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Pearl Harbor





b|ade
Pearl Harbor
What are your thoughts on it? Since I live in Hawaii, the event changed our lifestyles for about 4 years after World War II ended. But now days, our economy is built on Japanese coming here, and skyrocketing our tourism. The effects were drastic no doubt, but it seems subtle now. Did we forgive or did we forget about the events that occurred between two very powerful nations?
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I thought that the Japanese were very strategic yet, the seemed to be cunning it the fact that they had representatives at the White House hours before the attack and almost immediately after they left, the planes when in and the bombings commenced. I do also believe that the U.S. could have helped prevent some casualties by verifying the presence of planes. The U.S. had detected the Japaneses planes on radar, but blew it off, thinking they were U.S. B-52s coming in from test runs.)

Your thoughts?
Moonspider
b|ade wrote:
Pearl Harbor
What are your thoughts on it? Since I live in Hawaii, the event changed our lifestyles for about 4 years after World War II ended. But now days, our economy is built on Japanese coming here, and skyrocketing our tourism. The effects were drastic no doubt, but it seems subtle now. Did we forgive or did we forget about the events that occurred between two very powerful nations?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought that the Japanese were very strategic yet, the seemed to be cunning it the fact that they had representatives at the White House hours before the attack and almost immediately after they left, the planes when in and the bombings commenced. I do also believe that the U.S. could have helped prevent some casualties by verifying the presence of planes. The U.S. had detected the Japaneses planes on radar, but blew it off, thinking they were U.S. B-52s coming in from test runs.)

Your thoughts?


Actually, it was B-17s coming in that day, not B-52s. Wink The B-52 was a decade later.

As far as forgiving, as a nation I believe we have done so. My grandparents' generation, who fought and died against the Japanese, perhaps not. I understand that and will never condemn them for not doing so. American kids these days could probably care less, even if they know anything about the Pacific theater in World War II. For generations after mine (Gen-X) World War II probably seems as distant and as meaningless to them as the Seven Years War. So culturally the sting of Pearl Harbor is forgotten if not forgiven.

Today Japan and the United States share very close ties and I can't imagine anything coming between our two countries in the foreseeable future. We are as friendly as two nations can be, IMHO. Japanese-U.S. relations are arguably even closer than our relations with Europe at this current point in history.

As for Japanese thinking in attacking Pearl Harbor, they did attempt to abide by the letter of the law with regard to the Geneva Conventions and declare war upon the U.S. before the attack on Pearl Harbor, but did not want to declare it so early that we could make any preparations for the attack. However, they failed to deliver the declaration of war before the attack began.

Tactically Pearl Harbor was a magnificent Japanese victory. Strategically it sealed the Empire's doom, just as Admiral Yamamoto feared. Even if Admiral Nagumo had ordered a second strike and/or if the U.S. carriers had been in port at the time of the attack (and thereby possibly severely damaged or destroyed), it would have only delayed the inevitable victory of the United States and her allies in the Pacific.

Respectfully,
M
jmwarshay
Do you want to stay angry forever? Do we want to fight forever? We have to make peace and go on with our lives.

I like the quote about a well-armed lamb. At this point, Japan is not going to attack the US again. Those tourists help keep the US trade deficit down, by the way.

There are greater dangers in the world today that the US needs to worry about. As for trade issues, China is a bigger issue than Japan.
Vrythramax
jmwarshay wrote:
Do you want to stay angry forever? Do we want to fight forever? We have to make peace and go on with our lives.

I like the quote about a well-armed lamb. At this point, Japan is not going to attack the US again. Those tourists help keep the US trade deficit down, by the way.

There are greater dangers in the world today that the US needs to worry about. As for trade issues, China is a bigger issue than Japan.


I personally hold no grudge against the Japanese at all. I think it would be extremely difficult for them to actually mount any kind of attack against the US (or anyone else for that matter) as (and I could be wrong here) I was under the impression they had no armed forces except for the Japanese National Police Force. Weren't they banned from having an organized Military arm after WW2?
Blaster
I think that we are now even with Japan so we should forget everything they did to us. We now are quite good friends with them so i think we should forgive them. Yes a lot of human lives where lost. But you have to learn from that. Rest in peace all that died because of what happend that day.

Little side note my parents maried on that day 60 years later
Vrythramax
Blaster wrote:
I think that we are now even with Japan so we should forget everything they did to us. We now are quite good friends with them so i think we should forgive them. Yes a lot of human lives where lost. But you have to learn from that. Rest in peace all that died because of what happend that day.

Little side note my parents maried on that day 60 years later


Your parents were married (correct spelling) in 2001? Shocked

I got married in 1996.
Blaster
my bad 50th anniversery of it. They where married in 1991.
bassman
I think we as a culture have largely forgiven the Japanese for what happened. I concur with what some other people have said about the WWII generation having a hard time forgiving, and I also don't blame them. Many people gave their lives to defeat the Japanese. However, today we have a great relationship with Japan, as we do with Germany (disagreements on some things notwithstanding).

I'm 23, and when I went to middle school and high school, we definitely learned about Pearl Harbor and it certainly affected me personally. Certainly, when 911 happened there many comparisons drawn to Pearl Harbor, so I don't think we have completely forgotten it as a culture. I do think that as time passes and those who were alive when it happened pass with it, it is gradually fading as a distant memory in our cultural consciousness.
Azmo
We were at war at the time.. you have to forgive after such a long time, all other coutnries have.. americans living in Japan, Jaws living in germany, germans living in russia etc.. also from other wars. black and white people are working together today, not fighting.. (most of them atleast), as someone said.. who wanna be angry forever.. can't hold someone back for something that happend 60 years ago, those who did it are prob no longer alive, and not many that lives today do actually remember that war from beeing there themselves. I know it's hard.. but you have to look at this from both sides.. why did japanes do this.. and why was it such big destruction.. it sure was a smart attack.. no one was ready for it.. but it was war.. so let's be friends instead Very Happy
bond4154
Moonspider wrote:
b|ade wrote:
Pearl Harbor
What are your thoughts on it? Since I live in Hawaii, the event changed our lifestyles for about 4 years after World War II ended. But now days, our economy is built on Japanese coming here, and skyrocketing our tourism. The effects were drastic no doubt, but it seems subtle now. Did we forgive or did we forget about the events that occurred between two very powerful nations?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought that the Japanese were very strategic yet, the seemed to be cunning it the fact that they had representatives at the White House hours before the attack and almost immediately after they left, the planes when in and the bombings commenced. I do also believe that the U.S. could have helped prevent some casualties by verifying the presence of planes. The U.S. had detected the Japaneses planes on radar, but blew it off, thinking they were U.S. B-52s coming in from test runs.)

Your thoughts?


Actually, it was B-17s coming in that day, not B-52s. Wink The B-52 was a decade later.

As far as forgiving, as a nation I believe we have done so. My grandparents' generation, who fought and died against the Japanese, perhaps not. I understand that and will never condemn them for not doing so. American kids these days could probably care less, even if they know anything about the Pacific theater in World War II. For generations after mine (Gen-X) World War II probably seems as distant and as meaningless to them as the Seven Years War. So culturally the sting of Pearl Harbor is forgotten if not forgiven.

Today Japan and the United States share very close ties and I can't imagine anything coming between our two countries in the foreseeable future. We are as friendly as two nations can be, IMHO. Japanese-U.S. relations are arguably even closer than our relations with Europe at this current point in history.

As for Japanese thinking in attacking Pearl Harbor, they did attempt to abide by the letter of the law with regard to the Geneva Conventions and declare war upon the U.S. before the attack on Pearl Harbor, but did not want to declare it so early that we could make any preparations for the attack. However, they failed to deliver the declaration of war before the attack began.

Tactically Pearl Harbor was a magnificent Japanese victory. Strategically it sealed the Empire's doom, just as Admiral Yamamoto feared. Even if Admiral Nagumo had ordered a second strike and/or if the U.S. carriers had been in port at the time of the attack (and thereby possibly severely damaged or destroyed), it would have only delayed the inevitable victory of the United States and her allies in the Pacific.

Respectfully,
M


/me whistles.

You pretty much summed up my thoughts rather easily.

Though it's interesting to note that many Japanese historians claim that Pearl Harbor occurred because of a communication error, and many were disgusted by the "dishonorable attack".
indianinworld
Quote:

Actually, it was B-17s coming in that day, not B-52s. Wink The B-52 was a decade later.

As far as forgiving, as a nation I believe we have done so. My grandparents' generation, who fought and died against the Japanese, perhaps not. I understand that and will never condemn them for not doing so. American kids these days could probably care less, even if they know anything about the Pacific theater in World War II. For generations after mine (Gen-X) World War II probably seems as distant and as meaningless to them as the Seven Years War. So culturally the sting of Pearl Harbor is forgotten if not forgiven.

Today Japan and the United States share very close ties and I can't imagine anything coming between our two countries in the foreseeable future. We are as friendly as two nations can be, IMHO. Japanese-U.S. relations are arguably even closer than our relations with Europe at this current point in history.

As for Japanese thinking in attacking Pearl Harbor, they did attempt to abide by the letter of the law with regard to the Geneva Conventions and declare war upon the U.S. before the attack on Pearl Harbor, but did not want to declare it so early that we could make any preparations for the attack. However, they failed to deliver the declaration of war before the attack began.

Tactically Pearl Harbor was a magnificent Japanese victory. Strategically it sealed the Empire's doom, just as Admiral Yamamoto feared. Even if Admiral Nagumo had ordered a second strike and/or if the U.S. carriers had been in port at the time of the attack (and thereby possibly severely damaged or destroyed), it would have only delayed the inevitable victory of the United States and her allies in the Pacific.

Respectfully,
M


Perfectly said : Hats-off to you guy. I had a feeling that i personally went thru the history pages. Cool
Coclus
Yeah i don't have anything to add, but that the Japanese did the same kind of attack around 1900 when they attacked a chinese harbor controlled by the russians...
medievalman26
Actually it is a known fact that the Japanese had intended Pearl Harbor to be an expected attack on the U.S. What happened is that the message that they were coming was put on someones desk on Friday and that person did not want to do more work so left it for Monday morning. Unfortuneately the attack was going to happen on Sunday. So the "suprise attack" was not intended that way. Also RADAR had just been introduced and so they did not fully trust it yet and when they dected the planes coming in it might have been thought of as a glitch or it could have been reported and dismissed. Also the commanders might have been out at the time because after all it was a Sunday.
Moonspider
medievalman26 wrote:
Actually it is a known fact that the Japanese had intended Pearl Harbor to be an expected attack on the U.S. What happened is that the message that they were coming was put on someones desk on Friday and that person did not want to do more work so left it for Monday morning. Unfortuneately the attack was going to happen on Sunday. So the "suprise attack" was not intended that way.


Here I am going to disagree with you and correct my previous post at the same time. Wink

Japan did not attempt to declare war before the attack, as I stated earlier. Furthermore, Japan had no intention of giving up the tactical advantage of surprise against Pearl Harbor. They never told the United States that, "they were coming." They did indeed intend a surprise attack.

Ronald H. Spector wrote:

A final warning never reached the Pearl Harbor commanders at all because of fumblings and oversights in Washington. In the early morning of December 7 (Washington time), Naval Intelligence had intercepted and read the last part of a long, fourteen-part Japanese reply to Secretary of State Hull's proposals. This final section of the Japanese reply announced that Tokyo was breaking off any further negotiations. Army Intelligence intercepted another message at the same time, instructing Ambassador Nomura to submit the entire fourteen-part document to the State Department at 1:00 P.M. Washington time on Sunday, December 7.
Ronald H. Spector, Eagle Against the Sun (New York: Vintage Books, 1985), pp. 94-95

The entire text of the Japanese message may be found here: "Fourteen Part Message"

Japan actually declared war against the United States and Great Britain on December 8. Document: Japanese Declaration of War

I apologize for making an error in my earlier statement. It seems that I've watched Tora, Tora, Tora more often than I've re-read my college text books. Wink I thus mistook the Fourteen Part Message as a war declaration.

That being said, Admiral Yamamoto did not expect to achieve surprise, due to the difficulty in keeping such a large operation and movement of forces utterly secret.

Spector wrote:
There were two major difficulties: to achieve success, it was necessary to devise an effective weapon for sinking battleships in the shallow anchorage at Pearl Harbor. To achieve surprise, it was necessary for the attacking carriers and their escorts to approach within two hundred miles of Hawaii without being discovered....The Naval General Staff was less than enthusiastic about the Pearl Harbor scheme. It pointed out that the essential surprise element could easily be lost by a chance meeting with a foreign ship or plane...
Ibid., p. 81

Spector wrote:

The Japanese hoped to achieve surprise, but they were not counting on it. Admiral Nagumo and his staff half expected to have to fight their way in.
Ibid., p. 99

Respectfully,
M
turbowolf
It's unfortunate that USA and Japan fall into fight. But anyway it's the past. Forget the past and look forward. USA and Japan are best friends now.

b|ade wrote:
Pearl Harbor
What are your thoughts on it? Since I live in Hawaii, the event changed our lifestyles for about 4 years after World War II ended. But now days, our economy is built on Japanese coming here, and skyrocketing our tourism. The effects were drastic no doubt, but it seems subtle now. Did we forgive or did we forget about the events that occurred between two very powerful nations?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought that the Japanese were very strategic yet, the seemed to be cunning it the fact that they had representatives at the White House hours before the attack and almost immediately after they left, the planes when in and the bombings commenced. I do also believe that the U.S. could have helped prevent some casualties by verifying the presence of planes. The U.S. had detected the Japaneses planes on radar, but blew it off, thinking they were U.S. B-52s coming in from test runs.)

Your thoughts?
Vrythramax
bond4154 wrote:
/me whistles.


/me whistles? Someone has been spending some time in IRC channels Laughing

(BTW....you get the same effect using /action whistles Wink )
Moonspider
turbowolf wrote:
It's unfortunate that USA and Japan fall into fight. But anyway it's the past. Forget the past and look forward. USA and Japan are best friends now.


Absolutely.

Respectfully,
M
medievalman26
Thanks M for the info. As my teacher always says you never learn from something correctly you learn from when your wrong.
ordspil
I have never been on Hawaii, but of course I have seen the movie called Pearl Harbor, and I am sure Hawaii is a nice Island for tourists. I would like to go there one day, that would be nice Very Happy It is just a long trip from small little Denmark in Scandinavia in Europe Razz
Aiz
Because of the fact that I've been reading and watching stuff about Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombings, my feelings for the pearl harbor event is mixed.

All that talk about "forgiving" them. Do remember who dropped atomic bombs in residential cities in what country. Personally, I don't think Pearl Harbor was as horrible as what happened because of the 2 atomic bombs, since at least Pearl Harbor was a military base when Hiroshima was residential. We have been taught in school that the Americans picked a lightly populated, very rural part of Japan to "minimize" the amount of destruction. But no matter what was said, I don't think that would excuse them from what they did, especially the second bomb when victory was already certain.

I'm not saying that the Japanese were not at fault. I'm Chinese, our country was badly attacked by them at approximately the same time (which the Japanese refuse to acknowledge as a part of history). Technically, we've been taught since little about the horrible things they did, which means we are supposed to hate them more or less. but there's really no point trying to figure out the "truth" of things happened during wars and no use pointing blames. Intentions or motives don't matter to me at all since, in my point of view, only the suffering of the citizens everywhere resulted mattered.

And I totally went off on a tangent...yet again. ><
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