Christians, athesist, muslims, pagans, jews, etc.).
As to the other posts, thank you Luke for sticking up for me. I have followed you adivce and reported a few users I think are in this to flame.
@SyncM
I think that, at least here in America, the Christian political control over government is long-since dead. In the recent run for the White House, there is at least one non-Christian. It's not because we've riged the elections or have threatened all voters into electing Christians, it jsut happens that America is a religion government. It was, after all, founded in search of religious freedom.
@Polis
I agree, we should all have equal rights to post our thoughts. But please, if I come across as close-minded, don't take me as that. I try my best to make sure that I include everyone in my thoughts.
God bless ,
Pampoon | LukeakaDanish wrote: |
| ...there is no scientist who has yet been able to explain why everything exist...we know all atoms and energy and atomic particles where created under the big bang, but no one knows how that was started - it is simply unexplainable, and one of the almost imminent explanations is some greater force than we can imagine in our world....much like a god! |
Science does not seek to explain why everything exists, which explains the reason that no scientist has managed to explain it -- no scientist can endeavor to. "Why" questions are not within the scope of science and must be dealt with religiously or philisophically.
When it comes to the hows, however, it's not safe to say that something isn't scientifically explainable. There's no reason to believe that the mystery of how the big bang happened won't one day be solved. Physics is beginning to look beyond the big bang, I believe.
Last edited by Gagnar The Unruly on Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:13 am; edited 1 time in totalpampoon: Atheism is nit a faith, it is a category of belief and should never considered a faith, ever.
Your quoting of Mike, he attacks any one who disagree with him, in fact I'm surprised he has not been banned. And from what he said, he is not an atheist but his beliefs don;'t seem to make sense in any way. Its best to ignore him ( I learned that the hard way).
When you say something in a public forum, your opening up what you said to criticism by any one no matter what you post.
| Gagnar The Unruly wrote: |
Science does not seek to explain why everything exists, which explains the reason that no scientist has managed to explain it -- no scientist can endeavor to. "Why" questions are not within the scope of science and must be dealt with religiously or philisophically.
When it comes to the hows, however, it's not safe to say that something isn't scientifically explainable. There's no reason to believe that the mystery of how the big bang happened won't one day be solved. Physics is beginning to look beyond the big bang, I believe. |
Very true. But not entirely against what i said
Maybe physics can explain why the big bang happened, and what was before. In fact, the multi verse theory already attempts to do this. But from having absolutely nothing to having something...doesn't seem like something physicists can explain - instead philosophy (which indirectly also includes religion) gets a chance to play ball (as you yourself point out) and come up with solutions that somehow work with or without our scientifically proven world.
I think we agree...just wanted to clarify...(please correct me if that statement is wrong) | The Conspirator wrote: |
pampoon: Atheism is nit a faith, it is a category of belief and should never considered a faith, ever.
Your quoting of Mike, he attacks any one who disagree with him, in fact I'm surprised he has not been banned. And from what he said, he is not an atheist but his beliefs don;'t seem to make sense in any way. Its best to ignore him ( I learned that the hard way).
When you say something in a public forum, your opening up what you said to criticism by any one no matter what you post. |
I do agree with you, and everyone else who has said this. I know Atheism isn't a faith, and I apologized for posting it as so.
I have recently looked around and begun to notice that Mike is as you say. So it was my mistake of listing mainly his posts. He was just the first one I saw. I should have delved deeper, but I had a limit on time.
And I do understand that posting on a public forum opens up my thoughts to others, and I want them to respond with their thoughts so that we can actually get somewhere and not just repeat ourselves. However, it is not possible to do so if we are at each other's throats with personal things instead of focusing on the topic of the discussion.
God bless ,
Pampoon | pampoon wrote: |
I do agree with you, and everyone else who has said this. I know Atheism isn't a faith, and I apologized for posting it as so.
I have recently looked around and begun to notice that Mike is as you say. So it was my mistake of listing mainly his posts. He was just the first one I saw. I should have delved deeper, but I had a limit on time.
And I do understand that posting on a public forum opens up my thoughts to others, and I want them to respond with their thoughts so that we can actually get somewhere and not just repeat ourselves. However, it is not possible to do so if we are at each other's throats with personal things instead of focusing on the topic of the discussion. |
Then your problem is with idiots, not atheists. i see no reason to lump the two together the way you did.Yeah. there are a lot of idiots out there. I would say theat it's human to be an idiot. All humans are idiots. Not only christians or atheists. Some are just more idiotic than others (I am, for example).
Also, everybody speaks of Big Bang like if all atheists believe in it?? Like a faith! It's not true, you can't know if it happened or not. In the religion world, such things are called "God's words, the truth". In the science world, it's called "a theory".
"When a kid has a pretend friend, we smile and say it's childish, when an adult has a pretend friend, it's called religion."
| LukeakaDanish wrote: |
| Gagnar The Unruly wrote: | Science does not seek to explain why everything exists, which explains the reason that no scientist has managed to explain it -- no scientist can endeavor to. "Why" questions are not within the scope of science and must be dealt with religiously or philisophically.
When it comes to the hows, however, it's not safe to say that something isn't scientifically explainable. There's no reason to believe that the mystery of how the big bang happened won't one day be solved. Physics is beginning to look beyond the big bang, I believe. |
Very true. But not entirely against what i said
Maybe physics can explain why the big bang happened, and what was before. In fact, the multi verse theory already attempts to do this. But from having absolutely nothing to having something...doesn't seem like something physicists can explain - instead philosophy (which indirectly also includes religion) gets a chance to play ball (as you yourself point out) and come up with solutions that somehow work with or without our scientifically proven world.
I think we agree...just wanted to clarify...(please correct me if that statement is wrong) |
Right, no argument here, just clarifying based on my perspective. If I may go a bit further, I would say that why questions are equally inappropriate as scientific questions as how questions are inappropriate religious and philisophical questions. Religion cannot satisfactorily explain how the universe formed without requiring some act of faith, and acts of faith are indiscriminate. I could just as easily chose religion A as religion B, and either could provide me with a different explanation for the formation of the universe. If either explanation were correct, it would be due to chance. However, science is different. Any two groups of people applying the scientific method to a particular question would eventually arrive at the same understanding given enough time to collect and properly analyze data. The question of what happened 'before' the big bang is still the domain of science, even though it seems like an intractable question.*
People like to hold onto the notion that religion supplies mechanistic explanations for hard-to-understand universal processes, but such a position actually undermines religion. Religious explanations for such processes rarely hold up under the hard light of science, and religion suffers by direct comparison. If that is the purpose of religion, then it gets less and less important as each scientific discovery occurs. Alert theolgians should recognize that this is not necissarily the case; religion remains as important as it ever was, but not for it's ability to explain the causes of the universe. Rather, it addresses the purpose for our existence and the goals towards which we should strive. Whether philosophy can do just as good a job at that is a topic for another debate.
* The fact is that not all of the data may have been wiped out by the big bang, and that modern physics may reveal mechanisms that make sense in a 'pre' big-bang universe. There are already workable hypotheses that address that point. There is no reason to believe that there is a time-zero beyond which science doesn't apply and mythology takes over.
