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What's the diference





Azmo
In some countries no1 even care if you say that you are a proud citizen of that country, no matter what color you have on your skin, or where you come from.. in US for example, no matter if you are white, black, yellow, green, purple or blue you can stand up and say that you are proud of beeing american.. it's ok.. (yes there are always rasism in all countries but leave that for now)

But when it comes to Sweden for example (where I live), it's not ok to be proud Swedish, if you say that you are, you are a rasist.. it's not ok for a white man or woman in sweden to love their country and talk about it.. cause if you do.. you are a rasist.. Sweden are one of the top countries in accepting emigrants.. but I think that I never heard a single one who is none swedish to say that they are happy that they got in to sweden, or that they love the country... why is that so? I've only been in US for a few weeks in total.. but I've heard alot of ppl saying something like that.. love America, proud american etc...

so my point.. why is this so different between countries? Why is it ok to be a proud member of some countries and not ok to some other? I mean, we (sweden) havn't been directly involved in a war for over 200 years... (passiv during the WW), we accept alot of emigrants, not many poor people, high influance in the world both financial and polithic.. working for peace etc.. behaving rather good and dont get in trouble... but you cant be proud of that? But it is ok to be proud of America who goes to war alot often, and have alot more poor people etc and that's from many seen as the "world police" in a not so good way...

Just curious of what you think.. and I mean no harm to any country or religion.
Mr_CEO
This whole world is messed up. America has turned her back to God and the Biblical principles that this country was founded on. A hand-full of liberals have turned this great nation up-side down in only a few generations.

Our government deceives the people every chance it gets. Our free speech is monitored. The media is filtered and scripted. Security is costing us our privacy.

Our wars are unjustified and fruitless. The president has failed in the Iraqi war, but wont be man enough to admit it... I mean, you don't go onto a car lot; leave with a broom and say mission accomplished. The education system here just doesn't work.

America teaches it's kids to have sex, abuse drugs and kill but, stay clear of church at all cost.

I love what's left of the freedoms in this country, but I hate watching them fade away.

As far as racism, It's the cancer America puts a Band-Aid on. It's killing us but so long as we can see the lump, we're happy.

There is no middle-class anymore! I don't care what anyone says.
You’re either rich or you’re dirt poor. If you're in the middle you're expected to keep up with the rich.

Anyone who thinks America is the promised-land or the land of opportunities has been grossly misinformed. We're no longer free, our president is no longer brave.


Barak Obama 08!
a_dubDesign
seems odd that patriotism isn't cool in sweden. Although I think a lot of what gets called patriotism here in the US seems to border on nationalism, but I digress.

I think part of it plays into the points you made in your third paragraph. If so many people weren't overly patriotic I doubt we would be known as the world police and start wars and the like. "Our country and how we do things is so great everyone should do it just like us." And the government definitely pushes that type of "patriotism" when it wants something done.

But I think having a healthy sense of patriotism is a good thing, and your example of Sweden is a bit weird to me.
Indi
Azmo wrote:
in US for example, no matter if you are white, black, yellow, green, purple or blue you can stand up and say that you are proud of beeing american.. it's ok..

Just so long as you're not gay. Or liberal, it seems.
The Conspirator
Mr_CEO wrote:
This whole world is messed up. America has turned her back to God and the Biblical principles that this country was founded on. A hand-full of liberals have turned this great nation up-side down in only a few generations.

Um, this country was not founded on biblical principles (that is a lie perpetrated by the Christan right so that they could force there religions rules into the law), is fact many of the founding fathers where deists.
Bikerman
Mr_CEO wrote:
This whole world is messed up. America has turned her back to God and the Biblical principles that this country was founded on. A hand-full of liberals have turned this great nation up-side down in only a few generations.

The US constitution is not based on biblical principles. Aside from article 6 ("no religious Test shall ever be required as Qualification" for federal office holders) I cannot recall any mention of religion.
a_dubDesign
Indi wrote:
Azmo wrote:
in US for example, no matter if you are white, black, yellow, green, purple or blue you can stand up and say that you are proud of beeing american.. it's ok..

Just so long as you're not gay. Or liberal, it seems.

Well we all know that liberals aren't really american, they're actually anti-american. And, well, the gays aren't even human.

(the above is complete sarcasm, hard to pull off on the internet with people who don't know you)
Azmo
just thought that it might have something to do with fear.. in Sweden we kinda bunch all emigrants together in one area.. like "ok, welcome, here can you live" and then they have to work themselves out of there.. but most of them don't.. they stay and keep their culture, speak their own language and stuff.. and might think bad of the swedish people cause we bunch them together and not "let them in" to the society.. not true tho.. it's just that you cant give every emigrant a house in a ncie area.. we cant afford that.. so instead we have "small iraq" in every city..
HereticMonkey
The Conspirator wrote:
Mr_CEO wrote:
This whole world is messed up. America has turned her back to God and the Biblical principles that this country was founded on. A hand-full of liberals have turned this great nation up-side down in only a few generations.

Um, this country was not founded on biblical principles (that is a lie perpetrated by the Christan right so that they could force there religions rules into the law), is fact many of the founding fathers where deists.


Sure, as long as you have no idea what deism is. Which means, by the way that the basics of Christianity apply, once you scrap all of the supernatural stuff.

Bikerman: What about freedom of religion and separation of church and state? Bear in mind that just because something is founded on the beliefs of a religion, you're not going to see them directly. After all, how often do you see the foundation of your house?

HM
HereticMonkey
Indi wrote:
Azmo wrote:
in US for example, no matter if you are white, black, yellow, green, purple or blue you can stand up and say that you are proud of beeing american.. it's ok..

Just so long as you're not gay. Or liberal, it seems.


Actually, I would have thought it was conservative white males...After all, just about every other group has experienced a lot of growth over the last few decades, and CWM's have become pariahs on a lot of fronts...

HM
jmwarshay
Did you know that the Pledge of Allegiance was originally written by a socialist? See http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

It was written for a Columbus Day celebration in 1892. The author wanted to use the word equality with "liberty and justice" but knew that members of the committee celebrating the holiday would object due to bias against women and blacks.

The phrase "under God" was added in 1954 to show that Americans were different from the Godless communists.

The Pledge of Allegiance is now a ritual to open public meetings.

Our Declaration of Independence states that "All Men are created equal." It would be appropriate to put the word equality into the Pledge as the author intended.
Azmo
well I just think it's wrong that you can walk in a town where you lived for like 20 years, and still be affraid because u dont know the cultures...

But why is that.. as I mentioned before.. most of the emigrants never work themselves out of that area they are placed when they get accepted to a town.. they stay.. spending their money on sick cars instead of trying to move on to another area and get to know their new city, their new country.. yes I can understand that they feel safety with "their own people" but is that why they left? "We move from iraq, to live in 'mini' iraq in another country" ?
Bikerman
Azmo wrote:
well I just think it's wrong that you can walk in a town where you lived for like 20 years, and still be affraid because u dont know the cultures...

So you think that residents in an area should have some say in who else moves into the area?
Quote:
But why is that.. as I mentioned before.. most of the emigrants never work themselves out of that area they are placed when they get accepted to a town.. they stay.. spending their money on sick cars instead of trying to move on to another area and get to know their new city, their new country.. yes I can understand that they feel safety with "their own people" but is that why they left? "We move from iraq, to live in 'mini' iraq in another country" ?

Firstly I think this is a gross generalisation - new immigrants do tend to select areas with others of their native culture, for obvious and understandable reasons, but often the grouping is caused by immigration policy which moves new immigrants to specific areas. (I must add the rider that I'm only talking with any knowledge about the situation here in the UK).
The issue is nothing to do with 'working themselves out of an area' since in my experience many new immigrants work harder and longer than many 'natives'. Many of them left because they wanted a better life for themselves and their children - who doesn't? Personally I quite like having different areas of a city or large town which are largely of a single culture, so you can go and eat in Chinatown, pop into the Indian area to buy some spices, nip down to little-Italy for a cappuccino and finish the day in the Caribbean suburb dancing to some great reggae/soca music...that's a great day out for me:-)
Soulfire
If I said anything pro-White, I'd be labelled a racist. But others are free to yell pro-(insert race here) things and be perfectly fine. A bit of a double standard, no doubt.
Bikerman
HereticMonkey wrote:

Bikerman: What about freedom of religion and separation of church and state? Bear in mind that just because something is founded on the beliefs of a religion, you're not going to see them directly. After all, how often do you see the foundation of your house?


Sorry, I missed this earlier, I wasn't ignoring it.
I'm saying that I don't believe the US was founded on Christian beliefs at all.
Sure, it is true that many Americans would have counted themselves Christian, but I think it is true to say that many of the 'founding fathers' held to deist and freemasonry principles. Surely one must acknowledge that the constitution was a declaration of principles and that it is no accident that it is a secular document. It is also no accident that the constitution makes it clear that the government derives from the people, not from god. The fact that the preamble starts with
Quote:
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union...."
and thenceforth omits references to God is not accidental, I believe, and nor is it simply because this was accepted as a given, or, as you characterise it, 'underpinning the whole edifice'.
(apologies for the extension of your metaphor, but I think it's one of my better ones) Smile
stone1343
Americans: let's stop talking about whether or not America was founded on religious principles or not, or whether liberals or conservatives are ruining the country. The question here is "Is it racist to be proud of your heritage?"

I'm a 7th-generation Canadian (yes, we do exist!) and I'm proud of it, but I don't think that makes me racist. I don't think anyone thinks I'm racist because I'm proud of my heritage and my country.

However, I was on a site this morning where you pick which girl you think is prettier, and because a visible minority had a lower ranking than maybe she deserved, whites were called racist.
{name here}
stone1343 wrote:
Americans: let's stop talking about whether or not America was founded on religious principles or not, or whether liberals or conservatives are ruining the country. The question here is "Is it racist to be proud of your heritage?"

Considering that whole thing with Indians and Manifest Destiny, yes.
stone1343
{name here} wrote:
stone1343 wrote:
Americans: let's stop talking about whether or not America was founded on religious principles or not, or whether liberals or conservatives are ruining the country. The question here is "Is it racist to be proud of your heritage?"

Considering that whole thing with Indians and Manifest Destiny, yes.


Explain, please. I'm not American, but even if I was it wouldn't make me racist just because my country had some racist beliefs over a century ago.
Bikerman
stone1343 wrote:
{name here} wrote:
stone1343 wrote:
Americans: let's stop talking about whether or not America was founded on religious principles or not, or whether liberals or conservatives are ruining the country. The question here is "Is it racist to be proud of your heritage?"

Considering that whole thing with Indians and Manifest Destiny, yes.


Explain, please. I'm not American, but even if I was it wouldn't make me racist just because my country had some racist beliefs over a century ago.

The question was, though, would it be racist to be proud of your heritage? A heritage founded on the theft of land from, and subsequent genocide of, the native population.
{name here}
stone1343 wrote:
{name here} wrote:
stone1343 wrote:
Americans: let's stop talking about whether or not America was founded on religious principles or not, or whether liberals or conservatives are ruining the country. The question here is "Is it racist to be proud of your heritage?"

Considering that whole thing with Indians and Manifest Destiny, yes.


Explain, please. I'm not American, but even if I was it wouldn't make me racist just because my country had some racist beliefs over a century ago.

If you are proud of your heritige, you are proud of your past. America's past was particularily racist, meaning you approve of racism if that makes sense to you. The KKK, American Nazi Party, Manifest Destinhy, Slavery, Woman's Suffrage and Segregation are all parts of the past of the USA. Manifest Destiny was basically an excuse used by western settlers based on religious beliefs that said that they had the right to take over the land of Indians IIRC.
HoboPelican
{name here} wrote:

If you are proud of your heritige, you are proud of your past. America's past was particularily racist, meaning you approve of racism if that makes sense to you. The KKK, American Nazi Party, Manifest Destinhy, Slavery, Woman's Suffrage and Segregation are all parts of the past of the USA. Manifest Destiny was basically an excuse used by western settlers based on religious beliefs that said that they had the right to take over the land of Indians IIRC.


Is that a little one-sided? Can't you be proud of aspects of your heritage without agreeing with every thought and action exhibited by your predecessors? I am quite proud of aspects of my US heritage, but don't condone ALL the actions perpetrated here (past and present). I would imagine that there are few groups of people that don't have skeletons in their closets. Conversely, I would think that most groups also have things to be proud of. I think the important question would be which aspects of your heritage you are proud of.
{name here}
HoboPelican wrote:

Is that a little one-sided? Can't you be proud of aspects of your heritage without agreeing with every thought and action exhibited by your predecessors?

You can, but I don't believe that would be truly being proud of your heritige, but rather it's only being proud of parts of your heritige that you approve(sorry if anything here isn't spelled right - I'm not using SeaMonkey).
HereticMonkey
{name here} wrote:
\
If you are proud of your heritige, you are proud of your past. America's past was particularily racist, meaning you approve of racism if that makes sense to you. The KKK, American Nazi Party, Manifest Destinhy, Slavery, Woman's Suffrage and Segregation are all parts of the past of the USA. Manifest Destiny was basically an excuse used by western settlers based on religious beliefs that said that they had the right to take over the land of Indians IIRC.


[Pointing out real quick that "suffrage" is gaining the right to vote; are you saying that women gaining the right to vote was a bad thing Shocked ?]

However, there are a number of things to be proud of as an American (our freedoms, the American Revolution, our inventness, our diversity and that it's considered wrong to be against diversity, and a host of other things).

It's easy to condemn the past; at the same time, it's something that we should learn from. If a nation can learn from its mistakes, is that a bad thing? Or should a nation always be judged on its mistakes and not on what it has accomplished?

HM
a_dubDesign
Azmo wrote:
well I just think it's wrong that you can walk in a town where you lived for like 20 years, and still be affraid because u dont know the cultures...

I think its wrong too. 20 years of being afraid but never bothering to learn about the cultures in someones community. Google some stuff, or better yet, go talk to someone from there. The culture isn't responsible for educating those outside of it.

Azmo wrote:
But why is that.. as I mentioned before.. most of the emigrants never work themselves out of that area they are placed when they get accepted to a town.. they stay.. spending their money on sick cars instead of trying to move on to another area and get to know their new city, their new country.. yes I can understand that they feel safety with "their own people" but is that why they left? "We move from iraq, to live in 'mini' iraq in another country" ?

I'll skip the generalization bit since someone already mentioned it. Think about the message thats being sent to emigrants with this type of action/thinking. You left your horrible situations in your home country to come to what you believe to be a much better place. You can come in, but you have to live in this one place with all the other people like you who don't belong here. But if you work really hard to prove that your good enough, and you ditch your culture, then you can move out and become a real part of the nation. But we don't think you're good enough yet. Its like middle school lunchroom tables on a huge scale.
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