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The Trinity of God
Man is made in the image of God, and just as man has a body, spirit and soul, God has three parts that are separate yet one. In the Trinity these separate parts are referred to as separate persons, which produces a lot of confusion. While your body and your soul are not separate people, they can be working at odds to one another. It is something of a cliché that people’s material desires can be thwarted by their own soul. Then they get so frustrated with their own soul that they want to sell it.
I'm not religious at all, although I attend weddings, funerals, christenings, etc. I don't get the point to this thread at all, as there is not set point ....
I personally believe that there are two parts to a person, their body and their soul. The soul resides in the body and moves on after death, I believe. This opinion of mine has become a little stronger since seeing a dead friend of mine. Although I saw her body, I couldn't feel her soul (or is this spirit?, now I'm confused). The point is, not only did it not look like her, but it did not feel like her. From this, i gathered that there are two parts to a person, and after death although the body resides, the soul/spirit moves on. I believe that the soul/spirit has the possibility to be reborn (into a different person (this explains my belief in past-lives) or an animal/another part of nature). However, I also believe that the soul/spirit has the possiblity of staying the same, explaining my encounters with ghosts.
What exactly is the difference between a spirit and soul? Are they easily defineable?
I personally believe that there are two parts to a person, their body and their soul. The soul resides in the body and moves on after death, I believe. This opinion of mine has become a little stronger since seeing a dead friend of mine. Although I saw her body, I couldn't feel her soul (or is this spirit?, now I'm confused). The point is, not only did it not look like her, but it did not feel like her. From this, i gathered that there are two parts to a person, and after death although the body resides, the soul/spirit moves on. I believe that the soul/spirit has the possibility to be reborn (into a different person (this explains my belief in past-lives) or an animal/another part of nature). However, I also believe that the soul/spirit has the possiblity of staying the same, explaining my encounters with ghosts.
What exactly is the difference between a spirit and soul? Are they easily defineable?
| wumingsden wrote: |
| Although I saw her body, I couldn't feel her soul (or is this spirit?, now I'm confused).
What exactly is the difference between a spirit and soul? Are they easily defineable? |
That was largely my whole point, that confusion over the Trinity is a result of confusion over the distinction between soul and spirit.
The soul is immortal, impervious and eternally unchanging, just like the Holy Father. The spirit can be ripped to sheds and tatters and the Light of the soul can only shine through to the body/brain if the spirit is in good shape. In the same way, the Holy Spirit is not quite what it could be. Jesus declared that on his passage the Holy Spirit would be strengthened, "I will send you a Comforter".
Just as we can be out of alignment with our soul, this whole sub-region of the universe (this whole 4D space/time stream) is out of alignment with God. The Holy Spirit isn't getting through very clearly here.
I heard an interesting point the other day on another forum on this topic. Someone was asking for biblical evidence for the trinity, (I'm sure you can find your own, both for and against) and someone had something like this to say: The Father and the Son are completely different people, just as I and my father are different. But, the Father is God and the Son is God, just as my father is human and I am human. I am the son human, he is the father human, and Jesus is God the Son, and there is also God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
Now I also believe that somehow they are the same being, but with some strange triconsciousness or something else beyond my comprehension...
Now I also believe that somehow they are the same being, but with some strange triconsciousness or something else beyond my comprehension...
| Quote: |
| Following the Council of Nicea (325 CE), the original doctrine of God's Oneness was dropped in favor of the human-made doctrine of the Trinity. For the Catholic Church, Jesus became the "son" of God, while his mother Mary became the "mother" of God. Some believed, rather vaguely, that God was immanent or present in things. Thus, Christianity came to resemble the idolatrous beliefs and practices of ancient Greece, and its followers began to associate other things and people with God, a major sin in Islam.
Throughout history, deviations and corruption of the Truth started and increased in this way. If the Qur'an had not informed us of the Prophethood of Jesus and of the purity and greatness of Mary, we would have difficulty in distinguishing the cults of and rites of Jupiter (Zeus) and Jesus, Venus (Aphrodite) and Mary. This same process may have happened to other religions. As such, we cannot say definitely that their founders or teachers were Prophets or that they taught in a specific location. We only can speculate that Confucius, Buddha, or even Socrates were Prophets. We cannot give a definite answer because we do not have enough information about them and their original teachings. However, we know that the teachings of Confucius and Buddha influenced great numbers of their contemporaries and continue to do so. Some say that Socrates was a philosopher influenced by Judaism, but they offer no proof. Words attributed to him by Plato imply that Socrates was "inspired" from a very early age to "instruct" people in true understanding and belief. But it is not clear if these words are attributed correctly or exactly what his people understood them to mean. Only this much is reliable: Socrates taught in an environment and manner that supports the use of reason. Professor Mahmud Mustafa's observations of two primitive African tribes confirm what has been said above. He remarks that the Maw-Maws believe in God and call him Mucay. This God is one and only, acts alone, does not beget or is begotten, and has no associate or partner. He is not seen or sensed, but known only through His works. He dwells in the heavens, from where he ordains everything. That is why the Maw-Maws raise their hands when praying. Another tribe, the Neyam-Neyam, expresses similar themes. There is one God who decrees and ordains everything, and what he says is absolute. He makes everything in the forest move according to His will, and sends thunderbolts against those with whom he is angry. These ideas are compatible with what is said by the Qur'an. The Maw-Maws's belief is very close to what we find in the Qur'an's Surat al-Ikhlas. How could these primitive tribes, so far removed from civilization and the known Prophets, have so pure and sound a concept of God? This reminds us of the Qur'anic verse: For every people there is a messenger. When their messenger comes, the matter is judged between them with justice, and they are not wronged (10:47). Professor Adil of Kirkuk, Iraq, was working as a mathematician at Riyadh University when I met him in 1968. He told me that he had met many Native American Indians while earning his Ph.D. in the United States. He had been struck by how many of them believe in One God who does not eat or sleep or find himself constrained by time. He rules and governs all of creation, which is under His sovereignty and dependent on His will. They also referred to some of God's attributes: the lack of a partner, for such would surely give rise to conflict. How does one reconcile the alleged primitiveness of such peoples with such loftiness in their concept of God? It seems that true Messengers conveyed these truths to them, some soundness of which can still be found in their present-day beliefs. |
I am Quaker along with my own set of beliefs, and therefore do not believe that Jesus is/was the son of the Christian God. Sure, he was a prophet and there are many things we can learn from the way he lived and things he accomplished, but I do not recognize the trinity in my set of beliefs.
| Divinaeon wrote: |
| I am Quaker along with my own set of beliefs, and therefore do not believe that Jesus is/was the son of the Christian God. Sure, he was a prophet and there are many things we can learn from the way he lived and things he accomplished, but I do not recognize the trinity in my set of beliefs. |
how many Quaker are there in usa?
what does the other christians think about you?(i mean personally)
when you say you are a quaker what kind of response you get?
I believe in religious tolerance, and don't really see much of a point of attacking other religions. Bottomline, what we need most is respect. I believe in the trinity because I accepted it as the truth -- and I fully believe it's the truth. Mostly, because of the influence of my religion (Catholicism) but also because it's verified by the working force of God in my life. I think the Trinity is a beautiful dogma, a mystery we are just to accept and not question. If we cease all cynicism, we find that this will lead us to true and genuine happiness.
I believe that God is one, yet three persons. Just as water is liquid, ice and steam. They are all a part of "water" yet they are three different yet the same.
Same, God is one God, yet He is three persons, God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Same, God is one God, yet He is three persons, God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Palavra, I take it that you are a Muslim.
The concept of the Trinity flows directly from the fact that humans have a spirit and a soul. The Qur'an leaves you completely in the dark about the distinction between spirit and soul, it never addresses the matter. That is the only way in which it can make a solid foundation for an avidly anti-Trinitarian argument, and yet it also leaves the theology of the Qur'an rather vacuous.
It is the Qur'an that is the distortion of the truth, not the Trinity. The Trinity exists not only within God, but within you and me, and every living soul. We truly are made in the image of God, just as God has a Trinity, we all have three parts to our consciousness too.
In denying this the Qur'an denies everything spiritual about man. It really has nothing to do with God, this false argument of the Qur'ans. It is instead all about turning humans into something that is not divine, but instead demonic.
The concept of the Trinity flows directly from the fact that humans have a spirit and a soul. The Qur'an leaves you completely in the dark about the distinction between spirit and soul, it never addresses the matter. That is the only way in which it can make a solid foundation for an avidly anti-Trinitarian argument, and yet it also leaves the theology of the Qur'an rather vacuous.
It is the Qur'an that is the distortion of the truth, not the Trinity. The Trinity exists not only within God, but within you and me, and every living soul. We truly are made in the image of God, just as God has a Trinity, we all have three parts to our consciousness too.
In denying this the Qur'an denies everything spiritual about man. It really has nothing to do with God, this false argument of the Qur'ans. It is instead all about turning humans into something that is not divine, but instead demonic.
| palavra wrote: | ||
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| mike1reynolds wrote: |
| The concept of the Trinity flows directly from the fact that humans have a spirit and a soul. The Qur'an leaves you completely in the dark about the distinction between spirit and soul, it never addresses the matter. That is the only way in which it can make a solid foundation for an avidly anti-Trinitarian argument, and yet it also leaves the theology of the Qur'an rather vacuous.
|
we also believe human beings have duality
soul - nefs
spirit - ruh
It's a topic that I have struggled with and will probably struggle with for a long time to come. I don't know how to except something that is so confusing as the trinity. I am a Christian, but I don't know how to believe in the Trinity.
The Trinity isn't that hard; the problem that most people have is that it's three entities that are part of one another, yet maintain a separate existence. As it's so far outside of most people's experience, it's hard to get a feel for it.
The best example is a three-leaf clover: Each individual lobe is separate entity unto itself, and can be treated differently, but each makes up part of the clover leaf. The Holy Spirit does a particular job: It's the one that actually does the saving. It was through Jesus, however that being saved is made possible; His dying on the cross paid for everyone's sin. And, of course, God defines what sin is.
So it's not a hard concept...Just different. Rather than say Hinduism, where you have each deity perform a variety of tasks, or other religions where each deity has a specific portfolio or related portfolios, Christianity subdivides the one task, and has one deity do all the rest...
If it helps...
HM
The best example is a three-leaf clover: Each individual lobe is separate entity unto itself, and can be treated differently, but each makes up part of the clover leaf. The Holy Spirit does a particular job: It's the one that actually does the saving. It was through Jesus, however that being saved is made possible; His dying on the cross paid for everyone's sin. And, of course, God defines what sin is.
So it's not a hard concept...Just different. Rather than say Hinduism, where you have each deity perform a variety of tasks, or other religions where each deity has a specific portfolio or related portfolios, Christianity subdivides the one task, and has one deity do all the rest...
If it helps...
HM
I am not Christian and nor do i believe in the Trinity. The Trinity is one of the most hypocritical things in Christianity. They say that they are Monotheistic, yet the Trinity would make them Polytheistic.
How? There's only one god, ie, God Himself. Jesus may have been His son, and have a share of the divine, but is not Himself a god. Neither is the Holy Spirit a deity, but an entity more like unto the angels. Last time I checked, it required at least deities to be polytheistic, not deity...
HM
HM
| iZen wrote: |
| I am not Christian and nor do i believe in the Trinity. The Trinity is one of the most hypocritical things in Christianity. They say that they are Monotheistic, yet the Trinity would make them Polytheistic. |
Did you read the OP?
Christians believe that we all have a body, a spirit and a soul. If this does not make three humans, then why would the Trinity make three gods? It is the exact same triune symmetry. The Holy Father is absolute and unchanging, just as all soul substance is. The Holy Spirit is quite obviously a spirit, and Jesus was obviously the only one of the three with a body.
Now if Christians said that soul/spirit/body made three humans out of one, it would be hypocritical to claim that the Trinity does not make three gods. However, that is a ludicrous position to hold. I think it is equally ludicrous to think of the soul, spirit and body of God as being three separate gods.
The hypocrisy here is coming from those who accept that soul/spirit/body do not define three separate humans, but then turn around and claim that this same triune symmetry in God must be three separate gods.
Trinity?
Sure, if you put it the way that Jesus is just a symbol of all his "creations". Including the universe, with us, other animals and all kind of stuff. In my eyes Jesus was "just" a man, and a child of God. As we all are.
Sure, if you put it the way that Jesus is just a symbol of all his "creations". Including the universe, with us, other animals and all kind of stuff. In my eyes Jesus was "just" a man, and a child of God. As we all are.
I agree that we are all part of God, but not that we are all equal parts.
God is like the Mandlebrot set which is made up of an infinte number of little copies of itself. Someone has to be the central attractor, the eldest brother.
God is like the Mandlebrot set which is made up of an infinte number of little copies of itself. Someone has to be the central attractor, the eldest brother.
I look at it kinda like water. Water can appear in different form, liquid, steam, and ice. But they are all water, nothing else. In the same way I look at the trinity. Jesus was God walking on earth, but in the form of a human being. The Holy Spirit is the form in which God is with us all today, unseen... and so on.
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