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The Devil





silkmesh
I have always wondered why the so called god of the jewish, islam and christian faith created the devil?

Their God is all knowing and does not make mistakes.

However my logic thinking on this very issue is that before the devil was created the records for sin where filed in heaven. This cause the floor under the office of sin to be blacken and God did not like such a holy place to be blemished.

So he created the devil and cast him to a big pit on earth with all the files, of course hell is masive as there was a need of space for an infinate number of files.

Punch line (I live in the Philippines and this is a party joke)

So who stokes the fires in hell and also files all the records for the devil?

Answer: Filipino's as they are cheap labor.

Best Regards

Bob Johnson-Perkins
MrBlueSky
Well, get back to work then! Wink
The-Nisk
If we are discussing Devil(and God), we are discussing 'good and bad'. But remember our view of the devil is based from what we were taught by catholic church (example). So if we take for granted what they say we adopt their side(or opinion). The problem with taking sides is, you don't get truthfull version of events, they are almost always altered to suit ones version of events. (Remember it takes 2 to make an argument)

Perhaps this would clear up if you imagine 2 boys starting a fight and each then says "He started it!".

(This is funny, because i once tried to convince a satanist kid in the wrongs of his beliefs Laughing if you are interested to see my feeble atempt it is available on my site's Forum)

I hapened to come across a book (The Devil's Apocrypha) in which a story is told about three christian monks who had (suposedly) Devil appear to them. He said that himself, god and other angels world has come to an end, so god decided to create a new universe in which they could exist, and he created man (and other creatures obviously) in the image of himself and with high inteligence and free will, but he wanted man to worship him. Lucifer (The Devil, suposedly)(being on of what we'll call 'high' angels and being second to god) argued that if he wants man to worship him-it is not free will.
Argument went on for a long time.
So Lucifer started to think of taking comand of the universe and started to conspire against god with other angels he had convinced and change the 'comsic order' (the way god has created it)
Finaly God banished Lucifer (just as a point, Lucifer was an angel and not a foul thingy with hairs and horns and all that rubish) and other angels who were against him from heaven, so Lucifer became Known as the fallen angel.
(since then his anger might have mutated his mind and body to become devil as we re told, i do not know. Or he simply is the same as he was and the 'Devil' image is simply lie told by a catholic church(and it is known to tell a lot of lies) to prevent people from forming their own mind.
Which ever it is he was sane enough(and human, since monks were not terified...too much) to have come to earth just to tell his side of the story.

I do NOT say satanism is right (at all, i hate it) because the satanits today have the wrong idea about the devil and they spread evil. I believe in good. But i do not believe the catholic churches version of events, because ask yourself, Why a fully inteligent angel turn sudenly to evil?
This books side of events is far more thought satisfying than the Bible.

What if there is no good and bad on the 'higher' level and only here on earth. That it simply was a dissagreement which went badly wrong?
I have a free mind and follow no religion because they all bear human 'touch' and most are not true (although i found buthism good, if they werent so self-centered) so i'm not tryin to convert anyone to satanism (by far) I'm just saying that Catholic Churche's side of events had some holes in it. So what if it was a lie about Satan the way he is and indeed the god himself? (Remember Catholic Church is known to kill and destroy for power and anyone who went against it's beliefs)

Well, tell me what you think guys! Smile
iZen
The only thing I can say is, don't try to figure this out. All you will end up doing is wasting you time and energy. Organized religion, in all it's forms, is massly contradictory. According to Christian mythology, Satan is simply a fallen angel. Well I thought all Angels are holy and do no wrong? That is my point. All religion is contradictory.
silkmesh
My views on the christian faith is as follows

From my book:

THE SECOND RENAISSANCE
Lets look at the formation of the Christian Faith, after the death of Jesus Christ there were follows indoctrinated into the ideology of Christ but these follows still kept the Jewish traditions. Things only changed when Rome decided to turn to Christianity, this is when the old faiths were mixed together with the new to meet the needs of the Roman Senate and the adaptation of the priesthood. Venus was the figurehead for Virgin Mary[20]; God was depicted similarly to the Sun God, Zeus and Christ as Hercules (half man half god) of whom could fly to heaven on a cloud.


As with the old pagan faiths certain famous people could be declared as being a deity. Jesus Christ ideology had been adapted to be new religion and he had become its first magician and super deity. Of course Venus would turn up with some interesting message from the Gods and magically still appears today in her new character part as 'MAMA Mary'.


We still have those magic fountains and spars that the Romans believed cured all aliments. Nothing seems to have changed much from the mystic magic of the Gods to the miracles of the Catholic Faith. Statues of Venus use to cry in the times of crisis. All of the miracles found in the Holy books can be re-in-acted such as walking on water, perhaps Jesus if was alive today would be eligible as a member of the famous Magic Circle. The fact that 30 or so Gospels such as Thomas, Nicodememus and James have not been included within the New Testament by the church. Due to unbelievable fantastic events within these gospels or because of theological orientation, which did not conform to the teaching received from the Apostles, shows that the church has manipulated a man made religion to suit the church council and the Popes wishes.


It is my believe that the whole idea behind Rome's new religion was to unite, dominate and control the subjects of the failing Roman Empire under one God. If you control the faith of the people you control the people. The Romans had become the masters of propaganda[21]. Since then the Roman Catholic Church has became a very rich business and controls the thoughts and minds of governments, people and a tool for political propaganda. Its strength being in its infective nature it spreads like a virus down the generations via religious bias education and community presence. Many of the religions follows being simple-minded peons in the poverty struck third world. Of whom have no idea why they follow the faith other than it tradition.


Most of the Christian Faiths are run like businesses, some of the cults[22] being run by unscrupulous leaders that are only interested in power and money and have gained trust by the follows by using propaganda and deception.
The Conspirator
Thats one of the many problems with the omniscient God idea that christens ignore or try to solve with a paradox and ignore the fact that its a paradox (free will and omniscience do not allow for each other).

The only way to solve the "Devil problem" is ether to say God is not omniscient or the Devil is just doing what God made him to do.
silkmesh
My thought are that if there is a devil then the Catholic Church seemly would seem to be doing his work?

The devils disciples?

The door to hell is most properly within the Catholic Church?

Best Regards

Bob Johnson-Perkins
mike1reynolds
The Conspirator wrote:
Thats one of the many problems with the omniscient God idea that christens ignore or try to solve with a paradox and ignore the fact that its a paradox (free will and omniscience do not allow for each other).

In a strange way that is the same sort of faulty logic that Salvation by Faith Alone people use to justify their belief that actions play no part in salvation, which is one of the worst sorts of theological misunderstandings in Christianity, among many Protestants.

This is like the argument over whether photons are particles or waves. The fact that God knows the future with total certainty is no contradiction to the obvious fact that we have self will. God’s knowledge does not make us automations. God is simply a time traveler who was once all of us. God knows what is going to happen because He remembers what happened to Him when He was us.

The Conspirator wrote:
The only way to solve the "Devil problem" is ether to say God is not omniscient or the Devil is just doing what God made him to do.

The Devil serves a vital purpose, like friction and Newton’s Second Law. Without an opposing force no movement is possible. Thrust is possible because for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Locomotion is possible because of the resisting force of friction. Another way of looking at it is that a seed cannot grow when exposed to direct sunlight. It must be thrust down into the darkness of the soil in order to begin its life. Evil is necessary because it creates an impetus to good. Without evil there would be a much greater tendency towards perpetual spiritual stagnation.
mike1reynolds
silkmesh wrote:
My thought are that if there is a devil then the Catholic Church seemly would seem to be doing his work?

The devils disciples?

The door to hell is most properly within the Catholic Church?

Good grief, why do you hate the Catholic Church so much? As a Methodist, a Protestant faith that is perhaps the most orthodox, next to Anglicans (and John Welsey was an Anglican all his life), I have to say that while I disagree with the RCC on issues like abortion and birth control, I find them to be a breath of fresh air on most other theological issues.

The Christians that bother me are the FUNDAMENTALISTS and the most unorthodox of the non-demoniational Christian groups. Most fundamentalists are not part of any traditional Christian denomination.
HereticMonkey
1) Fundies may be part of the religion, but they are hardly the best ones to represent the religion. I mean, are Muslim terrorists the best example of that religion?

2) Satan was a fallen angel, who fell due to pride with a third of the Host of Heaven (as per The Bible). It's worth noting that "Satan" is best translated as "adversary", meaning that he is the antagonist of The Bible, but not necessarily evil. Even though he is fated to perish at the end of time, it could be that his purpose is not necessarily that of promoting evil, but that of providing a source of mischief and temptation for the Christian religion. He did, after all, just tempt Jesus, even though he could have done much worse...

HM
silkmesh
The devil can not exist, why would an ever loving god make such a mistake?

The devil is a figment of man of whom wrote the holy books so many centries ago. How can modern man believe in such junk made up by less inteligent beings in a time of believe in mystic and magic.

If you do you have been brainwashed completly

Best Regards

Bob Johnson-Perkins
HereticMonkey
1) So, I disagree with you, and therefore I've been brainwashed? Great way to get people to agree with you...

2) Again, you're just being insulting. Just because a people isn't as technologically advanced as we are doesn't mean that they were any less intelligent or wise. The Zulu Wars demonstrated that fallacious thinking by kicking British butt.

More to the point, God didn't make a mistake by creating a force for evil. Everything has its place; an ecology requires the good (rainbows, beauty, grass), just as much as it requires the bad (diseases, death, vicious animals). I just don't the problem with having a force that represents the other side of the coin...

HM
silkmesh
HereticMonkey YOU DONT GET THE POINT!

We have all been brainwashed into our beliefs, its nothing to do with inteligence its culture.

The Zulu's had been and the British also had been brainwashed, in fact I think the dreaded Brits won that war, perhaps they had god on their side. No they had been told that god was on their side. As the Zulu's had been told the gods were on their side. It could be said that god made sure that the brits had better weapons, but thats not true Im sure.

Good and evil in man exists due to the survival of the fitest factor all a part evolution, greed and selfishness.

The world has been always plagued with natural disasters of which we could stupidly blame on good or the devil.

People are like sheep and the politians and advertising companies know thats a fact.

I am saying its best to keep an open mind and not believe everything your told and dont be led along saying ba ba ba.

Best Regards

Bob Johnson-Perkins
The-Nisk
?I don't get it why people simply ignored my argument to the bible in this argument? Sad I know it sound proposterous, but you need to have an open mind after all. I agree with Silkmesh on THIS occasion, why are people so brainwashed they can't even concider that perhaps the devil wasn't as evil as the chuirch made him out to be (after all if you listen to only one side you will get the view of the picture from their point of view!)WHY? Question

IZen got it right though, with the part about the 'fallen angel' and the contradictory of the religions. You just have to make up your own mind and not listen to anyone who tries to convince you.

Silkmesh i agree with your ideas on most occasions but you can't discuss 'brainwashing' in this topic (no offence) you already started a topic about it and lets resume to discuss it there, ok? Smile
And i like what you said about the church using religion to control people, it is very true I think.

I agree with the general discussion that there must be a balance beetween dark and light, but concider this, what if catholic church JUST made said that 'The Devil' was evil? What if neither god nor devil are evil? What if Evil is only posible here on earth? And that 'The Beast' as catholic church refers to is simply some incredibly tortured-mutilated soul of a former human and not 'Lucifer'(i.e. Fallen Angel). Althought it could be that it is Lucifer who was mutilated by hate and anger at god for throwing him out of heaven, that he in fact did become 'The Beast'?

open for argument! Very Happy
HereticMonkey
The-Nisk wrote:
?I don't get it why people simply ignored my argument to the bible in this argument? Sad I know it sound proposterous, but you need to have an open mind after all. I agree with Silkmesh on THIS occasion, why are people so brainwashed they can't even concider that perhaps the devil wasn't as evil as the chuirch made him out to be (after all if you listen to only one side you will get the view of the picture from their point of view!)WHY? Question


I'd say that you hadn't paid any attention to my post, that's just me...Like I said, he may be a force for evil, but it doesn't mean that he needs to be evil...

HM
silkmesh
Dear The-Nisk

There is a link to science and religion as some scientist try to disprove religion and an existance of a higher superiour being or inteligence.

But thats not why I am talking about brainwashing here. Religous leaders have used an effective way of brainwashing to control their flocks to ensure that priests and holy men have food on their table and a well maintained life. They religously infected our ancesters of whom indoctrinate their own children to follow the way of the church, synogod, mosque or temple.

The devil and hell was used to frighten the sinners and flock so they would go to holy temple and support the religion with funds.

The indoctrination is still going on, the funny thing is that most of the sheep have never read a holy book.

I do not think there is any harm in enlightening people within this forum of the facts why most people follow a religon are normally brainwashed

Your views on the devil are respected.

Best wishes

Bob Johnson-Perkins
silkmesh
Nisk

Is it possible that the so call higher being god could be both the devil and god?

Like Yin and yan

By the way I do believe in a higher being, there has to be its a logic concusion that it/she/he exists.

Some thing had to cause creation.

Best wishes

Bob
The-Nisk
Dear Silkmesh
I agree with you on the fact of brainwashing and the aspect of the church using 'Devil' and 'Hell' to frighten people. i was simply pointing out that there is simply a topic for everything and this is a topic for discussing 'The Devil'. thats all Smile

I also believe in a higher being (incredibly Very Happy ).
But no i believe god is good (If god created universe his knowledge is complete by our standarts, therefore hate and anger would be immoral in his mind, i think. But then god doesn't have to be human, so we can't say what behavior paterns he.she might have.) however i dont believe Lucifer WAS evil either....he might have been twisted into hatred since his descent from heaven...but he is not to blame.....it was a disagreement beetween him and god...the likes of which occur here on earth everyday.
silkmesh
Remember we are talking about the old testiment a book copied from the Tora scrolls of which are about 5 thousand years or so old. It was wrote by an culture that was completly different than modern cultures. It's is full of stores passed down through the tribes.

Genis starts with a fictional tale and then relates into some religous historic event that maybe hold some truth. The Devil was introduced as an evil angel.

My opinion is that most of the events within the Tora can not be trusted to be the truth as the people at that time believed in magic and mystic. things that most sensible modern men and women are rightly sceptical about.

I simply think there is no devil and the only evil entities on earth are human ones. In any case an ever knowing and caring god would not have made the mistake of creating the Devil.

As there possibly no Devil its no good to sumise that this legend is good or evil. But the Bible states there is a Devil and that he is evil

Regards

Bob Johnson-Perkins
The Conspirator
mike1reynolds wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:
Thats one of the many problems with the omniscient God idea that christens ignore or try to solve with a paradox and ignore the fact that its a paradox (free will and omniscience do not allow for each other).

In a strange way that is the same sort of faulty logic that Salvation by Faith Alone people use to justify their belief that actions play no part in salvation, which is one of the worst sorts of theological misunderstandings in Christianity, among many Protestants.

This is like the argument over whether photons are particles or waves. The fact that God knows the future with total certainty is no contradiction to the obvious fact that we have self will. God’s knowledge does not make us automations. God is simply a time traveler who was once all of us. God knows what is going to happen because He remembers what happened to Him when He was us.

Its simple.
If God is omniscient, God knows whats going to happen before it happens. Bob has a choice, he can choose one of two choices. Now for God to know what he will do, his choices ether has to be determined are fated or else God could not know with complete certainty what he will do and could not know what he would do, thousands of years before he was burn. Thus for an omniscient God to exist, Bob nor any one else can have free will.


The Conspirator wrote:
The only way to solve the "Devil problem" is ether to say God is not omniscient or the Devil is just doing what God made him to do.

The Devil serves a vital purpose, like friction and Newton’s Second Law. Without an opposing force no movement is possible. Thrust is possible because for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Locomotion is possible because of the resisting force of friction. Another way of looking at it is that a seed cannot grow when exposed to direct sunlight. It must be thrust down into the darkness of the soil in order to begin its life. Evil is necessary because it creates an impetus to good. Without evil there would be a much greater tendency towards perpetual spiritual stagnation.[/quote]
What I meant is the Jewish version of Satan, the questioner, or accuser. In Jeudaim, Satan is not some ultemit evil but sort of the incarnation of Gods doubt. Or juist some one whos purpose is to keep God on his toes.

Evil is not unnecessary, evil is subjective. People can have spiritual growth with out war, murder, genocide, rape, torture, terrorism,, steeling (unless necessary).
Immortals-L
I do not believe in any God, I am an atheist, I picked Lucifer as my subject, because of my interest in his story and I would like to give more information to people who think Lucifer is the devil.
A common mistake is when people think Lucifer is just another name for Satan.
But how can the bringer of light (Latin: lux, lucis: light, ferre, fero: to bring) become the enemy (Arab: Chaitan: enemy).
After God created the world, Adam and Eve got seduced by Satan ( as the snake ), but this could not be Lucifer, as Lucifer was sent to hell when he gave the people wisdom ( brought them light ) and Adam and Eve are according to what the Bible says the first humans on this planet.

Lucifer’s plan was that he would give the people on earth wisdom, so they could choose who they thought should be their God. God didn’t like this idea, so he sent Lucifer to hell, and made him his enemy (Satan - Chaitan). But God couldn’t prevent that Lucifer enlightened some. (= explanation by the Bible why people have other religions)

Even though a lot of people don’t realize it, most of us believe in Lucifer or at least those who believe in the power of the people and don’t look up for guidance from above. Many scientists in the Middle Ages where accused of being a Satanist because of their scientific research to explain nature phenomena. This lead to the start of many secret and occult orders, such as The Illuminati, The Free Masons, Priori of Zion, Knights Templar...
All orders have been made to undermine the authority of the church. So what Lucifer did to God, was imitated by those who also believed that free will should not be left aside, and that there’s more to life then constantly looking towards the sky.


- kev -
HereticMonkey
Just 'cause: Lucifer was God's Right Hand. He decided that he could do God's job, if not better, and so rebelled. There was a war in Heaven, and Lucifer and his followers (which consisted of one third of the angels) were cast out. At which point Lucifer became Satan, figuring that he could spite God by causing His ne favorite (humans) to fail...

If it helps...
HM
Zampano
iZen wrote:
The only thing I can say is, don't try to figure this out. All you will end up doing is wasting you time and energy. Organized religion, in all it's forms, is massly contradictory. According to Christian mythology, Satan is simply a fallen angel. Well I thought all Angels are holy and do no wrong? That is my point. All religion is contradictory.

THe only one who is infallible is God himself; even Jesus doubted at the end of his life.

I think that the devil himself is myth made by the writers of the old testament to symbolize evil and sin. However, hell is very real . . . In the sense that it exists, though not as we know.
e.g. I know some people who think that Heaven is a big bulk of material wealth that one receives if they've followed God's rules. However, it's feasible that Heaven is a peaceful and holy place which is an alternetive to hell. Likewise, hell is probably not a seen of chaos like Dante's Inferno but rather eternal suffering, which I suppose might take emotional as well as physical form. Hell, in this case, would not be run by the devil, but rather just run itself.

The alternative is that hell does not exist, but rather the idea was created by the Old Testament writers to scare people into being good so they would get into Heaven and not stay in purgatory in a 'it was for your own good' kind of way, and incidentally, it becomes one of the icon of sin.
The Conspirator
HereticMonkey wrote:
Just 'cause: Lucifer was God's Right Hand. He decided that he could do God's job, if not better, and so rebelled. There was a war in Heaven, and Lucifer and his followers (which consisted of one third of the angels) were cast out. At which point Lucifer became Satan, figuring that he could spite God by causing His ne favorite (humans) to fail...

If it helps...
HM

If God in omnipotent, how could there be a war in heaven? Did God sleep in on that day? God in omnipotent so all he had to is snap his fingers and any one who rebels is gone. And thats if they questions Gods omnipotents and decided to rebel. And Gods supposed to be omniscient, he was supposed to know Lucifer was going to rebel before he did so he could have stopped it before it happened.
So unless God just let the war happen an did nothing while it was happening.
Royal
The crux of the whole thing is, to my conviction, that either there is freedom
or we are robots. With even a spark of freedom we can embrace evil. Without
we are no more than robots, doing only as instructed. No objects for Gods
love, Gods pride, for God to be praised.
It turned out that even angels -who are Gods servants, not Gods children-
were created as more than machines. Possibility for Satan to turn against
God, not preprogrammed to do so.
Nowadays angels are fully compliant to Gods will, but in free spirit obedient.
Same as we will be after Christ's second coming: on the New Earth!
Praise God for his love, for the freedom he gave us!
silkmesh
God is described as being Omniscient in the Old Testament (Torah). That means to me that he knew that the fallen angel would cause problems before god created the angels.

Then it would seem that the so called God of the Jew’s, Christians and Muslims has a cruel streak.

Or he is playing games with us poor mortals and created a competitor to take the boredom away?

Could it be God and the Devil the game players, us poor mortals the pawns in a simulation game called life?

Actually could it be God in the beginning found heaven to be a very boring place. It certainly would not be a very attractive place for me to go to in the afterlife (if one exists that is)?

Could God and the Devil both have an evil streak or are they just a pair of bored software writers in a parallel universe?

The God of the Jews was original the Jewish God of War. Crazy huh!

Regards

Bob
loyal
silkmesh wrote:
I have always wondered why the so called god of the jewish, islam and christian faith created the devil?


Well, I'll give you the Islamic view of the devil.

First of all, the devil wasn't just one day "made up". The prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings upon him, didn't just get up one day from bed and say "you know what? let's have a devil!".

Quote:

Their God is all knowing and does not make mistakes.


In Islam, the devil was created to tempt mankind to sin. Mankind is on earth to be tested to see if we truly love God. If we do and if we worship and submit to God, we have passed the Test. We need to be tempted to giving in, so hence the devil. That's a very very very brief and simple explanation of the devil in Islam.

may God bless you.
Lobo23
The "Devil"(Morning Star, who changed his name to 'Satan', which is angelic for 'Forsaken') Was the first angel created by God. His name was Morning Star, and when the angels rebelled that God should not cast them to far off places in heaven and Morning Star joined them, God cast them and him into hell. Morning Star swore revenge and God glamorized the story and said that he is the ultimate evil and etc. Because Satan wants to take over heaven...
And Lucifer is a seperate being, he's a fallen angel because he argued that Humans should thank angels for helping them and not just God, so God banned him from heaven.

Yeah, I bet you think I'm crazy:? ... but hey, I never said you had to beleive me!

((Note: Beleive nothing, no matter where it is written or said, not even anything I say, unless it agrees with your own common sense.))
divinitywolf
I reckon that the devil is there because when religions were created there was good and where theres good there has to be bad e.g. the Garden of Eden so the devil was created to balance things out.

Satanists are just wierd people that have made the devil into some sick and twisted monster that wants to kill and torture things and only do bad. The religion of satanism has created itself from the ashes of all the bad characteristics that make up a person.
Fenroy
One of the most interesting philosophical questions is whether God is truly good and Satan (or Lucifer, as I prefer to call him. Satan is such a negatively charged name now.) is truly evil. If one looks in the Bible, God killed over 2 million people. Lucifer, however, killed only 10, and each of those was with God's assistance. People always try to say that God is loving and there's no way He would do evil, but he did some seriously wicked things. Take, for instance, the story of Job. Job was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God", yet God basically screwed him. God destroyed this poor man's home, killed his entire family, and brought devastation to every aspect of his life. If that isn't evil, I don't know what is.

In the end, I believe it's impossible to say with certainty whether good and evil are truly represented by God and Satan, respectively. Goodness and evilness are simply man-made morals and should be treated as such. They aren't black and white, set in stone. There are gray areas. We need to keep that in mind before condemning people for doing something "evil" or holding someone up for doing something "good".
Lobo23
Fenroy wrote:
One of the most interesting philosophical questions is whether God is truly good and Satan (or Lucifer, as I prefer to call him. Satan is such a negatively charged name now.) is truly evil. If one looks in the Bible, God killed over 2 million people. Lucifer, however, killed only 10, and each of those was with God's assistance. People always try to say that God is loving and there's no way He would do evil, but he did some seriously wicked things. Take, for instance, the story of Job. Job was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God", yet God basically screwed him. God destroyed this poor man's home, killed his entire family, and brought devastation to every aspect of his life. If that isn't evil, I don't know what is.

In the end, I believe it's impossible to say with certainty whether good and evil are truly represented by God and Satan, respectively. Goodness and evilness are simply man-made morals and should be treated as such. They aren't black and white, set in stone. There are gray areas. We need to keep that in mind before condemning people for doing something "evil" or holding someone up for doing something "good".

Lucifer and Satan are two seperate entities. Satan is what Morning Star changed his name to after he felt forsaken, and Lucifer is a forsaken angel who thought that humans should thank angels and God and not just God alone, because angels did the work. Both of them were forsaken for arguing with God.
mesianica
The evil was created by YHWH (Yahweh) as an Angel who was the protector of the trone in the Highest.

Now this Angel, was corrupted by his contracts, he wants to be like the Creator. He failed in the attempt.

His real name is Lucifer, and now, he is our enemy, also the enemy of satanist, they belive in the lies as truth but really them final is death, eternal death.

We need to live in the ways of YAHWEH, otherwise we will fall, and the falling is too hard, is too bad, is too devil.
Soulfire
Simply put, it was part of a plan.

The same as Creation was.

We were given free will, God represents the "good" choice and Satan represents the "bad" choice. I'm guessing God's just weeding out who He will spend eternity with.

Hm.

The whole thing just seems fairytale like to me now.
Bikerman
Soulfire wrote:
Simply put, it was part of a plan.

The same as Creation was.

We were given free will, God represents the "good" choice and Satan represents the "bad" choice. I'm guessing God's just weeding out who He will spend eternity with.

Hm.

The whole thing just seems fairytale like to me now.

No disrespect intended here Soulfire - but it seems to me like you are waking up and smelling the coffee. Not that you will suddenly get a 'click' in your head and everything will suddenly make sense - unfortunately that doesn't happen and you have to make what sense you can from life - but I see someone starting to ask the questions at least.
thegoswebs
Lol huh? That's kinda weird but I appreciate your humor. A lot of people would take something like that offensively but most people should just lighten up. You're a good person dude. Thanks for the post.
timothymartin
iZen wrote:
The only thing I can say is, don't try to figure this out. All you will end up doing is wasting you time and energy. Organized religion, in all it's forms, is massly contradictory. According to Christian mythology, Satan is simply a fallen angel. Well I thought all Angels are holy and do no wrong? That is my point. All religion is contradictory.


how would a fallen angel think?
c'tair
^ I agree to that, especially with the recent talks about God being or not being a murderer. One thing though - I think it's not a philosophical matter but a theological matter.

I'd sway towards the opinion that God is a figurehead - you can chose your own flavor of God and there are so many to chose from: Judaism, Islam, Christianity (plus subdenominations such as orthodox, catholics, protestants) and the funny thing is they all interpret God in their own, sometimes quite wicked, ways. For example orthodox Jews embrace the old testament God who killed A LOT of people and sometimes was quite the jerk whilst catholics embrace the message of the New Testament (however, they only do so when it suites them) and Muslims are a whole different thing altogether.


BTW, how many angles can fit on a head of a needle? Razz
Bikerman
Quote:
BTW, how many angles can fit on a head of a needle?

Hmm,
assuming that each angel requires an area equal to a circle with a diameter the size of a gold atom in which to dance and that the needle in question has a head which is a circular plane with a diameter of 0.5 mm, then the answer is 0 because I don't believe in angels Smile
spinout
So why would you create a tale like the DEVIL??? There must be a purpose!!!
Bikerman
There is a purpose. There are several in fact....

a) Religions compete for followers. One does not want the religion from down the road nicking one's followers. Solution - 'their religion is wrong and is the work of the Devil'.

b) Religions tell people how to behave, but they know that a bit of stick is needed as well as some carrot.

c) If a religion sets someone or something up as the uiltimate good then there has to be a contrast - something opposite - something ultimately evil.

d) it is always useful to have something or someone to blame for mistakes and ******-ups.

e) Christian theology relies on man being rescued/redeemed by God. There has to be something to rescue/redeem him from.

f) Christian theology needs an explanation for bad things happening. A good God shouldn't allow bad things to happen. The Devil is convenient as an excuse. It allows the portrayal of a gigantic battle between Good and Evil - good box office, as any filmmaker knows.
spinout
I wonder if I am getting saved fron the Devil or the God?
No one seems to be nice - God i have to kneel before to not get abadoned, The devil always do me wrong - on knees or not...
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