Most Christians do not read the Bible, this is a fact.
If you are Christian and do not have a Bible, and have not read it from cover to cover there is
a set of Bibles on line: http://www.onlinebible.org/
Then it maybe a good idea to read some bible Contadictions http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/
by David Morgan of whom has done honest research.
I have included this article as I am fed up with so called people with so called religious understanding making remarks when they have not thoroughly read their religious book/s
Hope that this is of some help
Regards
Bob [/url] | Quote: |
Most Christians do not read the Bible, this is a fact.
|
Oke, if you say so..
(the same reply goes for the other 2 topics about this)
| Quote: |
Hope that this is of some help
|
I don't think there are many people who like to be told what and what not read.What do I care? I just want interesting input other than the normal boring trash.
Regards
Bob
English Translation: We're not saying what he wants to hear...Sorry?
HM
| silkmesh wrote: |
Most Christians do not read the Bible, this is a fact.
If you are Christian and do not have a Bible, and have not read it from cover to cover there is
a set of Bibles on line: http://www.onlinebible.org/
Then it maybe a good idea to read some bible Contadictions http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/
by David Morgan of whom has done honest research.
I have included this article as I am fed up with so called people with so called religious understanding making remarks when they have not thoroughly read their religious book/s
Hope that this is of some help
Regards
Bob [/url] |
Unfortunately, he's correct. There are a lot of people that haven't read the book they say they follow as well as they should have. The just take it for gratned that the person who is teaching them is correct.Not disagreeing with the detail that too many Christians or whatever haven't read their respective lit; I'm just noting that he's stirring up a lot of dust and a lot of people are disagreeing with him...
HM
Hey why do you think I am stirring up trouble.
I just want people to think for themselves for a change and in some depth at their beliefs.
I can not change your views only you can.
I you feel uncomfortable at what I am saying about your religion, then maybe you should read and study more to help you to be sure your belief and faith is the correct one for you.
I still pray to my maker and still lead a moral life, but I cut out the middleman a pray direct.
I hope I have been of some help.
Regards
Bob
| silkmesh wrote: |
Hey why do you think I am stirring up trouble.
|
You gave a pretty good clou:
| Quote: |
I have included this article as I am fed up with so called people with so called religious understanding
|
| Quote: |
I just want people to think for themselves for a change and in some depth at their beliefs.
|
I would like that too. But telling them what to think (or read) isn't really gonna help, is it?
| Quote: |
I you feel uncomfortable at what I am saying about your religion, then maybe you should read and study more to help you to be sure your belief and faith is the correct one for you.
|
I get the feeling you feel uncomfortable with what people think or say about religion.
| Quote: |
I still pray to my maker and still lead a moral life, but I cut out the middleman a pray direct.
|
If your happy with that, I'm happy for you.Of course I am not uncomfortable.
It anoys me that people can be so stupid, to believe in something that was created in by power creedy idiots between 5000 to 2000 years or so ago.
Whats your everloving God doing about this?
http://www.poverty.com/
Of course your have a stupid reply just like a sheep, ba ba ba
Think for your selfs, use logical thinking, get a bloody life dont be a waste of space.
Regards Thank you for your kind and clearyfing reply.
Regards,
Me
religion is all fake, it was made up by people a long time ago that didnt know how things worked. so im not saying you should be atheist but you should probly consider who it was that made up religion. especially since science is starting to prove everything.
Yet, the weird thing is...religion was already there. We know, thanks to physics, that all matter is made up of empty space, something that Buddhism had already shown. Hinduism already had a number of issues regarding the body, food and stress figured out, even before the massive amount of research over the last few decades. Heck, if you look at it from a planetbound observer's perspective, even the first verses of Genesis work out.
You can be spiritual and scientific...
HM
Many people are, that sort of thing started back in the sixties dude.
It was great fun.
I gone through that hippy thing and the music helped
Best regards
| HereticMonkey wrote: |
| Heck, if you look at it from a planetbound observer's perspective, even the first verses of Genesis work out. |
How does that work then ? | silkmesh wrote: |
Whats your everloving God doing about this?
|
Well, who says she has to do anything?
The bible, and Jesus, called on us to do something about it. "Love one another". Expecting someone or something else to do it for us is a cop out, in my humble opinion.Love thy neighbour?
Jesus was a great Phylospher he wanted to change the harsh and corrupted Jewish faith into a much fairer kinder and friendlier religion.
He was against many of the harsh punishments and unfair laws.
A very nice man but certainly not a god.
Regards
Christian - Catholic and I don't read it. ;o)
I do not read the Bible that often but I am of the obscene belief that I know my morals and can judge them myself.
Crazy, eh?
1) silkmesh, you are so obviously not from Cali. We use "dude" in place of a name, with a comma even. So, dude, it's like, well that.
2) Also, what started in the 60's? Most of the ideas I mentioned have been around for centuries, at least...
HM
| Zampano wrote: |
I do not read the Bible that often but I am of the obscene belief that I know my morals and can judge them myself.
Crazy, eh? |
Whoever said that you needed to read a book?
Also, silkmesh: Re: "Certainly not a god"
Dude, you sound like a bitter old woman...
HMI turn the other cheek, count to ten and then:
Have a nice day, your welcome to your opinion however educated or un-educated it sounds.
Best Regards
P.S. I am keeping my promise not to loose my cool and it will stay that way.
Gawd I hate Bible Thumpers... Dude, and I am from California. ;o)
Yes, you are. And who said anything about me being a bible-thumper? Keep in mind that opinions may appear bigger than they actually are. I have no problem defending the faith, but I'm also more moderate than most Christians. In other words, I have no problem debating various aspects, but I tend to respect other's views, as long as those views don't include squishing other's faith. I tend to respect atheists, as long as they don't shred my beliefs.
For what it's worth...
HM
I am not a bible basher
Im a Weak atheist with a panthiest view and I like Sikhism and honesty
Hows California these days? The Churches Fall?
Regards
Of course people don't read the bible, have you seen how big that bloody thing is? It would take forever to read the damn thing.
Just because you believe that it is the ONLY book that the creator of the universe has written, the book that he felt it so important that we get this information that he felt it necessary to provide us with it and it alone in the face of a complete lack of any other proof of his existence.
Its a good thing you don't as well, because then you would find out what a crock of shit the bible really is. What an evil vengeful child God is and how the four different perspectives on Jesus' life contradict each other incessantly.
Good thing you will never have to know that horrible truth and can therefore continue being a Christian with all the benefits such a socially acceptable religion brings.
Perhaps the holy joe, Christians should read the bible all the way through and then they might realise how mad they all are.
God is pictured as being nasty vengful and child like, your right I never thought of him/her or it before. He is playing games just like the gods of the greeks. He/she or it, knowing created a devil just to have a competitor. He then makes a human pregnant so us humans can have a sporting chance to go to heaven when our game piece is removed. He has been playing a Sim game for billions of years, with us poor mortals.
He states that he is the one and only God and there would no one other than him, then we the christians have proved he lies as now there's 3 gods (the original, Jesus and Mary).
Jesus stated that John the babtist was reincarnated and that causes a problem does heaven exist or do we take on another life. Its all so confusing. There is now three main religions all making bold statements that they are the favorites of god. I secretly believe the devil maybe behind that factor. I think that God maybe taking a break from the game as no one has seen him for over 2 or 3 thousand years. Proberly bored with it all. Yet in the Bible he was poping up everywhere.
Regards
Reading the Bible, the Holy Word of God is a really important thing in a believers life!
God can talk to us through the Bible and it is an edification to read the Bible! 
The bible was wrote by a bunch of lunitics of whom were deluded into thinking the voice in their mind was Gods. People in power realised that they could use this Religion to control the people.
Today they lock up lunitics in mental wards.
Read the Bible cover to cover properly with an open mind and you will be cured.
Best Regards
God is reported as saying
| Quote: |
| There is no other God other than me! (ten commandments) |
Yet through out the torah or the old testiment god is seen as fighting other god's
Within the New Testiment we then see a half god half human being born out of wedlock with God being the iligitimate father.
God created the devil of which was a big mistake and god of course does not make mistakes.
Read the bible thoroughly as it the cure for your illness caused by brainwashing.
Best Regards When Catholic priest are in training:
They are forbiden to read the Bible, why?
THEY MIGHT FIND OUT THE TRUTH!
Best Regards
Your objections are based on false premises.
| silkmesh wrote: |
God is reported as saying
| Quote: | | There is no other God other than me! (ten commandments) |
Yet through out the torah or the old testiment god is seen as fighting other god's |
That is not what God is reported as saying in the ten commandments. What he is reported as saying is: "I am the LORD thy God.... Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
You can choose to intepret that in two different ways, with varying degrees of success. You can believe there are (or were) other gods that were lesser gods. Or you can believe that he was using the word "gods" metaphorically.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| Within the New Testiment we then see a half god half human being born out of wedlock with God being the iligitimate father. |
First, there is no indication that Jesus was "half" god or human. It's entirely possible for him to be fully god and/or fully human.
Second, the phrases "out of wedlock" and "illegitimate" have no relevance. If God said it should happen, it couldn't be wrong, since he's the rulemaker.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| God created the devil of which was a big mistake and god of course does not make mistakes. |
Why would you assume that creating the devil was a mistake?
| silkmesh wrote: |
When Catholic priest are in training:
They are forbiden to read the Bible, why?
THEY MIGHT FIND OUT THE TRUTH! |
This has the stink of bullshit about it. What is the sense in that? If they're in seminary training, you'd think they'd already read it plenty enough. And once they leave, they're gonna read it all the time anyway. If there's anything dangerous they might find out, wouldn't it be better to get it out of the way before they have a congregation they can preach to?
Why don't you show some evidence that Catholic priests in training are forbidden to read the bible? So we can see that it's not just the usual anti-Catholic propoganda spread by ****** like Jack Chick. Indi your truly brainwashed
Read the bible properly from cover to cover!
Your answers prove that you have been brainwashed
Your answer on the devil was to present me with a question as you can not understand why god created the devil. Blind faith!!!!
You ask my to prove that Roman Catolic Priest are forbiden to read the bible in training. Its true just ask a Roman Catholic priest.
Your a desperate case, I feel very sorry for you as you are actual working for the devil.
Only the devil would take interest out of the true god, by introducing more gods such as Jesus of whom was only a man.
Sad sad sad, the devil is winning and the christian church is the gateway to hell.
Best Regards
Only the devil would make you think that you can be forgiven for your sins
Regards
| silkmesh wrote: |
Indi your truly brainwashed
Read the bible properly from cover to cover! |
Oh i have. In two languages, plus specific parts in two more.
But i'm curious as to why i am the one who needs to read the bible better. After all, i wasn't the one who misquoted it.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| Your answers prove that you have been brainwashed |
Yes, i must a slave to Christianity. The fact that i disagree with you is proof.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| Your answer on the devil was to present me with a question as you can not understand why god created the devil. Blind faith!!!! |
My question was not an answer, it was a question about your answer. What evidence do you have for claiming that God made a mistake in creating the devil? i mean, surely you must have some reason for making such a claim. Some reason other than blind faith, of course, since you rightfully point out what a poor reason that is.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| You ask my to prove that Roman Catolic Priest are forbiden to read the bible in training. Its true just ask a Roman Catholic priest. |
If i knew a Roman Catholic priest, i would have. Because i do not, instead i did a web search to see if i could find answers. i found nothing. So i tried asking you for evidence. You have provided me with nothing.
So, what i'm left with is a claim that sounds implausible on the face of it and absolutely no evidence to back it up - not even any evidence that you provided. What would any open-minded person be expected to do in such a situation, if not reject your claim?
| silkmesh wrote: |
| Your a desperate case, I feel very sorry for you as you are actual working for the devil. |
Yes, i am, actually. But government work pays so well.
Yes, folks. i (one of us, at least) work for the government. The Canadian government, no less. Dun dun dun!
| silkmesh wrote: |
Only the devil would take interest out of the true god, by introducing more gods such as Jesus of whom was only a man.
Sad sad sad, the devil is winning and the christian church is the gateway to hell. |
The Christian church invented hell. Seems only fair to me that they should be able to dictate who goes there and who does not.
Besides, technically according to the lion's share of Christian beliefs, the devil hasn't introduced any new gods at all - Jesus is just another aspect of the "one true god".
And at any rate, why reason is there to believe that all religions don't lead to the same truth? As a great man once said: "And though I am a committed Christian, I believe that everyone has the right to their own religion, be you Hindu, Jewish or Muslim. I believe there are infinite paths to accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour." (Stephen Tyrone Colbert at the 2006 White House Correspondents' Association Dinner)
| silkmesh wrote: |
| Only the devil would make you think that you can be forgiven for your sins |
Yes, that's the only thing it could possibly be.[/sarcasm] | silkmesh wrote: |
You ask my to prove that Roman Catolic Priest are forbiden to read the bible in training. Its true just ask a Roman Catholic priest.
|
The Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church states in Canon 252 (in the part about the Formation of Clerics):
| Quote: |
Can. 252 §1. Theological instruction is to be imparted in the light of faith and under the leadership of the magisterium in such a way that the students understand the entire Catholic doctrine grounded in divine revelation, gain nourishment for their own spiritual life, and are able properly to announce and safeguard it in the exercise of the ministry.
§2. Students are to be instructed in sacred scripture with special diligence in such a way that they acquire a comprehensive view of the whole of sacred scripture.
§3. There are to be classes in dogmatic theology, always grounded in the written word of God together with sacred tradition; through these, students are to learn to penetrate more intimately the mysteries of salvation, especially with St. Thomas as a teacher. There are also to be classes in moral and pastoral theology, canon law, liturgy, ecclesiastical history, and other auxiliary and special disciplines, according to the norm of the prescripts of the program of priestly formation.
|
For your information: the Code of Canon Law is
| Quote: |
the ecclesiastical law of the Roman Catholic Church, a fully developed legal system, with all the necessary elements: courts, lawyers, judges, a fully articulated legal code and principles of legal interpretation
|
It looks like you are misleaded by these 'priests' or you misunderstood them.
| Quote: |
Only the devil would take interest out of the true god, by introducing more gods such as Jesus of whom was only a man.
|
There are two major dogma's about the divinity of Christ:
1) Jesus was human, and therefore not a God or a demi-God
2) Jesus is God. This is the so-called Trinity:
| Quote: |
In Christianity, the doctrine of the Trinity states that God is one being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a mutual indwelling of three persons: the Father, the Son (incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth), and the Holy Spirit.
|
the Roman catholic church has for centuries condemned the bible societies and the distribution of the word of god, in fact, the bible used to be on their list of banned books. They feared that people would misinterpret the scripture and fall into heresy. However, the policy was changed late in the 20th century but they encourage their readers to overlay romanist doctrine upon the scripture rather than let it speak for itself.
Catholics are told to read the bible, but there is a slight difference. The are not to interpret the Bible. Only the Pope and the Bishops of the RCC magistrate. There are over 1700 laws, practices and traditions that catholics are to be obeyed - most are not Biblically sound.
I have spoken to at least 3 people of whom went to a semiary to become a priest and they had all became dis-enchanted due to the fact they were told not to read the bible, that the bible would be translated to them. This I have heard also from a catholic priest an army chaplin.
Things may of changed now in accordance with my first paragraphed above. But I truely believe if christians read the bible page by page they would change their views if they had an open mind.
God made a mistake by creating the devil? that is a fact that needs no proof what so ever. That is if there is a god or a devil.
Best Regards
| silkmesh wrote: |
| the Roman catholic church has for centuries condemned the bible societies and the distribution of the word of god, in fact, the bible used to be on their list of banned books. They feared that people would misinterpret the scripture and fall into heresy. However, the policy was changed late in the 20th century but they encourage their readers to overlay romanist doctrine upon the scripture rather than let it speak for itself. |
"Late in the 20th century"? i don't suppose you have any kind of source for that claim either, hm?
| silkmesh wrote: |
| Catholics are told to read the bible, but there is a slight difference. The are not to interpret the Bible. Only the Pope and the Bishops of the RCC magistrate. There are over 1700 laws, practices and traditions that catholics are to be obeyed - most are not Biblically sound. |
Catholics believe that the Pope is God's own agent on Earth, that when he issues an edict, it's God's own will. In other words, when the Pope says X, then as long as it doesn't directy contradict the bible - by the interpretation of the Roman Catholic Church - then he can say whatever the hell he wants. Your complaint seems to be little more than "i don't like what the Catholics believe because i don't believe what the Catholics believe". Suck it up, princess. Religious tolerance means tolerating other people's crazy-ass beliefs in exchange for them tolerating yours. You don't like Catholic beliefs? Don't practice Catholicism. But as long as Catholicism doesn't prevent you from believing what you want, you have no right to prevent the Catholics from believing whatever they want.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| I have spoken to at least 3 people of whom went to a semiary to become a priest and they had all became dis-enchanted due to the fact they were told not to read the bible, that the bible would be translated to them. This I have heard also from a catholic priest an army chaplin. |
i hope you're not intending for us to take any of that as evidence.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| Things may of changed now in accordance with my first paragraphed above. But I truely believe if christians read the bible page by page they would change their views if they had an open mind. |
So do i, but it doesn't really matter what you, or i, or anyone believes. You can't take two items of faith and say "this one is better than that one". There is only one way to compare two claims to determine which is more plausible: compare the evidence for both and see which the evidence best supports. But in the case of faith-based claims, that becomes meaningless, because evidence was never a factor there to begin with. You believe that bible study will turn Christians away from Christianity, the Bereans believe just the opposite. Who's right? There's no way to tell if the claims are just beleifs, which, ultimately, they are.
But i can point this much out. You have already provided evidence that you have not properly read the bible. Therefore, any claim you make on the contents of the bible and, by extension, how those contents will affect readers, is questionable. By contrast, we have the evidence of generations of various Christian sects that promote or demand continuous bible study - and they still exist. That alone doesn't prove either claim right, but it sure suggests strongly that yours is not.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| God made a mistake by creating the devil? that is a fact that needs no proof what so ever. That is if there is a god or a devil. |
Anytime someone claims that a fact needs no proof, it usually does.
You're making an impossible claim. You're saying this: God can't make mistakes / God made the devil / the devil is a mistake / therefore God made a mistake. That claim introduces a contradiction, which means that something must be wrong with it. All fine and good, but you haven't provided any rhyme or reason for assuming that the third premise is the one that's wrong. You have provided no evidence for any of the premises at all, but expect everyone to just swallow the the argument whole.You’re brainwashed
Your only proof is fictional, that being a bible wrote in accordance to the wishes of Constantine. None of the writers can be classified as eye witnesses.
Your religion is based on the Jewish religion of which is a mixture of folklore and some truth and of course magic. The God involved was originally the Jewish God of War.
Jesus Christ was depicted as being like Augustus of whom mother had a child out of wedlock of which was declared as the son of a god. He was born when Haley’s comet could be seen in the sky.
Jesus was born a bastard at a time when Roman Soldiers were raping women. (See the beginning of Barbarabus the film). He was attempting to change the Jewish faith into a less cruel one in to a civilized one with equality and peace.
A man can not be a God though many emperors and Kings have declared them so.
Your religion is just as pagan as the old Greeks, Roman, Chinese, and Indian and Egyptian ones.
READ THE BIBLE CORRECTLY AND NOT THE VERSES FROM THE NEW TESTMENT AND THOSE ONES FROM THE OLD THAT DO NOT CONTRODICT.
You’re truly brainwashed and I can not spend more time to save your soul, you’re already in the devils hand (Joke).
Actually it’s a sad comedy and there are many like you, this Christian thing as spread like a virus.
Best Regards
| silkmesh wrote: |
You’re brainwashed
Your only proof is fictional |
Actually (if you read Indi's other posts), he isn't brainwashed (at least in the sense you think he is), he is just enjoying tearing apart your logic...
| silkmesh wrote: |
| God made a mistake by creating the devil? that is a fact that needs no proof what so ever. That is if there is a god or a devil. |
Read Paradise Lost (not exactly canonized, but near enough ), in which Milton marvelously details why (he personally believed) God created Satan and why man had to fall.Well, I myselfe am reading the bible on a dayly basis, and can estimate that I will end it for the first time, by years end..After, I finish it for the first time, I plan to read it again, but I plan to read the jahovas witnes book, (It cant be called a bible, because it is a man inspired book). And I plan to read it as a side lecture, because my main lecture will be The lutheran german bible....Well,,but that will happen after I finish reading the NIV bible for the first time....I have met people who have read it 4 and even 7 times.
And, yes, I consider reading the whole bible a required condition to criticize or praise it. If you did not read it completely, then is not sane or intelligent to critizice it nor praise it.
Moreover:
I agree, with a post before, that states that reading the bible completely wont open your mind and deterred you from your way to God...It is totally the opposite, reading the whole bible, will open your mind and enable you to discover the one and true God, who came as a human and resurrected, whose Holy Spirit is among us. Three as one and one as three..a Holy Trinity
And I understand you guys, if you dont understand the Trinity. I myself tried once to explain a kid about water being solid,liquid and gas, and as hard as I tried. Kids wont understad how these three were one. They would understand liguids as liquids, solids as solids and gas as gas...The idea of those three being H2O, is just to much for them...They are kids...so is not about the bible and its so called contradictions, it is more about you and your lack of capability to understand God escense, but do not get discouraged...someday you will grow and if God permits you will understand...Cheersss
| Montressor wrote: |
| Actually (if you read Indi's other posts), he isn't brainwashed (at least in the sense you think he is), he is just enjoying tearing apart your logic... |
No no, by all means, i find his insistence of my being brainwashed by my religion fascinating. Although it's hardly new or surprising. When i present uncomfortable truths to Christians, they call me anti-Christian. When i present uncomfortable truths to anti-Christians, they call me Christian. Each group correctly identifies when the other group is doing it. Neither sees it in themselves. (And it's not just limited to Christianity. Anytime i present uncomfortable truths to group X, i become anti-group X, whether X is Christian, anti-Christian, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, conservative, liberal, or, most recently, Frihost moderators.)
| silkmesh wrote: |
| You’re brainwashed |
Yes, we covered that.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| Your only proof is fictional, that being a bible wrote in accordance to the wishes of Constantine. None of the writers can be classified as eye witnesses. |
The only time i have used the bible of proof of anything is when you have made claims about its content, at which point i used the bible to show you that you were wrong about the bible. The bible may or may not be fictional, but its contents are as real as any other real book's contents, and when you make a statement about what that book contains, it only makes sense to use that book's contents to prove your statement right or wrong.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| Your religion is based on the Jewish religion of which is a mixture of folklore and some truth and of course magic. The God involved was originally the Jewish God of War. |
So? Every religion is founded by malcontents. If they weren't malcontents they would have been happy with the religions that already existed. Even the first real atheists were originally the contrary ****** who looked at the tribal shaman and said "aw, that dude's just makin' shit up". There is no religion that is not at least slightly stained by human darkness.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| Jesus Christ was depicted as being like Augustus of whom mother had a child out of wedlock of which was declared as the son of a god. |
Yeah? i'd heard that Jesus was based on Mithras, and the dates seem to favour Mithras as the source of the fable over Augustus.
| silkmesh wrote: |
He was born when Haley’s comet could be seen in the sky.
Jesus was born a bastard at a time when Roman Soldiers were raping women. (See the beginning of Barbarabus the film). He was attempting to change the Jewish faith into a less cruel one in to a civilized one with equality and peace. |
You have amassed an impressive array of facts about Jesus's birth, and what his aims were. Where did you get them from, other than a movie?
| silkmesh wrote: |
| A man can not be a God though many emperors and Kings have declared them so. |
1.) Why not? Can't a god do anything? Why can't he be born and live like a man?
2.) How can you say for sure he was a man to begin with?
| silkmesh wrote: |
| Your religion is just as pagan as the old Greeks, Roman, Chinese, and Indian and Egyptian ones. |
Oh my religion is much, much more pagan than any of those. And much, much older.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| READ THE BIBLE CORRECTLY AND NOT THE VERSES FROM THE NEW TESTMENT AND THOSE ONES FROM THE OLD THAT DO NOT CONTRODICT. |
And which verses would those be? ^_^;
| silkmesh wrote: |
| You’re truly brainwashed and I can not spend more time to save your soul, you’re already in the devils hand (Joke). |
Funny.
| silkmesh wrote: |
| Actually it’s a sad comedy and there are many like you, this Christian thing as spread like a virus. |
Yes, one of the priests my religion, the great Richard Dawkins, would agree with you completely on that matter.
| hilander wrote: |
| And I understand you guys, if you dont understand the Trinity. I myself tried once to explain a kid about water being solid,liquid and gas, and as hard as I tried. Kids wont understad how these three were one. They would understand liguids as liquids, solids as solids and gas as gas...The idea of those three being H2O, is just to much for them...They are kids...so is not about the bible and its so called contradictions, it is more about you and your lack of capability to understand God escense, but do not get discouraged...someday you will grow and if God permits you will understand |
^_______^;
Man you just gotta love the "if you don't agree with me, then you're just too stupid to understand it" argument.Most mental patients do not realise they are mental unstable. It is similar to those that do not realise they are brainwashed.
Its very hard to explain to people who have been brainwashed into a religion, their ego is bloated as they really think that god is protecting them and looking after them and they are destined to go to heaven.
The brainwashing over thousands of years has been part of their culture itsd been inbedded since they have been born or been converted.
They belong to a cult and if there was a devil they have become his servants. The Romans made sure of that
Regards
hilander
Maybe you have and maybe you have not read the bible, how can i tell? If you were lying then you may think that god will forgive you.
Most Christians Lie
Regards
| silkmesh wrote: |
| You’re brainwashed |
Yeah! Clean brain!
| Quote: |
| Your only proof is fictional, that being a bible wrote in accordance to the wishes of Constantine. None of the writers can be classified as eye witnesses. |
Actually, um, ah...No. Yes. Sort of. Constantine may have forced the Church to establish a canon, but he hand in it past that.
| Quote: |
| Your religion is based on the Jewish religion of which is a mixture of folklore and some truth and of course magic. The God involved was originally the Jewish God of War. |
Could I get a source for this? The closest I've been able to find is that it's derivate from Yahu, a god of rivers and seas.
| Quote: |
| Jesus Christ was depicted as being like Augustus of whom mother had a child out of wedlock of which was declared as the son of a god. He was born when Haley’s comet could be seen in the sky. |
Again, sources?
| Quote: |
| READ THE BIBLE CORRECTLY AND NOT THE VERSES FROM THE NEW TESTMENT AND THOSE ONES FROM THE OLD THAT DO NOT CONTRODICT. |
There is no contradiction if you accept Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God, and therefore able to change the Word of God.
| Quote: |
| Actually it’s a sad comedy and there are many like you, this Christian thing as spread like a virus. |
Indi? A Christian? Heh; you obviously don't read for comprehension...
Side Note: If Indi and I are agreeing that someone is full of it, I would seriously start debating whether or not that person is full of it...
HM | Indi wrote: |
| most recently, Frihost moderators |
Yes, I've noted that thread, but chose to not post my feelings and comments on the behavior of those involved because it would be inapropriate for me to do so. That is to say that my comments themselves wouldn't be of inapropriate content or overly offensive, but that my interjecting them into what should have been a private conversation wouldn't be beneficial.
Back to the subject at hand, as far a online bibles go, I prefer Bible Gateway (biblegateway.com), which is a free searchable online resource with many languages and versions and you don't have to download or install anything. | silkmesh wrote: |
Most Christians do not read the Bible, this is a fact.
If you are Christian and do not have a Bible, and have not read it from cover to cover there is
a set of Bibles on line: http://www.onlinebible.org/
Then it maybe a good idea to read some bible Contadictions http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/
by David Morgan of whom has done honest research.
I have included this article as I am fed up with so called people with so called religious understanding making remarks when they have not thoroughly read their religious book/s
Hope that this is of some help
Regards
Bob [/url] |
but what you mean about "Christian"? some people get their religious from generation but they don't believe in God and so. if we can call them Christian? or who get baptize in childhood but now also don't care about religion if they are Christian ? i think at first we need to understand what real Christian means and then we get if they read Bible or not...One thing at a time:
A:
For your information Yahu is not correct no wonder you couldn’t find a reference: Your telling me I dont know nothing about the Bible? Your crazy man.
Information on the name:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh
The God of War:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/gospel_john.html
There is an argument about that amongst theologians I know but:
Did you know:
The bible does not state that the God of Abraham is the only god, only that his contract with Abraham and his children is an exclusive one. "You shall have no other god but me" not "There is no other god than me". The plague scene in Egypt is similar, it's not that Pharaoh's magicians cannot draw on the power of a god, only that Moses draws on a more powerful one.
Gods, Gods and more Gods, Magic and shoulders to lean on.
Regards B.
The facts on Augustus can be found in the British Library were I originally did my research for my book. My notes are still in UK at present.
But if you search the internet you will find sites that referer that the birth of Augustus was similar to that of Jesus and in the time of Jesus that was top of the gossip list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_God
Also good reading on that page is:
Human or part-human offspring of deities are very common in other religions and mythologies. A great many pantheons also included genealogies in which various gods were descended from other gods, and so the term "son of a god" may be applied to many actual deities as well.
Ancient mythology contains many characters with both a human parent and god parent. This includes Hercules whose father was Zeus and Virgil's Aeneas whose mother is Venus.
In the Greek and Roman cultures in which early Christianity arose, the concepts of a son or a daughter of god, halfgods as Perseus was, where commonly known and accepted. Also was the idea of Jesus as a fully God and fully human-son of God-as described by the Apostle Paul.
In the Rastafari movement it is Haile Selassie who is considered to be God the Son, as a part of the Holy Trinity. He himself never accepted the idea officially.
In the Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the earliest recorded legends of humanity, Gilgamesh claimed to be of both human and divine descent.
In Hindu mythology, gods often took human form; most often, it was the god Vishnu who incarnated as a great ruler or teacher such as Krishna. For example in the Ramayana, Rama is said to be half god. His next younger brother is one-fourth god, the next is one-eighth, and so on. (In this way, all of the brothers together could never be one hundred per cent God no matter how many brothers there were.)
Well! Well! Well! its not only the Christian that have a human son of gods I say they are copy cats.
Regards | silkmesh wrote: |
For your information Yahu is not correct no wonder you couldn’t find a reference: Your telling me I dont know nothing about the Bible? Your crazy man. |
1) I'm really starting to debate your biblical knowledge, so I think that's a fair assumption.
2) What do you mean, my crazy man? I have a crazy woman, but no crazy man...
Actually, that was where I got the info on Yahu (god of rivers and seas); in fact, that origin is said to have "considerable currency"...
Actually, it only mentions it in passing, and is unsourced. Do you have an alternate source? And one that I don't laugh at halfway through? The page you sent me to was...interesting.
| Quote: |
| The bible does not state that the God of Abraham is the only god, only that his contract with Abraham and his children is an exclusive one. "You shall have no other god but me" not "There is no other god than me". The plague scene in Egypt is similar, it's not that Pharaoh's magicians cannot draw on the power of a god, only that Moses draws on a more powerful one. |
Old news. It also mentions some Babylonian deities, and Baal is a common reference.
HMMore on Augustus
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classic/wilson/coin/ric206.htm
The coin shows haley’s comet which was present at the time of Augustus birth,
The denarius of Augustus was a coin which bore on its obverse a laureated head or bust
of the emperor along with the inscription CAESAR AVGVSTVS DIVI F PATER PATRIAE (=
Caesar Augustus, Divi Filius, Pater Patriae, `Caesar Augustus, Son of God, Father of
His Country'), and on the reverse a depiction of the imperial princes, Gaius and
Lucius, each with a spear in his hand, which was set on a background of crossed
spears, with a star representing heavenly sanction, an image of the stipulum, the
ladle employed by Roman priests in their libations, and the litius of the augurate
together with the inscription PRINCIPES IUVENTUTIS (`Leaders of Youth') also adorning
the depiction. The denarius of Tiberius was a coin which on its obverse bore both the
legend TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVSTVS (= Tiberius Caesar Divi Augusti Filius Augustus,
`Tiberius Caesar, Son of the Divine Augustus, Augustus!') as well as an image of
Tiberius laureate, and on its reverse side a depiction of a seated lady (perhaps
Livia) as Pax with a palm(?) branch in her left hand and an inverted spear in her
right, and the inscription PONTIF MAXIM (= Pontifex Maximus, `High Priest' i.e., of
the Roman State) referring to Tiberius.
Good reading this guy has abstracted similar items as I did in London
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/religious_studies/SBL2003/Harrison.htm
Regards 1)
So...where's the comet? You have two symbols of rank (a ladle and a curved staff or trumpet) and a pair of guys on one side, a bust on the other. Are you even reading the information you're reading?
2) Half-Deities: So...why is Christianity a copy-cat and the others not? Personally, of course, I think that they copied the Phantom Menace, which has just as much scholarship as you are showing...
HM oleszka stated
| Quote: |
| but what you mean about "Christian"? some people get their religious from generation but they don't believe in God and so. if we can call them Christian? or who get baptize in childhood but now also don't care about religion if they are Christian ? i think at first we need to understand what real Christian means and then we get if they read Bible or not... |
I wonder what hard nosed Christians think of that, I expect they will say because these people call them selves Christian god will take them into his fold any way.
Note: They should not call them selves Christians really it would be a false statement and its not a Christian thing to do, it would be lying (Joke)?
However most Christians lie as they think that Jesus will forgive them?
Best Regards | silkmesh wrote: |
oleszka stated
| Quote: | | but what you mean about "Christian"? some people get their religious from generation but they don't believe in God and so. if we can call them Christian? or who get baptize in childhood but now also don't care about religion if they are Christian ? i think at first we need to understand what real Christian means and then we get if they read Bible or not... |
The necessity for reading The Bible is pretty much a given. Past that...it's pretty much up to you... |
| Quote: |
| I wonder what hard nosed Christians think of that, I expect they will say because these people call them selves Christian god will take them into his fold any way. |
He isn't really picky...
| Quote: |
| Note: They should not call them selves Christians really it would be a false statement and its not a Christian thing to do, it would be lying (Joke)? |
Depends on whether or not you believe that you need a deity in order to follow the philosophy or not. There are some groups that do follow just the philosophy, and either place the deity in a position where He doesn't interfere with what goes on (such as the Deists), and others just ignore Him completely...
| Quote: |
| However most Christians lie as they think that Jesus will forgive them? |
Well, it has sorta been suggested that he might...
HMJust for interest sake:
The reference to Augustas being born when Halley’s comet visited could be wrong as there would be an error of 3 years. However it could be an error at the start of the present calander.
Augustus was said to be born September 23, 63 BC and died in August 19, AD 14),
However Earliest record of Halley's Comet was in 66 BC.
Ther theory that Halley’s comet visited the date of Jesus birth could possibly be false as the next visit of halleys comet was in 10 AD. Un less Jesus was born in 66 BC.
Both Jesus and Augustus could have been born the same year. That means that the present calendar should of started in the year 66 BC.
Best Regards
Its suposed to be above the V between the spear and the what ever. But it is mentioned to be on that coin and other coins somewhere in a publication on roman history. I cant remember of hand, but I will find it and I will let you know. We can not find all the evidence on ever matter on the web it takes time and the correct keywords for the search.
When I quote something like that I have read about the subject. But I have read so much, my notes are halfway around the world.
The main point is that Augustus was declare as a son of a god.
Regards
Allow me to just give another point of view, instead of swaying from the topic "christians dont read the bible".
------ I agree, most christians dont read the bible, and that does not mean they are not entering heaven. I am reading the bible in a discipline way. I ve read the whole new testament, and right now I am in chapter 119 of Psalms. I estimate that I will end it by years end, God willing. And I have proof of my readings, I take notes of my daily readings. That means that I have a lot of notebooks..which I could show anyone that wants proof of my readings...
I ve noticed some people are trying to depict Christiany as a cult of brainwashed followers based on the idea that Christiany origin is the same as other pagan religions...
1) Well, if origin is an issue for you guys, then christianity is not your main problem...Physics can mesure the efect of gravity, but can gravity be seen ?? Nobody has seen gravity, if they dont see gravity, they dont see its origin..They, have theories about its origins and matter..THEORIES...but, that seems not to be an issue at all..why ?
2) Because for some people more important than the origin is the effect of it..This can lead to a conclusion..Certain unseen origins can be considered as truth if the effects are proved....
3) I could begin explaining about computers, chips, transistors, CRTs, electricity, voltage, and atoms...And guess what? All this things were done without knowing the origin of electriciy, which is the atom, which nobody had seen..Just some years ago, a laboratory came to do a computer animated picture of the outer shell of an atom....So, it seems out that origin is not an issue for most scientists,,What is MORE important for them are the effects of it..Forces they can mesure..The consecuences of the origin they can not see. They dont even bother obout the atom, as long as their phisics laws work well..
4 ) The effects of a matter that can not be seen...The consecuences of that matter which can be seen or tested....Well, it seems that consecuences are of much more use than the matter itself...And here comes christianity...everywhere were christiany spreads like a virus..the consecuences can be messured. And those are mainly good consecuences, and you could asume that its origin is truth.
*ahem*
Indi and I saw the following comment in this thread a while ago, and we both chuckled at it. But we decided that it was such an easy target that it would almost be petty of us to say something. We figured that somone else would pick it up and comment on it. Besides, we were really kinda enjoyin being brainwashed Christians. ^_^
Sadly tho, no one picked up on it - not even after we pointed it out! Not even after it was repeated!
So maybe it's a little petty, but what the hell. And maybe this means that we don't get to be brainwashed Christians anymore (I *so* wanted a pope mobile! >.<). Oh well.
Start with a person who presumably considers themself a Christian, but admits that they haven't read the bible completely:
| hilander wrote: |
| Well, I myselfe am reading the bible on a dayly basis, and can estimate that I will end it for the first time, by years end..After, I finish it for the first time, I plan to read it again, but I plan to read the jahovas witnes book, (It cant be called a bible, because it is a man inspired book). And I plan to read it as a side lecture, because my main lecture will be The lutheran german bible....Well,,but that will happen after I finish reading the NIV bible for the first time....I have met people who have read it 4 and even 7 times. |
... admits it... twice...:
| hilander wrote: |
Allow me to just give another point of view, instead of swaying from the topic "christians dont read the bible".
------ I agree, most christians dont read the bible, and that does not mean they are not entering heaven. I am reading the bible in a discipline way. I ve read the whole new testament, and right now I am in chapter 119 of Psalms. I estimate that I will end it by years end, God willing. And I have proof of my readings, I take notes of my daily readings. That means that I have a lot of notebooks..which I could show anyone that wants proof of my readings... |
Once again, this person presumably calls themself a Christian, but has not yet read the sacred text upon which the entire religion is fundamentally based. Sadly, no one questioned any of this. Doesn't anyone else see a problem with this?
But let's not stop there! ^_^
Now, this person is smart enough to realize that because they haven't read the bible, they can't comment on it:
| hilander wrote: |
| And, yes, I consider reading the whole bible a required condition to criticize or praise it. If you did not read it completely, then is not sane or intelligent to critizice it nor praise it. |
Good for you!
However ^_^
In the *very next post*!:
| hilander wrote: |
Moreover:
I agree, with a post before, that states that reading the bible completely wont open your mind and deterred you from your way to God...It is totally the opposite, reading the whole bible, will open your mind and enable you to discover the one and true God, who came as a human and resurrected, whose Holy Spirit is among us. Three as one and one as three..a Holy Trinity
And I understand you guys, if you dont understand the Trinity. I myself tried once to explain a kid about water being solid,liquid and gas, and as hard as I tried. Kids wont understad how these three were one. They would understand liguids as liquids, solids as solids and gas as gas...The idea of those three being H2O, is just to much for them...They are kids...so is not about the bible and its so called contradictions, it is more about you and your lack of capability to understand God escense, but do not get discouraged...someday you will grow and if God permits you will understand...Cheersss |
Now we get this person - who has admitted to not reading the bible - lecturing us about the trinity. Not only that, but implying that we lack the intellectucal capacity for "understanding" the trinity. (Ignore for now the ironic fact that the trinity is not mentioned once in the entire bible. Like I said, responding to this was just too easy. ^_^ We gotta make it just a little bit hard, eh? Also ignore the really weird monologue on origins and things that can't be seen, because that's not even a challenge to take down.)
I'm totally disappointed with you all for letting this schmuck pass through with all that rampant hypocrisy without even givin him a slap on the wrist. Shame shame. ^_^
Hey, for the record, I *have* read the bible - in two languages and parts of it in more than one translation (in each language). So has Indi - he's read it all the way through in English, like 4 different translations, plus bits in French, Greek and even parts in Hebrew. That must be how we both ended up brainwashed. | Indi wrote: |
*ahem*
Indi and I saw the following comment
|
| Indi wrote: |
Hey, for the record, I *have* read the bible - in two languages and parts of it in more than one translation (in each language). So has Indi - he's read it all the way through in English, like 4 different translations, plus bits in French, Greek and even parts in Hebrew. That must be how we both ended up brainwashed. |
Uhm 
If you're not Indi, then who are you? 
you have your point indi,,I did not read the bible completely,,but I have proof, of every single chapter I ve read..until now..I have read most of it...By years end I will have notes on every single chapter of the whole bible...God willing.
On the other hand,,Your word is your only proof of your readings. I dont think you are lying, nor I am saying that you are a lyier. What I am only saying is that I have proof of my readings....and you seem not to...
Because I did not read it completely, I did not criticize it, nor put its origin in doubt...And as you noticed, In this forums a LOT OF PEOPLE goes around saying that the bible is a very old tale and that is not the truth. And GUESS what??? These people did not read the bible completely ˇˇˇˇ...
You have your point again,,yes I did not read it completely yet...And that is why I dont even dare to put in doubt its origin, nor criticize it..
About the origin monologue....You just proofed that nobody seems to consider an issue the origin of a force or consecuence..Everybody considers more important the force or consecuences...You are just like everybody..and that is no sin...
| hilander wrote: |
| These people did not read the bible completely ˇˇˇˇ... |
Actually, a lot of atheists have read The Bible. Admittedly, a lot of it is for the sake of disproving it, but they have nonetheless read it. And I would trust Indi re: having read it (even if I would doubt the interpretation)...
HM | MrBlueSky wrote: |
Uhm If you're not Indi, then who are you?
|
I am the terror that flaps in the night! I am the scourge of hypocrisy on the Internet air waves! I am someone who knows Indi's FriHost password! I am ANNA! PH34R M3! ^_^
| hilander wrote: |
you have your point indi,,I did not read the bible completely,,but I have proof, of every single chapter I ve read..until now..I have read most of it...By years end I will have notes on every single chapter of the whole bible...God willing.
On the other hand,,Your word is your only proof of your readings. I dont think you are lying, nor I am saying that you are a lyier. What I am only saying is that I have proof of my readings....and you seem not to... |
Good for you! I'm really proud of you for bein so ana- er dilligent.
But, uh, why do I need to give proof that I've read the bible? I'm not the one using it to guide my behaviour, my thinking or my entire life. You are a Christian, oui? Does that not mean that you have decided to follow the teachings of Jesus, and believe in the Abrahamic God? Don't that it was a little premature to make that decision before you've read the only Earthly sources of information about either?
Me? Who cares whether I've read the bible or not? It's just another story book to me - although probly the weirdest one I ever read. It don't affect my life at all. I don't use it to guide my thinking. So even if I didn't read it... who cares?
| hilander wrote: |
Because I did not read it completely, I did not criticize it, nor put its origin in doubt...And as you noticed, In this forums a LOT OF PEOPLE goes around saying that the bible is a very old tale and that is not the truth. And GUESS what??? These people did not read the bible completely ˇˇˇˇ...
You have your point again,,yes I did not read it completely yet...And that is why I dont even dare to put in doubt its origin, nor criticize it..
About the origin monologue....You just proofed that nobody seems to consider an issue the origin of a force or consecuence..Everybody considers more important the force or consecuences...You are just like everybody..and that is no sin... |
No, no one considered your monologue because it was dead wrong. ^_^; I mean come on: "I could begin explaining about computers, chips, transistors, CRTs, electricity, voltage, and atoms...And guess what? All this things were done without knowing the origin of electriciy, which is the atom, which nobody had seen." That's gotta be the stupidest thing I've read in ages. People had been theorizing about atoms since the 5th century BCE, and it was pretty much solid science by the beginning of the 19th century. The electron was discovered in 1897, and theorized for decades before that. Computers, chips, transistors, even CRTs came after that. And electricity and voltage, you don't need to know about electrons to know that those exist. Put on some socks and drag your feet on the carpet on a dry day and you'll finf out about electricity and voltage pretty quick.
And then there's this ^_^: "Nobody has seen gravity". Hahahaha ^_^; No, I change my mind. THAT's gotta be the stupidest thing I've read in ages.
The whole monologue is nonsensical. You don't need to know about the origin of something to know that it exists, or to use it. You also don't usually need to know about the origin of a story to know that it's fiction, or where a claim came from to know that it's bullshit.
And even more funny is the fact that it all came from someone who presumably believes in a god, without anyone ever having seen this god, or any conclusive evidence for it, or even the slightest clue of the origin of this god. Hypocrisy ahoy! ^_^
| HereticMonkey wrote: |
| Actually, a lot of atheists have read The Bible. Admittedly, a lot of it is for the sake of disproving it, but they have nonetheless read it. And I would trust Indi re: having read it (even if I would doubt the interpretation)... |
Amen to that brother! ^_^
| Ellen Johnson, President of American Atheists wrote: |
| American Atheists has always encouraged the public to read both the Old and New Testaments from cover to cover. Many people have become atheists after reading the Bible. |
| Indi wrote: |
Me? Who cares whether I've read the bible or not?
|
Indeed, if it matters so much to this fellow what an atheist knows, perhaps we should give *him* a quiz?! 
1) Why did Nehemiah weep?
2) How did Judas Iscariot become possessed?
3) What did Balaam smote?
| Indi wrote: |
It's just another story book to me - although probly the weirdest one I ever read. It don't affect my life at all. I don't use it to guide my thinking. So even if I didn't read it... who cares?
|
The NT isn't so weird (except Revelations), it is just boring because these dudes weren't writers. They were street preachers constantly running for their lives’ which doesn't give much time to work on writing style. Also early on when it so quickly transitioned into a religion of the poor and under trodden, at least for a time during the early Apostolic period this unavoidably means that their audience became the least educated members of society, which does not bode well for capturing the attention of a highly educated audience. I think it makes mind numbingly boring reading, but outside of Jesus possessing Judas with the devil, I don’t see anything all that weird in the NT.
Now the OT has some twisted and deranged stuff in it and I don’t think that most Christians can make heads or tails of it because it is so heavily enmeshed in a much broader cultural context that 99% of Christians know absolutely nothing what-so-ever about. You have some Jewish ancestry don’t you Indi? If you add the Talmud to the OT suddenly it makes a WHOLE lot more sense and is actually quite profound. In fact, I would compare Judaism to Taoism, the religion that turned me back to theism. | Indi wrote: |
| Ellen Johnson, President of American Atheists wrote: | | American Atheists has always encouraged the public to read both the Old and New Testaments from cover to cover. Many people have become atheists after reading the Bible. |
|
That is the same kind of reasoning that produces Creationism too. If you have absolutely no idea what you are looking at and suddenly take a gander with no preparation, teacher or mentor, then naturally you are going to think it looks like a bunch of crap.
When people don't understand something they are quick to assume that they have not misunderstood at all, and that the misunderstood something just doesn't make any sense at all and should be thrown out wholesale.Indi wrote:
| Quote: |
| People had been theorizing about atoms since the 5th century BCE, and it was pretty much solid science by the beginning of the 19th century. The electron was discovered in 1897, and theorized for decades before that. |
Indi uses the word Theorie twice like it is hard proof, solid truth, while we all know that a theorie is just a possible explanation of a real happening..
About the discovery of the electron in 1897, if it is discovered, how come we dont have a picture of it...Well, I once read,,that it is imposible to have a pic of it..We have pics of lightings and sparks, but those are suppoused to be electrons, a whole lot of electrons...To make it simple...is like we can have pics of the river,,but we still cant have pics of H2O wich is the component of the river....But, that is no issue for everyone,,since we have learn how to use the river for our benefit...Same with the holy book,,its origins are no issue at all,,because its consecuences are good, so you asume its origin is good and true....... | hilander wrote: |
Indi wrote:
| Quote: | | People had been theorizing about atoms since the 5th century BCE, and it was pretty much solid science by the beginning of the 19th century. The electron was discovered in 1897, and theorized for decades before that. |
Indi uses the word Theorie twice like it is hard proof, solid truth, while we all know that a theorie is just a possible explanation of a real happening..
|
Indi uses the word theory in the correct scientific manner - by which definition a theory is much more than a possible explanation (that would be a hypothesis). | hilander wrote: |
Indi uses the word Theorie twice like it is hard proof, solid truth, while we all know that a theorie is just a possible explanation of a real happening.. |
It's usually not just a "possibility"; it's usually right on the mark.
| Quote: |
| Same with the holy book,,its origins are no issue at all,,because its consecuences are good, so you asume its origin is good and true....... |
Sorry, but even I dislike pumping something like it's the Second Coming
...Even someone like me, who has been defending the Good Book, tends to be a bit nervous when you say that it's origin is "good and true"...especially with that much bloodshed...
HMok,,Agreed, a theorie is not a hypothesis.
And I will go further..It is not hard truth either..
Nevertheless, it is not relevant for our daily life...When, I turn on a light, I dont care if I can see or not an electron...I am enjoying artificial light..Therefore, an electron might be truth...
| hilander wrote: |
ok,,Agreed, a theorie is not a hypothesis.
And I will go further..It is not hard truth either.. |
It is a statement of fact that has never been contradicted, and there is no conceivable way that it might ever be contradicted. The only thing that makes a scientific theory different from the truth is that no one can ever know the truth because we are not omniscient.
| hilander wrote: |
| When, I turn on a light, I dont care if I can see or not an electron... |
Yes, but you're not in the business of making light bulbs or supplying electricity. Just because you don't care whether or not electrons exist does not make it an empty question. Whether electrons exist or not is hella important to anyone who works with electricity and electronics.
By analogy, if you are using the bible to guide your life you better damn well care where it came from. ^_^; i may not care because it's just a crappy old story book to me - it's not influencing my life (although i have researched because it does influence my life, by way of people who are guided by it trying to take away my freedoms). But if your entire life is going to be based on the teachings of this book, yes, you really should care about where it came from.
You claim you don't need to know "because its consecuences are good". Yeah? This is the book that started the Crusades. The Inquisitions. Burning "witches". Anti-semitism. And lots more goodies. The consequences of the bible have most certainly not been uniformly good.
And even if they were, consequences are not good enough. Suppose a very good person was dying from a failing heart. All of a sudden, a donor heart comes up, and its given to him, and he lives and goes on to do good. Good consequences. Only... the heart came from another person that was murdered in order to get a donor heart for the first person. Bad origin.
Good consequences do not imply good origin. | hilander wrote: |
ok,,Agreed, a theorie is not a hypothesis.
And I will go further..It is not hard truth either.. |
LOL...why is this point so difficult to get across I wonder....1 more try...
1) There are no hard facts in the sense you mean...NONE not a single solitary one. Everything we know is theory (apart from religious conviction which is in a different category and cannot be rationally and critically examined in the same way.
2) All the things that you THINK are facts are either theories or worse, hypothesis. Gravity is a theory, electromagnetism is a theory, your own existence as a physical entity is a theory.
3) Induction basically means that nothing can ever be proven to be a 'fact' since the only way we can try to do that is by repeatedly observing something and after a while saying - 'well, it's happened a billion times now so it must be a fact'. That is fundamentally flawed logic. No matter how many times it happens it can NEVER be a fact - just because something has happened a billion, a trillion, a googleplex of times, it could still possibly NOT happen next time and there is no way, in logic, science or any other system of human thought, in which you can change this fundamental problem (called the problem of Induction).
4) The best solution we have is to come at it from the other direction and try to prove theories wrong. That is very possible and easy to do. One observation which contradicts the theory means it is false and can be discarded. THAT is how the whole of science works and has worked for most of the last century. These notions of 'solid facts' are illusions and fantasies built on a misunderstanding of the nature of reality and continued by weak thinking and inability to face certain fundamental limitations.
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| Nevertheless, it is not relevant for our daily life...When, I turn on a light, I dont care if I can see or not an electron...I am enjoying artificial light..Therefore, an electron might be truth... |
5) An electron is a quantum 'particle' which exists and doesn't exist at the same time, can be in two places or no place at the same time, can alter the behaviour of other quantum particles instantaneously but not in a way which we can use, exists as a wave and a particle and everything in between at the same time....you want to base a system of truth on this?
5a) On second thoughts, yes, that is a sound idea, but your truth will have to encompass a much broader view of reality than most people are either willing or capable of doing. You will have to understand the quantum world in which your truth lives. You will have to understand the nature of probability and uncertainty and lots more besides if you want to understand the truth contained in your electron. | Quote: |
| You claim you don't need to know "because its consequence are good". Yeah? This is the book that started the Crusades. The Inquisitions. Burning "witches". antisemitism. And lots more goodies. The consequences of the bible have most certainly not been uniformly good. |
All, these happened, because in those times, people did not have the chance to read the bible..It is not the bible which started the wars. Humans started it, Humans that took advantage of people who did not read the bible completely..and therefore easily convinced and deceived..Even nowadays, there are still religions that claim to be bible based, but don't encourage to read it completely. So guess what happens??
....Because believers did not read it completely, believers are deceived to not accept blood donations, or to accept death penalties as bible based, or to accept divorces as bible based, or to accept revenge as bible based, etc....Well,,all of this deceivings happen because these religions don't encourage to read the bible completely...Therefore,,believers are easily deceived.....
| hilander wrote: |
| Quote: | | You claim you don't need to know "because its consequence are good". Yeah? This is the book that started the Crusades. The Inquisitions. Burning "witches". antisemitism. And lots more goodies. The consequences of the bible have most certainly not been uniformly good. |
All, these happened, because in those times, people did not have the chance to read the bible..It is not the bible which started the wars. Humans started it, Humans that took advantage of people who did not read the bible completely..and therefore easily convinced and deceived.. |
Riiiiiiight.
The average schmuck who took up arms in the Crusades probably hadn't read the bible... but the Pope didn't? He's the one who started the Crusades, remember?
The average schmuck who was questioned in the various Inquisitions probably hadn't read the bible... but the various clerics doing the questioning didn't? The people who started the various Inquisitions hadn't read the bible?
Cotton Freakin Mather didn't read the bible?
Get real. You may not have read the bible, but most of those people could probably recite it from memory. Most of them spent their entire lives studying it inside out and backwards. Mather had an honourary doctorate of divinity for goodness' sake, and yet he was all a-ok with torturing people and burning "witches".
(And, by the way, the bible doesn't support the death penalty? The bible requires the death penalty. The bible happily tells the tale of a person who was executed... for picking up sticks. i'm going to guess that you're going to argue that the story of the attempted stoning of the slut in John means Jesus is against capital punishment. Try reading it a bit more carefully. That is one of the most ethically and morally bizarre of all the stories of Jesus, if you actually read it and don't just swallow the standard Sunday School version.)yup, i admit this fact. its just that it is the dominant religion nowadays. its easy to be a christian by name but its hard to be a true CHRISTian. reading the bible is a requirement, the only way to know the truth. well, to think oppositely, this is our job, our mission, to encourage those Christians to read the bible. The Bible is God's "Love Letter" to mankind and is "The Word of God". Jesus is "the Word made flesh". The Bible tells us of our need for a Saviour and Jesus, as the Word is our means to receive salvation.
It is amazing how such a simple concept is considered so difficult by many people. But God speaks to us today through His Word and a careful study of the Bible, fellowship with other Christian in a good Bible believing church and prayer is the solution!!
joyfulheart
I thought I was alone in this forum,,but merciful rain is falling, and our ears delight in the sound of it falling to the earth, and watering this parched land...Yess,,I think bible is a love letter, preserved by the blood of a lot of people who died protecting it...written by the hand of humans, who where inspired by God...If you don't understand this,,it is because you did not read it completely...Come on,,If I where to die in a year,,one of my goals, before dying would be to finish my reading of the bible...Cheersss
| silkmesh wrote: |
| What do I care? I just want interesting input other than the normal boring trash. |
If you regard petty controversies and stupid discussions as interesting, that is.
Although I'm glad to see that some replies to this topic are actually the opposite Unfortunately, Satan can probably quote the Bible word for word. And he sure isn't going to heaven!!!
There is much more to it than just "reading the Bible". Without the power of the Holy Spirit, we can't understand it. We can read it over and over and over again untill we die and without His help, it is just words and more words.
Some of the most "intelligent" people can't make heads or tails out of God's word but the least educated understand it because of the HS's work. A lot of unbelievers claim to have read the Bible multiple times. Unfortunately, it is a WASTE of time because without God's help, they are just reading words. (Remember Satan's being able to quote the Bible word for word, inside and out).
That is one reason it is so important to attend a good Bible believing church! Hearing the Word preached and studying with others in Bible Class is such a help in understanding the Bible. I was raised in one denomination but now attend another because they teach the Word so much more in depth than the first.
If you really want to give God's Word a chance, SINCERELY ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the truth. Start to attend a good church (don't just pick one out of a phone book...research, research, research...and ask God to guide you to the right one).
OR, write me and I will try and answer your questions!!!! No big words here or deep theological discussions here.
joyfulheart Silkmesh, I have to say that this topic has been entertaining, to say the least. You start with a very true statement then go so far into left field with the rest of your comments.
I don't know a lot about the Catholic beliefs, so I won't comment on them. I do know about mine and why I believe the way I do. For starters, I'm not brainwashed. I have read the bible and believe what it says. I do believe that it's God's words to us.
There are 5 P's to help understand the bible.
1. Person - who wrote the book.
2. Place - where it was written.
3. Period - what time frame it was written in.