How are we conscious of our emotions?
Last edited by EanofAthenasPrime on Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
Last edited by EanofAthenasPrime on Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
How do emotions "feel good"? Updated
| EanofAthenasPrime wrote: |
| Ok...atheists only please. The reason I say this is I don't want a theist saying "that is how we were created".."our soul and brain are built that way".."God influenced evolution" etc. Please don't feel too pissed, and post as such. This is not a debate about religion. You can make yet another religious debate. This is simply a topic discussion on various atheistic ideas. This is not meant to be a deconstructive debate. If you are a theist but don't believe in spirits you can join.
So...ideas on why emotion's feel good? Since there is no soul, how do we always like endorphins? Why? Electromagnetic frequencies in balance, brain harmony, why exactly? A certain frequency we percieve as feeling good? |
Um...I am a theist who believes in spirits.
My health teacher told me something about a 'Brain Reward System', that triggers what you percieve as good...or something like that.
So, it has something to do with that brain.
I don't know why you would generalize all Theists as Zealots like that. but no problem...
Um...lol. Anyways I only wanted atheists to reply because I didn't want this to become a topic debating religion.
So, anyways. yep. um. yeah. Kinda already knew it um...had something to do with the Brain. However, could you please go in depth about the Brain Reward System? It could be potentially useful. I already know that the brain rewards itself for survival, excersising, anything that would help you live longer generally releases endorphins. However, what do you know of this System?
So, anyways. yep. um. yeah. Kinda already knew it um...had something to do with the Brain. However, could you please go in depth about the Brain Reward System? It could be potentially useful. I already know that the brain rewards itself for survival, excersising, anything that would help you live longer generally releases endorphins. However, what do you know of this System?
| EanofAthenasPrime wrote: |
| Um...lol. Anyways I only wanted atheists to reply because I didn't want this to become a topic debating religion.
So, anyways. yep. um. yeah. Kinda already knew it um...had something to do with the Brain. However, could you please go in depth about the Brain Reward System? It could be potentially useful. I already know that the brain rewards itself for survival, excersising, anything that would help you live longer generally releases endorphins. However, what do you know of this System? |
The Brain Reward System is triggered by certain drugs and.....things that have something to do with the person. Thus, it gives them some kind of feeling of good feeling.
I am not an expert, so I don't know too much about this. But yeah....I only know that this system has morre to do with pleasure than all feelings.
But my point is that is has something to do with the brain. It doesn't have to have anything to do with religion.
I'm agnostic, sorry but can't help myself.
Let's see, my dog died so I'm sad
The girl I like talked to me, made feel great.
why?
damm it, that is a hard one. Might be something with the brain, i don't know, you can't expect 'serious' answers about this matter from non scientific people.
(notice that im not talking about emotions that are trigger with physical contact like drugs, sex....)
Let's see, my dog died so I'm sad
The girl I like talked to me, made feel great.
why?
damm it, that is a hard one. Might be something with the brain, i don't know, you can't expect 'serious' answers about this matter from non scientific people.
(notice that im not talking about emotions that are trigger with physical contact like drugs, sex....)
If you are really interested in the detailed biology then here is a paper by Schultz which goes into some detail.
http://bikerman.info/resources/biology/rewards.pdf
http://bikerman.info/resources/biology/rewards.pdf
Our consciousness is electro magnetic pulsations! 
Bikeman I will check that report out later, thanku for posting!
Bikeman I will check that report out later, thanku for posting!
The brains reward system is called the dopaminergic system. It contains dopamine neurons (which happen to be affected by lots of drugs). The underlying reason for how the system functions on a single-cell level isn't understood, but in terms of systems neuroscience, the gist is clear:
an unexpected or powerful reward triggers dopamine neurons to fire, and you feel good.
this is the brain's way of rewarding good behavior and helping the organism make good choices for it. of course this activity can be misused--it turns out that the rate of fire for these neurons increases with the unliklihood of success. As in, if you know you are going to succeed, the reward is much less than if you're surprised. This is thought to be why gambling is so addictive.
without getting into the neurobiology, one can think of the reward system as a type of internal behavioral conditioning. The fact that is applies to things like love and more human constructs doesn't change the fact that it exists in many animals--it's just also become a part of our higher cognitive processes.
an unexpected or powerful reward triggers dopamine neurons to fire, and you feel good.
this is the brain's way of rewarding good behavior and helping the organism make good choices for it. of course this activity can be misused--it turns out that the rate of fire for these neurons increases with the unliklihood of success. As in, if you know you are going to succeed, the reward is much less than if you're surprised. This is thought to be why gambling is so addictive.
without getting into the neurobiology, one can think of the reward system as a type of internal behavioral conditioning. The fact that is applies to things like love and more human constructs doesn't change the fact that it exists in many animals--it's just also become a part of our higher cognitive processes.
If you make yourself goals in life, you want to achive them. Like... You want to go to Brasil. Woops, can't get a planeticket. Then your said. I'm not extreamly smart so I can't really explaine why this is that way. I guess it has something to do with the brain....
Simple pleasures like crapping, napping, and eating also trigger the dopaminergic system. I had a friend with manic-depressive disorder, and he took some medicines that suppressed his emotions, along with his motivation and reward systems. Without dopamine functioning properly, life becomes uninteresting and hollow. Our brain dispenses small quantities of pleasure constantly to keep us motivated and interested in our daily lives, and that goes unnoticed until it's gone.
Most commonly abused drugs have some affect or interaction with the motivation/reward system of the brain. This is why almost all drugs are strongly habit-forming and hard to say no to, even when they aren't addictive. Most drugs initiate a motivation/reward positive feedback loop, that is often strengthened by the fact that drugs diminish in potency with regular use, increasing the potential for habituation or addiction. Hijacking the system with drugs can also be dangerous, as it recalibrates the system. Some drugs like heroin are well known to cause severe depression in the user who is off the high. Because the brain's reward system becomes calibrated in the presence of heroin, the absence of heroine leads to depression. I believe a similar phenomenon happens to alcoholics, and probably to routine users of other drugs that affect the motivation/reward system as well.
Most commonly abused drugs have some affect or interaction with the motivation/reward system of the brain. This is why almost all drugs are strongly habit-forming and hard to say no to, even when they aren't addictive. Most drugs initiate a motivation/reward positive feedback loop, that is often strengthened by the fact that drugs diminish in potency with regular use, increasing the potential for habituation or addiction. Hijacking the system with drugs can also be dangerous, as it recalibrates the system. Some drugs like heroin are well known to cause severe depression in the user who is off the high. Because the brain's reward system becomes calibrated in the presence of heroin, the absence of heroine leads to depression. I believe a similar phenomenon happens to alcoholics, and probably to routine users of other drugs that affect the motivation/reward system as well.
( I am not an atheist, but I respect everyone and believe that while no
two people can have the same idea we can all have common ideals, and
though I feel it's a better explination, I'll leave the 'soul matter' out of it)
The brain and all it's complicated functions explain HOW we feel emotions
but they don't really explain WHY. On top of that, everyone's emotion are
different - What one person may experience as a "good feeling" another
may see as being "a bad feeling". Looking at porn makes some people
feel good and some people it makes want to puke. I think that factor has
to do with our own conditioning and previous experiences in life.
Why do we feel? I think we feel for our own benefit and survival - If we
feel scared of water we're less likely to drown, fear of fire makes us less
likely to get burnt, feeling sexualy aroused helps to insure propogation of
the species, feeling happy can keep us from just wanting to kill ourselves,
and feeling sad can keep us from running around like idiots all drunk on
happiness to the point of neglecting priorities....
(normaly I'd go into how I think we are all here to learn specific things
and how feeling specific ways can help or hinder that development
dependant on our choice of reactions to those feelings...bbbuutttt....I
won't go into that!)
that's my two cents, wrong or right doesn't matter much to me...
in the end- what is...is. whether I understand it or not.
while why we feel is an interesting thought...what I really want to know is
how not to feel?! I wanna be a vulcan........
anyways. you guys r awesome. rock on.
two people can have the same idea we can all have common ideals, and
though I feel it's a better explination, I'll leave the 'soul matter' out of it)
The brain and all it's complicated functions explain HOW we feel emotions
but they don't really explain WHY. On top of that, everyone's emotion are
different - What one person may experience as a "good feeling" another
may see as being "a bad feeling". Looking at porn makes some people
feel good and some people it makes want to puke. I think that factor has
to do with our own conditioning and previous experiences in life.
Why do we feel? I think we feel for our own benefit and survival - If we
feel scared of water we're less likely to drown, fear of fire makes us less
likely to get burnt, feeling sexualy aroused helps to insure propogation of
the species, feeling happy can keep us from just wanting to kill ourselves,
and feeling sad can keep us from running around like idiots all drunk on
happiness to the point of neglecting priorities....
(normaly I'd go into how I think we are all here to learn specific things
and how feeling specific ways can help or hinder that development
dependant on our choice of reactions to those feelings...bbbuutttt....I
won't go into that!)
that's my two cents, wrong or right doesn't matter much to me...
in the end- what is...is. whether I understand it or not.
while why we feel is an interesting thought...what I really want to know is
how not to feel?! I wanna be a vulcan........
anyways. you guys r awesome. rock on.
| EanofAthenasPrime wrote: |
| Ok...serious answers only please. No: "We feel happy because the sky is beautiful". etc
So...ideas on why emotion's feel good? Since there is no soul, how do we always like endorphins? Why? Electromagnetic frequencies in balance, brain harmony, why exactly? A certain frequency we percieve as feeling good? |
I think there are pleasure receptors in your brain that, when triggered, release endorphins or dopamine (or in the math sense so it can be one the other or both). These chemicals then block various receivers resulting in a state of euphoria. I think they block pain (which makes you feel better) and, the concept of feeling good was created to describe the emotions of feeling good.
If the question is "what is the value of this," then I would have to say teaching primitives how to behave. We do that which makes us feel good and avoid that which hurts us. It would make sense in an evolutionary view if the people who felt good doing smart things and felt pain doing dumb things would live. Let's use sex as an example. Suppose one person hates sex and one loves it. We can safely assume the one who loves it will have more, resulting in more kids and a greater spreading of his genes. Getting kicked in the nuts may impair your ability to reproduce and as a result it hurts...a lot.
With something that doesn't directly lead to more offspring, there are still advantages. Falling out of a tree could kill you but if it doesn't and you don't feel pain, you might jump again and kill yourself preventing you from reproducing (unless she is a necrophiliac).
The best thing about this is it works so perfectly with evolution. It isn't the giraffe slowly getting a longer neck; it works in one generation to weed out many idiots.
Lol thank u guys for posting, but yeah I know the basics of natural selection and how the brain prolongs its life span with emotions and emotions help forward nature's ultimate goal: reproduction. Anyways me thinks you are avoiding the question at hand which is: How are we conscious of our emotions?
Is'nt it due to the brain releasing different chemicals in the body in certain situations?
If all you're interested in is the physical explanation, then breebree's answer is essentially correct, although incomplete. For example: Why do we feel "sad"? Because when certain neural subnets within our brain get activated, they trigger certain glands to release or not release certain chemicals (for example, they may inhibit the release of serotonin or melatonin). These chemicals can have affects on our brain - for example, they may increase or decrease the chance that neurons will fire - and they can have other effects on our body - for example they may inhibit digestion or increase the amounts of lactic acid in muscles by decreasing its breakdown. Our brains recognize these symptoms (lowered neural activity will be recognized as a kind of mental lethargy or slowness of thought - aka "the blues" - and effects on muscles will be recognized as a kind of physical lethargy), and identify them as "sadness". Therefore, our conscious understanding of "sadness" is really just our brains unconsciously identifying physical cues like decreased neural activity and physical lethargy, and lumping them together under the definition of "sadness".
Even more complex emotions can be described similarly. Take "love" for example (not necessarily romantic love, because that's largely lust, but like the love for a favoured relative, or object, or place). Your neural nets would have been adapted by experiences in the past in such a way that when the subnets associated with that thing that you love are activated, they also activate other subnets that send messages to your various glands. Those messages instruct those glands to (for example) slow down production of adrenaline, among other things. The physiological effects you feel are that you feel more relaxed and at ease. Your conscious identifies the physical sensation of feeling at ease, recognizes the relationship between thinking about that thing and feeling more relaxed and at ease... and you understand it consciously as "love". Again, we are conscious of the fact that we "love" something because that thing causes a physiological response of being relaxed and at ease... which our conscious mind identifies as "love".
So, when we are affected emotionally by something, our brains release different chemicals depending on how we were affected. Those chemicals cause physiological effects. We can sense those physiological symptoms, and we identify them as the "feeling" part of the emotion.
Kinda makes you wonder which is the cause and which is the effect. Do you feel sick to your stomach because you're "upset"... or do you feel "upset" because you're sick to your stomach? Hm....
Even more complex emotions can be described similarly. Take "love" for example (not necessarily romantic love, because that's largely lust, but like the love for a favoured relative, or object, or place). Your neural nets would have been adapted by experiences in the past in such a way that when the subnets associated with that thing that you love are activated, they also activate other subnets that send messages to your various glands. Those messages instruct those glands to (for example) slow down production of adrenaline, among other things. The physiological effects you feel are that you feel more relaxed and at ease. Your conscious identifies the physical sensation of feeling at ease, recognizes the relationship between thinking about that thing and feeling more relaxed and at ease... and you understand it consciously as "love". Again, we are conscious of the fact that we "love" something because that thing causes a physiological response of being relaxed and at ease... which our conscious mind identifies as "love".
So, when we are affected emotionally by something, our brains release different chemicals depending on how we were affected. Those chemicals cause physiological effects. We can sense those physiological symptoms, and we identify them as the "feeling" part of the emotion.
Kinda makes you wonder which is the cause and which is the effect. Do you feel sick to your stomach because you're "upset"... or do you feel "upset" because you're sick to your stomach? Hm....
| Indi wrote: |
|
Kinda makes you wonder which is the cause and which is the effect. Do you feel sick to your stomach because you're "upset"... or do you feel "upset" because you're sick to your stomach? Hm.... |
Very intriguing...
However sadly I do not think any standard human will be cabable of correctly answering this question, consciousness, for quite some time...
Also note they would need a method of proving their answer or there would be know way to determine its validity...
| EanofAthenasPrime wrote: | ||
Very intriguing... However sadly I do not think any standard human will be cabable of correctly answering this question, consciousness, for quite some time... Also note they would need a method of proving their answer or there would be know way to determine its validity... |
Actually, it's not really that hard to test, conceptually. Practically we don't really have the technology to do it yet, but it's not really a difficult concept.
First we find a way to consistently induce an emotional response. For example, we find someone who always gets upset when they see a picture of a bunny - because their husband was murdered by a rabid bunny before their eyes or something.
Then we measure all of their bodily functions, brain chemicals and so on, and we show them the bunny picture and see what happens to these things. That's our base line.
Then to see if those chemicals cause emotions, we don't show the person the picture, but we somehow affect their body functions and brain chemicals in exactly the same way as if they had seen the picture, and we ask them how they feel. If they feel the same as with the picture, then we have shown that the biological factors cause the emotional sensation.
Then to see if those chemicals are the the only cause, we show the person the bunny picture, only this time we prevent those biological changes from happening. If they don't feel sad, then we have confirmed the hypothesis.
All we really need is a way to accurately record the changes in a person's body, and a way to influence or suppress those changes - neither of which are that far off conceptually.
And, this isn't just an intellectual exercise. This could be a useful technology. Someone with a debilitating phobia - for example, agoraphobia - could be fitted with an implant that, when it recognizes the biological signs of panic, suppresses them. It could also be used to treat short-term trauma, and other similar things.
| indi wrote: |
| Actually, it's not really that hard to test, conceptually. Practically we don't really have the technology to do it yet, but it's not really a difficult concept.
First we find a way to consistently induce an emotional response. For example, we find someone who always gets upset when they see a picture of a bunny - because their husband was murdered by a rabid bunny before their eyes or something. |
| Indi wrote: | ||||
Actually, it's not really that hard to test, conceptually. Practically we don't really have the technology to do it yet, but it's not really a difficult concept. First we find a way to consistently induce an emotional response... |
Well in theory not a bad idea BUT...I think that emotions are a mix of chemicals and thought, and though eliminating chemicals would (in theory) eliminate much of emotion, thought itself would (in theory) also be responsible for emotion...
And figuring out emotions wouldn't really answer the question of consciousness fully...
And the butchers who did the Little Albert experiment are evil...
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