Heres a question for the religious minded out there. If you absolutely believe that life on earth is all about getting into heaven for eternity, and you believe that by sinning you endanger this from happening. Why wouldnt you kill your babies as soon as they are born to ensure that they enter heaven? Surely life on earth is nothing compared to eternity in heaven? Admittedly you would reduce your chances of getting in but that would be the ultimate sacrifice to get your family in. Surely.
I should point out here that I am a card carrying humanist and would never advocate such horrific activities.
| trousersalive wrote: |
Heres a question for the religious minded out there. If you absolutely believe that life on earth is all about getting into heaven for eternity, and you believe that by sinning you endanger this from happening. Why wouldnt you kill your babies as soon as they are born to ensure that they enter heaven? Surely life on earth is nothing compared to eternity in heaven? Admittedly you would reduce your chances of getting in but that would be the ultimate sacrifice to get your family in. Surely.
I should point out here that I am a card carrying humanist and would never advocate such horrific activities. |
Uhmm, because they would be commiting a very painful sin?
I don't know what is the point trying to break down the religious ones. Let them be happy and believe whatever they want.Actually, a child that's been killed may not necessarily end up in Heaven (it depends on the belief system of the individual, but the issue is that children haven't had time to make the moral decisions necessary to get in). There's also the issue that some religions believe that the sins of the father are visited on the children, so the children's soul is also in danger if there are killed by the parents.
In other words, it's a bit more complex than it would seem...
HM
and killing a child is also one of the most horrible things you can do, as far as I know, that concerns all religions..
| HereticMonkey wrote: |
Actually, a child that's been killed may not necessarily end up in Heaven (it depends on the belief system of the individual, but the issue is that children haven't had time to make the moral decisions necessary to get in). There's also the issue that some religions believe that the sins of the father are visited on the children, so the children's soul is also in danger if there are killed by the parents.
In other words, it's a bit more complex than it would seem...
HM |
So does that mean a child that dies of natural causes doesnt go to heaven because they havnt made any moral decisions yet?To kill the baby is committing a sin.
| trousersalive wrote: |
Heres a question for the religious minded out there. If you absolutely believe that life on earth is all about getting into heaven for eternity, and you believe that by sinning you endanger this from happening. Why wouldnt you kill your babies as soon as they are born to ensure that they enter heaven? Surely life on earth is nothing compared to eternity in heaven? Admittedly you would reduce your chances of getting in but that would be the ultimate sacrifice to get your family in. Surely.
I should point out here that I am a card carrying humanist and would never advocate such horrific activities. |
I am not even christian and I can explain why.
It is all about free will. You cannot send anyone that has not chosen the christian god to heaven if they have not chosen to follow and submit to that god.
First the child must reach an age where they can choose that god.
I don't know what happens if they die before that age other wise. But as I said, I am not christian.Playing devil's advocate simply because it looks like an interesting debate.
Yes, the person doing the murdering would be commiting a terrible sin. They'd go to hell, no doubt. But that's the point, it would be an act of supreme self sacrifice to send all your children to heaven, sparing them the strife of this world and the possibility of hell. You can certainly see how someone could convince themselves it was the right thing to do.
Now, some have said that the sins of the father are visited on the young - so if my father were a murdering maniac, my chances of getting into heaven would be damaged, even if I lived a pious and good life? That doesn't sound like the kind of rule a benevolent, compassionate deity would declare.
And as far as the baby being too young to have earned a place in heaven, some are saying that even if a baby dies of natural causes, they won't get into heaven... I thought that was the point of baptising babies? So that they will? Certainly it's not a conscious choice on their behalf, and I can see no other reason to do it.
None of it makes sense to me.
Just live a good life and don't fear things you cannot know.
We can have good morals with out hockus pockus religions.
I m pretty sure you enraged some people with that opinion..I personally just laughed, because I don't believe in eternity.
It shouldn't enrage anyone who's willing to stop and think. No-one's actually DOING this, it's just a hypothetical.
Killing is a NONO to whichever religions you referring to unless it is a satanic sort of believe. There is no way to send your kids to heaven by killing them before they committed any themselves. Each of us are born for a reason or purpose.
In christianity (forgive me if i am wrong as I am nt a christian), I understand that god have create each and everyone of us for a purpose and the purpose is to follow god will. Hence, killing your kids without letting them fulfill their purpose is a NONO to the christianity. It is a free will to choose for yourself but not for others even it is your children.
In Buddhism, everyone came to the world to redeem their sin (from their previous life) and even if you kill them when they are just born, you just build up your sin for the next lifetime and not releasing that of your children.
I am not sure for other religions, but I am sure if people accept that religions as a good religions without tagging it as satanic, it should not have any teaching of that of killing.
For all of the above, it is my opinion and please do not offended in any way. Religion is a interesting topic but also, a sensitive topic.
Supposedly I would say NO to killing babies. Doing this after giving birth for them would be a painful and depressing way to do (even if the baby's father is not your husband or something).
In my religion (Roman Catholic), killing newborn/babies would not ket then easily go straight to heaven. They have not been baptized, nor gave them proper funeral/s, and much more. Unblessed babies are remained in the middle portion of heaven and hell which is EARTH. That's why many of which needs a living person's help to give them points and slowly ascending them to heaven to become the Lord's servant/helper/guardian.
The whole child baptism thing is why many religions do not consider Catholics to be Christians. There is never a baptism after the age of consent.
| trousersalive wrote: |
Heres a question for the religious minded out there. If you absolutely believe that life on earth is all about getting into heaven for eternity, and you believe that by sinning you endanger this from happening. Why wouldnt you kill your babies as soon as they are born to ensure that they enter heaven? Surely life on earth is nothing compared to eternity in heaven? Admittedly you would reduce your chances of getting in but that would be the ultimate sacrifice to get your family in. Surely.
I should point out here that I am a card carrying humanist and would never advocate such horrific activities. |
To be allowed in heaven you need to be one of the chosen, if you're baby is not chosen it would go straight to hell. How does that sound? It sounds the same as the thing you're suggesting. It's complete nonsense. The eternal God doesn't work that way. You can't just sneak your babies into heaven and especially not by killing them. I can understand the thought, but believe me, those people who practise such horrors will surely burn forever... unless they would be saved by God himself. 
These are pretty heavy topics, people.I guess this is only for those who believe in an afterlife/heaven.
If the child could live, then surely it would deserve to? Even for a second?
Are we putting too much value on life? If we accept the general Christian view that heaven is forever, a few decades on Earth is pretty insignificant. If a person accepts that he is condemning himself to hell by killing his children (in order to save them whatever pain life may deal them), why is that so terrible in the long view?
BTW- Here is a clip from wikipedia about some Christian thought on kids dying before being baptised. Seems there is no consensus.
| Quote: |
* The Limbo of Infants refers to a hypothetical permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed from original sin. Some who hold the theory of the Limbo of Infants regard it as a state of maximum natural happiness, others as one of "mildest punishment" consisting at least of privation of the beatific vision and of any hope of obtaining it. This theory, in any of its forms, has never been dogmatically defined by the Church, and recent Catholic theological speculation stresses more the hope that these infants may attain heaven instead of the supposed state of Limbo, while the directly opposed theological opinion also exists, namely that there is no afterlife state intermediate between salvation and damnation, and that all the unbaptized are damned. |
This whole thought line brings to mind my confusion over the sadness most Christians feel about the death of a loved one. If you believe the deceased is going to heaven, shouldn't you be happy about their passing?
Keep in mind, folks, this is only a hypothetical discussion to see what people think about life, death, and heaven. No one here really thinks killing anyone is a good idea. I believe that sadness is more from the fact they will miss them until reunited. Along the same lines of why loved ones cry when they part for extended periods of time. Situations like child most go overseas to study. Or loved one must go away to war.
In response to the original poster: I'm a Christian. And as sad as it may sound, humans are not born innocent. Like mentioned earlier, if a child does not make the choice they will not enter into heaven. I understand this may appear to be unfair. However, with my limited knowledge of the bible that is my conclusion.
A lot of denominations have tried to tackle this question. And I have yet to see a unified agreement to its answer. If you are a Christian, there are many references in the bible that shed light to this topic. If you are not, at the least, it can be some interesting reading.
I'm not even sure whether or not I believe in God, but here is my answer from what I feel is a Christian perspective:
Presumably, humans were created with free will because this was the only way that they could truly have a deep, loving and active relationship with their creator. God obviously thought it 'worth the risk' to create Man in the first place---even to create Lucifer!---even though he knew that many of them would 'choose' to be separated from him for eternity. By this logic, I think it would be seen (in Abrahamic religions) as 'worth the risk' to allow a child to grow up with the hazards of disbelief, sin and rejection of God. Additionally, as 'innocent' as children are born (in Christianity), they are still (as far as I can see) 'made' and not 'begotten': bereft of Zoe.
Of course, this is a totally simplified version and completely ignores all quibbles about determinism/predestination/free will, which I personally see as the greatest barriers to belief in an all-loving God. These are not my beliefs, but this is the sort of stance which I would consider taking were I to become a Christian.
So I stop the function of a child body I spare that soul a 'hell' - but sending my soul there... So I did the ultimate sacrifice - my soul - for another. That's beautiful actually! So the whole purpose of life then would be of sending your soul to hell so save another, in fact...
So I you were the ever loving creator - would you design a 'hell'? - No, that would just be silly. Time to redesign the bible!
| Seanwang wrote: |
In christianity (forgive me if i am wrong as I am nt a christian), I understand that god have create each and everyone of us for a purpose and the purpose is to follow god will. Hence, killing your kids without letting them fulfill their purpose is a NONO to the christianity. It is a free will to choose for yourself but not for others even it is your children.
. |
So what happens if gods will is for you to kill babies? Or if you use your free will to decide to kill babies?
Apparantly jesus performed the ultimate sacrifice for humanity (which incidentally isnt much of a sacrifice if you are not even human and are all powerful etc etc) so why shouldnt parents perform such a sacrifice for their kids.
