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Paraphilia





Bannik
Here is a topic for you

Is paedophilia wrong?
Now here me out, a couple of days ago I and a buddy of mine got into a debate about sexual orientation.
Basically the argument started out with homosexuality, whether it is wrong or not, we concluded legally and biologically it is alright, it’s a sexual orientation, you prefer apple pie I prefer blackcurrant etc…. but it lead us to the point of paedophilia (newspaper on the floor had paedophilia as a headline).
Because homosexuality is considered OK by most of society then why is not paedophilia I mean is it not the same thing as sexual orientation?

Now let’s create a scenario
Let’s say there is an older man 30
Let’s say there is a young girl 14

Legally it is wrong for them to be together (half the age man)

But let’s ignore legality for a moment (was it not wrong for homosexuality to exist not so long ago)

Firstly the arguments raised suggest the child is not physically developed, thing is we disputed that in terms of child birth, at the age of 14 a child is able to have kids, her period began etc….so physically we concluded that there is no reason why mother nature has allowed her to bear children and not allow sex at that age.

Then we move to mentally, if mentally the child is unprepared and does not understand the concept of sex, love, family, and children. But children these days or should I say teenagers have a full understanding of love, family and sex…. Kids today go too university and complete degrees at the age of 10 and above…. I mean if you are saying that the child can understand the theory of relativity and yet fail to understand sex and its consequences then we have very contradictive ways of thinking.

So lets say this, lets say the child understand sex and its consequences, the child is in love with the older man, they have both consented, is it wrong for them to be together?

If the answer is no, then the laws of paedophilia should be redone.
If the answer is yes it is wrong then same should apply for homosexuality.
Bikerman
Bannik wrote:
Here is a topic for you

Is paedophilia wrong?
Now here me out, a couple of days ago I and a buddy of mine got into a debate about sexual orientation.
Basically the argument started out with homosexuality, whether it is wrong or not, we concluded legally and biologically it is alright, it’s a sexual orientation, you prefer apple pie I prefer blackcurrant etc…. but it lead us to the point of paedophilia (newspaper on the floor had paedophilia as a headline).
Because homosexuality is considered OK by most of society then why is not paedophilia I mean is it not the same thing as sexual orientation?

Now let’s create a scenario
Let’s say there is an older man 30
Let’s say there is a young girl 14

Legally it is wrong for them to be together (half the age man)

But let’s ignore legality for a moment (was it not wrong for homosexuality to exist not so long ago)

Firstly the arguments raised suggest the child is not physically developed, thing is we disputed that in terms of child birth, at the age of 14 a child is able to have kids, her period began etc….so physically we concluded that there is no reason why mother nature has allowed her to bear children and not allow sex at that age.

Then we move to mentally, if mentally the child is unprepared and does not understand the concept of sex, love, family, and children. But children these days or should I say teenagers have a full understanding of love, family and sex…. Kids today go too university and complete degrees at the age of 10 and above…. I mean if you are saying that the child can understand the theory of relativity and yet fail to understand sex and its consequences then we have very contradictive ways of thinking.
You think that children have a full understanding of love, family and sex? What sample do you base this on? Pointing to one or two maths prodigies will simply not do since they are very rare and also maths (and music) tend to be disciplines in which, for some reason, the young can excel earlier than in many others - it says nothing about the emotional or physical development and not a huge amount about their intellectual development.
The point that 12-14 yr old girls are sometimes sexually mature is certainly not one I would argue with - in human history that would once have been a perfectly acceptable age to have children. 30 would probably also have been a reasonable age to die at, and the emotional and intellectual demands of the culture would have been limited in scope with emphasis on physical survival and role within the group/tribe structure rather than development as an individual.
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So lets say this, lets say the child understand sex and its consequences, the child is in love with the older man, they have both consented, is it wrong for them to be together?

Yes it is and for good reason. You have not and probably cannot demonstrate to me that the child is aware of the full consequences at (say) 14yrs old since I am pretty convinced that is not the case (based on 10 years secondary teaching and many years in education generally). They may well be aware of the mechanics and the social conventions but emotionally it is highly unlikely that they will be prepared for the demands of a full sexual relationship with a much older person.
The point is that this is not about 'type of sexuality' at all. The comparison with homosexuality is completely spurious. A man may not have sex with an under-age boy OR girl so that point falls immediately. The objection is not on grounds of preference or prejudice but on grounds of POWER. It is wrong for the same reason it is wrong for a doctor to have sex with a patient or a teacher with a pupil - because there is an imbalance of power which means that one of the parties cannot be equal in the partnership and is easily coerced or forced by the other into acts or behaviour which they might otherwise choose not to do.
Bannik
Firstly one or 2 maths prodigies no…my friend so far counted through history there are over 10 in maths only.. Here is a link for all the ones I know

http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-child-prodigies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_prodigies#Mathematicians

So statistically it possible to say that yes children and teenagers aged 14 can have the capacity to learn and understand sex, love, life, family to the same ability as an adult can.
This brings me to a point of mental disorders, are people with mental disorders banned from having sex? Or elderly people with dementia or Alzheimer’s.

Also as stated by many researchers intelligence is environmentally based and very little applies in genes that means that any child can be little Einstein.
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The point about emotional knowledge, well really none of us can understand it because it does not have a physical form to test it on and each varies it degrees and understanding (hence the many forms of pleasure) but like everything we regard it as scientific fact, so if a child can describe to me on a level of lets say 18 college student (UK, so high school for the USA I think)what LOVE is then clearly you have no way to disregard her understanding of LOVE, she knows it as well as an 18 year old.

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The point that 12-14 yr old girls are sometimes sexually mature is certainly not one I would argue with - in human history that would once have been a perfectly acceptable age to have children. 30 would probably also have been a reasonable age to die at, and the emotional and intellectual demands of the culture would have been limited in scope with emphasis on physical survival and role within the group/tribe structure rather than development as an individual.



Think about this then, if cultures vary in beliefs, then does that mean paedophilia is still wrong because the majority say so.
Look at it this way, murder in all cultures is wrong, anyone who kills with the intent to just kill, not sacrifice or tradition but just kill, that was wrong then and now. But when looking at paedophilia one notices that cultures still today vary in laws regarding paedophilia, some nations declare the age of consent to be 15 even 14 heck even 9
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Age_of_Consent.png

Those cultures belief the child is emotionally capable of sex and understanding of all that comes with it, are you saying you are right and they are wrong?


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The point is that this is not about 'type of sexuality' at all. The comparison with homosexuality is completely spurious. A man may not have sex with an under-age boy OR girl so that point falls immediately. The objection is not on grounds of preference or prejudice but on grounds of POWER. It is wrong for the same reason it is wrong for a doctor to have sex with a patient or a teacher with a pupil - because there is an imbalance of power which means that one of the parties cannot be equal in the partnership and is easily coerced or forced by the other into acts or behaviour which they might otherwise choose not to do.


There is always an imbalance of power, look around you.
Also a doctor having sex with a patient is a wrong thing to do
A man having sex with a child is 20 to life, so no they are not the same.

The reason I compared to homosexuality was because of them both being accepted in olden times (Greeks) and then accepted into society (well one of them has), they are both dealing with sexual preference so again are similar
springbok
Though I completely disagree with the topic in question being even questioned as acceptable I must ask about sexual maturity at age 14, or even 13.

Mother nature has equiped the female human to have the ability to bare children from between 12 and 14, sometimes even younger than that. We find it socially unacceptable to see an older man of over 21 with a younger girl, I agree with this. As mentioned previously this has to do with an imbalance of power. Yet we pay less attention when a 16 year old boy has the same relations with a 13 year old. Does the 16 year old have a better understanding then the 13 year old girl? I feel that in principle we are looking at the same situation.

I feel that society is too concerned with adult-child relations (attention is required of course) yet they are not concerned with older child-younger child relations, which can have equally distructive consequences. Surely more attention needs to be paid to this, teenage pregnancy can have a terrible effect on a young person yet this is not socially condemned or policed as the topic in question
Bannik
springbok wrote:
Though I completely disagree with the topic in question being even questioned as acceptable I must ask about sexual maturity at age 14, or even 13.

Mother nature has equiped the female human to have the ability to bare children from between 12 and 14, sometimes even younger than that. We find it socially unacceptable to see an older man of over 21 with a younger girl, I agree with this. As mentioned previously this has to do with an imbalance of power. Yet we pay less attention when a 16 year old boy has the same relations with a 13 year old. Does the 16 year old have a better understanding then the 13 year old girl? I feel that in principle we are looking at the same situation.

I feel that society is too concerned with adult-child relations (attention is required of course) yet they are not concerned with older child-younger child relations, which can have equally distructive consequences. Surely more attention needs to be paid to this, teenage pregnancy can have a terrible effect on a young person yet this is not socially condemned or policed as the topic in question


Tottaly agree, but this topic was just a reanactment of my friends and I debate, its a serious issue, sooner or later its going to be big as the age of consent gets lower and lower (which it has been) issues like this will pop up
The Conspirator
Pedophilia is wrong.
Children are non-sexual bing, it isn't until puberty that they become sexual beings. And when they hit puberty they get new emotions that they don't understand them and it takes experience to understand these emotions, years of experience (I mean, a 13 or 14 year old can't really distinguish between love, lust, infatuation, obsession or if they just like the person (as a friend)) before they can understand them and until they do, they can be manipulated using them and more easily heart by them.
So yes, its wrong.
But you have to distinguish between thoughts and actions. A though, no matter how bad, is not unnecessary wrong, actions are. But even that is not so clear cut. I mean take two adults who role play. Or virtual child pornography. There it gets quite complicated. Where do you distinguish thoughts from action?
The problem is where do you draw the line? I mean say a person has pedophilic thoughts and he drowse cartoon images of 8 year olds in sexual situation's. Should that be illegal or should it not be illegal? And if it should not be illegal, should it be legal to distribute such pornography? And if it should not be illegal, do you still draw a line? Do you make a certain realism illegal.
And you have to balance it out with freedom of speech and expression.
You have to distinguish between bad, wrong and should be illegal. If something is bad, that dose not mean it is wrong nor dose it mean it should be illegal and if something is wrong that dose not mean it should be illegal.
Bikerman
Bannik wrote:
Firstly one or 2 maths prodigies no…my friend so far counted through history there are over 10 in maths only.. Here is a link for all the ones I know


I was speaking nationally (UK), but if you want to debate numbers that's fine by me. OK..10 eh ? OK....let's be really generous and say there were 1000. There are, right now, around 2.5 billion children on the earth (How far back in history would you like me to go?) I'll be kind and just take this single year. Your 1000 maths prodigies would therefore represent about 0.0000004% of children. So you want to legalise sex with children on the basis that 0.0000004% of them are really good at math ? Have I got that right ?
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So statistically it possible to say that yes children and teenagers aged 14 can have the capacity to learn and understand sex, love, life, family to the same ability as an adult can.
Yes, about 3.5 kids per country according to my very generous over-estimation of your case and massive understatement of my own.....That would be, of course, if there was a correlation between Math and emotional maturity which, as I pointed out in the last posting, there is not to my knowledge. So your best supporting evidence is that 1 in every few million kids has an exceptional talent in Math and this must mean that statistically 14 years old girls are ready for sex with mature adult men. Have I understood correctly ?
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This brings me to a point of mental disorders, are people with mental disorders banned from having sex? Or elderly people with dementia or Alzheimer’s.

No, because we recognise as civilised societies that such people are adult in age and, although in many cases not competent to make very informed choices in these areas, they do have the full legal rights and responsibilities of any other adult. We also wish to avoid eugenics and forced sterilisation because we have seen where that sort of barbarity leads. Therefore, yes, a mental patient of majority age can have sex and stands a chance of being exploited by a more able partner. From my own teaching experience I can tell you that the Special Needs groups I taught were far more likely to pair up within the group. Do you know many 'normal' adult males who really want to have sex with a woman with Severe learning difficulties? Or an 80 yr old with Altzheimers. I don't. I know plenty who like having sex with young women and would probably have no problem if young meant 14 instead of 16.
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Also as stated by many researchers intelligence is environmentally based and very little applies in genes that means that any child can be little Einstein.
Name your 'many researchers' please. Geneticists would never make such a claim since they know how complicated the genome is and most educationalists would not make such claims since they are not competent to do so (I speak for myself in that as well).
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The point about emotional knowledge, well really none of us can understand it because it does not have a physical form to test it on and each varies it degrees and understanding (hence the many forms of pleasure) but like everything we regard it as scientific fact, so if a child can describe to me on a level of lets say 18 college student (UK, so high school for the USA I think)what LOVE is then clearly you have no way to disregard her understanding of LOVE, she knows it as well as an 18 year old.

So you start by saying non of us understand emotional maturity and then say if a 14 year old can persuade you - who of course know nothing about emotional maturity - that she has the same emotional maturity as an 18 year old then she should be fair game ? Interesting approach. This might be quite heartning or even refreshing if you were speaking as a representative of many young girls cruelly imprisoned for illicit sex or bursting with the need to have sex with men twice their age. Personally I see no such oppression or demand from the kids I have taught.
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Think about this then, if cultures vary in beliefs, then does that mean paedophilia is still wrong because the majority say so.
Look at it this way, murder in all cultures is wrong, anyone who kills with the intent to just kill, not sacrifice or tradition but just kill, that was wrong then and now. But when looking at paedophilia one notices that cultures still today vary in laws regarding paedophilia, some nations declare the age of consent to be 15 even 14 heck even 9
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Age_of_Consent.png

And did you notice anything about your map and the distribution of the lower ages of consent ? Did you notice, for example, that the countries with the lowest ages of consent are the poorest ones ? The exceptions are Canada and a couple of the Scandanavian countries but it should be understood that Canadian and Scandanavian law allows sex between 2 under 16 children. It does so for reasons I have some sympathy with - you should not criminalise a couple of 14 years olds for trying sex out. Their law certainly does NOT allow sex between a 14 yr old girl and a mature (post 1Cool male, which is what you are advocating.
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Those cultures belief the child is emotionally capable of sex and understanding of all that comes with it, are you saying you are right and they are wrong?
Yep, absolutely and positively. Poverty and lack of life chances are the driving force coupled with western sex tourism.
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There is always an imbalance of power, look around you.
Also a doctor having sex with a patient is a wrong thing to do
Which will often lead to the doctor being struck-off and having his livelihood taken. Moreover there is a white paper currently being circulated (entitled Setting the Boundaries. Reforming the Law on Sex Offences) which would make Doctor Patient sex a criminal offence and subject to imprisonment.
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A man having sex with a child is 20 to life, so no they are not the same.
In very very few cases have paedophiles been jailed for life terms in the UK - and those cases normally involve sex with 1-5 yr olds - I assume that you would think that is wrong ? And an abuse of power ?
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The reason I compared to homosexuality was because of them both being accepted in olden times (Greeks) and then accepted into society (well one of them has), they are both dealing with sexual preference so again are similar

They are not remotely comparable. In the case of the Greeks the relationship was always between a young and older male and was often a militaristic arrangement designed to train the youth and foster a close knit command structure. Plus the era we are talking about was around 600-200BC, a time which saw many other practices which we would find repugnant today.
Bannik
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Yes, about 3.5 kids per country according to my very generous over-estimation of your case and massive understatement of my own.....That would be, of course, if there was a correlation between Math and emotional maturity which, as I pointed out in the last posting, there is not to my knowledge. So your best supporting evidence is that 1 in every few million kids has an exceptional talent in Math and this must mean that statistically 14 years old girls are ready for sex with mature adult men. Have I understood correctly?


No, it suggest that a child has the possibility to comprehend something a lot of adults cannot, and you state that its not the case evem though there is no other way to measure emotions other then scientific understandings of it, in which case child prodigies can.

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Because we recognise as civilised societies that such people are adult in age and, although in many cases not competent to make very informed choices in these areas, they do have the full legal rights and responsibilities of any other adult. We also wish to avoid eugenics and forced sterilisation because we have seen where that sort of barbarity leads. Therefore, yes, a mental patient of majority age can have sex and stands a chance of being exploited by a more able partner. From my own teaching experience I can tell you that the Special Needs groups I taught were far more likely to pair up within the group. Do you know many 'normal' adult males who really want to have sex with a woman with Severe learning difficulties? Or an 80 yr old with Altzheimers. I don't. I know plenty who like having sex with young women and would probably have no problem if young meant 14 instead of 16.


No you see my point was emotional understanding, I agree they are older, but before you stated a child must have a high emotional understanding, true, but if an adult does not have one and yet is legally through age, then doesn’t that suggest that age is the factor and not the actual emotional understanding of that person. and if age is the factor, what determines the right age for sex, is it when they can have sex and have children or they have to fully matured, which would contradict many nation stand on 15 and 16 year olds having sex.

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Name your 'many researchers' please. Geneticists would never make such a claim since they know how complicated the genome is and most educationalists would not make such claims since they are not competent to do so (I speak for myself in that as well).


Ok, most scientist agree that intelligence is both innate and environment based, a combo of 2 and MOST yes most I make this claim suggest that the environment has a higher influence. You can go ask most researchers, go ask another forum, make a survey it will all be the same view or should I say be the majority view.


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So you start by saying non of us understand emotional maturity and then say if a 14 year old can persuade you - who of course know nothing about emotional maturity - that she has the same emotional maturity as an 18 year old then she should be fair game ? Interesting approach. This might be quite heartening or even refreshing if you were speaking as a representative of many young girls cruelly imprisoned for illicit sex or bursting with the need to have sex with men twice their age. Personally I see no such oppression or demand from the kids I have taught.


Okay answer me this, what is emotional maturity what by legal rights requires a person too prove he has emotional stability, maturity and what nots. My point was this, the only way to say you have a better emotional stability and maturity of someone else, is to prove, the only way that can me done is with empirical evidence (science)- this leads from previous reply if a child can understand e=mc2 then by no means should it be hard for them to understand sex and the consequences heck look around you, teens and kids are getting more aware of sex and its consequences.

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And did you notice anything about your map and the distribution of the lower ages of consent? Did you notice, for example, that the countries with the lowest ages of consent are the poorest ones ? The exceptions are Canada and a couple of the Scandanavian countries but it should be understood that Canadian and Scandanavian law allows sex between 2 under 16 children. It does so for reasons I have some sympathy with - you should not criminalise a couple of 14 years olds for trying sex out. Their law certainly does NOT allow sex between a 14 yr old girl and a mature



Austria 14 legal for the partner to be over 18

Germany between 21 and 14 can have sex, but it not common, but it can be regarded as OK...

Iceland 14, 18 and above can have sex with 14 year olds, nothing else stated...

Italy 14 - legally adults can have sex with 14 year olds

Liechtenstein 14 no info apart from the consent

Israel 14 no other info

South Korea 13 no other info

Spain 13 no other info

As you can see quite a few more economically developed countries have age of consent 14 and above (I did not want to include the 15 and above)
I do not know where you took your info on the partners having to both be under 16…if I am wrong I do apologise I have limited reasources but please tell me your source.

yep, absolutely and positively. Poverty and lack of life chances are the driving force coupled with western sex tourism.
Which will often lead to the doctor being struck-off and having his livelihood taken. Moreover there is a white paper currently being circulated (entitled Setting the Boundaries. Reforming the Law on Sex Offences) which would make Doctor Patient sex a criminal offence and subject to imprisonment.

Why would doctor and patient sex be criminalised that’s just dumb and silly if they are both over 21.
Again tell me your source and who thought of such an idea

In very very few cases have paedophiles been jailed for life terms in the UK - and those cases normally involve sex with 1-5 yr olds - I assume that you would think that is wrong ? And an abuse of power ?

Actually I think under 16 year is already going a bit too far but to keep the debate or as this seems to be a fiery battle between too opposite sides, yes it would be abuse of power because – 1 the child is not physically developed for sex, mother nature made women have the ability for birth at a young age but not that young.
And 2 yes they are pretty emotionally unstable and undeveloped. there is a difference between a 5 year old an a 14 year old there is even a smaller difference between a 14 year old and a 16 year old, but is there such a huge difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old.

also to point out why I didnt want to include law, you stated before as a civilized society we are right to stop minors having sex, but we allow them to smoke which has been prooven to kill....so legally you cant have sex which both consensted but you can kill yourself.



now i must rest........my head hurts........oh did you enjoy the Eclipse?
Bikerman
Bannik wrote:

No, it suggest that a child has the possibility to comprehend something a lot of adults cannot, and you state that its not the case evem though there is no other way to measure emotions other then scientific understandings of it, in which case child prodigies can.

It suggests that one child in 22 million has such an ability in a specific discipline of math. It suggests nothing about emotional development.
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No you see my point was emotional understanding, I agree they are older, but before you stated a child must have a high emotional understanding, true, but if an adult does not have one and yet is legally through age, then doesn’t that suggest that age is the factor and not the actual emotional understanding of that person. and if age is the factor, what determines the right age for sex, is it when they can have sex and have children or they have to fully matured, which would contradict many nation stand on 15 and 16 year olds having sex.
You cannot compare a normal developing child with an adult who for whatever reason has severe mental disability - it is a dumb comparison, it tells us nothing about either. Of course age is not the only factor and different people mature at different rates. The law is there to protect the vulnerable and the protection needed, as I said, is against use of power within the relationship to coerce.
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Ok, most scientist agree that intelligence is both innate and environment based, a combo of 2 and MOST yes most I make this claim suggest that the environment has a higher influence. You can go ask most researchers, go ask another forum, make a survey it will all be the same view or should I say be the majority view.

Meaningless words...Quote sources. The actual picture is that poor children are disproportionately affected by environment in IQ tests, as one might well guess, but the effect of environment tails off sharply once a certain threshold is reached.
http://www.txtwriter.com/Onscience/Articles/intelligence.html
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45/297.html
http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/breaking.html
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Okay answer me this, what is emotional maturity what by legal rights requires a person too prove he has emotional stability, maturity and what nots. My point was this, the only way to say you have a better emotional stability and maturity of someone else, is to prove, the only way that can me done is with empirical evidence (science)- this leads from previous reply if a child can understand e=mc2 then by no means should it be hard for them to understand sex and the consequences heck look around you, teens and kids are getting more aware of sex and its consequences.
We have covered this already - a very very very small number of children have exceptional gifts in math and sometimes music. That is completely irrelevant in statistical terms - unless you want to make the argument that we legislate for the benefit of 0.0000004% of the population. Not only is it irrelevant is also shows profound misunderstanding of the difference between the ability to manipulate symbols and perform logical transformations and the ability to make mature informed decisions and relationships with others. In fact brilliant scientists are often characterised as 'goofy' 'hair brained' 'clumsy' 'socially inept' and a whole load of other stereotypes. It is just as stupid to assume that because someone has a gift for Math they will necessarily be a stable, balanced and mature person emotionally, as it is to assume that anyone good at science must be a geek who cannot communicate and forgets to wear clothes sometimes.
Society legislates to protect the people most likely to be abused (well, it should but often doesn't, of course) so there is no point framing a legal code around a supposed 'norm' which only includes a small minority of the population at the high end.
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Austria 14 legal for the partner to be over 18
Germany between 21 and 14 can have sex, but it not common, but it can be regarded as OK...
Not unreasonable since the idea is to protect the child from abuse of power and not to criminalise the child.
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Iceland 14, 18 and above can have sex with 14 year olds, nothing else stated...
Iceland is extremely untypical in that it has a very small population (about 1/4 million) and, therefore the social dynamics are much different.
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Italy 14 - legally adults can have sex with 14 year olds
Yes, I agree, and I think it is wrong....
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Liechtenstein 14 no info apart from the consent

Israel 14 no other info

South Korea 13 no other info

Spain 13 no other info

As you can see quite a few more economically developed countries have age of consent 14 and above (I did not want to include the 15 and above)
I do not know where you took your info on the partners having to both be under 16…if I am wrong I do apologise I have limited reasources but please tell me your source.
You are quite correct - I used an out of date source and apologise. The law has changed. My source was first-hand - I have Canadian relatives and know the country a little.....to set the record straight here is a current quote:
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Also prior to Bill C-15, a male person who had sexual intercourse with a female not his wife who was over 14 but under 16, and "of previously chaste character," was guilty of an indictable offence, and liable to a maximum of five years’ imprisonment, whether or not he believed she was 16. Consent was not specifically precluded as a defence, however, and failure to prove that the accused was more to blame than the female person could result in acquittal. Once again, males under 14 were not open to prosecution for this offence. Section 153 now prohibits "sexual interference" or "invitation to sexual touching," in respect of a young person over 14 but under 18, where the accused is in a relationship of trust or authority towards the complainant or the complainant is in a relationship of dependency with the accused. Previous sexual experience and/or consent are no longer relevant where this special relationship exists. The maximum available penalty is five years’ imprisonment for those prosecuted by way of indictment.
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Why would doctor and patient sex be criminalised that’s just dumb and silly if they are both over 21.
Again tell me your source and who thought of such an idea

For the very good reason that I continually repeat - power. A doctor is in a position of trust with a patient and a patient is frequently vulnerable when under a doctor. This is most evident with psychiatrists but also apparent with many medical doctors.
My source for this was the BMA and the quote is :
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In July 2000 the UK Home Office, following a detailed review of the law in England and Wales, published a report, Setting the Boundaries. Reforming the Law on Sex Offences. The proposals emanating from the review group have been issued for consultation. One proposal is the introduction of a new offence of breach of a relationship of care. This would make it a criminal offence for doctors, or others who provide therapeutic services, to have a sexual relationship with any patient or client in their care. Consent would be irrelevant: a sexual relationship falling within the terms of the law would be an offence. The report says this would not prevent genuine relationships between doctor and patient provided the caring relationship was broken before a sexual relationship developed. Although this reflects the sentiment of existing good practice guidelines, which strongly discourage such relationships, it goes further. The current guidance from the GMC states that doctors must not use their position to establish "improper personal relationships" with patients or their close relatives.4 Although it is known that the GMC takes very seriously any sexual relationship between doctors and patients, its current guidance does not explicitly forbid them. One of the questions open for consultation is whether professional regulation offers sufficient protection or whether the criminal law would be a more appropriate way of protecting patients from exploitation.

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also to point out why I didnt want to include law, you stated before as a civilized society we are right to stop minors having sex,
I didn't - I said that as a civilised society we choose not to unnecessarily constrain adults freedom on mental health grounds and to consider more barbaric measures such as eugenics / forced sterilisation
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but we allow them to smoke which has been prooven to kill....so legally you cant have sex which both consensted but you can kill yourself.
Here in the UK minors cannot buy tobacco, and it is a criminal offence to sell them tobacco. It is not an offence to smoke but, again, I agree that this is right . The idea is not to criminalise young people for what (to them) are trivial things. That is why I have no major problem with two 14 yr olds having sex (although I personally think they may be making a mistake). My concern is to ensure that the powerless are not abused by the powerful.
HereticMonkey
[Weird...Conspirator and I on the same side Shocked ...]

1) Actually, the age of consent is going up, not down. I'd like to see any evidence otherwise...

2) Most (emphasis: MOST) prosecutors allow two teen-agers caught having sex to be within a few years of each other, as long as they are both underage, and there aren't any other factors (such as pregnancy), in which case the older is usually prosecuted for molestation.

3) As for the issue itself: Pedophilia used to be encouraged either for mentorship purposes (M-M), or to encourage population growth (M-F). The population growth issue obviously no longer applies, and the problem with the mentorship was that it ended up being not only counter-productive outside of a military situation, and gave the mentor too much political power when it came to the mentored.

As such, there was plenty of reason to stop it. We just don't consider pedophilia to be appropriate behavior, and, worse, see it as a form of rape due to the disparity in power that the older person has. We just recognize that there is a maturity gap, as well as experience, and that can cause some serious problems. As such, we've just decided, as a culture, to give kids a chance to develop normally.

Why is that such a bad thing?

HM
Bannik
HereticMonkey wrote:
[Weird...Conspirator and I on the same side Shocked ...]

1) Actually, the age of consent is going up, not down. I'd like to see any evidence otherwise...

2) Most (emphasis: MOST) prosecutors allow two teen-agers caught having sex to be within a few years of each other, as long as they are both underage, and there aren't any other factors (such as pregnancy), in which case the older is usually prosecuted for molestation.

3) As for the issue itself: Pedophilia used to be encouraged either for mentorship purposes (M-M), or to encourage population growth (M-F). The population growth issue obviously no longer applies, and the problem with the mentorship was that it ended up being not only counter-productive outside of a military situation, and gave the mentor too much political power when it came to the mentored.

As such, there was plenty of reason to stop it. We just don't consider pedophilia to be appropriate behavior, and, worse, see it as a form of rape due to the disparity in power that the older person has. We just recognize that there is a maturity gap, as well as experience, and that can cause some serious problems. As such, we've just decided, as a culture, to give kids a chance to develop normally.

Why is that such a bad thing?

HM


I like that answerand I agree....oh and the consent age has been going up and down, in the UK a long time ago (14-15 cent) the age of consent was 12, now its 16 and recently a suggestion has been made to make it lower (14) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/16/nsex16.xml

Actually I am all for the age of consent to be higher and I agree with the child limit laws, seriously we are like rabbits now, there is nothing stopping this teenage pregnancy boom, laws should be harsher on paedophiles as well.......like stated before 5 years in prison for destroying a childs psyche is rediculous
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