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Talk between Muslim and Atheist.





YushuaMalik
You can check it out here:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/7368/science_religion.htm

If link doesn't work, I have posted it below:


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Religion and the Scientist

...seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different world...

And there they were, on a flight from Cape Town to Durban, seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different worlds.......After the formalities were covered, the conversation continued........

Bob: I don't believe in God, but rather in science and technology, something tangible you see, but if you can prove to me scientifically that God does exist then I would consider such a thought.

Yunus: Okay, you being interested in technology, please answer this question......with regard to an advanced machine or electronic device, who would be the one to know the most about its mechanism or functioning?

Bob: Well, perhaps the person who has invented or manufactured such a machine.

Yunus: Can we agree that it is the maker or creator of the product who would know every-thing there is to know about the product.

Bob: I don't see why not, it sounds reasonable.

Yunus: Being knowledgeable in these matters, the next question I'd like to ask you is, Just how did the world or the universe come into existence?

Bob: According to recent scientific research, the whole universe was one gigantic mass, which scientists call the primary Nebula, they tell us that it was a cosmic explosion or a secondary explosion that gave rise to the sun, the stars, the planets and even the Earth we live on.

Yunus: Is this what you believe?

Bob: Yes of course, these are established facts based on scientific proofs. In fact, this idea was realised in 1973 and termed the 'BIG BANG' theory.

Yunus: I see, well I have a surprise for you....In the Holy Quraan, chapter 21, verse 30 says. "Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then I split them apart". Here we can see that the Holy Quraan is speaking about this 'BIG BANG' theory and let me tell you that the Holy Quraan was revealed over 1400 years ago.

Bob: I have heard about the Quraan, but can you refresh my memory.

Yunus: Sure, the Muslim believes the Quraan to be the word of God, pure and unadulterated which was revealed verbally to the Prophet _____ of Islam, Mohammed, Peace be upon him, through the agency of the Angel Gabriel. The Holy Quraan was completed over a period of 23 years, that is over the prophetic life of the Prophet _____________ of Islam.

Bob: Are you sure that the Quraan is over 14 centuries old and secondly, that the Quraan has not been changed.

Yunus: Absolutely, it is a historical fact that the Holy Quraan was completed in the seventh century and has remained unchanged ever since. Historians, whether friends or foes to Islam, testify to this.

Bob: Well then, perhaps it's a guess.

Yunus:.....What does science say about the shape of the Earth ?

Bob: Previously, Man thought that the Earth was flat, until Sir Frances Drake in 1607 finally proved it to be spherical. Today, the term Geoid is used to describe this spherical shape.

Yunus: Amazingly the Holy Quraan in chapter 31, verse 29 says, "Have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night." The use of the word merges emphasizes a slow gradual change, and this is not possible if the earth is flat.

Bob: Go on.

Yunus: Further in chapter 39, verse 5, it says, "He coils the night upon the day and he coils the day upon the night." The word used in the original arabic text is "Kaw'wara" which means coils or winds, the significance of this verb is that you usually coil something around a rather spherical object. You say that this fact was discovered recently, well relatively recently, who could have mentioned this in the Holy Quraan over 1400 years ago ?

Bob: I'm not convinced.

Yunus: Fine, tell me where the light of the Moon comes from?

Bob: Centuries ago people thought that the Moon was a miniature version of the Sun and that both emitted their own light, but recently studies confirmed that the Moon reflected the Sun's light.

Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 25, verse 61 mentions, "Blessed is the one who placed the constellations in the Heaven and placed therein a lamp and a Moon reflecting light." Here the Sun is referred to as a lamp for it has its own illumination, while the Moon is said to have reflected light or borrowed light, meaning not its own.

Bob: Its probably conjecture...guesswork.

Yunus: For the sake of a discussion I won't argue. Anyway, let us proceed....... When I was in school in the 80's, my teacher told me that the Sun remains stationary whilst the planets although rotating around their axes do revolve around the Sun as well.

Bob: Is that what your Quraan says, that the Sun is stationary....Ha!

Yunus: No, the Holy Quraan does not say this. This is what I learned in school.

Bob: Today, science has advanced. We have come to know that the Sun does in fact revolve around its own axis. You see, the Sun if observed with the apppropriate scientific apparatus reveals to possess the "Black spots". Continuous observation shows that these black spots take 25 days to complete a revolution. Therefore we conclude that the Sun rotates and that it takes approximately 25 days to complete one full rotation around its axis.

Yunus: Well, this is nothing new to the muslim for it is revealed in the Holy Quraan in chapter 21, verse 33, "(God is) the One who created the night, the day, the Sun and the Moon, each one spinning around its own axis (travelling in an orbit)". Here it is evident that the Sun and the Moon both rotate and further the celestial law of orbital movement is made mention of. You tell me who could have mentioned these scientific facts in the Holy Quraan which you say was discovered recently by your scientists ? Before you answer that question, tell me......is there a difference between a star and a planet?

Bob: Yes, today we know that stars are heavenly bodies like the Sun in that they produce their own light, while planets on the other hand, do not produce their own light....like the earth on which we live.

Yunus: The Holy Quraan mentions scientific facts not only in the field of astronomy.

Bob: I'm listening.

Yunus: In several verses of the Holy Quraan the details of the water cycle is mentioned. It explains that the water from the earth and ground rises up and forms clouds .............. these clouds condense, there is lightning and rain falls from the clouds. This is evident from the following quotations ...........chapter 39, verse 21, "Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground, and come forth as springs.......", In chapter 23, verse 18, "We sent down water from the sky measure and lodged it in the ground and we certainly are able to withdraw it", and also in chapter 24, verse 43, "Have you not seen that God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them a heap. And you see rain drops falling from the midst of it ........"

Bob: According to my knowledge, the first coherent account of the water cycle was presented by Bernard Palissy in 1580.

Yunus: This is the exact distinction that the Holy Quraan makes between stars and planets. In chapter 86, verse 1-3, "By the sky and the night visitor, who will tell you what the night visitor is, the star of piercing brightness", which obviously refer to the stars. The planets are described as ornaments in chapter 37, verse 6, as it reads, "We have indeed adorned the lowest heaven with ornaments, the planets".

Bob: ............................... Hmmmmmm.........................It is no secret that the Arabs were advanced in the field of astronomy, and perhaps it was these learned astronomers that passed their findings to the Prophet _____________.

Yunus: I do agree that the Arabs were advanced in astronomy, but I'm afraid that you have the order or sequence of events incorrect.

Bob: What do you mean?!

Yunus: Let me remind you that the Holy Quraan was revealed centuries before the Arabs became advanced in this field of astronomy, so it was the Arabs who learnt about astronomy from the Quraan and most definitely not vice versa.

The Holy Quraan in chapter 30, verse 48 mentions that, "God is the one who sends forth the winds which raised up the clouds. He spreads them in the sky as he wills and breaks them into fragments. Then you see rain drops issuing from within them.....". While on the topic of Geography, I am sure you understand what is meant by the term "Folding".

Bob: Yes, you see.... the crust of the earth is relatively thin and mountain ranges due to the phenomenon of folding provides stability for the earth.

Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 78, verse 6-7 gives us an indication of the very same phenomenon as it says, "Have we not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes".

Here the word "stakes" is synonymous with the word pegs as in holding the earth in place. Further the first part of this verse shows us that the earth is not flat for it is an expanse ..... meaning that you can walk and walk without falling off.

The former idea is clarified in chapter 21, verse 31....."We placed the ground (mountains) standing firm so that it does not shake with them". Here we are told that mountains allow for the maintenance of the earths stability by preventing the earth's shape to change in such a way so as to cause it to move out of its orbit. Permit me to go on ........scientists pointed out recently that salt water and fresh water do not mix.......is that correct ?


Bob: That is correct.....this phenomenon is observed at various locations......for example the region where the Nile river meets with the Mediterranean sea and more especially in the Gulf stream where these two bodies of water flow together for thousands of kilometres.

Yunus: In chapter 25, verse 53 it reads, ....... "God is the one that has let free two seas, one is sweet and palatable and the other is salty and bitter. He placed an unseen barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to pass". A similar message is given in chapter 55, verses 19 and 20, "He has loosed the two seas. They meet together. Between them there is an unseen barrier which they do not transgress........"

Bob: Maybe some Arabs whist diving or swimming made such an observation.

Yunus: Unlikely, what you fail to realize is that the Holy Quraan too testifies that it is an unseen barrier and therefore it could not and still cannot be observed.

Bob: I see..... according to Darwinism and the theory of evolution, it is claimed that all life began in the sea or oceans.........can you tell me what does your Quraan say about this.....if anything at all.

Yunus: Yes, but first tell me just why does this theory have such a conclusion.....that life began in the Oceans....

Bob: Well, one of the reasons is that the chemical make-up or composition of human and animal life shows that water is the chief constituent. In fact between 50 and 90 %.

Yunus: In chapter 21, verse 30, it also says.............."And We made every living thing from water. Will they still not believe". Can you imagine that in the deserts of Arabia, where there is obviously a scarcity of water, who would have guessed that not only man but every living thing is made from
water.


Bob: I am aware that Cytoplasm, the main constituent of the cell is composed of approximately eighty percent water and that every living creature is of fifty or ninety percent water.

Yunus: Who could have mentioned these facts in the Quraan over 1400 years ago ?...there are over hundreds of facts in the Holy Quraan that modern science cannot find fault with today. On the topic of theories .......Can you explain to me just what is meant by the theory of drifting continents.

Bob: Sure, all our continents were at one time parts of one consolidated land mass, then following an explosion, they were scattered or rather pushed away all over the surface of the earth. Therefore if you look carefully at the world map, you would see for example that the East coast of South America would fit neatly against the West coast of Africa.

Yunus: A similar idea is reflected in the Holy Quraan in the chapter 79, verse 30, "and the earth He extended after that and then drew from it water and pastures". It says that the Earth passed through a stage when God had caused the land masses to drift apart.

Bob: Are you using scientific knowledge to prove the Quraan ?

Yunus: No, the Quraan is not a book of science but rather a book of signs. In fact, it has over 6000 signs (verses) out of which 1000 of these deal with scientific knowledge. I am not using science to prove something correct, you need a yardstick or knowledge that is absolute, something ultimate.....

Yunus: To the educated men like yourself, those that do not believe in God, science is generally your yardstick.....but to the Muslim, the Holy Quraan is our ultimate yardstick....the Quraan is also referred to as the "Furqaan" which is the arabic word meaning, the criterion between that which is right and that which is wrong. Therefore I am using your yardstick 'science' to prove to you what is said in the Holy Quraan. What your yardstick has said in relatively recent times ...... mine has said 14 centuries ago. Can we agree, therefore, that the Quraan is superior to science and that the Quraan is the ultimate yardstick.

Bob: Tell me more.

Yunus: The Quraan says in chapter 20, verse 53, "(God is the one) who sent down rain from the sky and with it brought forth a variety of plants in pairs". Here the Holy Quraan mentions a scientific fact which was discovered much later in history ..... that is .......the plant kingdom too has male and female types. This is also echoed in chapter 13, verse 3, "...........and of all fruits (God) placed on the earth two pairs ......."

Yunus: A branch of the field of Zoology has recently pointed out that there exists various social dynamics in the animal world. The Holy Quraan tells us the same, that the animals and birds live in communities in chapter 6, verse 38, "There is no animal on earth, no bird which flies on wings, that (does not belong to) communities like you .....".

Yunus: If I tell you that the Holy Quraan tells us of ants talking to one another, you will probably laugh, but the branch of Zoology that I am telling you about, has found the animal or insect which closely resembles the dynamics of the human, is the ant ....... for apart from an extremely 'advanced' system of communication (as is mentioned in the Holy Quraan, chapter 27, verse 1Cool, They ..... the ants bury the dead and can have what can be said to be an equivalent of a market place.


Bob: Perhaps your Prophet _____________ was a very observant man who made notes of them.

Yunus: First I would like to inform you that history years witness that the Prophet _____________ of Islam was an illiterate man in that he had no formal schooling and therefore could not read nor write. In fact at that time a great majority of Arabs were illiterate with only a negligible number who were literate. Nonetheless, it is also mentioned that it is the female bee that collects honey ........ Do you think that anybody could be so observant as to pick this up? You have just reminded me about something even more significant; in chapter 16, verse 69, it reads, "...... from their (bees) bodies comes a liquor of different colours wherein is a remedy for men." Today the medical scientist tell us that there are antiseptic qualities and applications of honey. Furthermore, I believe that it is used in the treatment of various allergies.

Bob: No wonder the Russian soldiers used to apply honey on their wounds. Yes, and as a result, the wounds left very little scar tissue.

Yunus: In chapter 16, verse 66, the Holy Quraan described blood circulation with regard to the production of milk in the cow ....... a thousand years before William Harvey made it famous to the western world. Let us examine the above mentioned reference, "Verily, in cattle too is a lesson for you, we give to you to drink of what is in their bodies, coming from a conjugation between the contents of the intestine and the blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it."

Bob: Tell me ...... what does the Quraan say about human beings?

Yunus: This question calls for a dissertation, for the Quraan deals with humans from before the time of conception until after death. .....But will you accept a brief exposition on some of the human embryo logical data or proofs presented in the Quraan?

Bob: Please go on. This is interesting.

Yunus: We know that after fertilization, the egg or ovum descends from the fallopian tube to lodge itself inside the uterus for gestation. This is described in chapter 22, verse 5, ".... We cause whom we will to rest in the womb for an appointed term......". As you know, there are structures or elongations from the egg which develops to draw nourishment from the uterus which is necessary for growth. These structural formations make the egg or rather the zygote seem to be literally clinging to the uterus ....... this, doubtedly, is a scientific discovery of modern times for the western world.

Did you know this appearance of clinging is described five times in the Holy Quraan. For example, in chapter 96, verses 1 & 2, "Read, in the name of your Lord who fashioned man from something which clings". Similar ideas are found in chapter 22, verse 5 - chapter 23, verse 14 and chapters 40 & 75. Furthermore, foetal growth is described in great detail in chapter 23, verse 14, with regard to the development of the skeleton. "Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; Then made that clot into a lump (foetus); then We made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones with flesh ............" ........ the verse goes on further in this manner of description.

Also with regard to the order or sequence of the senses, the Holy Quraan in chapter 32, verse 9 says, "......... He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and of sight........". Today, medical cience cannot argue with this sequence development of the senses in the foetus for it confirms that the development of hearing is completed by five months of pregnancy and that the eye is split open by the seventh month of pregnancy.

These facts and more have been brought to light by the western world as late as 1940. Furthermore, Professor Keith More, an embryologist at the university of Toronto in Canada, was asked to make a comparative study of the Embryo logical data in the Holy Quraan with that of modern scientific knowledge and he responded as follows, "The 1300 year old Quraan contains messages so accurate about embryonic development that muslims can reasonably believe them to be from God."


Bob: If this is true then how come it has not been recorded in the media?

Yunus: But it was ....... check the archives ......for example ....... the citizen, a Canadian Newspaper dated 22 November 1984, under the heading "Ancient Holy Book 1300 years ahead of its time". Or the times of India, New Delhi ...... dated 10 December 1984 under the caption "Koran scores over modern sciences."
Bob: This is really fascinating......don't stop..........continue....

Yunus: At this point I am reminded of a very powerful verse of the Holy Quraan which appears in chapter 41, verse 53, "Soon shall we show them our signs in the (furthest) regions of the earth , and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth......".

Yunus: The holy Quraan even speaks about diabetics.

Bob: What do you mean?

Yunus: You see, certain foodstuffs are declared unfit for human consumption and are therefore prohibited.

Bob: While we are on the topic of food ....... tell me why is it that a muslim is very particular about the words Halaal and Haraam ...... What do they mean?

Yunus: That which is permissible is termed Halaal and that which is not permissible is termed Haraam and it is the Quraan which draws the distinction between the two.
Bob: Can you give me an example ?

Yunus: Yes, Islam has prohibited blood of any type. You will agree that a chemical analysis of blood shows that it contains an abundance of uric acid, a chemical substance which can be injurious to human health.

Bob: You're right about the toxic nature of uric acid, in the human being it is excreted as a waste product....... in fact we are told that 98% of the bodies uric acid is extracted from the blood by the kidneys and removed through urination.

Yunus: Now I think that you'll appreciate the special prescribed method of animal slaughter in Islam.

Bob: What do you mean ?

Yunus: You see.....the wielder of the knife, whilst taking the name of the Almighty, makes an incision through the jugular veins, leaving all other veins of the neck intact.

Bob: I see.....this causes the death of the animal by a total loss of blood from the body, rather than an injury to any vital organ.

Yunus: Yes, were the organs, example the heart, the liver, or the brain crippled or damaged, the animal could die immediately and its blood would congeal in its veins and would eventually permeate (spread throughout) the flesh. This implies that the animal flesh would be permeated and contaminated with uric acid and therefore very poisonous ...... only today did our dietitians realise such a thing.

Bob: Again, while on the topic of food........ Why do Muslims condemn the eating of pork or ham or any foods related to pigs or swine.

Yunus: Actually, apart from the Quraan prohibiting the consumption of pig flesh, ......in fact the Bible too in Leviticus chapter 11, verse 8, .....regarding swine it says, "of their flesh (of the swine) shall you not eat, and of their carcase you shall not touch; they are unclean to you." Further, did you know that a pig cannot be slaughtered at the neck for it does not have a neck ..........that is according to its natural anatomy. A Muslim reasons that if the pig was to be slaughtered and fit for human consumption the creator would have provided it with a neck. Nonetheless, ........all that aside, I am sure you are well informed about the harmful effects of the consumption of pork, in any form, be it pork chops ...... ham ...... bacon.......

Bob: The medical sciences find that there is a risk for various diseases as the pig is found to be a host for many parasites and potential diseases.

Yunus: Yes, even apart from that ....as we talked about uric acid content in the blood.....it is important to note that the pig's biochemistry excretes only 2% of its total uric acid content...... the remaining 98% remains as an integral part of the body. This explains the high rate of Rheumatism found in those who consume pork.

Bob: Let's fasten our seatbelts ......I think we are going to land shortly .... I guess its true - time does fly when you're having fun. I've never heard these arguments before and I'd like to hear more.......just what is the basic theme of the Holy Quraan anyway ?

Yunus: The basic theme is of salvation, in this life and in the life hereafter..... it does not fall into the category of any known arts or sciences of the world, but since it addresses itself to mankind, it touches on almost all the disciplines which concern Him. Thus the Quraan surprisingly encompassed truths which were to be discovered and confirmed much later as our discussion has shown.

Yunus: This reminds me of the wise words of Sir Francis, who said, "It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty".

Thereafter nobody said a word ........they each sat back and looked forward waiting for touch down.........
Subsonic Sound
First of all, use quote brackets.

Secondly, it couldn't be much clearer that this was a conversation between a Muslim and a purely imaginary atheist.

And here's an interesting thing:
Quote:
Yunus: I see, well I have a surprise for you....In the Holy Quraan, chapter 21, verse 30 says. "Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then I split them apart". Here we can see that the Holy Quraan is speaking about this 'BIG BANG' theory and let me tell you that the Holy Quraan was revealed over 1400 years ago.


First of all, it's really not that clear that that's talking about the big bang. But let's just say it is. Nordic mythology talks of the diametrically opposed elemental planes of fire and ice touching to create the world we know - which bears a VERY strong resemblance to the meeting of matter and anti-matter, something many scientists ascribe the Big Bang to.

I'm not saying that's true, just that most religions have something similar, little collusions between myth and fact. And that on their own, they really do mean nothing.
YushuaMalik
Subsonic Sound wrote:
First of all, use quote brackets.


I copied the whole thing from the link I posted, and they didn't use quote brackets.

Subsonic Sound wrote:
Secondly, it couldn't be much clearer that this was a conversation between a Muslim and a purely imaginary atheist.


That is your bias. Yet even taking the worse case scenario, and saying it is a fake conversation, it still makes a point, nonetheless.

I could see you having a problem of it. Can you point out anything you would not say that Bob has said? Just wondering....

Subsonic Sound wrote:
And here's an interesting thing:
Quote:
Yunus: I see, well I have a surprise for you....In the Holy Quraan, chapter 21, verse 30 says. "Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then I split them apart". Here we can see that the Holy Quraan is speaking about this 'BIG BANG' theory and let me tell you that the Holy Quraan was revealed over 1400 years ago.


First of all, it's really not that clear that that's talking about the big bang. But let's just say it is. Nordic mythology talks of the diametrically opposed elemental planes of fire and ice touching to create the world we know - which bears a VERY strong resemblance to the meeting of matter and anti-matter, something many scientists ascribe the Big Bang to.

I'm not saying that's true, just that most religions have something similar, little collusions between myth and fact. And that on their own, they really do mean nothing.


Can you tell me where in Norse Mythology whre it say's this? I am not denying it's there, but I am curious about it.
EanofAthenasPrime
Um...I was completely lost on some of the stuff, like some of it made sense but some was just vague and confusing, was this a real conversation?

The two most compelling for me were Mohammed being illiterate and the female bee. How many people did Mohammed talk with during his life? If he did not talk with any scientists, even more bizzare.

And I didn't know Russians were Muslim? And why is the name Mohammed this "________________".
{name here}
Quote:
I copied the whole thing from the link I posted, and they didn't use quote brackets.

When you are quoting something from elsewhere in this forum, you use quote brackets.
Subsonic Sound
The rule about quote brackets it to stop people using big blocks of text from other sources to earn free points - text inside quotes doesn't count towards your points, you see. Not saying that's what you were doing, but people do.

As for the Norse stuff, the two realms were called Niflheim and Muspelheim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niflheim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muspelheim



I suppose the conversation could be real. But doesn't it seem rather scripted? Certainly, I am an atheist rather than a muslim, but in general terms I have nothing against the muslim faith, and wouldn't put down this article for no reason. I've no doubt it was written with good intentions and to get across interesting points. It's just I also have no doubt it was written, if you follow me. Smile
EanofAthenasPrime
Um...in the Bible in the book of Genesis it says the Earth is round, but the European Christians thought it was flat...
{name here}
EanofAthenasPrime wrote:
Um...in the Bible in the book of Genesis it says the Earth is round, but the European Christians thought it was flat...

It doesn't specify whether it is merely a disc, or spherical in nature.
polis
EanofAthenasPrime wrote:
Um...in the Bible in the book of Genesis it says the Earth is round, but the European Christians thought it was flat...


That is so NOT TRUE.

People knew about Earth curvature even long before christianity itself appears, and the catholic church never denied it either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

Then, why are we told that people believed earth was flat?

Well, most non-intelectual people thought that. Everyone else, didn't.

Then what was Christopher Columbus saying?

He didn't said Earth was round, he said that Earth was smaller. So in fact, he was wrong.
dbhai
What does Yunus wants to say with his all arguements.
Is muslim or Islam a relegion which has told everything in Quran then may I ask him one simple thing why did he made man and if he made then why did he divided them to rule.Why?
EanofAthenasPrime
dbhai wrote:
What does Yunus wants to say with his all arguements.
Is muslim or Islam a relegion which has told everything in Quran then may I ask him one simple thing why did he made man and if he made then why did he divided them to rule.Why?


Well if Allah is true, this is how I percieve it: He is an energy lifeform someone able to manifest communication with any entity, also capable of foreseeing the future. When Allah says "I will make human's the dominant race" to me it means "I will plant evolution so human's will become the dominant race". I am not an Atheist so I don't know if Muslims think this way.
EanofAthenasPrime
EanofAthenasPrime wrote:
dbhai wrote:
What does Yunus wants to say with his all arguements.
Is muslim or Islam a relegion which has told everything in Quran then may I ask him one simple thing why did he made man and if he made then why did he divided them to rule.Why?


Well if Allah is true, this is how I percieve it: He is an energy lifeform someone able to manifest communication with any entity, also capable of foreseeing the future. When Allah says "I will make human's the dominant race" to me it means "I will plant evolution so human's will become the dominant race". I am not an Atheist so I don't know if Muslims think this way.


polis-It is true. Get a bible and look it up.
polis
EanofAthenasPrime wrote:
EanofAthenasPrime wrote:
dbhai wrote:
What does Yunus wants to say with his all arguements.
Is muslim or Islam a relegion which has told everything in Quran then may I ask him one simple thing why did he made man and if he made then why did he divided them to rule.Why?


Well if Allah is true, this is how I percieve it: He is an energy lifeform someone able to manifest communication with any entity, also capable of foreseeing the future. When Allah says "I will make human's the dominant race" to me it means "I will plant evolution so human's will become the dominant race". I am not an Atheist so I don't know if Muslims think this way.


polis-It is true. Get a bible and look it up.


I was talking about what you said about european christians:

Quote:
European Christians thought it was flat...


That is NOT true.
Indi
Subsonic Sound wrote:
I suppose the conversation could be real. But doesn't it seem rather scripted? Certainly, I am an atheist rather than a muslim, but in general terms I have nothing against the muslim faith, and wouldn't put down this article for no reason. I've no doubt it was written with good intentions and to get across interesting points. It's just I also have no doubt it was written, if you follow me. Smile

Oh absolutely. "Bob" was way too gullible and swallowed the claims of "Yunus" without any real challenge, and spent most of the conversation conveniently opening the door for "Yunus's" points. And "Yunus" was a freaking encyclopedia.

Real conversation? No way. It's a scripted fantasy. It reads like the kind of conversations you see in Chick tracts.

polis wrote:
I was talking about what you said about european christians:

Quote:
European Christians thought it was flat...


That is NOT true.

It's true that by the time Christianity came onto the scene - let alone by the time it became dominant - anyone with learning knew that the Earth was spherical. However, the Christian bible uses a flat Earth cosmology, and that includes the new testament (which was not written by particularly learned people, geographically speaking).

In the bible, the Earth itself is a flat, fixed disk containing the waters and the land. Above it is a hemispherical dome called the "firmament", and the stars, the planets, the sun and moon are all lodged in this firmament, with angels (or, more specifically, heavenly hosts) moving them around as need be. Above the firmament is Heaven, which is another flat disk containing waters and land. Sometimes the firmament leaks and the waters of heaven fall though... aka rain.

Later Christian theologians - again, these guys were like monks and stuff, who had no learning of geography or the logic surrounding the idea of a spherical Earth - modified the biblical description, giving the heavens layers. Different layers included different stuff, like clouds, stars, planets (which they thought were just special wandering stars) and so on. This idea was folded back into the idea of a spherical Earth, so now you had a model of the universe with a spherical Earth at the center, then layers of heavens (not Heaven) around it like layers of an onion. The inner layers had the clouds, the moon (a spherical moon, of course) and the sun (also spherical), then outer layers had the planets and stars (not spheres, just punctures in the fabric of the outer layer), and finally beyond the outermost layer was Heaven.

That's the cosmology that Islam inherited when it came on the scene. When it talks about the layers of heaven, it's not talking about the atmosphere.
YushuaMalik
{name here} wrote:
Quote:
I copied the whole thing from the link I posted, and they didn't use quote brackets.

When you are quoting something from elsewhere in this forum, you use quote brackets.


Sorry, I am somewhat new to this website.
YushuaMalik
EanofAthenasPrime wrote:
dbhai wrote:
What does Yunus wants to say with his all arguements.
Is muslim or Islam a relegion which has told everything in Quran then may I ask him one simple thing why did he made man and if he made then why did he divided them to rule.Why?


Well if Allah is true, this is how I percieve it: He is an energy lifeform someone able to manifest communication with any entity, also capable of foreseeing the future. When Allah says "I will make human's the dominant race" to me it means "I will plant evolution so human's will become the dominant race".


I guess that is an...interesting way to interpret it

EanofAthenasPrime wrote:
I am not an Atheist so I don't know if Muslims think this way.


You are not an Atheist? What are you?
catscratches
First of all. The quotes from the quoran does not prove anything, the connection is loose. You could always get it right if you really want to. I could come up with a new religion and it would have the right connections to technology I don't know if I just write nonsense. I could draw the lines together later on.

Secondly: The atheist believes in Big Bang. Note: BELIEVES. Big Bang is a theory, NOT a fact. And far from all atheist believe in this. If you are an atheist and BELIEVE in it. Then you're not an atheist. You can say that it is a possibility but not that it's what happened 100%.

Thirdly: If the atheist would believe in anything else than big bang, the muslim could've come up other arguments for that, just because the Quoran is so damn ****** loose and poinstless!
EanofAthenasPrime
catscratches wrote:

If you are an atheist and BELIEVE in it.


I understand everything that you typed except this. This sentence is utilizing incorrect grammar. I don't understand. This is only a sentence fragment, an if statement, where is the "then"?
Bru, stuffce
It’s nice stuff. I have read a fair amount of the Koran (I was learning Arabic at the time) and it’s generally a pretty sensible book, though, to me, an atheist, a bit boring.

The thing is that the Koran is wrong about pigs. Certainly, back in the time it was written I wouldn’t have eaten poorly-cooked pork, but if it was well done the pork tapeworm (Taenia solium) Cysticerci are destroyed by heating and can’t infect the person eating them. The same is true of all parasites. However, I can understand that avoiding pork is just easier then taking the risk.

Pigs do have necks; they are just thicker than a goat’s neck. I have a degree in Human Biology, but I still know my comparative anatomy, and pigs are very similar to humans. Whoever wrote the Koran wasn’t a biologist.

Where Yunus says “Yes, were the organs, example the heart, the liver, or the brain crippled or damaged, the animal could die immediately and its blood would congeal in its veins and would eventually permeate (spread throughout) the flesh. This implies that the animal flesh would be permeated and contaminated with uric acid and therefore very poisonous ...” this is only marginally true. It has been known for millennia that blood contaminates meat unless drained off, but the contamination is one that affect the taste. The level of uric acid in the blood is minimal and not really a problem except to someone who “pigs out” on bloody pork. The reason that people were draining the blood out of animals thousands of years before the Koran was written is because the meat tastes a lot better if you do. However many people saved the blood and consumed it later in the form of blood puddings.

Also I don’t think that the Koran says that pigs have no necks, but Yunus does, and he’s wrong. It is quite common for pigs to be slaughtered and their blood drained from a cut in the neck. And his comments about eating pork are rubbish. Lean pork is a pretty healthy alternative to chicken, and not bad for one. The problem with pork is that, nowadays, pork is very fatty and the triglycerides are not good for you in large quantities. There is no magic problem with eating pork, provided you don’t eat to excess.

Quote:
The medical sciences find that there is a risk for various diseases as the pig is found to be a host for many parasites and potential diseases.

Rubbish. Pigs are so parasite-free these days that you can eat them raw if you wish. We have pigs in Belgium, the ones I eat, that are raised in the forest, eating all that they find and they are still fine to eat. 1,400 years ago it was a different story, and simple observation would have shown you that eating uncooked or badly cooked pork was not a wise move. Especially in the heat of the Middle East.

Quote:
Yes, even apart from that ....as we talked about uric acid content in the blood.....it is important to note that the pig's biochemistry excretes only 2% of its total uric acid content...... the remaining 98% remains as an integral part of the body. This explains the high rate of Rheumatism found in those who consume pork.

More rubbish. I don’t even know what it means. Rheumatism is a very vague term, and while it is possible to get joint pain from excess uric acid, gout is much more likely. If pigs only excrete 2% of their uric acid they would soon swell to huge sizes from the store of it. Pigs kidneys are as efficient as ours are and clear the uric acid pretty quickly. Pig’s kidneys are, though, very high in uric acid, but again the answer is moderation and there would be no problem.
Bannik
Okay here is a few things i want to point out.

the story is fake, you see how each and every question flows perfectly and the Muslim has a pefect answer for each one and Bob keeps handing him question he anwsers. Why is it that most of it is focussing on science and that the Muslim religion of Allah has showed them the way he knews the answers.....

okay what question would I ask -

Why does your god allow killing? of any kind

Why is your god ruled by emotions?

i.e if your god gets angry then emotions get the better of him, that means emotins are above god that he cannot control them, they are more powerful then god you could say and that cannot be.

why is it that god sees his fallowers murder and kill innocent women and children and animals who have done nothing wrong and yet not step in and stop it, sure the Christian religion has an excuse they changed the bible several times to change the meanings etc...but Islam, from what I hear quran has never been changed, the stories in the quran speak of Allah sending signs to fallowers....where is he now? why not send a sign a simple letter saying "stop" or is it still a test.....why doesnt he strike down those who destroy the meaning of the religion.

If Allah is against the murder and death of innocent and loves his religon then shouldnt he strike down, oh lets say a terrorist leader who uses the religion for evil.....

well I guese Christian and Muslim gods are the same, they talk about love and forgivness, they have punished others for crimes in ancient times and yet today they do nothing....
catscratches
EanofAthenasPrime wrote:
catscratches wrote:

If you are an atheist and BELIEVE in it.


I understand everything that you typed except this. This sentence is utilizing incorrect grammar. I don't understand. This is only a sentence fragment, an if statement, where is the "then"?
"If you are an atheist and BELIEVE in it. Then you're not an atheist. "
It comes in the next sentence. Yeah, I know I'm not good at english but I'm from Sweden.
YushuaMalik
Bru, stuffce wrote:
It’s nice stuff. I have read a fair amount of the Koran (I was learning Arabic at the time) and it’s generally a pretty sensible book, though, to me, an atheist, a bit boring.

The thing is that the Koran is wrong about pigs. Certainly, back in the time it was written I wouldn’t have eaten poorly-cooked pork, but if it was well done the pork tapeworm (Taenia solium) Cysticerci are destroyed by heating and can’t infect the person eating them. The same is true of all parasites. However, I can understand that avoiding pork is just easier then taking the risk.

Pigs do have necks; they are just thicker than a goat’s neck. I have a degree in Human Biology, but I still know my comparative anatomy, and pigs are very similar to humans. Whoever wrote the Koran wasn’t a biologist.

Where Yunus says “Yes, were the organs, example the heart, the liver, or the brain crippled or damaged, the animal could die immediately and its blood would congeal in its veins and would eventually permeate (spread throughout) the flesh. This implies that the animal flesh would be permeated and contaminated with uric acid and therefore very poisonous ...” this is only marginally true. It has been known for millennia that blood contaminates meat unless drained off, but the contamination is one that affect the taste. The level of uric acid in the blood is minimal and not really a problem except to someone who “pigs out” on bloody pork. The reason that people were draining the blood out of animals thousands of years before the Koran was written is because the meat tastes a lot better if you do. However many people saved the blood and consumed it later in the form of blood puddings.

Also I don’t think that the Koran says that pigs have no necks, but Yunus does, and he’s wrong. It is quite common for pigs to be slaughtered and their blood drained from a cut in the neck. And his comments about eating pork are rubbish. Lean pork is a pretty healthy alternative to chicken, and not bad for one. The problem with pork is that, nowadays, pork is very fatty and the triglycerides are not good for you in large quantities. There is no magic problem with eating pork, provided you don’t eat to excess.

Quote:
The medical sciences find that there is a risk for various diseases as the pig is found to be a host for many parasites and potential diseases.

Rubbish. Pigs are so parasite-free these days that you can eat them raw if you wish. We have pigs in Belgium, the ones I eat, that are raised in the forest, eating all that they find and they are still fine to eat. 1,400 years ago it was a different story, and simple observation would have shown you that eating uncooked or badly cooked pork was not a wise move. Especially in the heat of the Middle East.

Quote:
Yes, even apart from that ....as we talked about uric acid content in the blood.....it is important to note that the pig's biochemistry excretes only 2% of its total uric acid content...... the remaining 98% remains as an integral part of the body. This explains the high rate of Rheumatism found in those who consume pork.

More rubbish. I don’t even know what it means. Rheumatism is a very vague term, and while it is possible to get joint pain from excess uric acid, gout is much more likely. If pigs only excrete 2% of their uric acid they would soon swell to huge sizes from the store of it. Pigs kidneys are as efficient as ours are and clear the uric acid pretty quickly. Pig’s kidneys are, though, very high in uric acid, but again the answer is moderation and there would be no problem.


In the Name of GOD, the Beneficient, the Merciful!

Thanks for your input! Most appreciated!

But isn't it true that pork includes a big quantity of sebum and is marked by inosculating the sebum inside the muscular cells in the meat fro by its coexisting outside the cell in the connective tissues in high turbidity?

While the sebum of cattle's meat are isolated from the muscular tissue and it isn't posturized inside its cells but it is posturized outside the cells and in the connective tissues?

Anyways, thanks again!
YushuaMalik
Bannik wrote:

Why is it that most of it is focussing on science and that the Muslim religion of Allah has showed them the way he knews the answers.....


Because "Bob" is an Atheist, and many Atheists use science to affirm their beliefs. "Yunus" is showing him that the Qur'an is not some primitive Man-writtin book, and that it has no Scientific contradictions.

As far as him able to answer questions, it does seem somewhat bizzare at first. But that again, it is not surprising to get good answers from an Islamic Scholar.

Bannik wrote:
Why does your god allow killing? of any kind


This is somewhat hard to ansswer, because you weren't too specific. "of any kind" covers many ways, and certain killings can be justified. If you are being attacked and someone is trying to kill you, you should not accept death. You should fight back, and kill them....IF NECESSARY! Know that Allah DISSAPROVES of any kind of killing, but if there is no other way around killing someone, then it must be done. But you need to be more specific.

Bannik wrote:
Why is your god ruled by emotions?

i.e if your god gets angry then emotions get the better of him, that means emotins are above god that he cannot control them, they are more powerful then god you could say and that cannot be


Allah does not have emotions! Allah is not ruled by emotions!

Emotions for Allah are used in the Qur’an in a metaphorical way. It takes a human mind to understand what it is already familiar with. Allah’s anger or wrath is not the same as that of a human being. The gushing of blood into the brain causes anger in a human being. Allah takes revenge because He is “the Avenger”(One of the 99 names of Allah), but such emotions are revealed in a limited expression fit for our understanding.


Bannik wrote:
why is it that god sees his fallowers murder and kill innocent women and children and animals who have done nothing wrong and yet not step in and stop it, sure the Christian religion has an excuse they changed the bible several times to change the meanings etc...but Islam, from what I hear quran has never been changed, the stories in the quran speak of Allah sending signs to fallowers....where is he now? why not send a sign a simple letter saying "stop" or is it still a test.....why doesnt he strike down those who destroy the meaning of the religion.


Allah has given many signs for his existence! You think him throwing down a letter saying "stop" would do anything to convince evil-minded people!? These people have submitted to Shaytan's will, not Allah's, thus they would be blind to sings such as what you are saying! That is why they will be disciplined in the Hereafter!


Bannik wrote:
If Allah is against the murder and death of innocent and loves his religon then shouldnt he strike down, oh lets say a terrorist leader who uses the religion for evil.....


....No, because these "Terrorist Leaders" have what is coming to them, and a simple death in this world is not enough for the punishment that they will get. Since their bad deeds GREATLY overpower their good ones, and they still don't recognize what they are doing is wrong, then they will get a bigger punishment.

Bannik wrote:
well I guese Christian and Muslim gods are the same, they talk about love and forgivness, they have punished others for crimes in ancient times and yet today they do nothing....


Yeah, well that is kind of an opinionated thought, my friend.

Anyways, I hope I answered these somewhat well. KNow that I have only been Muslim for 8 months, so I know it wasn't as good as I could've done, but God Willing, I did somewhat okay.

Peace be with you!
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