Ok, check this out: I clicked on an advertisement saying: Is there a God? Find out now! . So I read this "God Argument". (Not really an argument because one person wrote it.) Anything that is blue is my argument against what this article says.
(The webpage is here: http://www.thegodargument.com/#eternal)
The God Argument
Is there a God? That is the age old question! It seems everywhere I look these days; the belief in God is becoming more and more unpopular. The belief in God is now likened to the belief in fairy tales. The God Argument seeks to demonstrate that the belief in God is more than blind faith, but one based in logic and science. And that a Creator God is in fact the best explanation for the origin of the universe. It is a very simple argument and spelled out so that anyone can understand it.
The God Argument is based on the philosophy that if you can disprove all possible answers to a question except one, then that one answer is true! An example of this would be if you are taking a multiple choice test with four choices, and you know that B, C, and D are wrong, then you know A is correct! You prove 'A' is correct by disproving the other three choices. You do not need to directly prove that A is correct, it is correct by default.
And thus The God Argument starts with the following multiple choice question:
How did the universe come into existence?
1. The Universe is Eternal
2. The Universe is an illusion
3. The Universe Came From Nothing
4. God Created the universe
*We are not aware of any other possible explanations for the existence of the universe. But there may be others we haven't thought of. And so this argument does not attempt to offer absolute proof for God. We are only trying to simply show using science and logic that God is the best known explanation for the universe. It is based on the hypothetical element that these are the only possible options which we fairly acknowledge throughout.
*You are not aware of any other possible explanations for the existence of the universe.
Is The Universe Eternal?
The Kalam Argument demonstrates using simple logic that the universe cannot be eternal. The argument is initially credited to Aristotle.
The Kalam argument says that if the universe is eternal, then the past must be eternal and without a beginning.
Why does the past have to be eternal as well?
But if the past was eternal, then we could have never arrived at the "NOW". To get to the "Now" from an eternal past, means we would have had to traverse (go through) an infinite amount of time (all of eternal history)!
Um...we wouldn't be conscious so we wouldn't be traversing through.
But that's impossible, it's like trying to count to infinity, you can count on forever but you will never arrive!
Again, who said the past was eternal besides the Bible and this Kalam person, and even if it was we wouldn't know it because we didn't exist.
A good analogy is trying to jump out of a bottomless pit, you won't have much luck.
The world of time we live in and eternity are two very different things. Time cannot be eternal in the past as we could never traverse infinity or have an infinite succession of events. The universe could go on forever without end, but this is different from being eternal and unchanging.
Last time I checked, "going on forever without end"="being eternal".
Choice #1 is false.
If you say so.
Is The Universe Just an Illusion?
The argument that the universe is an illusion seeks to avoid the whole God and Big Bang issue by simply saying the universe really doesn't exist. In fact as we are part of the universe, it means that we do not exist either, and thus we don't need to worry about the origin of the universe because it's not real. This is perhaps the weakest argument we will look at, but nevertheless we will logically debunk it.
Let's start with the definition of the word illusion. According to answers.com, an illusion is "an erroneous perception of reality". When we look at this definition, the key word is perception! Illusion is dependant upon perception and to have an illusion means you need a "real" observer perceiving it! Without an observer there is no illusion. If you are experiencing the universe, whether it is matter, quarks, or just an illusion of them, in any case, you are real. And if you are real then there is still something and thus we are back at the same problem of where did this "something" come from?
So we cannot negate the universe by simply saying it is an illusion. We can say it is like the movie the "Matrix", but there still has to be a "reality" behind the illusion or minimally something experiencing it.
Choice #2 is false. Actually I know no scientists that think the universe is an illusion, and secondly the definition of illusion depends on your point of view.
Did the Universe come from nothing?
Scientists tell us they can trace the beginning of the universe back to the first microsecond. They trace time back to an initial explosion we have come to know as the "Big Bang" that caused the universe we now experience. This is the theory used to account for the origins of the universe by atheists and/or evolutionists, and is of course backed up by science. So does the "Big Bang" theory backed by science remove God from the equation?
Let's go back to my first sentence and how science traces time back to the first microsecond of history. The problem is that they can't account for what happened before, or when there would have been "NO" universe or nothing! In other words the "Big Bang" theory doesn't tell us anything about the initial "cause" of the universe or where it came from, just how it happened.
Like I said earlier you haven't heard of any other universal theories, like the theory about the universe collapsing and expanding. You haven't even seen the movie Kpax
So regarding the problem of the origin of the universe, this doesn't tell us anything. It doesn't demonstrate how something initially came out of nothing. If the universe is finite as this option holds to, then there would have been absolutely nothing and then there would have been something which then exploded into the universe. So "something" had to come from "nothing" if we say God did not cause the Big Bang. But this goes against the laws of science. Science says that " energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can change its form". So if energy cannot be created but only change its form, then how could something initially come from nothing? The answer is it can't happen unless you break the laws of science!
Actually scientists have discovered matter can spawn from nothing.
Let's now do an experiment to try and prove something can come from nothing. First we need absolutely nothing and let's put it in a box. I believe Wal-Mart sells boxes of nothing for next to nothing. Then let's sit and wait for something to appear. Remember we cannot add anything to our experiment, such as a spark or some kind of fuel, we can only wait. If we wait long enough something will surely come from the nothing in our box. Some gold coins would be real nice! Does this sound like science to you? But this is what many scientists want you to believe regarding the universe, the same ones that make light out of the belief that God created the universe.
Wow I'm sure scientists put the same expensive amount of funding in the experiments they make too.
Science may soon figure out a way to tap the earth's magnetic field with some kind of "free energy" device. The device may give out more energy than is put in, but in this case it would simply be tapping into the earth's magnetic field, and not creating energy. Think of a "free energy" battery (worth millions) that as it's being used and drained of its energy, gets that energy instantly replaced from the earth's magnetic field. This energy would not be coming from nothing, but simply somewhere else, and not be breaking the laws of science.
Um yeah you just made a paradox for yourself. According to your logic, you said magnetic fields come from nothing.
In conclusion, something cannot come from nothing, and this option is impossible unless we break the laws of science.
Choice #3 is false.
If you say so.
God Created the Universe
Now that we have shown that the first three options could not be true,
Actually, we did not show. We showed that you are incompetent and biased
then unless there are other options we have missed, God had to have created the universe. Proving God exists or doesn't exist directly is impossible to do, but proving he exists through disproving all other options is not.
You did not even list any other options.
We are not saying we conclusively have done this, but simply that out of all known explanations for the universe, a Creator God makes the most sense when we properly use science and logic.
You haven't even researched into other explanations of the universe.
Knowing that the universe cannot be eternal, a complete illusion, and that it could not have come from nothing (without breaking the laws of science and logic), God is the only known explanation left standing. We do not need to prove God directly or explain how God is eternal or how something eternal interacts with time and space. By eliminating through science and logic all other known options, God is the right answer to our question!
Perhaps before you try rewriting this whole "argument" you can actually put some high school grade research into it. And also maybe someone to argue with?
One thing that is very interesting is there is one particular creation story that says the universe was created by song. Some of the latest scientific theories claim that the universe is nothing more than waves, simply a bunch of frequencies. How interesting is it that the Bible says that God "spoke" the world into existence!
Unlike you, I actually plan on researching this new theory I have not heard of before.
In Closing
It has always been my belief that truth is simple. I believe there is a real lack of emotional intelligence in Mainstream Science. When someone has a bias fueled by anger for example, they may desperately try to disprove something they know in their hearts is true. This happens a lot in the scientific community and when someone very intelligent has a bone to pick with the church or God, they tend to complicate things as much as possible to supposedly show there is no God. And thus all kinds of crazy theories and ideas only a rocket scientist can understand are created. These people will use strange logic and thinking to prove their theories, but yet will not use the same logic in their everyday lives. They may for example use logic to show that logic can't be trusted! Well if logic can't be trusted, then how can we use it to show that it can't? This is just one example, but I could go on forever.
Um...I think it is you are the one who is biased. You are probably too afraid to research into other theories other than ones that you heard about in 5th grade from hearsay. Secondly, saying generic terms like "rocket science" and "crazy theories" are not in your benefit. And you assume that atheists "know in their hearts God is true." Thirdly, I think your logic is simply a product of being taught something over and over again, and being puzzled at the thought of eternity and matter spawning for no reason. (The human brain tends to go into loops when thought as abstract as this occurs.)
Another example is if you ask an evolutionist where a watch came from he or she found on the beach, you would be told from a watch store or a watch factory. Not that it must have materialized on the beach out of nothing, or that the sand must of evolved into a watch. But yet when it comes to the origins of the universe and life, they think this way. It is ok to think in ways that are unnatural and unscientific to supposedly prove their theories, but yet they would never do so in everyday life! This hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me.
Wow. You never cease to amaze me with your stupidity.
There will be many of these people who do these same sorts of logical gymnastics on "The God Argument". The more they can complicate things the better chance they have of sounding like an "Expert" and making you feel dumb.
If your argument was more "complicated", it would be less "dumb" and more like an Experts
Like a sharp lawyer spinning an argument to let a killer go free, they want you to yield to their intelligence and not necessarily the truth. But if you remember in school or if you're still in school, many of the so called brains who could score a 1600 on their SAT, had no common sense or emotional intelligence (not all).
Actually, lawyers use research, also, in general, people who score 1600 on SAT have vast amounts of common sense.
When it comes to finding the truth, you are the only "Expert" you should ever trust. Yes, you should research what experts on both sides of an argument say, but in the end it is YOU who needs to decide. You should never put blind faith in any particular expert or let experts make your decisions for you.
I can finally agree with you for once! People! don't listen to this guy!
One thing that should raise a red flag is when suddenly it is declared that now EVERYONE knows something to be true. This is usually nothing more than propaganda that is used to shape your beliefs. I don't know about you but I don't like when people tell me what I believe, especially the Mainstream Media. I will always think for myself, and I do not need any expert to do it for me.
Finally! You are starting to show you still have hope!
The truth is very simple, and for everyone, no one has the patent on truth! Science is also for everyone, not just those who hold to a particular theory. It truly amazes me how much of what I will call Mainstream Science is unscientific and irrational. And when you disagree with MSS and one of its theories, they try to say you are disagreeing with science as a whole, not just a theory! How arrogant is it to claim to own science?
Tell me about it! I just got banned from a forum for disagreeing with Newtonian laws of gravity! (he was this guy, that though of this formula for gravity and the gravitational constant, which is this number equal to 6.67*10^-11...
Anyway, I wish you all the best in forming your beliefs about God and the world around us. God says that if you seek him with all your heart, you will find him. Try him out!
Please send your comments or questions about The God Argument to info@thegodargument.com.
I hope next time I will read a website about God that is unbiased and actually knows what they are talking about, regardless if they are an atheist or not. A website I can take seriously and not laugh about. Maybe an actual argument (like you know, when 2 people have different opinions) not a page of biasedness?
(The webpage is here: http://www.thegodargument.com/#eternal)
The God Argument
Is there a God? That is the age old question! It seems everywhere I look these days; the belief in God is becoming more and more unpopular. The belief in God is now likened to the belief in fairy tales. The God Argument seeks to demonstrate that the belief in God is more than blind faith, but one based in logic and science. And that a Creator God is in fact the best explanation for the origin of the universe. It is a very simple argument and spelled out so that anyone can understand it.
The God Argument is based on the philosophy that if you can disprove all possible answers to a question except one, then that one answer is true! An example of this would be if you are taking a multiple choice test with four choices, and you know that B, C, and D are wrong, then you know A is correct! You prove 'A' is correct by disproving the other three choices. You do not need to directly prove that A is correct, it is correct by default.
And thus The God Argument starts with the following multiple choice question:
How did the universe come into existence?
1. The Universe is Eternal
2. The Universe is an illusion
3. The Universe Came From Nothing
4. God Created the universe
*We are not aware of any other possible explanations for the existence of the universe. But there may be others we haven't thought of. And so this argument does not attempt to offer absolute proof for God. We are only trying to simply show using science and logic that God is the best known explanation for the universe. It is based on the hypothetical element that these are the only possible options which we fairly acknowledge throughout.
*You are not aware of any other possible explanations for the existence of the universe.
Is The Universe Eternal?
The Kalam Argument demonstrates using simple logic that the universe cannot be eternal. The argument is initially credited to Aristotle.
The Kalam argument says that if the universe is eternal, then the past must be eternal and without a beginning.
Why does the past have to be eternal as well?
But if the past was eternal, then we could have never arrived at the "NOW". To get to the "Now" from an eternal past, means we would have had to traverse (go through) an infinite amount of time (all of eternal history)!
Um...we wouldn't be conscious so we wouldn't be traversing through.
But that's impossible, it's like trying to count to infinity, you can count on forever but you will never arrive!
Again, who said the past was eternal besides the Bible and this Kalam person, and even if it was we wouldn't know it because we didn't exist.
A good analogy is trying to jump out of a bottomless pit, you won't have much luck.
The world of time we live in and eternity are two very different things. Time cannot be eternal in the past as we could never traverse infinity or have an infinite succession of events. The universe could go on forever without end, but this is different from being eternal and unchanging.
Last time I checked, "going on forever without end"="being eternal".
Choice #1 is false.
If you say so.
Is The Universe Just an Illusion?
The argument that the universe is an illusion seeks to avoid the whole God and Big Bang issue by simply saying the universe really doesn't exist. In fact as we are part of the universe, it means that we do not exist either, and thus we don't need to worry about the origin of the universe because it's not real. This is perhaps the weakest argument we will look at, but nevertheless we will logically debunk it.
Let's start with the definition of the word illusion. According to answers.com, an illusion is "an erroneous perception of reality". When we look at this definition, the key word is perception! Illusion is dependant upon perception and to have an illusion means you need a "real" observer perceiving it! Without an observer there is no illusion. If you are experiencing the universe, whether it is matter, quarks, or just an illusion of them, in any case, you are real. And if you are real then there is still something and thus we are back at the same problem of where did this "something" come from?
So we cannot negate the universe by simply saying it is an illusion. We can say it is like the movie the "Matrix", but there still has to be a "reality" behind the illusion or minimally something experiencing it.
Choice #2 is false. Actually I know no scientists that think the universe is an illusion, and secondly the definition of illusion depends on your point of view.
Did the Universe come from nothing?
Scientists tell us they can trace the beginning of the universe back to the first microsecond. They trace time back to an initial explosion we have come to know as the "Big Bang" that caused the universe we now experience. This is the theory used to account for the origins of the universe by atheists and/or evolutionists, and is of course backed up by science. So does the "Big Bang" theory backed by science remove God from the equation?
Let's go back to my first sentence and how science traces time back to the first microsecond of history. The problem is that they can't account for what happened before, or when there would have been "NO" universe or nothing! In other words the "Big Bang" theory doesn't tell us anything about the initial "cause" of the universe or where it came from, just how it happened.
Like I said earlier you haven't heard of any other universal theories, like the theory about the universe collapsing and expanding. You haven't even seen the movie Kpax
So regarding the problem of the origin of the universe, this doesn't tell us anything. It doesn't demonstrate how something initially came out of nothing. If the universe is finite as this option holds to, then there would have been absolutely nothing and then there would have been something which then exploded into the universe. So "something" had to come from "nothing" if we say God did not cause the Big Bang. But this goes against the laws of science. Science says that " energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can change its form". So if energy cannot be created but only change its form, then how could something initially come from nothing? The answer is it can't happen unless you break the laws of science!
Actually scientists have discovered matter can spawn from nothing.
Let's now do an experiment to try and prove something can come from nothing. First we need absolutely nothing and let's put it in a box. I believe Wal-Mart sells boxes of nothing for next to nothing. Then let's sit and wait for something to appear. Remember we cannot add anything to our experiment, such as a spark or some kind of fuel, we can only wait. If we wait long enough something will surely come from the nothing in our box. Some gold coins would be real nice! Does this sound like science to you? But this is what many scientists want you to believe regarding the universe, the same ones that make light out of the belief that God created the universe.
Wow I'm sure scientists put the same expensive amount of funding in the experiments they make too.
Science may soon figure out a way to tap the earth's magnetic field with some kind of "free energy" device. The device may give out more energy than is put in, but in this case it would simply be tapping into the earth's magnetic field, and not creating energy. Think of a "free energy" battery (worth millions) that as it's being used and drained of its energy, gets that energy instantly replaced from the earth's magnetic field. This energy would not be coming from nothing, but simply somewhere else, and not be breaking the laws of science.
Um yeah you just made a paradox for yourself. According to your logic, you said magnetic fields come from nothing.
In conclusion, something cannot come from nothing, and this option is impossible unless we break the laws of science.
Choice #3 is false.
If you say so.
God Created the Universe
Now that we have shown that the first three options could not be true,
Actually, we did not show. We showed that you are incompetent and biased
then unless there are other options we have missed, God had to have created the universe. Proving God exists or doesn't exist directly is impossible to do, but proving he exists through disproving all other options is not.
You did not even list any other options.
We are not saying we conclusively have done this, but simply that out of all known explanations for the universe, a Creator God makes the most sense when we properly use science and logic.
You haven't even researched into other explanations of the universe.
Knowing that the universe cannot be eternal, a complete illusion, and that it could not have come from nothing (without breaking the laws of science and logic), God is the only known explanation left standing. We do not need to prove God directly or explain how God is eternal or how something eternal interacts with time and space. By eliminating through science and logic all other known options, God is the right answer to our question!
Perhaps before you try rewriting this whole "argument" you can actually put some high school grade research into it. And also maybe someone to argue with?
One thing that is very interesting is there is one particular creation story that says the universe was created by song. Some of the latest scientific theories claim that the universe is nothing more than waves, simply a bunch of frequencies. How interesting is it that the Bible says that God "spoke" the world into existence!
Unlike you, I actually plan on researching this new theory I have not heard of before.
In Closing
It has always been my belief that truth is simple. I believe there is a real lack of emotional intelligence in Mainstream Science. When someone has a bias fueled by anger for example, they may desperately try to disprove something they know in their hearts is true. This happens a lot in the scientific community and when someone very intelligent has a bone to pick with the church or God, they tend to complicate things as much as possible to supposedly show there is no God. And thus all kinds of crazy theories and ideas only a rocket scientist can understand are created. These people will use strange logic and thinking to prove their theories, but yet will not use the same logic in their everyday lives. They may for example use logic to show that logic can't be trusted! Well if logic can't be trusted, then how can we use it to show that it can't? This is just one example, but I could go on forever.
Um...I think it is you are the one who is biased. You are probably too afraid to research into other theories other than ones that you heard about in 5th grade from hearsay. Secondly, saying generic terms like "rocket science" and "crazy theories" are not in your benefit. And you assume that atheists "know in their hearts God is true." Thirdly, I think your logic is simply a product of being taught something over and over again, and being puzzled at the thought of eternity and matter spawning for no reason. (The human brain tends to go into loops when thought as abstract as this occurs.)
Another example is if you ask an evolutionist where a watch came from he or she found on the beach, you would be told from a watch store or a watch factory. Not that it must have materialized on the beach out of nothing, or that the sand must of evolved into a watch. But yet when it comes to the origins of the universe and life, they think this way. It is ok to think in ways that are unnatural and unscientific to supposedly prove their theories, but yet they would never do so in everyday life! This hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me.
Wow. You never cease to amaze me with your stupidity.
There will be many of these people who do these same sorts of logical gymnastics on "The God Argument". The more they can complicate things the better chance they have of sounding like an "Expert" and making you feel dumb.
If your argument was more "complicated", it would be less "dumb" and more like an Experts
Like a sharp lawyer spinning an argument to let a killer go free, they want you to yield to their intelligence and not necessarily the truth. But if you remember in school or if you're still in school, many of the so called brains who could score a 1600 on their SAT, had no common sense or emotional intelligence (not all).
Actually, lawyers use research, also, in general, people who score 1600 on SAT have vast amounts of common sense.
When it comes to finding the truth, you are the only "Expert" you should ever trust. Yes, you should research what experts on both sides of an argument say, but in the end it is YOU who needs to decide. You should never put blind faith in any particular expert or let experts make your decisions for you.
I can finally agree with you for once! People! don't listen to this guy!
One thing that should raise a red flag is when suddenly it is declared that now EVERYONE knows something to be true. This is usually nothing more than propaganda that is used to shape your beliefs. I don't know about you but I don't like when people tell me what I believe, especially the Mainstream Media. I will always think for myself, and I do not need any expert to do it for me.
Finally! You are starting to show you still have hope!
The truth is very simple, and for everyone, no one has the patent on truth! Science is also for everyone, not just those who hold to a particular theory. It truly amazes me how much of what I will call Mainstream Science is unscientific and irrational. And when you disagree with MSS and one of its theories, they try to say you are disagreeing with science as a whole, not just a theory! How arrogant is it to claim to own science?
Tell me about it! I just got banned from a forum for disagreeing with Newtonian laws of gravity! (he was this guy, that though of this formula for gravity and the gravitational constant, which is this number equal to 6.67*10^-11...
Anyway, I wish you all the best in forming your beliefs about God and the world around us. God says that if you seek him with all your heart, you will find him. Try him out!
Please send your comments or questions about The God Argument to info@thegodargument.com.
I hope next time I will read a website about God that is unbiased and actually knows what they are talking about, regardless if they are an atheist or not. A website I can take seriously and not laugh about. Maybe an actual argument (like you know, when 2 people have different opinions) not a page of biasedness?
