I am not trying to start a religious topic here. This is purely scientific and anyone who wishes to bring religion into this, please don't.
According to some teachings in Islam, the Sun will rise from the West before the end of the world. It is one of the biggest signs foretold in it's scriptures.
My question is, what can possibly be the scientific phenomenon that would lead to it? My first guess is that a huge meteor will barely miss the earth, but it's gravitational pull will have so much pull on the earth that it will reverse the earth's rotation and the Sun will seem to rise from the West. (kind of like in the old Superman movie)
Is this possible? Or what else is possible?
It's hard for me to imagine the rotation of the Earth changing without a huge cataclysm, so I don't think we'd live to see the sun rise in the West. A nuclear bomb, maybe...
The magnetic field of the earth will reverse, so the north in a compass will point to what now is the south. In this way the north will be the south and the south will be north. As simple as that.
Isn't our rotation speeding up, anyway?
Near one of the poles in spring the Sun rises from the west, since the earth's motion round the sun is then more significant than its rotation.
Let T be the angle of tilt of the earth's axis (about 0.4 radians), and let R be its radius (about 6.4^6 m). Suppose for the moment that the earth isn't rotating on its axis, and consider a small region around one of the poles. As the earth moves round the sun then in spring the night-day terminator will move across this region with speed 2 pi R sin T / year, and if we stand in the appropriate part of the region we will call the direction in which the sun appears to be rising west.
Now suppose the earth is rotating on its axis. Then we will be carried from west to east, ie in the same direction as the terminator. However, suppose we are so close to the pole that we are moving slower than the terminator - then the terminator will pass us in the same direction as before, and we will still see the sun rise (slowly) in the west. If our latitude is pi/2 - L then our speed due to the rotation is 2 pi R sin L / day. Thus - assuming that L is small relative to T so that the terminator's speed is constant throughout the region - we must have
2 pi R sin L / day < 2 pi R sin T / year, ie sin L < sin T day/year.
Our distance from the pole is RL. With the above values of T and R we can therefore be up to 6.9 km from the pole.
http://www.thomasbending.co.uk/puzzles/geometry/sunrise.htm | Quote: |
| Isn't our rotation speeding up, anyway? |
What? Are you saying that the earth is spining faster and faster each day? Could you be more clear on that? | ptolomeo wrote: |
| Quote: | | Isn't our rotation speeding up, anyway? |
What? Are you saying that the earth is spining faster and faster each day? Could you be more clear on that? |
The planet's orientation in space-time is covered here :: http://hpiers.obspm.fr/eop-pc/earthor/EOP.html
Interesting hypothesis. It's hard to keep religion out of this, but I'll try to by not asking more details about the prediction, nor mentioning other cataclysmic events predicted by other groups.
The Earth's rotation is definitely not speeding up, in fact it is slowing down slightly. The rate of slowing is on the order of half a second per year per century. That's based on the rate at which leap seconds are currently added to the clock. The rate is very erratic, and we've recently gone several years without a correction. However, there is little chance that the rotation rate will ever increase for a period of more than a few years.
The magnetic field will indeed eventually reverse, possibly within a few centuries. Although this would not cause a sudden cataclysm, the period when the magnetic field is near zero would expose us to a lot more radiation from space, and some think it might destroy nearly all life on the
Earth.
As for actual changes to reverse rotation, it is difficult to imagine how that could happen without completely destroying all life. If an asteroid caused the shift, it would probably start by causing a wobble, which would lead to flipping somehow. It is hard to imagine a process which could leave the Earth rotating in a similar but opposite direction. Perhaps if there were a series of smaller encounters lined up just right, the poles could be moved in stages with a slightly less devastating result.
One physical reason for the rotation of the eath to reverse would be that its total angular momentum already points to the south. Imagine that the superdense inner core of the earth spin in opposite direction than the surface of the earth. That could be possible because we have liquid layers of molten roks inside. In this way when the earth cools down and the interior of the earth solidifies, the conservation of the total angular momentun (a basic physics law) would imply that, if the opposite angular momentum of the core is greater than the external angular momentum of the external layers, when everything solidifies the sense of rotation should reverse. Thats all. Bye
One thing I know if that really can happen. There will be very big earth quake, big flooding, and much more. Changing the way how the earth spinning will cause a serious problem to every living things on this planet.
There will be the time that we don't have any food. Also the air will be very polluted.
We are not ready for this change, if it could really happen. And if it will happen then it surely be the end of the world. So hope it will never happen.
I liked BikerMan's Theory. But that's just for the Pole right. What about a more global change...
I don't think simply reversal of the poles can lead to the change we are talking about. I mean, would the reversal of poles necessarily lead to reversal of the direction of earth's rotation?
But I agree, such a change would be really cataclysmic.
| jipmerite wrote: |
I liked BikerMan's Theory. But that's just for the Pole right. What about a more global change...
I don't think simply reversal of the poles can lead to the change we are talking about. I mean, would the reversal of poles necessarily lead to reversal of the direction of earth's rotation?
But I agree, such a change would be really cataclysmic. |
I cannot lay claim to the theory I presented (I thought my link acknowledged that, but I should be clear in case it didn't) - it comes from a maths puzzle website. I just thought it was interesting and the math looks right to me.
In answer to the last bit no, reversal of the poles would have little or no effect on angle, speed or direction of spin (certainly no effect on the latter). The magnetic poles have shifted many times over history and the only real evidence that these left is geological (orientation of metallic particles in rock formed during the event in question). There is no correlation with significant upheaval or catastrophe in the fossil record that I know of - something which would certainly result after any significant change in speed of rotation, let alone change in direction. I cannot imagine how any such change in rotation would be driven or caused (barring, perhaps, impact with a body sufficiently massive - a planetoid sized mass) and I am certain that any such change in spin direction would have massive (if not completely fatal) implications for all life on the planet, certainly for all 'higher' lifeforms such as mammals.Dearest readers,
In fact Al-Quran had explained very clearly in chapter Al-Hijr 15:73-76 about ‘how the sun rises from the west.’
Al-Quran said (the meaning) “So As-Saîhah (torment - awful cry) overtook them at the time of sunrise; (73) And We turned (the earth) upside down and rained down on them stones of baked clay. (74) Surely! In this are signs, for those who see (or understand or learn the lessons from the Signs of Allâh). (75) And verily! They (the earth and other planets) were right on the highroad (back to normal path/condition) (76)
It’s quite a straightforward explanation. Quran said that during the sunrise the earth is turned upside down, therefore we got the phenomenum of the sun rises from the west! the earth is rotating at the same direction, at the same speed, and orbiting the sun as normal, nothing changed except now the north pole is becoming south pole and the south pole is now the north pole, therefore we will see the sun is rising from the west!
Please ponder.
May Allah bless all of us.
| khalidyong wrote: |
| It’s quite a straightforward explanation. Quran said that during the sunrise the earth is turned upside down, therefore we got the phenomenum of the sun rises from the west! the earth is rotating at the same direction, at the same speed, and orbiting the sun as normal, nothing changed except now the north pole is becoming south pole and the south pole is now the north pole, therefore we will see the sun is rising from the west! |
I've pondered - it is nonsense of the highest order.
Exactly how do you propose to flip the earth around its axis? It is laughable.Another thing to think about: if the poles would just switch, would we actually stop calling the North the North? Would we call the Arabian peninsula the Middle West? I don't think we would.
The North pole is the magnetic South pole of the Earth anyway. The North pole of magnets was defined as the side of the magnet pointing to the North. But the North pole of magnets always points to another magnet's South pole. So it's called North pole for historical reasons only. If the magnetic North pole would suddenly be in the North, it would be more correct, and we could keep calling the West the West.
I believe the Quran that anything causing the Sun to rise from the West means the end of the world.
| Stubru Freak wrote: |
Another thing to think about: if the poles would just switch, would we actually stop calling the North the North? Would we call the Arabian peninsula the Middle West? I don't think we would.
The North pole is the magnetic South pole of the Earth anyway. The North pole of magnets was defined as the side of the magnet pointing to the North. But the North pole of magnets always points to another magnet's South pole. So it's called North pole for historical reasons only. If the magnetic North pole would suddenly be in the North, it would be more correct, and we could keep calling the West the West.
I believe the Quran that anything causing the Sun to rise from the West means the end of the world. |
Perhaps this will not be a sudden switch, but gradually by degrees? Think in another thread elsewhere there was a discussion about the gradual switching of the poles. Probably will take a few centuries perhaps? By that time we will not be around anymore. 
the only way you'd get the inner core to rotate the outer core of the earth is , as said above , the molten mantle solidifies. But that's way too impossible as Earth is a huge nuke reactor with a reactor wall kilometers thick that doesn't leak much heat (otherwise we'll be roasted humans).
however, if you disrupt the flow of iron around the earth with multiple nuclear warheads, there's a possibility that you will get Earth to rotate a little randomly for a few seconds/weeks/years/millennia. But then the ground will shake so much that everyone dies. ^^
Bikerman,
You kind of answered your question about how the earth could flip on it's poles in your previous post. A large celestial body, comet or asteroid of sufficent size could cause such an effect. But of course the Koran does not mention it.
As far as the earth solidifying it's core or mantle I can't see it. For years physicists were unable to determine how the earth could remain molten inside over billions of years, they were unable to determine where the energy came from to keep it in that state. Back in the 80's when they figured out that the Aurora was the grounding out of trillions of watts of electricity per second at the poles of the earth due to the ionization of the solar particles/wind with the earth's magnetic field, they were then able to solve the equation as they had a source for the energy needed to keep it molten. So if you consider this into the equation, you might conclude that the only way for the mantle or core to solidify would be that the sun dies out........hummm? I'm thinking that might not be a real consideration in our lifetime.
As far as a pole reversal goes, there exists an ash layer that occurs globally throughout the geologic column, it is present about every 12 to 25,000 years. Since geologists are at a loss to explain it, a number of theories have come up in an attempt to explain these ash layers. Global catasrophies are one of them. Which gives to theories to plate techtonics and the driving mechanism behind the shifting contenents. First is the slow moving theory, that everything gradually moves over billliions of years, driven by small catastrphies localized to active areas. The second theroy is the catastrophic view, in which things move slowly, and then a huge global catastrophy occurs, causing pole shifts, or reversals, causing massive upheval and movement of the contenents, and then things restrun to the slow moving stage. Which is correct I cannot say, I'm only presenting the two theories. Also there is evidence that some of the magentism shifts recorded in the geologic record are due to physical shifts of the poles while others are due to the magnetic shifts of the poles.
You see the problem with Geology, and geophysics is that samples of earth and rocks, ice, etc. can only be looked at locally and represent less than 1% observation points, for the area of the earth, extrapolation is used extensively, and sometimes it is limited or misleading in it's conclusions.
I still pretty much lean to the idea that the end of the world will be a huge celestial body entering the solar system and causing havoc and planetary destruction. However, I'm not worried about that happening in my lifetime. Possible, but not probable.
And yes a physical pole reversal would spell the end of the world as we know it. The sun rising in the west, well I guess that depends on which pole is north, and the direction of the rotation after a cataclysm of that nature. I guess if your ass is still alive you would live to see it, but it would reduce the survivors to a very primitve existence. But look at the bright side, if you survivied you wouldn't have to worry about gong to work the next day | BigGeek wrote: |
Bikerman,
You kind of answered your question about how the earth could flip on it's poles in your previous post. A large celestial body, comet or asteroid of sufficent size could cause such an effect. But of course the Koran does not mention it. |
It would also melt the crust & change the orbit. The chances of an exact 'flip' are minuscule and the length of the day would be significantly altered.
Apart from that it makes perfect sense
| Quote: |
| As far as a pole reversal goes, there exists an ash layer that occurs globally throughout the geologic column, it is present about every 12 to 25,000 years. Since geologists are at a loss to explain it, a number of theories have come up in an attempt to explain these ash layers. Global catasrophies are one of them. Which gives to theories to plate techtonics and the driving mechanism behind the shifting contenents. First is the slow moving theory, that everything gradually moves over billliions of years, driven by small catastrphies localized to active areas. The second theroy is the catastrophic view, in which things move slowly, and then a huge global catastrophy occurs, causing pole shifts, or reversals, causing massive upheval and movement of the contenents, and then things restrun to the slow moving stage. Which is correct I cannot say, I'm only presenting the two theories. Also there is evidence that some of the magentism shifts recorded in the geologic record are due to physical shifts of the poles while others are due to the magnetic shifts of the poles. |
There is also the much simpler and much more likely hypothesis that the ash layers are the result of large volcanic eruptions. I have seen no evidence for a physical shift of the poles..have you got a source for this? I think it is unlikely, to the point of almost impossible. There is no evidence in the fossil record to tie pole reversals to extinction events, for example. | Bikerman wrote: |
| BigGeek wrote: | Bikerman,
You kind of answered your question about how the earth could flip on it's poles in your previous post. A large celestial body, comet or asteroid of sufficent size could cause such an effect. But of course the Koran does not mention it. |
It would also melt the crust & change the orbit. The chances of an exact 'flip' are minuscule and the length of the day would be significantly altered.
Apart from that it makes perfect sense
| Quote: | | As far as a pole reversal goes, there exists an ash layer that occurs globally throughout the geologic column, it is present about every 12 to 25,000 years. Since geologists are at a loss to explain it, a number of theories have come up in an attempt to explain these ash layers. Global catasrophies are one of them. Which gives to theories to plate techtonics and the driving mechanism behind the shifting contenents. First is the slow moving theory, that everything gradually moves over billliions of years, driven by small catastrphies localized to active areas. The second theroy is the catastrophic view, in which things move slowly, and then a huge global catastrophy occurs, causing pole shifts, or reversals, causing massive upheval and movement of the contenents, and then things restrun to the slow moving stage. Which is correct I cannot say, I'm only presenting the two theories. Also there is evidence that some of the magentism shifts recorded in the geologic record are due to physical shifts of the poles while others are due to the magnetic shifts of the poles. |
There is also the much simpler and much more likely hypothesis that the ash layers are the result of large volcanic eruptions. I have seen no evidence for a physical shift of the poles..have you got a source for this? I think it is unlikely, to the point of almost impossible. There is no evidence in the fossil record to tie pole reversals to extinction events, for example. |
You are correct about the probability of an exact flip being pretty low, but if it was not an exact flip it would be termed a pole shift, if I recall correctly. A pole reversal is an exact flip, a pole shift is a change to any other position if I recall it right!
No unfortunately I'm writing off the top of my head and it has been years ago since I read articles on the subject. If I'm able to pull this out of my ass here, I believe the evedince sited for pole reversal was arguments for the FUBAR nature of the pre-cambrian portion of the column. But there were a lot of others that argued against this theory stating exactly as you did, that there were no extinctions identifiable in that portion of the column, or for the other events younger than precambrian. As far as the ash layer goes, the arguments for it not being a global catasrophy went something like it was due to volcaninc activity, and was explainable, which I never really got that argument as well since they never were able to explain what would cause a global volcanic phenomenon. Supporters of the catastrophic view argued that the vulcanism would have been local and that it was a global phenomenon in the column. Which again I've never understood their claims in that area, because like I pointed out else where, problem with drilling samples in the ground to look at the geologic column is that they are only able to observe less than 1% of the area. I understand that they look at the same ash layer in different parts of the world in observable places, and drilling samples and conclude that certain events are global while others are local, but again only in a few areas (if I recall) were they able to point to extinctions due to the ash layer, other areas there was no such correlation. So what's the answer? I couldn't say, like I said I'm only presenting the two theories, I never claimed that I have any idea which one is right!Hmm...I'm very sceptical. As far as I know there are a few 'universal' ash layers, but certainly not anything like every few tens of thousands of years.
The big ones would be the Precambrian (650 million years ago) and the KT (55 million years ago). We are pretty sure that the KT ash layer is from the asteroid that hit the gulf of Mexico (Chicxulub).
There is also a strong hypothesis that a similar strike occurred and caused the Precambrian extinction.
Aside from that, there are several ash layers associated with the eruption of supervolcanos dotted throughout the column.
| Bikerman wrote: |
Hmm...I'm very sceptical. As far as I know there are a few 'universal' ash layers, but certainly not anything like every few tens of thousands of years.
The big ones would be the Precambrian (650 million years ago) and the KT (55 million years ago). We are pretty sure that the KT ash layer is from the asteroid that hit the gulf of Mexico (Chicxulub).
There is also a strong hypothesis that a similar strike occurred and caused the Precambrian extinction.
Aside from that, there are several ash layers associated with the eruption of supervolcanos dotted throughout the column. |
I must admit that my recollection could be flawed, I was reading about this back around 1985 shortly after I graduated from college, so my aging brain could be flawed in it's memory about the frequency of the global ash layers. I thought that the catasrophists were pointing to it's frequency as every 12 to 25K years, but like I said I could be mistaken in this.
One thing I can tell you is that I had read numerous articles arguing one view to the other, no one seeming to come to any sort of agreement on it, and not too long ago I was reading a recent article on livescience.com I think it was, where they were arguing the two points of view. All I could think of when I read the article was, holy crap this argument has been going on for 25 years now, give it a rest. 
| Bikerman wrote: |
Hmm...I'm very sceptical. As far as I know there are a few 'universal' ash layers, but certainly not anything like every few tens of thousands of years.
|
... And just because vulcanism is local, doesn't mean the ash from it will stay local. Look at the ash spread from Mt. St. Helens, and think how far the ash might spread from a supervolcano, like the one I hear is under Yellowstone...
A single extremely huge eruption could possibly create an ash layer all over the world.Ocalhoun, those are very good points about eruptions covering much larger areas than the volcano itself.
Bikerman I've been pretty busy as of late here, but if I get a chance I'll see if I can dig up the book from 25 years ago, probably a bit dated, and give reference to what I'm babling about here, or if necessary correct my eroneous memory. I'll keep you posted on what I come up with.
As of late, I had to have custom parking brake cables made for the rear of my truck to work with the disc brake calipers, and I got fooled by the incorrect intermediate cable on the truck, so now I have to send the cables back and have them resized......URRRGGGHHH!! It's been a difficult conversion to say the least.
Oh and today being the 31st it's my 50th birthday........see I told you I was old, and now it's official You are not old - merely mature (and I speak as a 47 yr old mature youth)
