(Please, I have no intent to offend Islam or Muslims, if the questions are worded offensively, it is not intentional, it is because of my lack of awareness of how to word it properly for you)
Coming from a Christian background, I feel fairly familiar with the Bible. I know the Old Testament describes the story of the tribes of Israel, and their God and I have a basic understanding how the Torah relates to Judaism. I know the New Testament tells the story of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. My understanding is that Muslims accept the Torah, and much of the Christian Bible as the word of God.
What I have no idea, is what is in the Qur'an? I know it is the word of God as revealed to the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) , but more specifically, does it have the history part that the Torah and Bible have? Does it describe the story of a tribe or any specific people? Does it refer to the Torah and the Bible, and indicate how they should be interpreted? Does it discuss Adam, Moses, Abraham and Jesus? Does it talk of God's miracles? Does it lay out the rules for Sharia law?
Thank you
| Quote: |
| My understanding is that Muslims accept the Torah, and much of the Christian Bible as the word of God. |
Yes, the Koran instructs Muslims to accept the Torah and the gospels, and to not chastise Jews or Christians. In Islam, Jesus is viewed as a prophet. Muslims do accept Jesus. Muslims do accept Moses. There’s just a difference in how they view Jesus.
| Quote: |
| What I have no idea, is what is in the Qur'an? I know it is the word of God as revealed to the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) , but more specifically, does it have the history part that the Torah and Bible have? Does it describe the story of a tribe or any specific people? Does it refer to the Torah and the Bible, and indicate how they should be interpreted? |
First of all, it is important to know that if the "Bibles" of today, with all their versions and differences in the quantity of their "books" and "gospels", were in fact the Original Holy Word of GOD Almighty, then there would be no need for the Noble Quran. But since they are corrupt, then Muslims obviously can't consider them as GOD Almighty's Holy and Divine Words.
There existed many different Bibles during the time of the Roman Emperor, Constantine, which were widely believed in by different Christian sects in the year 312. In other words, during the first 3 centuries of "Christianity" (300 years), many different canons with 100s of books/gospels combined existed! That is a lot of canons, a lot of books/gospels, and a lot of time (300 years) of different Christian religions existed. Also, Constantine's own "unified canon or bible" got lost and only small portions of it were found! So what we have today from "Bible(s)" are not even Constantine's books.
Muslims says that the Noble Quran came to confirm Truth that exists in the Manuscripts in the different canons and to filter out Truth from falsehood in them. Allah Almighty never claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine. Islam is a witness on the Bible. It filters out the truth from falsehood and corruption in the Bible. The Noble Quran only recognizes the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration in it. Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that has even the slightest disagreement with Islam.
| Quote: |
| >Does it discuss Adam, Moses, Abraham and Jesus? Does it talk of God's miracles? Does it lay out the rules for Sharia law? |
Yes, Quran tell about Adam, Moses, Abraham and Jesus. Quran also talk about God's miracles. | ahmadie wrote: |
| Quote: | | My understanding is that Muslims accept the Torah, and much of the Christian Bible as the word of God. |
Yes, the Koran instructs Muslims to accept the Torah and the gospels, and to not chastise Jews or Christians.
|
Only in a two faced way, if at all. The Qur'an asserts that the Bible is totally corrupted and thus implies that it is useless. The Qur'an asserts that the great majority of Christians and Jews reject Islam not out of sincere disbelief, but rather out of "jealousy" in a fashion that could only be attributed to Satanists.
And thus Muslims are quick to accuse ANYONE who disagrees with them of being unwilling to submit to the will of Allah. That is the definition of being a Satanists. It is such an old cliché in Islam that it gets translated into English the same way every time. Muslims even call each other Satanists and atheists at the drop of a hat.
And why the hell does the Qur’an conflate atheism with Satanism as well? If you sincerely look for God in a Godless world and get discouraged because you can’t find him, the Qur’an insists that you are the worst of all sinners. The Qur’an is a book of bigotry and hate.Maybe it is prejudiced, but that's how doctrines are. All of the "Holy" books tell you how to live. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Religions designate what a person should be for and against. Even Satanists and Pagans are against some things and for others. Thats why there are wars...well, that and money.
Name another religion that claims to be tolerant and permissive of a group, treating them with peace and respect, and yet at the same time describing them in inflammatory terms that indirectly incites violence against them? It is one thing to be against something, it is quite another to be two faced about it. (Please tolerate them, even though they are really evil Satanists [who should be treated accordingly]...)
The only other world religion that riles against any other religion is Christianity riling against dead religions that died in short order after the rise of Christianity, suggesting that they were not morally sound and perhaps Christianity had a valid case against them.
The Qur'an never presents an even remotely valid case against Christians and Jews, even though it riles against them endlessly.
| stone1343 wrote: |
(Please, I have no intent to offend Islam or Muslims, if the questions are worded offensively, it is not intentional, it is because of my lack of awareness of how to word it properly for you)
|
peace be upon you.
I'm sure if you have no intention to offend, then you won't. So don't worry! Otherwise, you'll become bold from stress. Do you want to be bold? No? Then don't worry. Lol... 
| Quote: |
Coming from a Christian background, I feel fairly familiar with the Bible. I know the Old Testament describes the story of the tribes of Israel, and their God and I have a basic understanding how the Torah relates to Judaism. I know the New Testament tells the story of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. My understanding is that Muslims accept the Torah, and much of the Christian Bible as the word of God.
|
Muslims believe the Old Testament WAS the Word of God. Muslims believe it has been corrupted. E.g. Muslims believe that Ishmael was almost sacrificed not Isaac (for reasons other than Ishmael was the arab Muslims' ancestor).
Muslims believe the New Testament ISN'T the Word of God. It merely contains Words of God. Islam says like Moses recieved the Torah, Jesus recieved the Gospel. However since the New Testament doesn't contain the Gospel of Jesus, only the gospels of matthew, mark, luke and john, it was never originally the Word of God. But some things in those gospels are very true, e.g. Mark 12:29-31.
| Quote: |
What I have no idea, is what is in the Qur'an? I know it is the word of God as revealed to the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) , but more specifically, does it have the history part that the Torah and Bible have? Does it describe the story of a tribe or any specific people? Does it refer to the Torah and the Bible, and indicate how they should be interpreted? Does it discuss Adam, Moses, Abraham and Jesus? Does it talk of God's miracles? Does it lay out the rules for Sharia law?
Thank you |
Your welcome.
Anyway, i'll explain what the Qur'an contains. While the Bible contains a history of God's communication with mankind, the Qur'an IS the communication between God and mankind.
Surah (chapter) 1 is the most widely read, most recited. In-fact if you meet a Muslim who can't recite Surah 1 from heart of the Qur'an, then he's not a Muslim (i'll say why later). Surah 1 is called Al-Fatiha meaning "the opening" or "the key". In other words, a key to God.
It is always read in Salat (the Muslim ritual prayer done five times a day).
Here is a translation of Al-Fatiha:
In the name of GOD, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to GOD, Lord of the universe.
Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Master of the Day of Judgment.
You alone we worship. You alone we ask for help.
Guide us in the right path;
The path of those whom You blessed; not of those who have deserved wrath, nor of the strayers.
Almost every prophet in the Bible is mentioned in the Qur'an. Some chapters of the Qur'an tell you stories of various prophets and so on. But whenever these stories are mentioned there is always a meaning behind each story. For example, the Qur'an retells the story of Moses, with emphasis on different parts each time, but with each retelling there is a new meaning.
One different between the Bible's telling of the prophets' stories and the Qur'an's is that almost every time the Bible shows a prophet messing up, or the prophet sinning, the Qur'an shows the prophet in a positive light. For example, Moses never reached the land promised because he sinned. In the Qur'an, Moses never reached the land promised because the Isrealities sinned.
The Qur'an never refers to the Bible. This is because the Bible itself is not from God. The Books inside are from God. The Bible is simply a collection of Books from over the centuries from different prophets. In-fact, the word 'bible', if i remember correctly, means 'collection of books' in hebrew/greek/some language. This is why the Qur'an only refers specifically to Books, but never to the Bible.
The Qur'an does refer to some tribes, but it's often negative. The reason is, that the Qur'an wants us to learn from the past's mistakes. For example, the Qur'an mentions a group of Jews who desecrated the Sabbath and were thus turned into apes.
The Qur'an, is probably, the only book that claims to be divine, and also answers its critiques. Probably every criticism brought against the Qur'an is mentioned and answered.
Does the Qur'an talk about Adam? Of course. In-fact, the Qur'an even talks about a bit BEFORE Genesis. Why are we on earth? What's the meaning of life? Life is a Test according to Islam. Here's what i wrote to some other guy:
beginquote-Allah made creation in some way. Then He made Adam from clay and water. Allah then told the rest of creation to bow to Adam in respect. All of them except one refused. All the angels bowed. Iblis didn't. Allah told Iblis to tell why. Iblis said something like: "i am better than Adam, because i was created from fire, but he is created from mere mud!" he was arrogant and thus became satan. So Allah was displeased. Satan knew he was going to be destroyed, for his arrogance could not be allowed in Heaven, so satan asked Allah if He would delay his fate and allow him to show Him how weak mankind really is. Satan promised to lead all the humans away from God to prove how weak they are. Allah told him he could never do this to those who truly loved Him.
And so the Test began. Adam and satan were put on earth. This is why we are on earth, this is the meaning of life, to be tested to see whether we truly love God. Will we fail to love and worship God or will we beat satan and love and worship God continually?
HOW Allah made Adam is unknown. We know the ingredients consisted of water and clay. Some believe evolution is true, and point to certain verses. Others believe creationism is true and point to other verses. However the Quran never accepts nor denys creationism and evolution.
Since Islam is orthopraxy, meaning it's mainly what you do and practice, not what you believe, then a Muslim can either believe in evolution or accept it.
If evolution is fully proven, then Islam will have no trouble with it. For when the Muslims had a powerful empire, they were very scientific. Science is not an enemy to Islam. 17:36 of the Quran tells us to prove our knowledge."-endquote
The Qur'an often quotes a miracle, and then gives it meanings.
The Shariah law is not laid down in the Qur'an. The Qur'an does give rules, but some Muslims don't feel this is enough. The Shariah is some Muslims' interpretations of the Hadiths (words supposed to have been said by the prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him). The problem is with the Shariah it is more of a 9th century interpretation. A whole new 21th interpretation of the Hadiths needs to happen. The Shariah itself is flawed. If i remember correctly, it prescribes stoning for adulterers. This is different to the Qur'an, which says you shouldn't kill them.
For a non-Muslim or a convert to Islam, they should not worry about the Shariah and ignore it. Any convert to Islam only needs to follow the Qur'an to be a Muslim.
Who goes to Heaven according to the Qur'an?
[2:62]: Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the (unitarian) Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
Feel free to ask more!
may God bless you deeply.About the offence part, I do admit to being a little afraid that someone will declare jihad on me for something I say. Obviously that's cultural ignorance on my part, but it still doesn't change the fact that I don't want to offend you in any way.
To clarify for you, yes "Bible" is based on the Greek word "biblio", so it makes sense that the word would never be mentioned.
Based on what little I know (I guess basically the negative cultural connotation we get from the media here in North America), I'm glad that Sharia law is not in the Qur'an.
I've posted earlier today about a thread between you and mike1reynolds, and I want to clarify that while I don't believe the Qur'an or the Bible, I respect both religions (I know even less about other religions, so I'm not talking about them) and now I know that the Qur'an is a beautiful book.
Actually, I wish more Christians could be like you, because you seem very reasonable, tolerant and understanding.
Peace be with you.
[quote="loyal"] | Quote: |
Coming from a Christian background, I feel fairly familiar with the Bible. I know the Old Testament describes the story of the tribes of Israel, and their God and I have a basic understanding how the Torah relates to Judaism. I know the New Testament tells the story of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. My understanding is that Muslims accept the Torah, and much of the Christian Bible as the word of God.
|
Muslims believe the Old Testament WAS the Word of God. Muslims believe it has been corrupted. E.g. Muslims believe that Ishmael was almost sacrificed not Isaac (for reasons other than Ishmael was the arab Muslims' ancestor).
[/qutoe]The Qur'an asserts that the Old Testament is all wrong by inventing it's own alternate versions. Wherre is there any evidence what-so-ever that the Qur'an's version is more correct even though it was written at a later date? It is a revisionist lie, the only real purpose for the Qur'an to give an alternate history is in order to make the claim that the Bible is all wrong, but where is there ANY evidence for this? It is just a claim in a vacuum, with no supporting evidence what-so-ever.
| loyal wrote: |
Muslims believe the New Testament ISN'T the Word of God. It merely contains Words of God. Islam says like Moses recieved the Torah, Jesus recieved the Gospel. However since the New Testament doesn't contain the Gospel of Jesus, only the gospels of matthew, mark, luke and john, it was never originally the Word of God. But some things in those gospels are very true, e.g. Mark 12:29-31.
|
You mean, because Jesus was murdered before he could write anything down, that invalidates the writings of his followers?
I want to address the earlier claim about how there are supposedly so many different Bibles, but the "evidence" used for this exclusively involves referencing Gnostic writings as if they had ever been part of the Bible. That is an extremely vacuous claim, Gnositc writings have never been part of the Bible, so that is a purely polemic argument. I read something about Islam/Qur'an at the Al Jazeera site... | Quote: |
A court in Azerbaijan has jailed two journalists for writing and printing a newspaper article that was critical of the Islamic religion and its founder, Muhammad.
Samir Sadagatoglu, chief editor of the Senet weekly newspaper, was sentenced to four years in prison on Friday, while Rafik Tagi, a journalist at the paper, was given three years.
The court ruled that their article 'Europe and us' was insulting to Islam and Muslims for saying that European societies were more successful than Muslim ones because Christian teachings were based on peace and tolerance while Islamic values, based on the teachings and actions of Muhammad, were not. |
The link to that article: http://english.aljazeera.net/News/Templates/Postings/DetailedPage.aspx?FRAMELESS=false&NRNODEGUID=%7b9806DBD9-777C-42B2-A740-BC9991C195DF%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fNR%2fexeres%2f9806DBD9-777C-42B2-A740-BC9991C195DF%2ehtm&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest
The point is this text halfway the article:
| Quote: |
| Soon after the article appeared, an Iranian cleric - angered by its depiction of Islam as a violent religion - offered his house to anyone who killed the journalists, Reuters reported on Friday. |
I would think that killing is violent.
Then why would this Iranian cleric offer his house to show the world that the article is right? Or is this man no follower of Islam? Or what? http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-53482.html&highlight=amish+girls
some people have real problems about killing.
but a muslim should prefer peace as it ordered in Quran.
and
according to Qoran it is same to kill one man or all men.
killers will go to hell. I am seriously and respectfully trying to understand this...
Someone called Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani (a senior Shia scholar from Tabriz, Iran) issued a fatwa against these two men. | Quote: |
according to Qoran it is same to kill one man or all men.
killers will go to hell. |
Does that mean that this Grand Ayatollah will go to hell? Or just the men he orders to go out and kill? | Quote: |
In the name of Allah, the Most Exalted
Such a person is an apostate in view of his confessions, if he is a Muslim. If he had been an unbeliever (Kafir), he is considered as someone who has insulted the Prophet and in any case, given his confessions, it is necessary for every individual who has an access to him to kill him. The person in charge of the said newspaper, who published such thoughts and beliefs consciously and knowingly, should be dealt with in the same manner. We pray to Almighty Allah to grant Muslims and Islam protection from the evils of their enemies.
Muhammad Fazel Lankarani, 24/11/2006 |
This is so confusing for non-muslims! Are you a Muslim, Palavra? Or can anyone who is enlighten me on the subject? peace be upon you royal.
I'm Muslim.
Let me first tell you that violence can only be used in self-defense.
So anyone, whether they be a "grand "ayatollah" or not, cannot tell anyone to go kill. The Qur'an reconfirms what the Torah says about murder. Killing one person is like killing humanity. Plus the Qur'an forbids killing several places in the Qur'an. Killing is only allowed in a war (the war must be self-defence).
You asked whether this man who told everyone to kill the two people, will go to Hell or not? It's not for us to judge. Maybe he's been good generally throughout his life and he's gone a bit bad recently. Or maybe he's been bad most of his life. Like i said, it's not for Muslims to judge.
Feel free to PM me to enquire more.
may God bless you.
| Royal wrote: |
I read something about Islam/Qur'an at the Al Jazeera site... | Quote: | A court in Azerbaijan has jailed two journalists for writing and printing a newspaper article that was critical of the Islamic religion and its founder, Muhammad.
Samir Sadagatoglu, chief editor of the Senet weekly newspaper, was sentenced to four years in prison on Friday, while Rafik Tagi, a journalist at the paper, was given three years.
The court ruled that their article 'Europe and us' was insulting to Islam and Muslims for saying that European societies were more successful than Muslim ones because Christian teachings were based on peace and tolerance while Islamic values, based on the teachings and actions of Muhammad, were not. |
The link to that article: http://english.aljazeera.net/News/Templates/Postings/DetailedPage.aspx?FRAMELESS=false&NRNODEGUID=%7b9806DBD9-777C-42B2-A740-BC9991C195DF%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fNR%2fexeres%2f9806DBD9-777C-42B2-A740-BC9991C195DF%2ehtm&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest
The point is this text halfway the article:
| Quote: | | Soon after the article appeared, an Iranian cleric - angered by its depiction of Islam as a violent religion - offered his house to anyone who killed the journalists, Reuters reported on Friday. |
I would think that killing is violent.
Then why would this Iranian cleric offer his house to show the world that the article is right? Or is this man no follower of Islam? Or what? |
Of course i don't support court's decision. But freedom of expression doesn't mean u can say whatever u want.
Ayatollah Lankarani's anger was the reason for fatwa. But there are people who kill for nothing.
Look http://www.frihost.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=608158#608158 | Royal wrote: |
I am seriously and respectfully trying to understand this...
Someone called Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani (a senior Shia scholar from Tabriz, Iran) issued a fatwa against these two men. | Quote: | according to Qoran it is same to kill one man or all men.
killers will go to hell. |
Does that mean that this Grand Ayatollah will go to hell? Or just the men he orders to go out and kill? | Quote: | In the name of Allah, the Most Exalted
Such a person is an apostate in view of his confessions, if he is a Muslim. If he had been an unbeliever (Kafir), he is considered as someone who has insulted the Prophet and in any case, given his confessions, it is necessary for every individual who has an access to him to kill him. The person in charge of the said newspaper, who published such thoughts and beliefs consciously and knowingly, should be dealt with in the same manner. We pray to Almighty Allah to grant Muslims and Islam protection from the evils of their enemies.
Muhammad Fazel Lankarani, 24/11/2006 |
This is so confusing for non-muslims! Are you a Muslim, Palavra? Or can anyone who is enlighten me on the subject? |
Firstly, yes i am a turkish muslim
secondly according to Islam right of living is one of the most important thing for a human.Under normal circumstances nobody can violate this right.
only a killer can be murdered for his crime.
killing is only acceptable for protecting your life,country,chastity.
thirdly in Islam "if you cause to anything ,you are like a person who commited this thing"
i mean if you cause to kill someone, you are a killer
if anyone kills those two men because of that Ayotullah's talking , he is also like a killer. | Quote: |
| freedom of expression doesn't mean u can say whatever u want. |
I could not agree more! Though I must say that the content of this newspapers article seems just an opinion (which religion seems to contain more rules resulting in violent deeds, can there be a relation to free development in communities, to wellbeing?). That opinion should not be formulated with the purpose of offending others (should even consciously try to stay clear of offence).
| Quote: |
| Ayatollah Lankarani's anger was the reason for fatwa. But there are people who kill for nothing. |
Anger is NOT a reason to kill, nor for fatwa. That seems to be common view at least at this forum. Anger is a reason for jihad against one's own emotions - lest they overpower your soul and make you disobey God. | Royal wrote: |
| Quote: | | freedom of expression doesn't mean u can say whatever u want. |
I could not agree more! Though I must say that the content of this newspapers article seems just an opinion (which religion seems to contain more rules resulting in violent deeds, can there be a relation to free development in communities, to wellbeing?). That opinion should not be formulated with the purpose of offending others (should even consciously try to stay clear of offence).
| Quote: | | Ayatollah Lankarani's anger was the reason for fatwa. But there are people who kill for nothing. |
Anger is NOT a reason to kill, nor for fatwa. That seems to be common view at least at this forum. Anger is a reason for jihad against one's own emotions - lest they overpower your soul and make you disobey God. |
But in fact it offended others and made lots of people take to streets.
I do not say anger IS a reason to kill and it can't be my view.
At least he will tell u the reason if u ask. But there are some who kill for fun. Both are their wrong personal views and should not be connected with religion. That is what i wanted to say. I just want to point out something that kind of needs touched on. The Quran does state that the Torah and New testament are corrupted, but this does not invalidate them for use as spiritual text, it simply means that they are not words from the mouth of God himself. Much can still be gained from their use. the "Old and New Testament" are still very much an important part of Islam. They are corrupted by man, and that should be taken into account, but any writing written by man on religion can be considered equally corrupt. Man is corrupt by nature, this simply means he is imperfect. The books do not need to be perfect in order to provide spiritual guidance.
That fact that some kill for no reason justifies a Muslim killing for a lame reason? http://rapidshare.com/files/22835827/QURANTRANSLATION.rar
if you want to read Quran in english
there are a few translations.
E_H_PALMER.CHM
HASAN_QARIBULLAH.CHM
INTRODUCTION TO THE QURAN RICHARD BELL.chm
J M RODWELL.chm
KORAN_FRENCH.CHM
KORAN_GERMAN.CHM
MAULVI_SHER_ALI.CHM
MUHAMMAD ASAD.chm
MUHAMMAD_MUHSIN_KHAN_AND_ALKHILALI.CHM
MUHAMMAD_SARWAR.CHM
SYED_AFTAB_ALI_BUKHARI.CHM
THOMAS_BALLANTYNE_IRVING.CHM
YUSUFALI_SHAKIR_PICKTHALL.CHM
Last edited by palavra on Thu May 10, 2007 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total | mike1reynolds wrote: |
That fact that some kill for no reason justifies a Muslim killing for a lame reason? |
| shamil wrote: |
| Both are their wrong personal views and should not be connected with religion. |
| mike1reynolds wrote: |
| ahmadie wrote: | | Quote: | | My understanding is that Muslims accept the Torah, and much of the Christian Bible as the word of God. |
Yes, the Koran instructs Muslims to accept the Torah and the gospels, and to not chastise Jews or Christians.
|
Only in a two faced way, if at all. The Qur'an asserts that the Bible is totally corrupted and thus implies that it is useless. The Qur'an asserts that the great majority of Christians and Jews reject Islam not out of sincere disbelief, but rather out of "jealousy" in a fashion that could only be attributed to Satanists.
And thus Muslims are quick to accuse ANYONE who disagrees with them of being unwilling to submit to the will of Allah. That is the definition of being a Satanists. It is such an old cliché in Islam that it gets translated into English the same way every time. Muslims even call each other Satanists and atheists at the drop of a hat.
And why the hell does the Qur’an conflate atheism with Satanism as well? If you sincerely look for God in a Godless world and get discouraged because you can’t find him, the Qur’an insists that you are the worst of all sinners. The Qur’an is a book of bigotry and hate. |
Friend, can you show some verses showing that the Qur'an conflates Atheism with Satanism? Because all your doing is ranting.
