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The beginning and our existence





silkmesh
The beginning and our existence

As we travel forward in time, we are constantly seeking answers to why we exist and how, why the universe was created . Many years ago I read a series of books called the ”Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy ” the hero a certain Arthur Dent was sent accidentally on a mission to seek the meaning of life. There is one thing that stuck in my mind after reading this trilogy fantasy and that was a remark made by computerized book call the ‘Hitch Hikers Guide’ “When the Universe was created, people thought this was wrong and many where against it”. The author obviously was being sarcastic towards all those that are against changing the Status Quo due to selfish or bigoted interests. Arthur Dent seemly found out that the earth was a biological computer task to find out the ultimate answer.

Wouldn’t it be ironic if the ultimate creator, the creator of the universe plan were to find out how he or she was created and why he or she has an existence? Perhaps through out the universe there are many intellectual creatures that have won the battle for survival job to find the answers to the creator’s questions. Or to build super computers that are quicker and better to get at the truth.

I like many other people with open minds, wish to find out which religion, faith or believe would be best for me so that I can receive true enlightenment. Something to make me less scared to die. Arthur Dent’s incorrect answer of the sum (4x9) and fish shows that the author of Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy is not happy with the religious or scientific answers to the ultimate questions and I suspect his views are similar to mine.
Bikerman
silkmesh wrote:

I like many other people with open minds, wish to find out which religion, faith or believe would be best for me so that I can receive true enlightenment. Something to make me less scared to die.
Something to make you less scared to die is not the same as true enlightenment. The former could be any belief system, regardless of fact.
silkmesh
I seek true enlightenment as that would give me the truth about what actually happens when we die.

Please read what I have stated more carefully, maybe its my fault by not making the sentence more clearer.

Thanks for your concern that I may of been miss guided. The article by the way comes from my book "The Second Renaissance" of which will be published on the web very shortly, I will publish the web address later in this forum.

Best Regards

Bob Johnson-Perkins
Bikerman
silkmesh wrote:
I seek true enlightenment as that would give me the truth about what actually happens when we die.

Please read what I have stated more carefully, maybe its my fault by not making the sentence more clearer.

Thanks for your concern that I may of been miss guided. The article by the way comes from my book "The Second Renaissance" of which will be published on the web very shortly, I will publish the web address later in this forum.

Best Regards

Bob Johnson-Perkins


I think I understood what you wrote, my point was that true enlightenment might not actually make dying less scary. As an atheist my own belief is that death is total and final as far as consciousness is concerned. This is not a particularly re-assuring conclusion and would not, in itself, make death less of a frightening occurance than a belief, for example, in resurrection or some afterlife.
silkmesh
Surely there is some doubt in your mind that you may not be correct? As I have many doubts about my own mind on this issue.

I certainly do not believe in any man made religion, but I do believe that their is some superiour being or inteligence behind the creation of the universe. I also believe in the proberbility that when we die the lights go out and that it. But maybe? maybe.

It good to be a free thinker, however theres a 99.999999999'% chance that I will not find an answer to this problem till the day I die.

Best Regards
HoboPelican
Bikerman wrote:
... my point was that true enlightenment might not actually make dying less scary....


Might depend on what you mean by true enlightenment.

For example...Assume that death really is the end. No afterlife at all. In one sense enlightenment could mean that you simply KNOW that life ends. In another, it could mean that upon discovering that life is a one shot deal, you have accepted that and come to terms with it. One is mind based, the other is soul/emotionally based.

Are you both thinking of the same sort of enlightenment?
Bikerman
silkmesh wrote:
Surely there is some doubt in your mind that you may not be correct? As I have many doubts about my own mind on this issue.

I certainly do not believe in any man made religion, but I do believe that their is some superiour being or inteligence behind the creation of the universe. I also believe in the proberbility that when we die the lights go out and that it. But maybe? maybe.

It good to be a free thinker, however theres a 99.999999999'% chance that I will not find an answer to this problem till the day I die.

Best Regards

Yes....there are certainly doubts and I would not argue strongly that your concept of a superior 'intelligence' is wrong. My own opinion is that consciousness is a product of a physical brain and that once the brain dies then consciousness itself must cease since the underlying mechanism no longer exists. Since any concept of 'me-ness' that I can imagine is related to consciousness I find it impossible to believe that anything that I would consider to be 'me' would survive beyond death.
You are very probably correct, however, to say that the definitive answer will only come with death.
silkmesh
Enlightenment! to me means to find all the correct exeptible answers to a nagging question or problem that I can not answer by my self by logic or anaylistic thought.

Making my conception of the use of a word into some intelectual mystic theme seems a bit stupid.

Its actually very simple to percieve that the true problem is we havnt a clue what happens when we die. We can only sumise! Now if I had scientific facts conserning whats beyond or that we just desolve ito the darkness of the void, then I would be enlightened. Until then I wish to retain an open mind.

I hope that answer the question on my views on my use of enlightenment

Best Regards
Bikerman
silkmesh wrote:
Enlightenment! to me means to find all the correct exeptible answers to a nagging question or problem that I can not answer by my self by logic or anaylistic thought.

Making my conception of the use of a word into some intelectual mystic theme seems a bit stupid.

I was not seeking to do so and am happy to confirm that was not my intent.
Quote:

Its actually very simple to percieve that the true problem is we havnt a clue what happens when we die. We can only sumise! Now if I had scientific facts conserning whats beyond or that we just desolve ito the darkness of the void, then I would be enlightened. Until then I wish to retain an open mind.

What we do know, however, is quite a lot about what makes us who we are. Modern thought indicates that our 'self' is comprised of 3 elements - emotion, mind and consciousness. All 3 are constructs of the physical organ we call the brain and non, therefore, exist independently of said organ. With that in mind (pardon the pun), it seems self-evident to me that anything occurring after death cannot be perceived by anything that one would recognise as 'self'.
silkmesh
What if theres a fourth Chris "SOUL"

If you have a scientific mind you should be prepared for the unknown factor.

Being a free thinker, but wise enough to rely on know or proven facts but open minded enough to expect the un-expected has made my life more interesting as an anaylist. Never close a case book.

What if (The words used by gifted scientist and anaylists)

No it cant be (The words used by sceptics and the intelectul idiots)

Best Regards
Bikerman
silkmesh wrote:
What if theres a fourth Chris "SOUL"

If you have a scientific mind you should be prepared for the unknown factor.

Being a free thinker, but wise enough to rely on know or proven facts but open minded enough to expect the un-expected has made my life more interesting as an anaylist. Never close a case book.

What if (The words used by gifted scientist and anaylists)

No it cant be (The words used by sceptics and the intelectul idiots)

Best Regards

Regardless of the existence or otherwise of a soul, the 'me' that is me, is, as I previously said, a combination of three things that are indubitably the products of my physical brain. Any hypothetical 'soul' would therefore not contain the essence of 'me-ness' - that is consciousness, emotion, mind.
As to the specific question of the existence of a soul - I prefer to rely on known and demonstrated fact - there is no evidence for and plenty of reason to doubt.
silkmesh
I am keeping an open mind due to the fact that I have seen proof that gives an indication of after life after death. Yes I have seen a few what I thought to be ghosts in my life. Honestly I was not drunk, nor under the influence of weed or magic mushrooms.

I have also had experiences of doing or seeing something before when I had not. POSSIBLY have I been reincarnated?

Not everything can be explained scientifically about the unknown.

Logically I agree with you no afterlife after death, yet in the back of my mind I think there could be possibilities that we do have a soul that we are all part of the super being we call the universe. As I am pantheists and not an atheist and solidly against man made religion and the religions control over the sheep.

IS IT POSSIBLE: That the super being (thing) wants to know why it exists, those of us with the best minds are reused in many lives to achieve the beings aims.

Most of the sheep here on earth think the super being is working for them, but is it possible that we are working for him, plus of course an infinite number of civilized races through out an infinite universe.

Your answer was not what I was looking for as it would seem that you have taken a stand to say no that’s not possible and forgot the good scientist or analytics approach of what if.

One bit of advice Chris, there are many people on this forum site that can not understand what you are saying as your using words that are seldom used in every day speech. I stopped doing that 20 years ago as I realized when lecturing or dealing with my business clients concerning IT that it was better to explain things at their level.

Best regards
Bikerman
silkmesh wrote:
I am keeping an open mind due to the fact that I have seen proof that gives an indication of after life after death. Yes I have seen a few what I thought to be ghosts in my life. Honestly I was not drunk, nor under the influence of weed or magic mushrooms.

Well....here is where I get off the bus.
Quote:

I have also had experiences of doing or seeing something before when I had not. POSSIBLY have I been reincarnated?
Or possibly you had a perfectly normal experience of deja-vu.
Quote:

Not everything can be explained scientifically about the unknown.
That would be the point really...unknown=unexplained. The other point would be that the unknown may be so for the simple reason that it does not exist.
Quote:

Logically I agree with you no afterlife after death, yet in the back of my mind I think there could be possibilities that we do have a soul that we are all part of the super being we call the universe. As I am pantheists and not an atheist and solidly against man made religion and the religions control over the sheep.

IS IT POSSIBLE: That the super being (thing) wants to know why it exists, those of us with the best minds are reused in many lives to achieve the beings aims.
It would seem to be an extraordinary supposition with no evidence to support it.
Quote:

Most of the sheep here on earth think the super being is working for them, but is it possible that we are working for him, plus of course an infinite number of civilized races through out an infinite universe.

Your answer was not what I was looking for as it would seem that you have taken a stand to say no that’s not possible and forgot the good scientist or analytics approach of what if.

That is a very strange characterisation of science, as well as a misrepresentation of what I said, which was "there is no evidence for and plenty of reason to doubt."
Quote:
One bit of advice Chris, there are many people on this forum site that can not understand what you are saying as your using words that are seldom used in every day speech. I stopped doing that 20 years ago as I realized when lecturing or dealing with my business clients concerning IT that it was better to explain things at their level.
I disagree fundamentally. My normal style of posting is not particularly difficult for those who wish to follow it. My words are chosen with some care to reflect as clearly and unambiguously as possible my intended meaning. My sentence above, for example, could not be expressed much more clearly ("There is no evidence for, and plenty of reason to doubt") and yet even then you yourself have misconstrued it. If I sometimes use words which are not in everyday use then I make no apology for it. I am sure that the reader can either deduce the intended meaning or quickly Google any words they might be unfamiliar with, thereby adding to their own vocabulary as a by-product. I also regard it as patronising to suggest that I should adapt my normal style of writing to suit 'their level' since I do not know who you mean by 'they'.
silkmesh
They are the less educated in the use of the English language. We all have problems with legal jargon and governmental gobbledygook it goes over our head sometimes. I myself have learned through experience when dealing with people with little knowledge of a subject or lacking a university or higher schooling one has to keep things at their level.

I am saying that your obviously well educated, clever and have good insight into physics and science, please remember that there are people interested in the issues of these forum and want to learn more from people like you but can not understand words that are not in normal every day conversation.

Of course that’s my opinion and there is no intent on my part to insult you or the readers that have a problem understanding you.

Best regards
silkmesh
Quote:
Chris stated

That is a very strange characterisation of science, as well as a misrepresentation of what I said, which was "there is no evidence for and plenty of reason to doubt."

My answer

WHAT IF?

When it comes to this science there is also very some time little evidence and plenty of reason to doubt.

So when it comes to my first post on this thread your original reply was in the negative

But Chris

WHAT IF?


Bikerman
silkmesh wrote:
They are the less educated in the use of the English language. We all have problems with legal jargon and governmental gobbledygook it goes over our head sometimes. I myself have learned through experience when dealing with people with little knowledge of a subject or lacking a university or higher schooling one has to keep things at their level.
The problem is that in doing so you do the potential reader a dis-service. Most of my replies do not use anything other than English (I have posted some simple math in some threads but only in context and to illustrate some particular point of debate). I only use technical words when I think they are necessary and even then I try to define them or reference them where I can.
Quote:

I am saying that your obviously well educated, clever and have good insight into physics and science, please remember that there are people interested in the issues of these forum and want to learn more from people like you but can not understand words that are not in normal every day conversation.
Of course that’s my opinion and there is no intent on my part to insult you or the readers that have a problem understanding you.

I was not intending to imply that you are deliberately doing so but I do believe that you unintentionally do so. I hate the whole idea of 'their level' and I will not dumb-down something because of some imaginary picture of an 'average' reader. I trust the 'average' person to have the same drive to explore the issue in question that I have. If they don't then that's fine - they may well find another thread more attractive. If they do then I maintain that I do not use words which are beyond any average person to grasp and which are chosen with sufficient care to make a credible case rather than merely express a personal conviction.
The-Nisk
Part 1- personal response to participants =]
Part 2- argument
Part 3- anything else=]

1.
Hey guys, first of all im glad i finaly found a topic where some of my ideas are stated so clearly (since it is sometimes difficult for me to do so being not from natively speaking 'english', country and bein as young as I am (i will be 17 shorly- but please do not look down on me because of my age) but i'm i'm long pass fundamental english and do 'Honours english in my school, so there should be no miss-understandings and no reason to change the way you would usualy lay out your ideas in english language) i always wanted to discuss these issues with intelectual people (preferably higher than me, because then I can ask questions Very Happy ), so nice to meet you Smile (yes i know it's not real life) I like the 'open minded' authors aproach and thoughts and i like to argue with 'sceptics' (i mean no offence to any of you, it's just thats how my brain came to categorise you two, sorry. (categorising in itself is wrong-but thats another issue) Let's discuss. Razz

2.
First let me address the issue of Life, Soul, Concience Death and Life after death. Chris (i think) said that 'me' consists of Emotion, Concience and mind and 'Silkmesh' said ''What about soul?'' (compromised).
I think 'me' consists of body and soul-which is made up of emotion, concienseness and mind(or the could be separate, i do not know). When i die my body will be no more so will my 'soul' follow? or does it have a means of continue-ing it's existence? does the mind perish also? aswell as concience and emotion? Now, lets concider scientific approach (not that i know much, i'm young, i imagine) we live 'inside' a universe (imagine a box-although shape could be anything Confused ) we are governed by certain laws, therefore we die, but what hapens outside the box? can our 'soul' cross the border line and continue-ing existence? maybe that's what heaven is? beyound the universe (or as people used to believe clouds).
I do not know, but i do want to know what you think (too many ideas in my head now)
okay a different issue (slightly), 'enlightment'-virtualy means knowing something important and that not everyone knows (doesn't it?)
Chris here doesn't believe in life after death, so imagine this there is no after life, you know this- therefore your goal will be to make the best out of your time here, won't it? so therefore you found a meanng to your life? do what you like and to be with whom you love. Chris said emotion can (since it's a product of the brain and brain die's)die, can Love die? What if love Is the reason to live? Isn't love suposed to be enternal? but what if it's simply a product of the brain and if brain dies so does the love? there's a lot of questions i want to ask but will save them for later (my mind's a bit confused right now)


3. Here's what I believe.
We are born and our path begins, we are greeted with (usualy) love of our parents and others around us. As we grow we learn the ways of culture( Evil or Very Mad ) and life (suposedly), a good few kids asked whats the point in living? I think it is, to experience everything, do everything and show what you are, and, ultimately the only point posible is to find the meaning the the life you are living (so i duno, what if you live your life searching for the meaning? Confused ) I could say i think love and expirience is the reason to life. So enlightment is knowing what you are about and why.
(Apology, at the moment my mind is racing and ideas get separated in thousands of pieces and then interlace back again totaly different, the problem is too many thoughts at the same time and i'm not yet able to process all of it, so sorry if i didnt make any sense and/or sounded like a crazy person)
So if any of my gibersh made any sense to you tel me what you think. thanx Cool
silkmesh
Hi Nisk,

No your not insane, but take care dont overdo the thinking, take time to enjoy the life around you. You sound inteligent be careful realy inteligent people of whom think the way you do can find themself on the brink of depression.

Glad you like the input and of course the friendly auguments. Ive been goading chris. Because I am fed up having to use google (Joke). He seems to want to pull things apart to much with out reading things proberly. Maybe my english is to simple for him to understand.

hey lighten up Chris, there's a world out there to enjoy.

Best Regards

Bob Johnson-Perkins
make_life_better
I'm with Chris on this one. I for one find his use of English to be exemplary. When I read his posts I am aware of the obvious care that has gone into his choice of words and how to phrase some pretty complex ideas. I am also aware of the problems that may arise for those of us out here who are not native English speakers (I am, but unfortunately I can't express myself well in any other human languages); but surely the best way to write is as clearly and unambiguously as you can. Sometimes that requires using bigger, unusual, more technical words and jargon, but usually Chris is careful to avoid that unless the terms are clearly and widely understood. Writing everything in the most basic English is not helpful - some things just become too garbled and difficult to understand which helps nobody.
The-Nisk
Thank you silkmesh, you very right in what you are saying depression is always on my heels Laughing but I don't know why? so if you have any more detailed knowledge on how to be happy all the time please respond! Shocked Laughing

I won't disagree that chris is using his language very thoughtfully and in a very specific (and the bit with people looking up words to learn their maning was briliant!) way, but at the same time as them having a lot of meaning in a very small amount of space is great i think, but some other people who can't understand certain terms he uses and might feel frustrated to that fact and neglect reading his posts. But it's a free world and Chris is entitled to express himself in which ever way he wants.
And I think it is good that only people who take the time will grasp what he is intending to say. so therefore he's limiting his next comunication with people of conciderate inteligece. (makes sense? you don't usualy like talking on interesting issues to people who don't know much about it. it could be good and bad). So freedoom of expresion everyone!

Now what happened to our argument? Smile
silkmesh
I thought so as I think the same way as you, it’s a curse some times but a blessing most of the time if you’re an analyst or into research and need to be able to solve complex problems with many simple answers.

The answer is to recognize what causes the depression, normal it’s dwelling on small problems and enlarging them and thinking there is no way forward or no answer.

Just forget about the problem, find a friend to talk to you about the problem or, and go for a walk and enjoy the sights of nature around you.

Always realize that someone else is always worst off and you and you problems are just small ones.

Never take the worlds, or any one else is problems on your back.

But its recognizing the causes, that’s important. I do not get depressed now last time was 12 years ago.

Hope I have helped

Best Regards

Bob Johnson-Perkins
The-Nisk
Thanx, you defenetly gave me something to think over Razz
Bikerman
silkmesh wrote:
Hi Nisk,

No your not insane, but take care dont overdo the thinking, take time to enjoy the life around you. You sound inteligent be careful realy inteligent people of whom think the way you do can find themself on the brink of depression.

Glad you like the input and of course the friendly auguments. Ive been goading chris. Because I am fed up having to use google (Joke). He seems to want to pull things apart to much with out reading things proberly. Maybe my english is to simple for him to understand.

If you can give an example of any reply I have made that misinterpreted, misconstrued or misrepresented any of your words then I would be interested to see it.
silkmesh
Read the threads your self Chris, you love to attack and do not look at whats been said and miss the meaning.

Your easy to goad, Stop goading others especially me as I love an argument, what ever it may be. Its fun Chris. Lighten up, stop using google (joke)

Best Regards
Bikerman
The-Nisk wrote:
Thank you silkmesh, you very right in what you are saying depression is always on my heels Laughing but I don't know why? so if you have any more detailed knowledge on how to be happy all the time please respond! Shocked Laughing

Depression is literally always on my heels too - bipolar illness (used to be called manic depression). Fortunately I have a mild 'case' and I find it manageable without heavy-duty interventions (the normal treatment is Lithium Carbonate - as I know from my father who had the same illness). It means that every now and again (every few months) you go into a deep hole..impossible to describe accurately. During the low periods it's tough to get out of bed and the world is not a very nice place at all. There is no specific solution that I have found, other than to make sure you eat properly which seems to decrease the length of time the low periods last. You simply have to wait it out and try to remember that it will pass (easier said than done). There are pharmaceutical interventions as well as psychotherapy but I personally do not feel that either is for me....though I would have to consider both if it became worse.
There is a compensation, however, in that I also get the flip side - the 'manic' bit which in my case is something I quite relish.
I can't give you any specific advice on depression other than to say that you should not suffer in silence - discuss it with your family, spouse, close friends, GP.
nimo
I'll only address one of the issues on the post, and say that it is very ironic indeed that the supposed ""creator of the universe" created it in order to answer the very question of his own creation.

this idea of "who created god" might be a question sophisticated enough to challenge the existance of a god. In any case, the most popular answer is probably that he (or she, or it... however you'd like to address the supreme) was there from the beginning and was not, in a regular sense, created. this poses a set of new questions and so on and so on...

OK there has bee too much discussion here for me to write about the rest of the ideas and I got too carried away with this one anyway hehe Smile
nimo
Bikerman wrote:
During the low periods it's tough to get out of bed and the world is not a very nice place at all. There is no specific solution that I have found, other than to make sure you eat properly which seems to decrease the length of time the low periods last. You simply have to wait it out and try to remember that it will pass (easier said than done). There are pharmaceutical interventions as well as psychotherapy but I personally do not feel that either is for me...


man, from what I understand you got yourself some highs and lows, like 99% of the poeple around you. I REALLY REALLY hope that you wont fall so hard as to take anti-depressants.

look around us: prozac and other anti-depressants are being used by millions of depressed people. Are these people really REALLY depressed or is this another massive addiction that this world is developing?? what I mean to say is that contrary to popular opinion, I believe that ALL people have mental conditions at times, and it's how we handle them that makes the difference. I prefer to take responsibility for my actions and moods and NOT choose the easier way out and blame "chemical imbalances" for my depressions.

peace out, man. I know you can handle the world without little pills. you ARE strong enough Smile
Bikerman
nimo wrote:
man, from what I understand you got yourself some highs and lows, like 99% of the poeple around you. I REALLY REALLY hope that you wont fall so hard as to take anti-depressants.
It's not like normal ups and downs, honest. The downs are VERY down, not like being a bit depressed or low, more like the entire world crushing down on you with associated feelings of despair, hopelessness, suicide etc. The cause is a chemical imbalance in the brain - Bipolar is one of the better understood mental illnesses and has a fairly clear diagnosis and pathology.
I take your point about antidepressants but would be cautious about advising sufferers of depression against them per se. Clinical depression is a horrible illness and to be honest I would sooner someone take the pills, with all the attendant risks of addiction and personality change, than fall into the pit which leads to suicide. Personally I avoid them but I cannot generalise my own condition and I personally know of several fellow sufferers who have much worse symptoms that I do and do take anti-depressants when indicated....
I thank you for your concern and appreciate the general point you make.
The-Nisk
Depresion is not simply chemical inbalance (as already has been pointed out). I have on many occasions woken up feeling happy and went to bed feeling extremely down, and vice versa. It could be due to lack of sunlight, i heard sunlight plays an important part in how we feel, so it's more likely people who spend more time inside buildings feel depressed more often (i wouldn't be surprised if you work in an office bikerman). who knows?
But it's all in your mind as far as I think, your way of thinking you know?
You can't let your emotions rule your judgement. (and that goes for almost everything). I do realise how hard it is. But you have to sort it out in your head, you can't use drugs to surpress it, you become dependend on the medicine(which is higly bad for you in fact) to help you out everytime you feel depressed. Mind is a powerfull thing. You just have to learn to climb out of that missirable dark hole you accasionaly fall into (it was always my moto "Life's about falling down and learning to pick yourself up again"). I know all this seems like rubish when you feel depresed, but ask yourself why are you depresed? are you going to let something insignificant be your downfall and waste precious time you have? You have to find a strategy that works for you. For me it is sometimes to let the feeling take full hold on me, then it quickly dissappears. If you don't experience emotions they will get built up inside and eventualy explode (any feelings), you are human, emotion is a part of our sorce code Laughing . I hope my thoughts were of some help, if you'd like help or wish to talk (about anything) feel free to pm me Smile
You don't have to be alone, we are socialabal creatures, let people around you in to help you. Keep well everyone, remember life is good, maybe you just have to learn to see it.

And, "Some things you cannot be taught, some things you have to learn yourself."
(like riding a bike Smile )

Nick
Bikerman
The-Nisk wrote:
Depresion is not simply chemical inbalance (as already has been pointed out). I have on many occasions woken up feeling happy and went to bed feeling extremely down, and vice versa. It could be due to lack of sunlight, i heard sunlight plays an important part in how we feel, so it's more likely people who spend more time inside buildings feel depressed more often (i wouldn't be surprised if you work in an office bikerman). who knows?

I think you are referring to a syndrome known as SAD (Seasonally Affective Disorder) which can be a factor in bipolar illness but not, as far as I know, a cause. The cause is still being researched but there is certainly a genetic component which is currently thought to involve several genes and is therefore not a simple thing to analyse. There are also many pathways into the disease, both genetic and environmental.
Anyway - enough of this, I raised the issue only as an aside and don't want it to dominate the thread. Thanks for the concern.
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