-Incites violence:
* incites Wars (country to country level)
* incites terrorist acts (religious group to religious group level)
* incites hate crimes (person to person level).
-Hinders science
* blocks scientific research (stem cells and what not)
* hinders science in school (creationism and what not)
* puts scientists under threat (can talk about every time in history scientists have been threatend, like early astronomers and the catholic church).
-It is anti individual
-It actually stops personal responsibility (I do what I'm told cos god tells me (God told Bush to invade Iraq))
-It stops people thinking (The universe? God made it, that's enough for me)
-Wastes time and money
-Encourages loss of rights (anti-obscenity, discrimination, "blue laws", etc.)
Religion discourages rational thinking, and belief in superstition and myth. It teaches people to be obediant, and not to question. It also breeds intolerance against other groups (like gays) for no good reason than the fact that they read it in a 2000 year old mythology book.
-Sam Harris in his book "Letter to a Christian Nation" notes that countries with high levels of religious belief, especially fundamentalist belief, consistently rate lower on human development measures like poverty, crime rate, educational achievement, infant mortality etc etc. The trend holds true for the U.S., which scores far lower on most of these measures than other developed countries, despite being by far the richest and most powerful country in the world.
The comparison is too broad to imply any causality, but the numbers are certainly suggestive.
-Adds to population growth and prevents people from protecting themselves against deadly diseases such as aids by refusing to allow people to use birth control.
-Division - even amongst other believers, that religion sows. Look at modern Iraq, where Sunni muslims kill Shia muslims and vice versa for believing a slightly different thing. This is different than "incites violence" because it encourages discriminatory laws, such as the one in Anglican England that Catholics could not own property or businesses.
-You could also show the greed of the church throughout history. From the very beginning, it's all been about money and control. This guy has a good video about this (after a bit at the beginning): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cUC3swmImA
OK, help me out and continue the list None of those charges are against religion in general. All of them are against specific religions. If every instance of Whatever in the world was harmful, that does not necessarily make Whatever itself harmful. It may just be that no one has yet established a benign version of Whatever.
Your issues are with specific religions, and/or (in some cases) just the crimes of specific religions, not religion in general.
| LovE-RicH wrote: |
-Incites violence:
* incites Wars (country to country level)
* incites terrorist acts (religious group to religious group level)
* incites hate crimes (person to person level). |
*Name all the wars that were based on religion. Now name me all the wars that were based from nationalism. Nationalism is the mother of all wars, and nationalism, is the belief that you are better than them because where you were born, and that is against religion who believe that all men are equals.
*Religion is not the reason for terrorist acts, but rather, nationalism. Bin Laden attacked America not because God told him to do it, but because America funds the terrorist state of Israel with more funds than she gives to anywhere else in the world, including the whole of Africa. Israel then use this wealth to illegally occupy Palestinian land. Thus, Ladens acts are in an act of revenge and also in an act of nationalism for his roots, and that being arab.
*I dont see how religion incits hate crimes on a person to person level. The only hate it creates is the idea that an innocent should not be equal to a guilty, and that is perfectly acceptable. We should hate the murderers but love those who give to charity in abundance.
| LovE-RicH wrote: |
-Hinders science
* blocks scientific research (stem cells and what not)
* hinders science in school (creationism and what not)
* puts scientists under threat (can talk about every time in history scientists have been threatend, like early astronomers and the catholic church). |
-Religion does not hinder science. For instance, if we look at the arab era (7AD-16AD), we will see ample contributions by the Muslims with respect to science including building first university, first medical amputation, algebra, algorithms, 0, etc etc
*Religion blocks immorality, and "not" good scientific research.
*If anything, religion is what is underattack and not athiests
| LovE-RicH wrote: |
| -It is anti individual |
I don't quite understand what u mean by this.
| LovE-RicH wrote: |
| -It actually stops personal responsibility (I do what I'm told cos god tells me (God told Bush to invade Iraq)) |
Incorrect. religion is based on laws as well. If God told Bush to invade Iraq, then it would contradict everything else, because religion says " do not kill" Judge religion by the book, not by the people.
| LovE-RicH wrote: |
| -It stops people thinking (The universe? God made it, that's enough for me) |
Religion encourgaes to love. you cannot love something if you dont understand it. Therefore to say it stops thinking is false. Religious people appreciate the universe more, and thus learn about it.. ie. How God created it? Ie.. how the big bang occured.
The only issue debatable about the universe, is not the big band, but rather what was before it,, was it absolutely nothing as Hawkings proclaims, or is it God as religious people acclaim.
Atheists views are therefore just as biased as religious people. Because religious people would say God created it, and atheists would say it was created from nothing.
Therefore, if your arguement is correct for religious people, then it is correct for the athiest jsut as equally.
| LovE-RicH wrote: |
| -Wastes time and money |
I dont see how. People learn to give give and give. and in return they receive receiev receiev.
Religious books are usually next to nothing. and time, well reading increases ur reading proficiency.
| LovE-RicH wrote: |
-Encourages loss of rights (anti-obscenity, discrimination, "blue laws", etc.)
Religion discourages rational thinking, and belief in superstition and myth. It teaches people to be obediant, and not to question. It also breeds intolerance against other groups (like gays) for no good reason than the fact that they read it in a 2000 year old mythology book.
|
religion encourages rational thinking. Newton was religious, Al-Khworizimi was religious, Sigmond freud was religious and a host of other great thinkers.
Now lets look at anti-religous thinkers.. The best i can think of is Hawkings... and he himself says he rejected some of his views because it gave rise to a devine creator.
Religion teaches obidence in good, and abstrainment from what is evil.
it breeds intolerance to gays because homosexuality goes against science and nature, on the breeding element as well as the compatiability part.
| LovE-RicH wrote: |
-Sam Harris in his book "Letter to a Christian Nation" notes that countries with high levels of religious belief, especially fundamentalist belief, consistently rate lower on human development measures like poverty, crime rate, educational achievement, infant mortality etc etc. The trend holds true for the U.S., which scores far lower on most of these measures than other developed countries, despite being by far the richest and most powerful country in the world.
The comparison is too broad to imply any causality, but the numbers are certainly suggestive.
|
The general trend is: the more wealthier a nation gets, the more its people become ignorant of God. The reason: Materialistic greed
Regarding America, I would not consider then religious since (dont quote me on this, but its something similar) but more than half the Christian population don't even go to church once a week.
| LovE-RicH wrote: |
| -Adds to population growth and prevents people from protecting themselves against deadly diseases such as aids by refusing to allow people to use birth control. |
Adds to population growth? as in because of less wars, then you are correct. Nationalism is the biggest war maker and not religion.
This idea of people refusing from protecting themselves from aids is silly. Religion encourages *all* life, nationalism encourages *your* life and yours only.
| LovE-RicH wrote: |
-Division - even amongst other believers, that religion sows. Look at modern Iraq, where Sunni muslims kill Shia muslims and vice versa for believing a slightly different thing. This is different than "incites violence" because it encourages discriminatory laws, such as the one in Anglican England that Catholics could not own property or businesses.
|
There is no room for arguement on this issue. Man will always fight over petty issues, and religion is not teh cause for it. For instance. if we take away the element of religion, then man will fight because of slight difference in skin colour, or difference in nationalism (ie. ones scottish and the other is english) or many other things.
In the same way there are more things that unite us than divide us, equally, there is more in religion that unites us than divides us.
We can all start with the belief that there is only one God, which all Muslims, Jews, CHristians, Sikhs, Hindus follow.
If we look at our similarities rather than differences, we will get somewhere in life and believe, there are more similarities than differences. therefore, this is not an issue of religion, but rather an issue of man himself.
| LovE-RicH wrote: |
| -You could also show the greed of the church throughout history. From the very beginning, it's all been about money and control. This guy has a good video about this (after a bit at the beginning): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cUC3swmImA |
Blame the people, and not religion. Don't judge a book by its cover. Don't judge religion by its followers, but judge it by what it teaches.
there you go...
have fun | Quote: |
| Bin Laden attacked America not because God told him to do it, but because America funds the terrorist state of Israel with more funds than she gives to anywhere else in the world, including the whole of Africa. |
You can't prove this unless you're Bin Laden himself.
| Quote: |
| *I dont see how religion incits hate crimes on a person to person level. The only hate it creates is the idea that an innocent should not be equal to a guilty, and that is perfectly acceptable. We should hate the murderers but love those who give to charity in abundance. |
Depending on your religion, you should love everyone and hate no one. There is no reason for hate, but people do it because they're human, not because they're religious. If you're Christian, you should really get to reading that Bible again. I don't think you've grasped the concept if you still hate murderers.
| Quote: |
| Religion does not hinder science. |
Christianity hinders some aspects of science, especially ones that tread the "moral" boundaries or contradict the teachings of that particular religion. Galileo was placed under house arrest by the Church for disproving that the Earth was in the center of the universe. The Church seeked to quiet him, hence it hindered truth and science.
The same goes with ES cells. If it weren't for Bush (due to his very pro-Christian views), we would have more funding for embryonic stem cell research. From his speech on stem cell research back in 2001, but he still holds the same views today:
| Quote: |
| I also believe human life is a sacred gift from our Creator. |
(from: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/08/20010809-2.html)
The (recent) bill passed in the house/senate, but he vetoed it. People who are not religious (or superstitious, I suppose... but that could be considered a religion too), imo, don't believe in a "Creator". There is nothing magic about life. There is, however, plenty of mystery.
| Quote: |
| we will see ample contributions by the Muslims with respect to science including building first university, first medical amputation, algebra, algorithms, 0, etc etc |
History is written by the winners. We may never know what wonderful ideas were silenced due to religion.
| Quote: |
| Religion blocks immorality, and "not" good scientific research. |
What if a lab were working on disproving God? Is THAT immoral? Do you think the Church would allow it?
| Quote: |
| *If anything, religion is what is underattack and not athiests |
Not all scientists are aethists. Nor can any lengthened "attacks" of any sort not be mutual.
| Quote: |
I don't quite understand what u mean by this. |
He probably means that religion has a way of herding people into believing in the same ideas without questioning them. He would be right. Then again, society and culture do the same thing.
| Quote: |
| Religious people appreciate the universe more, and thus learn about it.. ie. How God created it? Ie.. how the big bang occured. |
There is more than one way to "learn" about the universe. Just because you learned it a different way than me doesn't mean that you appreciate it more than I do.
| Quote: |
| The only issue debatable about the universe, is not the big band, but rather what was before it,, was it absolutely nothing as Hawkings proclaims, or is it God as religious people acclaim. |
Stephen Hawkings doesn't represent the entire scientific world, dude. He's a THEORETICAL physicist. He THINKS UP CRAP THAT NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES IN. Not everyone believes that the universe was created from nothing. The stuff they teach you in elementary school is NOT the same stuff as you experience in the scientific community. In fact, nothing is considered "fact" forever in science. If a lab disproves an accepted scientific theory, we certainly don't lock them up and place them in house arrest.
| Quote: |
I dont see how. People learn to give give and give. and in return they receive receiev receiev.
Religious books are usually next to nothing. and time, well reading increases ur reading proficiency. |
What about the priests that drive in Lexus'? Uhh yeah... no one is completely innocent.
| Quote: |
| it breeds intolerance to gays because homosexuality goes against science and nature, on the breeding element as well as the compatiability part. |
L.M.A.O.
Just like people born without a limb are going against nature right? Just like people who are mentally retarded? People with brown hair? Black skin? Short people, tall people, fat people, skinny people? Riiiight... you have NO idea how biology works. Jesus taught you to love everyone. Do it. THEN, you'll have right to slam the Bible in everyone's face.
| Quote: |
| Religion teaches obidence in good, and abstrainment from what is evil. |
Good and evil are not absolute concepts. Anything "good" can be defined as "stuff the Church wants you to do"; evil - vice versa.
| Quote: |
| Regarding America, I would not consider then religious since (dont quote me on this, but its something similar) but more than half the Christian population don't even go to church once a week. |
Yo. Christianity aint the only religion in the USA okay?
| Quote: |
| Adds to population growth? as in because of less wars, then you are correct. |
There are a lot of conflicts based on differences in religious views. For instance: Catholic Scotland vs. Protestant England. People die in conflicts.
However, I digress. I believe he's talking about people like the Duggar family (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9680098/). If you google search them, you'll eventually figure out that they're very VERY religious.
| Quote: |
| We can all start with the belief that there is only one God, which all Muslims, Jews, CHristians, Sikhs, Hindus follow. |
... Riiiight. Because those are the ONLY religions in this world.The main problem I see with religion is that they are exclusive and/or reclusive. No sense of community, or understanding.
Also, many religious institutions (Churches) have succumbed to materialism and thus lost their spirituality. They keep information from their clergy about the true nature of God becuase keeping people dumb and stupid is a great way to have control over them. $$$
| loryl wrote: |
| Quote: | | We can all start with the belief that there is only one God, which all Muslims, Jews, CHristians, Sikhs, Hindus follow. |
... Riiiight. Because those are the ONLY religions in this world. |
Essentially. Those religions make up more than 75% of the worlds population.
There is one Lord over all. Whether you want to call it God or the Universe. There is a maximum point of power, it can only be something Universal, out of this world, out of our minds!Hey everybody check this out!!!
Christians and Atheists to Debate the Existence of God on ABC
Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort of the Way of the Master will debate Brian Sapient and Kelly of the Rational Response Squad in the first "Nightline Face Off"!!!
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3130360&page=1
The discussion is set to be recorded on Saturday May 5th at 7:30 pm est. The discussion was supposed to air on ABC's website starting at 2pm est on Wednesday May 9th, but now it looks they changed their mind. Later that same night at 11:35 in your local timezone you can tune in to ABC TV to watch Nightline and you will see a recap of the discussion.
The Rational Response Squad will retain a copy of the recording and be able to distribute it to you for free viewing at some point, so check out thier site, too.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/
Be sure to watch it, as they'll most probably cover the subject of this topic, so then we can continue the debate here and talk about the show, too. Well, looking at extremists of religion, it's easy to see the problems. Let's take Christianity and Islam, mainly because they're the two largest religions on the planet. With Christian extremists, you have the anti-gay, ultraconservatives. Some of these people take the Bible quite literally, without insight or ration. With Muslim extremists, you have religious riots and divisions, local quarrels, etc. I'm not trying to say that any one is better than the other, I'm just giving examples.
Now, let's try to look at the good parts of religion. Most religions have some sort of ethical code, and if this is taken in moderation (by which I mean not governing our lives in their entirety, I don't see how ethics are wrong. If everyone was a little nicer, or more helpful or generous, would you have a problem with it? Also, not many of the main world religions are violent by nature. Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam all directly promote peace, and while Hinduism did promote a caste system, it did not directly encite fights (unless you take into account the fact that it encouraged warriors to fulfill their duties). So, in my opinion, religion in moderation is a good thing. I don't go to church, though, so maybe I'm misinformed.
1) Just for LovE-RicH. Just making the less than subtle point that there were other threads you could have easily necromanced. Especially as we seem to do this every few weeks or so...
[In fact, I had reported this thread. But as the moderators have apparently decided to let it be...]
2) Most of your post is based on anti-religious propaganda and popular (but not necessarily accurate) folklore. In no particular:
Myth 1: Religions promote ignorance. In actuality, most sciences have been helped along by religion. Alchemy and Astrology (which gave way to Chemistry and Astronomy) were in fact helped along by the early church, and math was definitely helped by just about every religions' looking into mystic numbers. Evolution and genetic theory also got a major boost from Christians. History even have benefited from religion, as the most honest histories were usually in temples and churches. Even art and architecture (and therefore engineering) have been given a serious springboard due to religion.
Admittedly there are flatlanders and there have been some setbacks (such as dinosaur bones), but usually science has benefited from the relationship. Even the Galileo incident was related more to Galileo's issues and an idiot pope than religion; the pope right afterwards not only repealed the anti-heliocentrist doctrine, but also published his papers at church cost.
Myth 2: Religion starts wars. In actuality, very few wars have been started by religion. In fact, most pacifists are that way due to their religion more than any other cause. Yet again, I'll point out that atheism (thanks to Hitler, Stalin, and Mao) have encouraged more death thanks to religion than any other religious group.
This also applies to terrorism and hate crimes. Most religions preach tolerance, which is the opposite of hatred, and religious terrorism is frowned upon (even by mainstream Islam).
Myth 3: Religion is against personal choice. Then explain the concepts of Hell and reincarnation, which are based on the idea that a person has to make choices, and that "God told me to" is usually a bad thing, as most religions also recognize that Satan (or his analogue) can disguise himself as whatever is needed to get the believer turned.
Then again, using Bush as your example is pretty bad, and should cost you points...
Myth 4: Religion is a waste of time and money. Few people would call charities a waste, and most tax laws recognize that they are great safety nets. Most charities, even those that are distinctly non-religious, still use religious themes in their policies.
This also dovetails nicely with the point that the Catholic Church must be incredibly greedy. In reality, the Catholic Church keeps very little and uses the vast majority of the rest in order to fund charity work of its own, which includes feeding the homeless, defending women, and even helping communities in need.
Myth 5: Religions encourages loss of rights. In actuality, most rights have been because of religion. Most notably, freedom from slavery is one that has more to do religion, as well as women's suffrage and general human rights.
Even the blue laws had a good reason at one point; bearing in mind that most predate current workers' rights legislation, they guaranteed that most workers would have at least one night off a week.
Myth 6: High levels of religious belief create lower human development at the national level. Depends on how you define it. The US may not have universal healthcare, but it's still a leader when it comes to personal rights, freedoms, and it's due to advances in American science that other countries have been able to enjoy those decreases (as well as America itself, please note). So the numbers may be suggestive, but that's about it.
I would also question your stance that anti-obscenity laws are bad. I'm not questioning that freedom of speech is bad, but I would question if racial epithets are something worth hanging onto.
Myth 7: Religion encourages population booms and diseases due to lack of birth control. I'd really like to know the logic on this one. If more people followed the precepts of most religions (ie, sex only among committed adults), STD's would be shut down and population would match the environments' ability to deal with it.
In fact, the only country where religion=population boom is India, and there are arguably other forces at work. In other countries, such as Sudan, lip service may be given to religion but the religion is obviously not followed too closely.
Myth 8: Religion fosters division. I'm not sure how to slam this one, so I'll just go with the generic "people will fight over anything." You can't blame religion for something people would do anyway, but I would rather quickly point out that religion has created common ground among people, thus allowing groups to get bigger.
-------------------------------
In general, I have no problems with your beliefs; as long as you believe in something, you'll have greater and longer life. I would like the same respect given mine...
HM | Quote: |
| Evolution and genetic theory also got a major boost from Christians. |
What boost? Just because someone is born Christian and does research doesn't mean that Christianity helped boost that particular field of interest. There's a difference between researching something because you believe in a religion and researching because you're out there to find the absolute truth. Most scientists aren't devoutly (or at all) religious.
| Quote: |
| History even have benefited from religion, as the most honest histories were usually in temples and churches. |
There is NO such thing as "honest" history. Every human being will give a biased view of the past (or present, if they're living it).
| Quote: |
| In actuality, very few wars have been started by religion. |
Both you and ThePolemistis have stated this. Prove it with a credible source.
| Quote: |
| Yet again, I'll point out that atheism (thanks to Hitler, Stalin, and Mao) have encouraged more death thanks to religion than any other religious group. |
Atheism is not the same thing as socialism. If it were, all atheists would be socialists and vice versa.
While we're on the topic of religion causing wars, I'd like to point out what some of your religious brethren are doing do their children: http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/ . Similar things happen in the middle east, but I think we all know that.
| Quote: |
| Then again, using Bush as your example is pretty bad, and should cost you points... |
Bush is a Christian, might not be the smartest one, but he's one of yours (we'd disown him if he were one of ours). We use him because he uses his Christianity background to dictate laws for a rather large and powerful country.
| Quote: |
| Most charities, even those that are distinctly non-religious, still use religious themes in their policies. |
Like UNICEF, one of the largest out there, right? Right...
| Quote: |
| In actuality, most rights have been because of religion. Most notably, freedom from slavery is one that has more to do religion, as well as women's suffrage and general human rights. |
Prove how religion helped advance the above.
| Quote: |
| The US may not have universal healthcare, but it's still a leader when it comes to personal rights, freedoms, and it's due to advances in American science that other countries have been able to enjoy those decreases (as well as America itself, please note). |
The US government is secular in nature. Your point is invalid.
| Quote: |
Essentially. Those religions make up more than 75% of the worlds population.
There is one Lord over all. Whether you want to call it God or the Universe. There is a maximum point of power, it can only be something Universal, out of this world, out of our minds! |
You're assuming that the other 25% are atheists. They're not. Polytheists live in this world too, you know. Nor do atheists believe that a universe rules over us. Just because we live in a place doesn't mean we worship it. It's like saying that your house rules over you because you live in your house. You don't see atheists praying to the universe for anything, do you?
I think what you fail to get here is that atheists believe that our universe is rational and is something we can understand if we devote time to studying it. Thus, it's certainly NOT out of this world or out of our minds.
| Quote: |
| In general, I have no problems with your beliefs; as long as you believe in something, you'll have greater and longer life. I would like the same respect given mine... |
It'll never happen. We are, after all, human. We are born to love, compete, persuade; be unique individuals with a passion for survival. You know it. 
| loryl wrote: |
What boost? Just because someone is born Christian and does research doesn't mean that Christianity helped boost that particular field of interest. There's a difference between researching something because you believe in a religion and researching because you're out there to find the absolute truth. Most scientists aren't devoutly (or at all) religious. |
Actually, the Catholic Church SPONSORED most academics during their beginnings (as in, they built libraries and universities, as well as gave research grants). Buddhist temples became major repositories of knowledge.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | History even have benefited from religion, as the most honest histories were usually in temples and churches. |
There is NO such thing as "honest" history. Every human being will give a biased view of the past (or present, if they're living it). |
Note: Most honest. As in, reasonably objective. As opposed to the "Burn all the old books and replace them with what I want".
| Quote: |
| Both you and ThePolemistis have stated this. Prove it with a credible source. |
Actually, you prove that wars have been started due to religion. I have yet to see a credible source on that.
| Quote: |
| Atheism is not the same thing as socialism. If it were, all atheists would be socialists and vice versa. |
Too bad I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that the biggest massacres over the last century (The Holocaust and the Soviet and Chinese purges) not only killed more people than all other religious conflicts (including the Inquisition, which is estimated to have killed about 250,000 people). They also tended to target religious people (not necessarily the main targets, but targeted nonetheless).
| Quote: |
| While we're on the topic of religion causing wars, I'd like to point out what some of your religious brethren are doing do their children: http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/ . Similar things happen in the middle east, but I think we all know that. |
Yeah...if that is a credible source to you, I'm not worried about your research skills...
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | Then again, using Bush as your example is pretty bad, and should cost you points... |
Bush is a Christian, might not be the smartest one, but he's one of yours (we'd disown him if he were one of ours). We use him because he uses his Christianity background to dictate laws for a rather large and powerful country. |
Again: Not a credible source. A lot of people debate his Christianity, especially as he's using it to justify the war (violence being non-Christian).
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | Most charities, even those that are distinctly non-religious, still use religious themes in their policies. |
Like UNICEF, one of the largest out there, right? Right... |
So, can you name any more? As in, a LOT more? An exception does not make a rule...
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | In actuality, most rights have been because of religion. Most notably, freedom from slavery is one that has more to do religion, as well as women's suffrage and general human rights. |
Prove how religion helped advance the above. |
Slavery was fought hardest and longest by various Christian groups, most notably the Quakers, and most abolitionist speakers used Bible passages to back them (The Bible has a number of masters releasing slaves, and of slaves winning freedom). The womens' suffrage movement was helped by a number of Christian groups, as well as demonstrating that women were the equal of men (most notably Mary, but Ruth and Sarah were mentioned a lot as well).
| Quote: |
| The US government is secular in nature. Your point is invalid. |
Then it shouldn't have been pointed out that the US having a lot fundamentalists had little human development. Of course, it was worth noting that the US itself was set up using the Christian philosophy as one of its cornerstones (the Founding Fathers being Deists, who believed in the basics of Christianity, but not its God).
| Quote: |
| You're assuming that the other 25% are atheists. They're not. Polytheists live in this world too, you know. Nor do atheists believe that a universe rules over us. Just because we live in a place doesn't mean we worship it. It's like saying that your house rules over you because you live in your house. You don't see atheists praying to the universe for anything, do you? |
Could you at least have the courtesy to point out when you are are quoting a different source? Yeesh.
And your analogy is broken. Most religious people don't see God as equal to Nature, but as something above it. That is, they see God as the person who built the house (even if the landlord sucks). Even those that don't believe in God tend to believe that the place itself has a conscience, and therefore deserves some respect.
In other words, most religious people aren't arrogant enough to think that humans are the top of the food chain...
| Quote: |
| I think what you fail to get here is that atheists believe that our universe is rational and is something we can understand if we devote time to studying it. Thus, it's certainly NOT out of this world or out of our minds. |
You know, of course, that by pointing that the universe is rational, you point out that it has some form of intelligence, correct? Also, most religious people are just as interesting in understanding the universe as atheists, we just consider it from from a spiritual aspect first, and then worry about the facts that can be proven.
| Quote: |
| It'll never happen. We are, after all, human. We are born to love, compete, persuade; be unique individuals with a passion for survival. You know it. |
I'm sorry if you are so limited then. I have no problem respecting other beliefs, as do a lot of other religious people (especially as it's realized that no single religion has a monopoly on the truth, and that there is a lot to be learned by comparing them). Too bad that you are limited in what you wish to understand; I pity you...
HMWhile religion can be harmful to society as a whole, in some of the ways you mentioned, it can also be beneficial. It gives people hope, it often helps reinforce order and morality and thus the whole concept of being "civilized"
Actually, I see it as the opposite, with religion as a whole beneficial to society, and only harmful when taken to an extreme.
HM
It's not religions them selves that cause the problems.
It's the intolerance towards other religions that causes problems.
INTOLERANCE!!
If you're allowed to make such broad generalizations like this, then I am allowed to say that all African Americans are criminals, all people with tattoos are criminals/outcasts/should be avoided, all homosexual men have AIDS, etc.
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-Incites violence:
* incites Wars (country to country level)
* incites terrorist acts (religious group to religious group level)
* incites hate crimes (person to person level). |
*Money + Land = Power. Religion is not involved in the equation. Religion is often times used as a false pretense, or an attempt at rationalizing a war which roots back to money, land, and power. People fight "in the name of religion" to try and make it alright. Besides, as mentioned earlier, extreme nationalism is the cause for MANY more wars.
*You're talking about specific religions, and in addition to very specific religions, you're going even narrower -- you've entered the point of radical religion. This is not true religion, it is misinterpretation and fanatical behavior. Like mentioned earlier, you cannot base your opinions of a group because of the actions of a couple of individuals of the group.
*Does it really? In my religion (Christianity) we are taught to love one another.
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-Hinders science
* blocks scientific research (stem cells and what not)
* hinders science in school (creationism and what not)
* puts scientists under threat (can talk about every time in history scientists have been threatend, like early astronomers and the catholic church). |
*It's not blocking the research, it is disapproving of it. Again, not all religion, only specific ones. And just because the religion is disapproving, it is not stopping the reasearch by ANY means.
*Creationism is not taught in schools, evolution is. [Though some schools have option Intelligent Design, it's not forced like evolution is]
*Science seems to be blossoming, even under the check of religion. I am talking in today's terms, not thousands of years ago. Religion has come a long way since then.
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| -It is anti individual |
No, it gives a support community, but is no means anti-individual. What about Satanism? Satanism is a religion that is based on self-worship and indulgence. Are you going to tell me that Satanism is anti-individual?
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| -It actually stops personal responsibility (I do what I'm told cos god tells me (God told Bush to invade Iraq)) |
It encourages personal responsibility because one must make decisions in regards to spirituality, as well as take responsibility for their actions (regardless of divine inspiration or not).
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| -It stops people thinking (The universe? God made it, that's enough for me) |
Wrong, yet again. I always quetion things, yet I am a faithful Christian. When we ask questions, that's how we learn. It's not enough for me to say "God made the universe" -- I am always looking to learn more.
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| -Wastes time and money |
How?
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-Encourages loss of rights (anti-obscenity, discrimination, "blue laws", etc.)
Religion discourages rational thinking, and belief in superstition and myth. It teaches people to be obediant, and not to question. It also breeds intolerance against other groups (like gays) for no good reason than the fact that they read it in a 2000 year old mythology book. |
If you read the Bible correctly, you will see that the message is to love one another, and not hate. The intolerance you see is based on the thoughts of a few individuals (few in regards to the 2 billion + Christians, as it appears you are going after Christianity here) who spoil everything for the group.
In Christianity, one is not allowed to judge because God is the judge. For someone to perform a hate crime, or say a gay is going to Hell, etc. is against the Bible and teaching of Christianity.
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-Sam Harris in his book "Letter to a Christian Nation" notes that countries with high levels of religious belief, especially fundamentalist belief, consistently rate lower on human development measures like poverty, crime rate, educational achievement, infant mortality etc etc. The trend holds true for the U.S., which scores far lower on most of these measures than other developed countries, despite being by far the richest and most powerful country in the world.
The comparison is too broad to imply any causality, but the numbers are certainly suggestive. |
It's not suggestive at all, as there are FAR too many variables for this information to have any credibility.
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| -Adds to population growth and prevents people from protecting themselves against deadly diseases such as aids by refusing to allow people to use birth control. |
Most religion doesn't. In fact, the one thing that comes to mind is only the Catholc Church, and even within that fewer people are anti-birth control. It's because religion respects life, and dislikes attempts to hinder the natural process of recreation. In the end, it's a personal decision. The impact on population growth by religion, if existent, is very small.
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| -Division - even amongst other believers, that religion sows. Look at modern Iraq, where Sunni muslims kill Shia muslims and vice versa for believing a slightly different thing. This is different than "incites violence" because it encourages discriminatory laws, such as the one in Anglican England that Catholics could not own property or businesses. |
And do you expect billions of people to be in total, 100% agreement? That would be very naive if you do...
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| -You could also show the greed of the church throughout history. From the very beginning, it's all been about money and control. This guy has a good video about this (after a bit at the beginning): |
You're looking at the greed of individuals, not religion. Most religion places an emphasis on charity anyways.
Again I say, you're going after select religions -- not all religions.
Last edited by Soulfire on Mon May 07, 2007 3:37 am; edited 1 time in total Just slamming Soulfire on a technicality: Creationism is taught in some schools (under Intelligent Design) as an option. Nonetheless, it is an exception, and definitely not the rule...
HM
| HereticMonkey wrote: |
Just slamming Soulfire on a technicality: Creationism is taught in some schools (under Intelligent Design) as an option. Nonetheless, it is an exception, and definitely not the rule...
HM |
Point and case: Evolution is forced, ID is an option.
(Did change it a bit though) | Quote: |
| Actually, the Catholic Church SPONSORED most academics during their beginnings (as in, they built libraries and universities, as well as gave research grants). |
But they hindered it too. There's always the umbrella assumption "God exists" that can never be proven false. Most of these instititions arose not to sponsor academics, but to study and promote their faith. Non-religious academics was secondary to religion. These academic institutions only sponsored ideas that promoted the nature of God and surpressed those that conflicted its religion. When there is such a skewed sponsorship of the academics, yes you'll have achievements in science, but you'll also lose many many good ideas.
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| Note: Most honest. As in, reasonably objective. As opposed to the "Burn all the old books and replace them with what I want". |
Most honest doesn't necessarily mean honest at all. You can use religious histories to study a history of that particular religion, but that can be said about any artifact.
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| Actually, you prove that wars have been started due to religion. I have yet to see a credible source on that. |
The First Crusade, initiated by Pope Urban II:
"The Popes offered privileges, both spiritual and temporal, to all who took the Cross."
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-049X%281916%2955%3A5%3C348%3ATPATC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-9
(Article published by Dana Munro in Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society Vol 55, No. 5.)
Your turn:
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In actuality, very few wars have been started by religion.
Both you and ThePolemistis have stated this. Prove it with a credible source. |
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| Yet again, I'll point out that atheism (thanks to Hitler, Stalin, and Mao) have encouraged more death thanks to religion than any other religious group. |
(emphasis mine.)
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| Atheism is not the same thing as socialism. If it were, all atheists would be socialists and vice versa. |
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| Too bad I'm not saying that. |
If you're not saying that atheism started these conflicts, then don't say it. Otherwise, you're implying that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao did whatever they did DUE TO their atheistic views on life.
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While we're on the topic of religion causing wars, I'd like to point out what some of your religious brethren are doing do their children: http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/ . Similar things happen in the middle east, but I think we all know that.
Yeah...if that is a credible source to you, I'm not worried about your research skills... |
I picked it because it was a source of information that led to a public reaction. Here is what happened, if you're curious:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003365311_jesuscamp08.html
You may now condemn your evangelistic brothers and sisters, but it doesn't change the fact that they're Christian too.
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| Again: Not a credible source. A lot of people debate his Christianity, especially as he's using it to justify the war (violence being non-Christian). |
Bush claims himself to be Christian. He may have used it to justify war, but he also used it to justify embryonic stem cell research and his marriage/family values. If he's not Christian, then what is he?
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Most charities, even those that are distinctly non-religious, still use religious themes in their policies.
Like UNICEF, one of the largest out there, right? Right...
So, can you name any more? As in, a LOT more? An exception does not make a rule... |
Here's what five minutes of research brings:
-Mayo Foundation.
-American Red Cross.
-American Cancer Society.
-Save the Children Federation.
-Big Brothers Big Sisters of America.
-March of Dimes.
-American Diabetes Association.
-Make-A-Wish Foundation of America (and other countries).
I don't specialize in chariable organizations. I could name more with more time, but I have finals to study for.
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| Slavery was fought hardest and longest by various Christian groups, most notably the Quakers |
I'm assuming you're talking about slavery in the United States. How much Quaker blood was shed? Aren't they, for the most part, anti-war?
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| Of course, it was worth noting that the US itself was set up using the Christian philosophy as one of its cornerstones (the Founding Fathers being Deists, who believed in the basics of Christianity, but not its God). |
However, the US government doesn't side with one religion or another. It doesn't use religion to dictate laws. Thus, your point is still invalid.
As for deism, the idea of a "god" is HARDLY a concept unique to Christianity. Islam and Judaism are also monotheistic in nature.
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| Could you at least have the courtesy to point out when you are are quoting a different source? Yeesh. |
You imply that you've run out of intelligent things to say when you have to resort to flaming another's quoting style.
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| Even those that don't believe in God tend to believe that the place itself has a conscience, and therefore deserves some respect. |
You are implying that those who don't believe in God believe that the universe as a conscience. However, I don't believe in a "god", yet I don't believe that "the place itself has a conscience", nor do I believe that it deserves any more respect (in the awe-inspiring sense) than I would give to anything else. Here's what I believe: our universe is made of matter (and antimatter). More simply, it's made of atoms. Atoms, due to attractive and repulsive forces, come together to form molecules. Molecules form the basis of... everything. (This is, of course, an oversimplified version of what I believe in.)
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| In other words, most religious people aren't arrogant enough to think that humans are the top of the food chain... |
Nor are most areligious people foolish enough to think that a God that hasn't been proven exists among us and helps us.
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| And your analogy is broken. Most religious people don't see God as equal to Nature, but as something above it. That is, they see God as the person who built the house (even if the landlord sucks). Even those that don't believe in God tend to believe that the place itself has a conscience, and therefore deserves some respect. |
Actually, I was disproving a previous quote using their analogy.
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| There is one Lord over all. Whether you want to call it God or the Universe. There is a maximum point of power, it can only be something Universal, out of this world, out of our minds! |
The universe is something we live in; it's a place, it's not our landlord.
However, we don't believe that your analogy regarding the atheistic equivalent of a landlord, physical laws, has a conscience either.
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| You know, of course, that by pointing that the universe is rational, you point out that it has some form of intelligence, correct? |
from Merriam Webster, http://www.m-w.com/ :
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Rational: 1b: relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason : reasonable <a rational explanation> <rational behavior> |
In this case, I was aiming for "based on reason". So no, I'm not pointing out at the universe has some form of intelligence.
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| I'm sorry if you are so limited then. I have no problem respecting other beliefs, as do a lot of other religious people (especially as it's realized that no single religion has a monopoly on the truth, and that there is a lot to be learned by comparing them). Too bad that you are limited in what you wish to understand; I pity you... |
If you truly respected atheism, you wouldn't force your religious beliefs on others. You may deny it all you want, but that's what you're doing in these posts. Persuasion and debate are both very effective ways to affect others' opinions. It's not MY opinion you're trying to change, it's others who read this thread.
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Creationism is not taught in schools, evolution is. [Though some schools have option Intelligent Design, it's not forced like evolution is] |
In the US public school system, which is secular in nature, that is true. In other types of schools (catholic schools, schools not in the country), no.
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| *Science seems to be blossoming, even under the check of religion. |
Science isn't as much under the check of religion as it was back then. Maybe that's why it's blossoming.Silly semantics...
| loryl wrote: |
But they hindered it too. There's always the umbrella assumption "God exists" that can never be proven false. Most of these instititions arose not to sponsor academics, but to study and promote their faith. Non-religious academics was secondary to religion. These academic institutions only sponsored ideas that promoted the nature of God and surpressed those that conflicted its religion. When there is such a skewed sponsorship of the academics, yes you'll have achievements in science, but you'll also lose many many good ideas. |
Nonetheless, there were advances thanks to religious sponsorship that just wouldn't have happened otherwise. Chemistry without alchemy would have taken a lot longer to show up; how is supporting alchemy in the first place as a method to explore the universe a bad thing?
Another question: Corporations tend to explore only options that are good for the corporation. Why is it acceptable for them to focus on goals that are good for them, but the church can't? Does the Catholic Church need to explore abortion methods? How about Microsoft?
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| Most honest doesn't necessarily mean honest at all. You can use religious histories to study a history of that particular religion, but that can be said about any artifact. |
Actually, historians tend to use church records in their researches, as those histories tend to be more accurate than those of more secular sources.
How did artifiact histories even enter the picture?
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| Quote: | | Actually, you prove that wars have been started due to religion. I have yet to see a credible source on that. |
The First Crusade, initiated by Pope Urban II:
"The Popes offered privileges, both spiritual and temporal, to all who took the Cross."
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-049X%281916%2955%3A5%3C348%3ATPATC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-9
(Article published by Dana Munro in Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society Vol 55, No. 5.)
Your turn: |
So, out of the thousands of wars that have happened in human history, you found one that was started by Christianity. Wanna try again?
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| If you're not saying that atheism started these conflicts, then don't say it. Otherwise, you're implying that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao did whatever they did DUE TO their atheistic views on life. |
There was no conflict; those three just went in and killed people due to their religious background.
So, facts and context don't matter so much as the reaction to a situation? You're not exactly building a credible case...
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| Bush claims himself to be Christian. He may have used it to justify war, but he also used it to justify embryonic stem cell research and his marriage/family values. If he's not Christian, then what is he? |
Actually, he used to justify NOT doing embryonic stem cell research. Also, your guess is as good as anyone else's as to his actual belief system...
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Here's what five minutes of research brings:
-Mayo Foundation.
-American Red Cross.
-American Cancer Society.
-Save the Children Federation.
-Big Brothers Big Sisters of America.
-March of Dimes.
-American Diabetes Association.
-Make-A-Wish Foundation of America (and other countries).
I don't specialize in chariable organizations. I could name more with more time, but I have finals to study for. |
Nifty. You have a FEW secular charities and no athiest ones, compared to the thousands of religious ones...How does this prove religion is bad?
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| I'm assuming you're talking about slavery in the United States. How much Quaker blood was shed? Aren't they, for the most part, anti-war? |
Yep. And please ignore the Underground Railroad stops provided by Quakers, the number of protesters provided by the Quakers, and that Quakers helped in the legal area as well. Why did they need to shed blood for their contribution to count?
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| However, the US government doesn't side with one religion or another. It doesn't use religion to dictate laws. Thus, your point is still invalid. |
How? Our laws are based off religious tenets and the logic from which the US sprang is from Christian ideals.
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| As for deism, the idea of a "god" is HARDLY a concept unique to Christianity. Islam and Judaism are also monotheistic in nature. |
Deism is not a deity-based religion. Yeesh....
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| Quote: | | Could you at least have the courtesy to point out when you are are quoting a different source? Yeesh. |
You imply that you've run out of intelligent things to say when you have to resort to flaming another's quoting style. |
Actually, I was implying that I would prefer to get slammed for what I said, not what someone else said...
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| Quote: | | Even those that don't believe in God tend to believe that the place itself has a conscience, and therefore deserves some respect. |
You are implying that those who don't believe in God believe that the universe as a conscience. However, I don't believe in a "god", yet I don't believe that "the place itself has a conscience", nor do I believe that it deserves any more respect (in the awe-inspiring sense) than I would give to anything else. Here's what I believe: our universe is made of matter (and antimatter). More simply, it's made of atoms. Atoms, due to attractive and repulsive forces, come together to form molecules. Molecules form the basis of... everything. (This is, of course, an oversimplified version of what I believe in.) |
Actually, I was trying to point out why people believe in the spirit of a place, not that people who don't believe in God believe in the universe as a conscience. Where did this come from?
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| Quote: | | In other words, most religious people aren't arrogant enough to think that humans are the top of the food chain... |
Nor are most areligious people foolish enough to think that a God that hasn't been proven exists among us and helps us. |
Well, that's religiously bigoted...
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Actually, I was disproving a previous quote using their analogy.
| Quote: | | There is one Lord over all. Whether you want to call it God or the Universe. There is a maximum point of power, it can only be something Universal, out of this world, out of our minds! |
The universe is something we live in; it's a place, it's not our landlord.
However, we don't believe that your analogy regarding the atheistic equivalent of a landlord, physical laws, has a conscience either. |
That's fine; it's just not relevant to the discussion at hand...
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from Merriam Webster, http://www.m-w.com/ :
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Rational: 1b: relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason : reasonable <a rational explanation> <rational behavior> |
In this case, I was aiming for "based on reason". So no, I'm not pointing out at the universe has some form of intelligence. |
Actually, you're trying to point out that the universe is understandable. "Based on reason" implies Intelligent Design...
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If you truly respected atheism, you wouldn't force your religious beliefs on others. You may deny it all you want, but that's what you're doing in these posts. Persuasion and debate are both very effective ways to affect others' opinions. It's not MY opinion you're trying to change, it's others who read this thread. |
No; I'm responding to the idea that religion=bad.
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Creationism is not taught in schools, evolution is. [Though some schools have option Intelligent Design, it's not forced like evolution is] |
In the US public school system, which is secular in nature, that is true. In other types of schools (catholic schools, schools not in the country), no. |
So evolution isn't taught in schools? Weird...
[And you're pretty much allowed to teach whatever you want in private schools...]
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| Quote: | | *Science seems to be blossoming, even under the check of religion. |
Science isn't as much under the check of religion as it was back then. Maybe that's why it's blossoming. |
So how many human clones have you seen?
HM First, religion does not hinder thinking. It opens your mind more than you can imagine. Einstein once said: the more I research, the more I come closer to God....Here you go,,the best brain of all times, uses God as his motivation for deeper thinking..And he is not the only human that gets best research results by using God as a motivation...The best research foundations have christian funding. People that follow God, learn to be human, and spent a lot of money trying to find cures for other humans well beings...etc,,etc,,etc...Cheerss
| hilander wrote: |
| First, religion does not hinder thinking. It opens your mind more than you can imagine. Einstein once said: the more I research, the more I come closer to God.... |
(And that would be a bad example. ^_^; Einstein refused to accept quantum mechanics because it went against the way he imagined the world should work by virtue of his faith. Had it not been for his faith, he might not have been married to backward thinking and might have been more productive in his later years.)The entire argument is ridiculous. religion may be a motive for war, but so can anything be. religion is just like anything else. wealth, power, happiness, love. Any of these things can be the basis for good or evil, it's all about whose hands you find them in. It's easy to go and get some numbers and say "religion causes this", but it's also easy to say thatpeople having blonde hair causes just as many bad things to happen, and it's not because either of them are really antagonistic, it's just because there are so many people in the world that belong to the particular group, there are going to be those who do things others would frown upon. It has nothing to do with being blonde or being a member of a religion, it's just human nature.
(side note: the Mayo Clinic was founded by Dr W. W. Mayo and a group of Catholic Nuns, Big Sisters was originally called "Catholic Big Sisters of New York)
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So evolution isn't taught in schools? Weird...
[And you're pretty much allowed to teach whatever you want in private schools...] |
that isn't even remotely true. private schools are required BY LAW to follow the same basic curriculum the rest of the schools in the state. HOW they teach it is up to them, but the students must pass the basic accross the board exams or the school can be shut down/ Clarification, then, on my private schools comment: A number of private schools teach their own agendas in addition to the board-certified classes (Catholic schools have a mandatory religious class and some schools stress a politically-correct agenda).
As for religion starting wars, greed, power, and too much population are seemingly overlooked, as are needing resources (Japan vs. the US in WWII). Religion may be used to inspire the troops, but it's rarely the cause...
HM
It's amazing how many try to lump all Christians into one group that all believe the same thing. Also, I will admit that some Christians lump all non-believers (in Christianity) all together.
Because of my beliefs, I find I have more patience, more tolerance of people who don't believe the same as I do. I'm more willing to admit that I don't hold the cards when it comes to what to what is truth. As someone else stated, the Bible is a guidebook on how we are to live our lifes. Because of that, it's prone to various interpretations. Does that make the way I understand it incorrect? No. Nor does it make the way someone else understands it wrong.
Anyway, I digress. I have read your comments on how you feel all religioins are and when someone tries to express their belief that you have the right to believe as you do, you slam them.
What I find more aggrevating than anything else, are the people who believe "I'm right and anyone who doesn't believe as I do is wrong!" Which seems to be exactly what you are fussing about.
I have no problem with the way you believe. It is your choice to think as you do. All I ask is that you open your mind that other people will not think as you do and it doesn't make us wrong. Just different.
If I stepped on anyone's toes, sorry. But I should be able to express my opinion the same as you can.
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| So how many human clones have you seen? |
All identical twins are clones of each other.
