Here is one for all you religion nuts, Does god really matter?
Okay let me eleborate, in my opinion the reason that people belive in god is because they require the afterlife, tell me of one religion that does not have a form of afterlife a form of everlasting life, i dont think there is one.
also find me a person who belives in a god and does not care about the afterlife, I mean the whole purpose of fallowing God is so that you enter afterlife.
It seems to me that if people fallow god only for the purpose of the afterlife then there is no reason to research anything on god but rather research on the afterlife.
oh and does anynoe like apple pie with vanilla ice cream?
Ok...
In my opinion there is quite a lot more to religion than that.
First of all almost all religions are attempts at creating a "divine" rule set that, if followed by every person in a given society, will result in paradise or for some mythological religions a very strong society (Odin & Thor --> vikings is my example).
In fact the Nordic mythology is also a very interesting example, which goes against your arguments. In the N.M. to go to Valhalla (their paradise) you need to die in battle. There is no question about whether or not you believe in the gods - and believing isn't enough.
Many other religions also incorporate some kind of karma/honor principle, where (in many cases) there will always be an afterlife (whether you believed in the god(s) or not) however the way you lived your life is judged and has some form of influence on your future (in some cases next life).
This leads me to what is, in my opinion, the purpose of religion - and that is to "reward" people for being good to one another and punish them for being bad - thereby creating stable societies where people can live in freedom and peace with one another. Europe's (and later also america --> people from europe) progress to being the richest part of the world was, in my opinion, largely caused by christianity. The middle east, who started believing in Allah no earlier than year 700, are now 700 years behind us - in year 1300 WE where running around chopping heads of and fighting wars against civilians - but no-one called us terrorist - so my prediction is that it is improbable that we will see REAL progress in the middle east before year 2500 - regardless of how many wars we start with them.
Also, in my opinion, the "atheism" many people support in Europe now-a-days, is actually Christianity - without the "unrealistic" element of God - the ethical and moral principles we live by are actually almost identical to the 10 commandments ANYWAY...so in a certain sense, even after the decline of Christianity people are still following Gods rules.
Ok...hoped you enjoyed reading that 
While I agree that the thought of an afterlife may be appealing but the main reason I found religion is to fill a gap in my life.
A gap that could not be filled by copius amounts of money, sex, friends or possessions. A reson for existance as well as a set of rules to follow to attain a happier, more rounded and fulfilled life here on earth.
Again these are MY reasons and I am simply stating them as I see them.
I do not assume to inflict these on anyone else, I do not claim anyone else has these same reasons and I do not claim that people who do not follow my religion do not have full and rewarding lives.
Just for me it helps me answer the age old question - WHY?
Just quickly let me state my religious orientation:
I am certain that something must be out there because in any other scenario it doesn't make any sense that the universe exists - even science agrees that everything must have a cause (even though on atom level this "cause" may be a result of a probability) - an WHAT caused anything to exist? - I don't think science will be able to explain that even - and that is where my "god" is - the creator of all things.
Oh yeah BTW: I don't think God started the Big Bang - the way I see it the universe could be in a constant cycle of big crush --> big bang --> big brush --> big bang etc. - the universe was created much earlier - life is a result of chance - but given the infinite cycle and therefor infinite chances at this "chance" happening, I see it as an inevitability.
| Captain Fertile wrote: |
| While I agree that the thought of an afterlife may be appealing but the main reason I found religion is to fill a gap in my life. |
Very interesting as well - I know very many people share this "opinion" or whatever you want to call it. - and I know that as long as there has been humans on this planet we have felt the need to create something more powerful than us to protect us, give life meaning, make death less scaring etc.
A good reason for why many people are turning away from religion now-a-days could according to this therefor be that machines and computers are taking over the role of being what we rely on and beg to for things to go the way we want them to - and Windows being as crashy and buggy as it is (), I would say we're up against a VERY angry God 
Using the quote you did I should perhaps go on to mention that my reasons for finding god are a lkittle deeper than I first mentioned but the discovery of Chrsit did fill a bog space in my life that could not be filled by anything else. Maybe that sounds a little less mercinary. 
| LukeakaDanish wrote: |
Ok...
In my opinion there is quite a lot more to religion than that.
First of all almost all religions are attempts at creating a "divine" rule set that, if followed by every person in a given society, will result in paradise or for some mythological religions a very strong society (Odin & Thor --> vikings is my example).
In fact the Nordic mythology is also a very interesting example, which goes against your arguments. In the N.M. to go to Valhalla (their paradise) you need to die in battle. There is no question about whether or not you believe in the gods - and believing isn't enough.
Many other religions also incorporate some kind of karma/honor principle, where (in many cases) there will always be an afterlife (whether you believed in the god(s) or not) however the way you lived your life is judged and has some form of influence on your future (in some cases next life).
This leads me to what is, in my opinion, the purpose of religion - and that is to "reward" people for being good to one another and punish them for being bad - thereby creating stable societies where people can live in freedom and peace with one another. Europe's (and later also america --> people from europe) progress to being the richest part of the world was, in my opinion, largely caused by christianity. The middle east, who started believing in Allah no earlier than year 700, are now 700 years behind us - in year 1300 WE where running around chopping heads of and fighting wars against civilians - but no-one called us terrorist - so my prediction is that it is improbable that we will see REAL progress in the middle east before year 2500 - regardless of how many wars we start with them.
Also, in my opinion, the "atheism" many people support in Europe now-a-days, is actually Christianity - without the "unrealistic" element of God - the ethical and moral principles we live by are actually almost identical to the 10 commandments ANYWAY...so in a certain sense, even after the decline of Christianity people are still following Gods rules.
Ok...hoped you enjoyed reading that |
ah but you have missed my point, I did state that all religions contain the afterlife, which you have backed up for me. Yes nordic mythology contains Valhalla the afterlife......there my point is made, it has an afterlife and each Nordic fallower of these gods "Wished" to die in battle......you would be a fool not too.....they did not wish to battle just for battles sake, they wished to go to Valhalla....
all religion contain a form of afterlife and all the fallowers of such religion try to achive or gain enterance to the afterlife, if there was no afterlife there would be no reason to fallow them
or better yet....name me One religion which does not have a form of afterlife...or existance after death in anyform be it reincarnation or spirit.
I belive you will not be able to find one, because no one would fallow such a religion.
Yes I agree they do create sets of rules, but look deeper beyond those rules, if there is no afterlife does it really matter what you do in life? even if god exists and would frown on youIf there was no afterlife, there is still no denying the psychological benefits of religion. Ask most people who are 'religious nuts' and they will tell you of a time before they 'found religion' and their life was terrible, empty, painful, etc., but after, they feel fulfilled, confident, and worth something.
Most religions use god as a ruler who sets moral rights, and was used to instill fear into the people knowing that if they did wrong they would be sent to an enternal damnation! So if god did not exist, there would be no afterlife, thus people would not be afraid to commit crimes against one another. As a modern day society, most people don't turn to religion as frequently as they used to back in middle ages (most religous movements occured durring this time period). And if you could convert people to your religion, they would follow what would be morally correct to you, in fear of being sent to a hellish place.
In my opinion, it depends on the person. For some people they need the existance of God to go on with their day to day lives. Others, don't need God at all. I for one am someone that does not need God for my day to day life. I believe that anything that happens in my life, good or bad, is of my own cause. When it comes to things that are outside my control i just look at it as something that happens normally on Earth, not an act of God.
But guys Iam not denying god has filled some part of your life, sure he has given you hope and all but can you trully tell me that you would still follow your god if his religion of choice had no forms of afterlife. I mean can you trully tell me that the hope of averlasting life has not in some way or form inflicted in your choice.
I agree god gave moral values etc etc.....but would you still fallow that god if he said "There is no life after death"
Atheism is that what you are looking for? Atheism is a belief that no God exist...Satanism is also a religon that believes in no afterlife read into it if your dare .. I believe that there is an afterlife ..
| chillinwitya wrote: |
| Atheism is that what you are looking for? Atheism is a belief that no God exist...Satanism is also a religon that believes in no afterlife read into it if your dare .. I believe that there is an afterlife .. |
Eh hem...Atheism is, in a sense, more of a belief system than a religion. No atheist would dub him or herself religious. Atheism is simply the belief that there is no God. The fact that all atheists share this belief does not make it a religion. That's my two cents on that piece.
Anyway, I'm an atheist, and I believe that there is no God. I don't need the idea of a God to comfort me in my times of need. Instead, I turn to my friends and family. It's much more effective to talk to friends about your problems and have them give you suggestions and advice than it is to talk to some divine being that doesn't give advice.
Let me make one thing painfully clear, though. I have no problem with people of faith. My problem lies with organized religion. Faith can be a wonderful thing. It's very personal and can comfort people in their times of need. Organized religion, however, takes this faith and draws power from it. I know several people who practice Judeo-Christian ideals (in fact, almost everyone I know, since our laws are based on them), but they aren't necessarily of the Jewish or Christian religions. We still lead good lives, but we aren't tied down with all the rules and regulations laid down in the religious dogma. For a prime example of my point, look at the medieval Catholic Church. It exerted a terrifying amount of control over its followers, and thousands upon thousands were killed in the wars between Catholics and Protestants. They both had the same basic ideals, but some of the dogma was different, so they fought wars to determine who was right. The Spanish even killed or exiled everyone who wasn't Catholic. This is the effect of religion.
But now back to the point of the thread. Everyone who follows (not fallows) any religion that believes in the afterlife has the ultimate goal of reaching paradise. It's the logical jump for the heads of those religions to push that so heavily because when people think they have to do certain things to gain access to paradise, they'll do them. Thus, religious leaders set up rules that benefit their own religion to keep followers held fast. Very few religious people would say that they wouldn't want to get into paradise upon death, but few would readily admit that it is the entire purpose of their being religious. Thus, I agree completely with Bannik, because religion is merely a pathway to paradise. Or, to quote Karl Marx, "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people."I'm not sure if religion holds a specific purpose but for some I think it offeres support and gives people something to believe in.
If you had no religion or there was no such think as the concept of 'God' then people would feel more alone in the world and they would question why we are here.
Religion offeres answers, answers to questions people can't answer by themselves so they look for some form out authority for suppord and suposedy, guidance.
| Fenroy wrote: |
| Eh hem...Atheism is, in a sense, more of a belief system than a religion. No atheist would dub him or herself religious. Atheism is simply the belief that there is no God. The fact that all atheists share this belief does not make it a religion. That's my two cents on that piece. |
(Actually, that's not corrrect. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god. That is not the same thing as believing there is no god. Believing there is no god is strong atheism. Atheism is not a belief system - it is defined as the absence of belief in something. Some forms of atheism, such as strong atheism, are belief systems, but not all.) | Bannik wrote: |
It seems to me that if people fallow god only for the purpose of the afterlife then there is no reason to research anything on god but rather research on the afterlife. |
But if your god(s) make the decisions as to where you spend your afterlife, would it not behoove you to understand the deity and build a relationship with the deity?
It doesn't do a person much good to fully understand the nature of a prison if they do not understand and obey the laws that keep them free from it.
Respectfully,
MThere is not much of a difference between the NM's valhilla and today's jihad. They would both reach heaven if they killed the other human beings! Strange are the ways of people.
at the end of the day, I always thought people were either brainwashed to become Christian, or needed a crutch. I was perfectly happy with my life until God came crashing into it, and then (and only then) did I realise that I wasn't really happy, and that God could make me happier than I could ever imagine.
He is awesome!
And of course it does matter. It's the single most important question we can ever answer. Putting the afterlife aside, if you met the creator of you face to face, you would feel a bit of a prat if you had never said thanks to Him!
No, it is what you believe that matters! 
| Moonspider wrote: |
| Bannik wrote: |
It seems to me that if people fallow god only for the purpose of the afterlife then there is no reason to research anything on god but rather research on the afterlife. |
But if your god(s) make the decisions as to where you spend your afterlife, would it not behoove you to understand the deity and build a relationship with the deity?
It doesn't do a person much good to fully understand the nature of a prison if they do not understand and obey the laws that keep them free from it.
Respectfully,
M |
hows about this, lets imagine you go and meet god and he says
"Hello my son"
you say
"oh my lord I have did what you asked of me what else is there to do"
gods says
"nothing you have passed your given time"
you say
"then is it time for me to enter heaven"
god says
"nope, sorry heaven doesnt exist you just die.."
what would you say to god after that situation, which is what i am trying to get at, if god said to you there is no afterlife you would not still thank him you would be pissed, you or anyone else cannot tell me that you fallow god no matter what even if there is no afterlife. Afterlife is the thing that drives man to god, think about it....what is the point of fallowing a religion if not to enter a form of afterlife.... its irrelevant if God exists or not exists. I live my life in freedom without limitation from above. The Government and God is two things that I don't like!
I dont think it really matters, if you want to believe in something isnt it the idea behind it that counts?
I don't know about you, but when I look around in this world and see all the wars, and evils, I long for a Utopia.
I believe our planet was a Utopia once until the evil ones came to this planet after being thrown out of the rest of outer space by the good ones.
The good ones trapped the evil ones here, and plan to come back and rid the universe of them once and for all.
While trapped here, the evil ones messed with the genetics of mankind whom god had made with perfect genes. The evil ones were given this right because early man succumbed to their lies, and allowed it. This caused all the evil we now have.
Then God sent a saviour with good genetics to atone for all the humans with bad genetics.
This Savior will return with the same armies to welcome those whose genes were messed up, if they believe this story is what happened and look to him to fix them, and the Savior will also destroy those whose genes are messed up and want evil and those evil ones who caused the problem in the first place. Then everyone left will live forever in Utopia again, and this time there will be no more evil ones to mess it up again.
There are many more details, this is just it in a nutshell.
| Bannik wrote: |
| Moonspider wrote: | | Bannik wrote: |
It seems to me that if people fallow god only for the purpose of the afterlife then there is no reason to research anything on god but rather research on the afterlife. |
But if your god(s) make the decisions as to where you spend your afterlife, would it not behoove you to understand the deity and build a relationship with the deity?
It doesn't do a person much good to fully understand the nature of a prison if they do not understand and obey the laws that keep them free from it.
Respectfully,
M |
hows about this, lets imagine you go and meet god and he says
"Hello my son"
you say
"oh my lord I have did what you asked of me what else is there to do"
gods says
"nothing you have passed your given time"
you say
"then is it time for me to enter heaven"
god says
"nope, sorry heaven doesnt exist you just die.."
what would you say to god after that situation, which is what i am trying to get at, if god said to you there is no afterlife you would not still thank him you would be pissed, you or anyone else cannot tell me that you fallow god no matter what even if there is no afterlife. Afterlife is the thing that drives man to god, think about it....what is the point of fallowing a religion if not to enter a form of afterlife. |
In your original statement, you assumed that there was an afterlife and that it should be studied rather than god(s).
Now, if it were possible to prove with absolute certainty that no afterlife exists, then I suppose worshipping a god(s) would be a matter of choice no different than any other behavior. In this scenario there is no reward or condemnation after death. One's actions in life have no true meaning whatsover aside from your own enjoyment. A serial killer, in real terms, is no different than the most generous and compassionate person in the world. Live how you want. There are no consequences aside from your experience in life. "Morality" is nothing more than an evolutionary advantage to the survival of the human species.
So, if you know there is no afterlife yet know there is a god(s), as you postulate (like the deity in Arthur C. Clarke's Rama series). people might choose to worship him/them because of the enjoyment they receive from it in the relationship (whether the relationship is real or just perception).
On another note, maybe this deity or deities provides benefits to worshippers in life? (Longevity, health, wealth, etc.). If not, the previous statements still stand.
It would be no different than any human friend, in my opinion. You'll never see them again either. Heck, you won't even know that you ever existed.
Respectfully,
MThe existence of God doesnt matter in my opinion. Really all religion depends on is belief. Whether God exists or not wont change a thing because we might never find out.
If God told me that heaven didnt exist and that i just died, i wouldn't be angry because there'd be nothing. I know i wouldn't feel any emotion and wouldn't mind that. no consiousness...
God's existence does matter because may be another twenty million zillion years later when (if they exist) human beings try to save earth from crumbling into a black hole, then possibly god's existence matters.
When the sun withers away like a dried leaf and the stars gather dust and they become one with it, then we will realise who god is and where he is. And does it matter then? and does it matter now?
If belief in God is required to enter your afterlife then, yeah that seems pretty important.
| Bannik wrote: |
Here is one for all you religion nuts, Does god really matter?
Okay let me eleborate, in my opinion the reason that people belive in god is because they require the afterlife, tell me of one religion that does not have a form of afterlife a form of everlasting life, i dont think there is one.
|
If I recall correctly, ancient Judaism didn't have much of a concept of an after life, other than Sheol, which just means the grave, you're dead and burried. In the Old Testament Sheol has been translated to hell, not really the same idea. Same deal with Hades, borrowed from Greek Mythology. The focus was more about living in a way that pleases God and shows him to other nations.
| Bannik wrote: |
| also find me a person who belives in a god and does not care about the afterlife, I mean the whole purpose of fallowing God is so that you enter afterlife. |
Found. The purpose of following God is to usher in the Kingdom of God/Heaven which can be found here and now, but in an incomplete distorted view. To put in in the theological terms it is "now and not yet". We can choose to live in that current reality or live in in a way thats counter to that. I don't really care much about heaven or hell in the afterlife, I care about heaven and hell in the here and now.I think the main point to religion is it basically just hope that there something more then what we have now, so instead of going on with daily lifes waiting for the inevitable end it gives us some hope that its not the end as we know it, also that people will be spared or healed or whatever you want to call it if something happens to them. Its basically a last minute resort for SOME people, i myself am a Catholic but still wondering if its just as it is said......
everybody has their own view of religion, whether to fill a hole......something to look foward to in future or just something to give us some peace or sanctuary from our everyday lives
To address the OP, it is all about afterlifestyles, to coin a word! What kind of afterlife will it be? A sane one or an insane one?
Without God karma is just a soulless machine and there is no overriding justice in the universe. It would be an eternity of insanity. Sounds like a nightmare scenerio to me.
I don't believe that this universe is a nightmare, though most atheists and theists alike are still asleep and dreaming, so I can see how many would be very ready to believe that the universe is an eternal nightmare.
I guess that if there is no God, no afterlife, then there really was no harm done by believing in something.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| I guess that if there is no God, no afterlife, then there really was no harm done by believing in something. |
Actually, the OP was asking why would one even desire to believe in God after embracing the existence of an afterlife? This would indicate that he/she believes in an afterlife but not in God. | mike1reynolds wrote: |
| Soulfire wrote: | | I guess that if there is no God, no afterlife, then there really was no harm done by believing in something. |
Actually, the OP was asking why would one even desire to believe in God after embracing the existence of an afterlife? This would indicate that he/she believes in an afterlife but not in God. |
No harm in anything! as the good old saying goes, if there are four people who are going to gain out of the act then there is nothing wrong with that act. You will find most murders and treacheries are done this way.
God has a way of getting things done we say. But I wonder very much whehter he will have time to think of us. As head of a small office, we find it difficult to think of that person who sits late into the night finishing off his work. God who is the head of the universe and has millions of billions of stars under him with an equal number of living planets; not including the billions of different species that you might have in all of them.
How will he have time to think of a good for nothing object made of carbon hydrogen and oxygen; the one that we call man? It is impossible even to visualise. Forget it!Whether you believe in God or not, and whatever God that may be, and whatever the afterlife you believe in, your religion provides comfort, tradition, inspiration and joy. What is wrong with that?
I am an atheist, but I still love going to church as it provides an inspirational experience that day-to-day life does not. It's part of my culture and tradition. I don't see any hypocrisy in that, because I see the religion as made by man, for man. (Not intending to be sexist, it just sounds better than "made by humans, for humans").
The only problem is people who are intolerant of each other's religions. Remember, in their view, your theology is just as flawed as you think theirs is.
