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Fall of Rome





trousersalive
One of the current theories for the rapid demise of the Roman Empire is that invasion of the 'Germanic Hordes' resulted in a disruption of production and supply (rather than a wiping out of culture). Due to the specialization and centralization of industry (ie common products were made at centralized locations and the skills in the general population for production were becoming lost) basic products were unable to reach the population and skills such as pottery and masonry were lost to the average Joe (or Romulus as it were). This led to a mass reduction in the quality of life and eventual descendence into the dark ages.

This specialization is exactly what we are seeing in western society today. Who knows how to forge metal or where to get clay to make a dish these days. or how to grow food without pesticides or fertilizer for that matter. Not many people i bet.

Whats peoples thoughts on a second dark ages coming due to some similar disruption of modern society such as nuclear war, asteroid impact, or more likely, aerosol spread lethal virus or other disease?
medievalman26
I believe it was partly due to the fact that Rome was too centralized so when the city fell the Empire rebelled against the Romans. Also the so called "barbarians" actually had a technology that surpassed the Romans it is called the Francisca which is an axe. It was deadly in hand to and combat and also as a ranged weapon when thrown.

Sorry for my careless misspellings.
brucedes
Depends on what you mean by "fall". Since fall would imply the whole civilisation in the ex-imperial countries, which didn't happen. The imperial governors were replaced by kings and queens and such, and the normal people didn't see much difference.

Plus the eastern empire didn't "fall" until the 15th century.
trousersalive
admittedly the eastern empire did hang on alright for a long time (although the standard of living did slowly deteriorate there also), but the western empire pretty much collapsed as early as the 5th century - particularly in britain. Under roman rule the common man had a pretty sweet deal for the times, but once the imperial infrastructure disappeared it was pretty much every man for himself, no matter who was 'in charge'.
{name here}
brucedes wrote:
Depends on what you mean by "fall". Since fall would imply the whole civilisation in the ex-imperial countries, which didn't happen. The imperial governors were replaced by kings and queens and such, and the normal people didn't see much difference.

Plus the eastern empire didn't "fall" until the 15th century.

Once it fell, England returned to barters and barbarians.
budiman
Roman will fall sooner or later. Everything is immortal. Only immortal is immortal.
trousersalive
budiman wrote:
Roman will fall sooner or later. Everything is immortal. Only immortal is immortal.


If everything is immortal and roman is part of everything then logically roman is immortal. surely...
{name here}
budiman wrote:
Roman will fall sooner or later. Everything is immortal. Only immortal is immortal.

I've got a better quote for this context:
Quote:

Empires crumble. There are no exceptions.
CCovers
There was definitely a fall of Rome. That can be concluded... Why was there a fall of Rome and what paralells can be found in today's United States "Empire" These are questions that are being begged to be answered.

Unfortunately History has a way of repeating itself. We all have heared the phrase " The apple doesn't fall far from the tree". This phrase intends to describe the relationship between parent and offspring. Rome was the father of democracy and it is the United States that has carried, evolved and broadened that legacy.

Now what can the USA learn from history...? Most importantly, the mlitary, the professional millitary just like Romes, is overstreached. Within the last few decades the US military has set up shop in most of the world and this has streached the arm of our influence for too wide. I hope that in the future we will be able to look at our priorities and be able to put more effort into solving one or two issues of the world at a time instead of 10 half asked issues. This way we will achive more success and avoid being overstreached

joe
LordHateSphere
The West part of Rome fell, because at the end of its reign, it was lead by children... the last west roman emperror was only 13 years old

5th century West part of Rome was very weakened, and they didn't have enough soldiers to protect their borders, so yeah they were overrun...
Coclus
Yeah i think there is more than one set of reasons for the grewat german empire, as you guys already showed...
danjoy
Had a lot to do with the in-fighting of its leaders. The Roman generals thought it more imporant to try and be Emperor and use up manpower and resources than defend its frontiers.
gducnguyen
trousersalive wrote:
One of the current theories for the rapid demise of the Roman Empire is that invasion of the 'Germanic Hordes' resulted in a disruption of production and supply (rather than a wiping out of culture). Due to the specialization and centralization of industry (ie common products were made at centralized locations and the skills in the general population for production were becoming lost) basic products were unable to reach the population and skills such as pottery and masonry were lost to the average Joe (or Romulus as it were). This led to a mass reduction in the quality of life and eventual descendence into the dark ages.

This specialization is exactly what we are seeing in western society today. Who knows how to forge metal or where to get clay to make a dish these days. or how to grow food without pesticides or fertilizer for that matter. Not many people i bet.

Whats peoples thoughts on a second dark ages coming due to some similar disruption of modern society such as nuclear war, asteroid impact, or more likely, aerosol spread lethal virus or other disease?

I don't think so Twisted Evil
{name here}
gducnguyen wrote:
trousersalive wrote:
One of the current theories for the rapid demise of the Roman Empire is that invasion of the 'Germanic Hordes' resulted in a disruption of production and supply (rather than a wiping out of culture). Due to the specialization and centralization of industry (ie common products were made at centralized locations and the skills in the general population for production were becoming lost) basic products were unable to reach the population and skills such as pottery and masonry were lost to the average Joe (or Romulus as it were). This led to a mass reduction in the quality of life and eventual descendence into the dark ages.

This specialization is exactly what we are seeing in western society today. Who knows how to forge metal or where to get clay to make a dish these days. or how to grow food without pesticides or fertilizer for that matter. Not many people i bet.

Whats peoples thoughts on a second dark ages coming due to some similar disruption of modern society such as nuclear war, asteroid impact, or more likely, aerosol spread lethal virus or other disease?

I don't think so Twisted Evil

Goths(the real ones that were viking-like and not the subculture that dress in black) did in fact invade Rome, and collapse the empire.
xanarulz
Rome fell do to internal problems, and a weak government to control the people. Espicially since there was a power vacum (everyone fighting for power), and a series of weak rulers which gave way to outside forces the capability to conquer over Rome.
frozenhead
In my point of view, the Empire fell because of too much politics under it. A lesson that we should learn.
gangsterr
inflation, civil war, split of empires, was the main reasons it fell.
smarter
Edward Gibbon in his famous study The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (1776) was the first to use the term FALL.

For contemporaries in 476 there was no fall, there was instead a slow decline in the rural areas and a more steep decline in some cities. This decline took more than a couple of centuries in the west and a millennium in the east. The official fall of the Roman Empire was in 1453 May 29 when the Ottoman Turks conquered the Constantinople and the last Roman Emperor died in battle.

The decline was caused by many factors such as civil wars, loss of civic virtues, bureaucracy, Christianity, weak emperors, continuous barbarian invasions, global weather (poor crops), etc.

Some of the factors seem dubious to me and how much each factor contributed depends on the historian.

Quote:
Wikipedia:
According to Gibbon, the Roman Empire succumbed to barbarian invasions because of a loss of civic virtue among its citizens. They had become lazy and soft, outsourcing their duties to defend their Empire to barbarian mercenaries, who then became so numerous and ingrained that they were able to take over the Empire. Romans, he believed, had become effeminate, unwilling to live a tougher, "manly" military lifestyle.
rshanthakumar
CCovers wrote:
There was definitely a fall of Rome. That can be concluded... Why was there a fall of Rome and what paralells can be found in today's United States "Empire" These are questions that are being begged to be answered.

Unfortunately History has a way of repeating itself. We all have heared the phrase " The apple doesn't fall far from the tree". This phrase intends to describe the relationship between parent and offspring. Rome was the father of democracy and it is the United States that has carried, evolved and broadened that legacy.

Now what can the USA learn from history...? Most importantly, the mlitary, the professional millitary just like Romes, is overstreached. Within the last few decades the US military has set up shop in most of the world and this has streached the arm of our influence for too wide. I hope that in the future we will be able to look at our priorities and be able to put more effort into solving one or two issues of the world at a time instead of 10 half asked issues. This way we will achive more success and avoid being overstreached

joe

Rome, we think, was the father of democracy. Similarly, we think US is carrying the democracy torch.
Moonspider
rshanthakumar wrote:
CCovers wrote:
There was definitely a fall of Rome. That can be concluded... Why was there a fall of Rome and what paralells can be found in today's United States "Empire" These are questions that are being begged to be answered.

Unfortunately History has a way of repeating itself. We all have heared the phrase " The apple doesn't fall far from the tree". This phrase intends to describe the relationship between parent and offspring. Rome was the father of democracy and it is the United States that has carried, evolved and broadened that legacy.

Now what can the USA learn from history...? Most importantly, the mlitary, the professional millitary just like Romes, is overstreached. Within the last few decades the US military has set up shop in most of the world and this has streached the arm of our influence for too wide. I hope that in the future we will be able to look at our priorities and be able to put more effort into solving one or two issues of the world at a time instead of 10 half asked issues. This way we will achive more success and avoid being overstreached

joe

Rome, we think, was the father of democracy. Similarly, we think US is carrying the democracy torch.


Actually, the ideas of democracy date back to ancient Greece.

Respectfully,
M
palavra
Quote:
This decline took more than a couple of centuries in the west and a millennium in the east. The official fall of the Roman Empire was in 1453 May 29 when the Ottoman Turks conquered the Constantinople and the last Roman Emperor died in battle.

west romans also was destroyed by Turks
don't forget Atilla the Hun
Quote:

The decline was caused by many factors such as civil wars, loss of civic virtues, bureaucracy, Christianity, weak emperors, continuous barbarian invasions, global weather (poor crops), etc.

this is generallyl like this
a big power firstly loses its own stability then someone comes to destroy it.

Quote:

Rome, we think, was the father of democracy. Similarly, we think US is carrying the democracy torch.

"waiting for the barbarians " is the best option at this time.
Tiger
smarter wrote:
The decline was caused by many factors such as civil wars, loss of civic virtues, bureaucracy, Christianity, weak emperors, continuous barbarian invasions, global weather (poor crops), etc.

Some of the factors seem dubious to me and how much each factor contributed depends on the historian.

Quote:
Wikipedia:
According to Gibbon, the Roman Empire succumbed to barbarian invasions because of a loss of civic virtue among its citizens. They had become lazy and soft, outsourcing their duties to defend their Empire to barbarian mercenaries, who then became so numerous and ingrained that they were able to take over the Empire. Romans, he believed, had become effeminate, unwilling to live a tougher, "manly" military lifestyle.


Agreed. I once read somewhere that some of the amphora they stored wine in were lined with lead, and that this had a negative effect on the mental abilities of those who drank such wine.

There is no doubt that the Romans of the 5th century were much softer and weaker than their counterparts of a few hundred years before. Christianity changed their outlook on life, slaves made life easy, and lust and a strong desire for physical pleasures made the youth reject the notion of serving in the military. All of these factors and many more, taken together, had a negative impact on Roman society and cause a general decline, making it easier for Rome to fall. The Western Roman Empire fell when the great city lost its power, but overall it only fell when the Eastern Empire fell in 1453.

While the Eastern Empire became known as the Byzantine Empire to distinguish it from the West (they also reverted to Greek), they were still the direct descendants of the Roman Empire and the city of Rome thanks to Constantine, and so, rightly, the Roman Empire in the East.

Certainly one of th greatest empires the world has ever seen and taking both East and West together, almost one thousand years of history.

Today the West, including Europe and America are in a similar phase of decline. Pop culture, fast food, audio visual entertainment, recreational drugs, liberal sex and lax morals, failing family values and a lack of loyalty to nation and country are all contributing to the fall of the Western World which is currently gaining momentum.
polis
The Roman Empire could be ended by 476 A.D, because the eastern Roman Empire stopped being roman long before, and by the year 330, it was renamed as the Bizantine Empire, becoming more greek and more christian.
Wenlow
I think the problem with the 'Why did Rome fall?' question is that it is too Euro-centric. If you take a wider view the real question is: 'Why didn't Rome revive?'

When you look at other areas of the earth - especialy China but also India, Persia/Iran what you see are Empires rising and falling, but then after a time they, or at least similar ones over similar areas, rise again. But this did not happen with Rome. Why?

The Roman Empire went through periods of decline, was invaded and needed to incorporate outsiders, etc. None of that is remarkable nor was it even unknown in Roman history before the collapse of the West. The East Roman Empire itself revived and prospered for centuries after coming close to collapse and can be said to have been replaced by the Ottoman Turks.

But in Western Europe no empire has replaced it. The Napoleonic and Nazi rules both being too short lived to count. Is the EU the new Rome?
socialoutcast
I think the fall of the Roman Empire is quite interesting. There were a number of different factors that gave tribute the event. A lot of this are mentioned above. I would like to add to the list that for that time, the Roman Empire grew to such a large area of land that it became difficult to manage for that time. This is why the Empire Hadrian decided to consolidate the Empire with a wall and to aid in some defense of Roman land. But the largest factor was a poor succession of rulers.
frozenhead
Well, based on my opinion, Rome fell of too much politics that was happening inside the empire. A far as I read, its one the most biggest empire establish much like of Napoleon had conquered. Basically, a large system (like of the Roman Empire) can be easily be corrupted by too much power, i think that was one factor why it fell, but again it's just an opinion.
rshanthakumar
Rome was not the largest empire in the world. It was large yes. But not as large as what the Chinese was or even a number of west asian or mongolian empires were like. Since it was Europe centric, in history we read as if it is the largest. That is the case with the civilisation in Greece too. Since English, the French and the rest of Europe had only these two civilisations to talk off, they were groomed to be the largest and the best.

The rise and fall of Rome was a natural happening more in line with the social evolution.
indianinworld
Historians wrote... But there has been many questions about this. There has been no clear proof for the history on what and when occured. Many of the things were assumed and there are factual errors in the History.

Keep Smiling
Paulo_baga
Whats peoples thoughts on a second dark ages coming due to some similar disruption of modern society such as nuclear war, asteroid impact, or more likely, aerosol spread lethal virus or other disease?


hauhauhauha
rshanthakumar
Talking of the real reason for the fall of Rome, however big it was.

In the days of the earlier Roman rulers, the king was close to the people. There was a senate that brought up representations to the governing body. But slowly and steadily this good practice was corrupted. 'one good custom would corrupt the world'.

With a large rise in the complexity of life as it is in today's world, it is true that every person will have his own role to play. Whereas if the government were to move away from the people then that is the end of it. The country was doomed mainly because of this reason. Enemies always exist for any state. When the people are motivated and working hard, they would produce the needed energy to fight them off. Only when they are not motivated enough the country will succumb to the aggressors.
websurfer80
nice........................
medievalman26
{name here} wrote:
gducnguyen wrote:
trousersalive wrote:
One of the current theories for the rapid demise of the Roman Empire is that invasion of the 'Germanic Hordes' resulted in a disruption of production and supply (rather than a wiping out of culture). Due to the specialization and centralization of industry (ie common products were made at centralized locations and the skills in the general population for production were becoming lost) basic products were unable to reach the population and skills such as pottery and masonry were lost to the average Joe (or Romulus as it were). This led to a mass reduction in the quality of life and eventual descendence into the dark ages.

This specialization is exactly what we are seeing in western society today. Who knows how to forge metal or where to get clay to make a dish these days. or how to grow food without pesticides or fertilizer for that matter. Not many people i bet.

Whats peoples thoughts on a second dark ages coming due to some similar disruption of modern society such as nuclear war, asteroid impact, or more likely, aerosol spread lethal virus or other disease?

I don't think so Twisted Evil

Goths(the real ones that were viking-like and not the subculture that dress in black) did in fact invade Rome, and collapse the empire.
Yep, and when rome fell that was the start of the "Dark Ages"

xanarulz wrote:
Rome fell do to internal problems, and a weak government to control the people. Espicially since there was a power vacum (everyone fighting for power), and a series of weak rulers which gave way to outside forces the capability to conquer over Rome.
pretty much I mean there are several factors that led to the eventual collapse of the Roman Empire. I think the most significant thing to rember is that the majority of all written work was lost. They are still piecing together the whole story. Basically it was a series of events that led to the collapse. The first major one that I look at is the invasion of the Huns. The second thing I look at is the weak leadership after the invasion. The invasion of the Huns shook Rome to the core. Add to that the poor leadership of the Emperors and the lack of support to the outlying areas of the empire. The last thing I look at is the "barbarians" as {name here} stated the Goths. I also believe that they are better known as the Germanic tribes. That was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak. As I have previously said, the Roman Empire was too centralized so when the Huns and eventually the Goths there was wide spread panic. When the Goths attacked the Romans were ill equipped to handle the situation. The Roman army works best when they are organized in a formation of any kind, not street, urban warfare was not their specialty. Essentially once they were inside the capital city they had already won the fight. After the attack the Roman government fell. At that point is where we lose track of history, for the most part.
Cuncha
I don't think you can pinpoint the fall, but rather look at it's steady decline.

The ridiculous over analysis and focus on politics, the eventual leaders and emperors, the selfishness and insular views of the people in power etc etc all contribute to what was a decline in the great power.
deanhills
Maybe the invaders were lean and mean. And the Romans weakened by a too comfortable lifestyle over too long a period of time. Think that is the kind of history that has repeated itself over and over again. I would say another factor would be that the Roman Empire had been spread too far and wide and instead of allowing colonies to manage themselves as Alexander the Great used to do (delegate), had to conquer and control with the deployment of many troops and administrative staff. The armies were also slow to move in comparison with the barbarians.
rhocutt
if you realy think about egypt is probably the oldest nation. ofcourse it has been conquered once or twice but it keeps returning Razz. Isrel is the same way. though for the longest time during the bc period isrel was split (Judea and isrel)back to rome though i do think that barbrians were a big part of the nation crumbeling. they pretty much pulled out one of the main parts of the jenga tower. what also made it crumble was that at the time miltary leaders were takeing over rome and fight for power weakening rome's armies.

one interesting thing about rome was that the formula for creating concrete was actualy created durring the bc period by the greeks then taken and adapted by the rome then was lost till the 1800s!









forgive my mispells typing outrageously fast.
deanhills
rshanthakumar wrote:
Talking of the real reason for the fall of Rome, however big it was.

In the days of the earlier Roman rulers, the king was close to the people. There was a senate that brought up representations to the governing body. But slowly and steadily this good practice was corrupted. 'one good custom would corrupt the world'.

With a large rise in the complexity of life as it is in today's world, it is true that every person will have his own role to play. Whereas if the government were to move away from the people then that is the end of it. The country was doomed mainly because of this reason. Enemies always exist for any state. When the people are motivated and working hard, they would produce the needed energy to fight them off. Only when they are not motivated enough the country will succumb to the aggressors.


Good point. Sometimes people within the civilization can turn into their own worst enemies. But I have to ask. Is it the Government which is moving away from the people, or the people from the Government?
ZenFountain
The primary reason Rome failed was that they relied far to heavily on foreign auxiliaries to defend their borders as incentive for Roman citizens to serve dwindled over years. It's also the reason the republican army failed, resulting in professional armies that were more attached to their leaders than the state. Poor governance, invasion, economic woes, disease and unrest were obviously contributing factors to the decline and fall of the empire but the bureaucracy that actually ran the empire was surprisingly resilient to all those factors through the years.

We often like to think of Rome as one single unit of empire but it was actually many units, based on geographic boundaries that together formed the idea of Rome. That's why Rome technically survived well into the second millennium despite the loss of the entire western empire. It really wasn't until the earlier part of the second millennium that civilization as a whole throughout the Mediterranean had entirely into something different than Roman civilization and the idea of Rome had totally died.
ptfrances
I agree with Cuncha
Smile
vontero
Why did Rome Fall?

There are adherents to single factors, but more people think Rome fell because of a combination of such factors as Christianity, decadence, lead, monetary trouble, and military problems. Even the rise of Islam is proposed as the reason for Rome's fall, by some who think the Fall of Rome happened at Constantinople in the 15th Century.
ThePolemistis
Wenlow wrote:

When you look at other areas of the earth - especialy China but also India, Persia/Iran what you see are Empires rising and falling, but then after a time they, or at least similar ones over similar areas, rise again. But this did not happen with Rome. Why?


Was there ever an Indian Empire?
Bikerman
http://history-world.org/indian_empire.htm
ThePolemistis
Bikerman wrote:
http://history-world.org/indian_empire.htm


Thanks, I didn't know about this.
But then, where was its revival?

Weslow wrote:
When you look at other areas of the earth - especialy China but also India, Persia/Iran what you see are Empires rising and falling, but then after a time they, or at least similar ones over similar areas, rise again. But this did not happen with Rome. Why?
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