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12 Year Old Has Sex Change





wumingsden
Allan Hall wrote:
Girl of 14 who was a boy until she was 12

From Tim to Kim: At 14, the blonde teenager says she dreams of moving to Paris and becoming a fashion designer.

Even at the age of two, Tim insisted he was a girl trapped in a boy’s body.

And when puberty began to approach at the age of 12, he convinced his parents that something had to be done.

With their agreement, he became the youngest sex-change patient in the world, receiving hormone injections which arrested his male development.

Now, at 14, Tim has become Kim – a blue-eyed blonde with a growing bust line who is allowed to wear make-up at weekends.



She has no boyfriends at present but her parents say she is interested in what, now, is the opposite sex.

Her treatment, which has cost £18,000 so far, is being funded by the German taxpayer.

Psychiatrists treating her say she was an ‘exceptional case – a person clearly in the wrong body’, even though the decision to grant her wishes when she was so young is still the subject of intense debate.

Her identity and medical insurance cards have been changed to her new name and sex.

But she has not been placed at a different school in case of taunting from children who knew her as him in days gone by because, according to her parents, ‘her friends fully accept her as she is’.

She dresses in trendy clothes and told Germany’s Stern magazine that she ‘dreams of moving to Paris to become a fashion designer’.

The family’s full identity has not been made public. But Kim’s father, known as Lutz P, told Stern that as a child, Tim liked to play with Barbie dolls, enjoyed wearing dresses and, from the age of two, insisted that he was a girl.

‘We saw Kim as a girl, but not as a problem. Our life was surprisingly normal.’

Kim reacted badly to the first signs of puberty, he said.

‘At that stage we realised that she was terrified of growing facial hair and her voice breaking.’

Kim’s parents consulted psychiatrists across Germany.

Some condemned their support of their child’s desire to undergo a sex change, or suggested that she be kept under observation in a closed psychiatric ward.

But others agreed that the child should receive therapy, because growing up to be a man would have damaged her personality.

Dr Bern Meyenburg, the head of a clinic for children and adolescents with identity disturbances at Frankfurt University, concluded that the child was serious.

He wrote in his diagnosis: ‘Kim is a mentally well-developed child who appears happy and balanced.

‘There is no doubt of the determined wish, which was already detectable since early childhood. It would have been very wrong to let Kim grow up to be a man.

‘It is rare to have such a clear-cut case.’

The sex change will not become complete for another four years because while German law does not forbid hormone treatment for minors, they must be 18 before gender-transforming surgery can be carried out.

Dr Achim Wuesthof, who is treating Kim at a clinic in Hamburg, said: ‘To the best of my knowledge, Kim is the youngest sex-change patient in the world.

‘Imagine a man who suddenly starts growing breasts or a woman who starts growing a beard against their will – that is how Kim and people like her experience puberty.’

The UK’s youngest sex-change patient was Oliver Wheadon, from Wigton, Cumbria. He was 17 when he was granted the operation on the NHS four years ago and is now known as Angel Paris- Jordan.


Article from here

Now, I'm all for diversity. However, I think this is ridiculous that someone would allow this child to make such an important decision. I wasn't even allowed to decide whether or not I could have a life-saving operation at her age, yet they decide to have a sex change.
OK, so she is attracted to the opposite sex now (when however she was a he it was his natural sex). I myself am gay, so completely understand. I played with dolls when I was younger, I wear make-up (although admittedly not in the same context) and I also wear clothes originally aimed at girls (again, not in the same context. What I wear, although is aimed at girls, can be worn by guys - think Emo-ish).
This child should have never have been given the choice to have a sex change at such a young age. They are confused, so how there allowed to mkae such an important decision I have no idea.
suntzu3500
I'm not entirely sure it's a good or a bad idea... It's PROBABLY a good idea, but... It seems weird.
Soulfire
Quote:
I think this is ridiculous that someone would allow this child to make such an important decision.
Perhaps you should get to know the girl and her parents before you pass judgement onto her.

In her situation, I see that it is very plausible that, if left ignored, her desire to become a girl would create frustration, anger, hate, confusion, and could even lead to multiple personalities (or dissassociative identity disorder).

Tim (or Kim) knew since age 2 he wanted to be a girl, and I see nothing wrong with supportive parents... because in the end I'm sure it was the parents who made the decision, and not the kid.
wumingsden
Soulfire wrote:
Quote:
I think this is ridiculous that someone would allow this child to make such an important decision.
Perhaps you should get to know the girl and her parents before you pass judgement onto her.

In her situation, I see that it is very plausible that, if left ignored, her desire to become a girl would create frustration, anger, hate, confusion, and could even lead to multiple personalities (or dissassociative identity disorder).

Tim (or Kim) knew since age 2 he wanted to be a girl, and I see nothing wrong with supportive parents... because in the end I'm sure it was the parents who made the decision, and not the kid.


It's an opinion, which I'm allowed to pass. Everyone does it, and I'm no exception. I really have nothing against sex changes, I'm all for them in fact. What however I'm against is children making decisions that will affect them for the rest of their lives, when they may not understand what they have taken upon themselves. There are a lot of people that are physically male but are mentally female, and vise-versa. They however have the experience to decide for themself, and even then most don't go through a full sex change. I don't know about privately, but I know to get a full sex change on the NHS you have to show firstly understanding, which I'm sure this girl did, but secondly you have to live your life as the opposite sex for I believe at least two years. Let's not forget that this child hasn't even experience puberty as a boy, and their life when there twenty, thirty, fourty, will be much, much different then what they were like at 12 years old. I think 12 is too early for a child to make a decision that is so great, and her parents cannot make the decision for me. They can only support her, or not support her, and I'm glad that they have done so. She is one brave little girl. It may be in the best interest of her, or it may not be, but I guess only time will tell.
toughtrio
I think that the rules should be updated yet again, including the clause, freedom of sex change. Wink

Seriously, its up to the person being acted upon, who might have had already thought for a long period of time before reaching to this final decision. I personally go with Tim (or KIM) and appreciate her parent's understanding of the child, and not treating it as a headache, by having a positive approach to a situation of this sort.

Warm Regards,
Vladalf
Interresting article.
Will her voice become, umm, like a man's voice or will she sound like a woman? Confused
wumingsden
I don't think she will sound like I man due to the fact that they stopped puberty from happening, so her voice box will not have been broken. Therefore she will obably sounds like a girl (or maybe a child, I'm unsure). Her voice will develop over time.
SyNMaN
that's just wrong. At that age I mean. They should make that kind of surgery limited to people 18+. At that age kids should not be allowed to smoke, drink, yet they can get major elective surgery like that?
Tiger
SyNMaN wrote:
that's just wrong. At that age I mean. They should make that kind of surgery limited to people 18+. At that age kids should not be allowed to smoke, drink, yet they can get major elective surgery like that?


The article did say that the process would only be completed in 4 years time when s/he is 18, because under German law, sex change surgery is illegal for under 18s.

It also seems that while the child was adamant on having the changes, it was the parents who made the final decision in conjunction with specialists and therapists.

The most disturbing thing however is the fact that while some therapists said that this was a clear cut case and essential for the child's normal development, others said she should be placed under observation in an institution. That seems like an extreme difference of opinion.
wumingsden
I think it's wrong that a child at 12 years old is recieveing treatment for a such change, turning them from a boy to a girl. I think they should have waited till they were older, like 16 years old.
Saying this however, she is praised as understanding everything, and they do seem to be trapped inside the wrong physical body, especially because these feelings started a such a young age. Although I don't feel as strongly about it at the beginning of this thread about it being wrong, I do still think that she should have waited, but saying that doctors claimed that this could have done more harm than good. However, she is going to be a woman for the rest of her life when she goes through the complete procedure, and in the future she may feel as if she doesn't want to be a woman anymore. If this is the case, it's going to be hard for her to be turned into a man (or maybe even impossible?) and she could end up blaming everyone that allowed her to change her sex, whom where supportive of her in the first place.
Soulfire
Quote:
Let's not forget that this child hasn't even experience puberty as a boy
All of the psychologists the parents talked to said it was best to do the sex change before puberty, because puberty (and becoming more manly) would only aggrivate and frustrate her. It would also make the sex change more difficult to go through.
BlockUp
I have to agree with wumingsden, I mean, a 12 year old?!

She was never really a boy, so how can she justify wanting to become female?
nikki
I have an 11 year old nephew....

So am thinking that if he said he wanted to have such an operation at this age, my sister would not agree until he was about 17+...
wumingsden
BlockUp wrote:

She was never really a boy, so how can she justify wanting to become female?


Well, I have to completely disagree with this statement. If they are mentally female, then they are menally female.

My whole point is the the girl started hormone treatment at 12 yrs old which parental consent, and it is planned that she has a sex change.
LostOverThere
Vladalf wrote:
Interresting article.
Will her voice become, umm, like a man's voice or will she sound like a woman? Confused



She's had Female Hormones injected into her, so she'll have a femakes voice.
tribe
That's not only sick of her to do something to her like that, but that absolutely DISGUSTING for her parents to allow it. I'm sorry, she can do what she wants when she becomes legal age at 18, but c-mon now: If your a doctor, you just don't do a 12 year old.

Just imagine your 12 year old son who plays little league baseball and football to come home one day a girl....... Just imagine...

GROSS AND DISGUSTING!
jWarr
Thats just a little disturbing, to say the least.
mjohnson
Wow,I can not even believe that,It is just a children!why change sex.God give us gender male and female, we should cheresh it.
iNs@nE
Glad you think that way. but i dont thinks thats the case with the victim.
He/she would have had to live with this major complex all around the life even if they did want to live.
It is better he got it done. When he is all cool with it, then there is nothing to be worried about.
Captain Fertile
The conservative side of me really wants to be outraged and say it is wrong but the liberal side wins without much of a struggle.

Everything seems to have been done right in this case and it is far from a snap decision or done for tabloid titillation..

The child was sure and has been her whole life, her parents are sure and the psychiatrists are sure.

So I say go for it and don’t look back. This is, as stated, an exceptional case.

I’m not too sure I would agree to my child doing it but her parents are more knowledgeable of this case than I am.

At least as a child she does not have to go through this while trying to hold down a job and face the bigotry of workmates. I once worked with a transsexual and saw first hand the sniggering and back-biting that went on.

By the time she reaches adulthood she should be well accepted as the woman she will be and all of this will be a memory and nothing more.

Good luck to HER!
arvy
in my opinion sex change in such age is totaly unaceptble, the character is not properly formed yet, cant imagine those people which agreed with this operation, they should wait at least when person becames 18 or more.










wumingsden wrote:
Allan Hall wrote:
Girl of 14 who was a boy until she was 12

From Tim to Kim: At 14, the blonde teenager says she dreams of moving to Paris and becoming a fashion designer.

Even at the age of two, Tim insisted he was a girl trapped in a boy’s body.

And when puberty began to approach at the age of 12, he convinced his parents that something had to be done.

With their agreement, he became the youngest sex-change patient in the world, receiving hormone injections which arrested his male development.

Now, at 14, Tim has become Kim – a blue-eyed blonde with a growing bust line who is allowed to wear make-up at weekends.



She has no boyfriends at present but her parents say she is interested in what, now, is the opposite sex.

Her treatment, which has cost £18,000 so far, is being funded by the German taxpayer.

Psychiatrists treating her say she was an ‘exceptional case – a person clearly in the wrong body’, even though the decision to grant her wishes when she was so young is still the subject of intense debate.

Her identity and medical insurance cards have been changed to her new name and sex.

But she has not been placed at a different school in case of taunting from children who knew her as him in days gone by because, according to her parents, ‘her friends fully accept her as she is’.

She dresses in trendy clothes and told Germany’s Stern magazine that she ‘dreams of moving to Paris to become a fashion designer’.

The family’s full identity has not been made public. But Kim’s father, known as Lutz P, told Stern that as a child, Tim liked to play with Barbie dolls, enjoyed wearing dresses and, from the age of two, insisted that he was a girl.

‘We saw Kim as a girl, but not as a problem. Our life was surprisingly normal.’

Kim reacted badly to the first signs of puberty, he said.

‘At that stage we realised that she was terrified of growing facial hair and her voice breaking.’

Kim’s parents consulted psychiatrists across Germany.

Some condemned their support of their child’s desire to undergo a sex change, or suggested that she be kept under observation in a closed psychiatric ward.

But others agreed that the child should receive therapy, because growing up to be a man would have damaged her personality.

Dr Bern Meyenburg, the head of a clinic for children and adolescents with identity disturbances at Frankfurt University, concluded that the child was serious.

He wrote in his diagnosis: ‘Kim is a mentally well-developed child who appears happy and balanced.

‘There is no doubt of the determined wish, which was already detectable since early childhood. It would have been very wrong to let Kim grow up to be a man.

‘It is rare to have such a clear-cut case.’

The sex change will not become complete for another four years because while German law does not forbid hormone treatment for minors, they must be 18 before gender-transforming surgery can be carried out.

Dr Achim Wuesthof, who is treating Kim at a clinic in Hamburg, said: ‘To the best of my knowledge, Kim is the youngest sex-change patient in the world.

‘Imagine a man who suddenly starts growing breasts or a woman who starts growing a beard against their will – that is how Kim and people like her experience puberty.’

The UK’s youngest sex-change patient was Oliver Wheadon, from Wigton, Cumbria. He was 17 when he was granted the operation on the NHS four years ago and is now known as Angel Paris- Jordan.


Article from here

Now, I'm all for diversity. However, I think this is ridiculous that someone would allow this child to make such an important decision. I wasn't even allowed to decide whether or not I could have a life-saving operation at her age, yet they decide to have a sex change.
OK, so she is attracted to the opposite sex now (when however she was a he it was his natural sex). I myself am gay, so completely understand. I played with dolls when I was younger, I wear make-up (although admittedly not in the same context) and I also wear clothes originally aimed at girls (again, not in the same context. What I wear, although is aimed at girls, can be worn by guys - think Emo-ish).
This child should have never have been given the choice to have a sex change at such a young age. They are confused, so how there allowed to mkae such an important decision I have no idea.
defnet
I'LL BE HONEST.

I know that I have to respect people who want to have a sex-change or believe that the're gay but i just find it SO D@MN STRANGE AND WEIRD.

Those things I will never accept as normal (my opinion)

Shocked
horseatingweeds
OK, so you have a 12 year old boy who feels like a girl. “Let’s mutilate the boy’s body and prevent his development into a man.”

After all, we must be tolerant and current on such issues…..

I thought this was a joke until I looked it up myself. This is totally irresponsible of the parents and the German government. I remember myself at 12 and 14. I’m sure as bird shite in summer glad all those wishes weren’t granted!

Let’s just say the boy grows up and decides, “Yes, I want to become a woman”. Fine, by then he’ll have the perspective of being an actual MAN and not a boy, which is not unlike a girl.

Also, by then there will certainly be less horrifying ‘sex reassignment’ or what ever, procedures. For crying out loud; do you know what they do to make a boy into a ‘girl’? We’ll, it’s not a girl.

I’m all for freedom, but kids are stupid. They require some form of guidance and protection, mainly from them selves.
suntzu3500
Quote:
in my opinion sex change in such age is totaly unaceptble, the character is not properly formed yet, cant imagine those people which agreed with this operation, they should wait at least when person becames 18 or more.


I agree with this - that's a better idea.
paul_indo
I must agree with those who think this is weird.

How many kids between 2 and 14 years old want to be firemen or astronauts or pilots and forget about the whole thing a few years later?

I am not saying it is the same but it shows the principle that what seems like a good idea when we are young may not be so interesting or suitable when we become older and more critical in our thinking.

I believe it would have been wiser to wait a few years to ensure that the adult will still feel the same as this is pretty hard to undo I would imagine.
indianinworld
What a 12 Year old child will know ??

It doesnot mean anything to me except "a Wrong Decision at the Wrong Time".

Keep Smiling
Captain Fertile
If the child has reached puberty I think their oppinion counts a lot more.

But I would hope that at 12 my child would not be so 'au fait' with sexual matters in all its many forms. Can a 12 year old understand sexual attraction to the opposite gender and all it entails?

I would hope all of that has been thouroughly investigated by the specialists before going ahead.

If they are however the matter cannot be simply ignored, this can be just as harmful as being too eager to accept their feelings on such matters.
DocWonton
Captain Fertile wrote:
Can a 12 year old understand sexual attraction to the opposite gender and all it entails?


Given the circumstances of Kim in the article i believe its possible. The AVERAGE child may not be able to understand it but there are some children who are naturally more mature than others and understand things and deal with them the way an adult would. But for all children, I believe it (understanding sexual attraction to the opposite gender) comes with age. At 12, Tim (using the past name) would be in a typical child's late Early Adolescence. He would be questioning normalities of physical maturation, sexual development, and how the process relates to others of the same gender. Concrete thinking begins and the child deals with health situations in a simple, explicit manner using visual and verbal cues.

The article did not detail much of the maturity and physiological state( the child could be thinking like a female even though the body is a male) of this child so we may not know enough information to judge it accurately.
paul_indo
One thing I find a little strange is that the article says that "even at the age of two" he though he was a girl trapped in a boys body.
I would have though that the differences between boys and girls up to the age of around 4 or 5 at least would be more the product of upbringing than actual gender, by which I mean boys are expected and encouraged to play cowboys or whatever and girls are encouraged to play with dolls.

I am not purporting this gender modeling to be the ideal, but it is fairly often the reality.

So, how dose a 2 or 3 year old decide they are in the wrong body????
bongoman
well this story raises a lot of ethical issues, and the whole process of sex change is very controversial, I mean its not an overnight thing, its a very long process. Not to mention the fact that it requires numerous consultations with a number of psychiatrists in order to properly asses a person who experiences gender disassociation, the fact that its a 12-14 year old makes this all the more difficult because thats still part of a person's formative years when you're still figuring out who you are as a person, and part of that transition to adulthood.
Flakky
I think this is alright since you will go trough a rough period (puberty) and you 'explore' your own body but you constantly think that this isn't right. I don't know why but most people think that being a gay is strange and if you like guy, you have another reason to become a girl.

This isn't the first case, but children should not know about this article but say to their parents himself that he or she wants to change sex since the parents would know this is serious. Only serious kids are allowed to change sex in my oppinion.
lyddi8
Oh, leave the poor girl alone.
In retrospect, everyone thinks that they are naive at 14, but in my opinion you are absolutely clued-in at that age-- probably more so than in your 20's, when things start to get complicated. Better to do the change before life starts to weigh you down.
If you know what you want, you know what you want. 14 is old enough.
wumingsden
lyddi8 wrote:
Oh, leave the poor girl alone.
In retrospect, everyone thinks that they are naive at 14, but in my opinion you are absolutely clued-in at that age-- probably more so than in your 20's, when things start to get complicated. Better to do the change before life starts to weigh you down.
If you know what you want, you know what you want. 14 is old enough.


I am not much older than the girl in the article and I think she was too young to have the sex change. I have a slight problem with it because she may regret the sex change in future, like some post-op people do. She could decide that she may not want a full sex change.
I'm a hypocrite though, I fully admit it. I have a problem with it, and don't have a problem with it, at the same time. For example, I feel that she should go through puberty and then see what she (at the moment he) feels like, instead of giving her medication to stop this from happening. The opposing thought to this is that like her psychologists say, it may harm her beyond repair.
smarter
Soulfire wrote:
Perhaps you should get to know the girl and her parents before you pass judgement onto her.


Please, spare me the nonsense!

Shocked Disturbing situation..... I know there are many nut cases out there but when those mad people get approval from others something's indeed wrong.

Give people too much freedom and soon they will think it's their "natural" right to do anything: have a sex change, suicide, to cut body parts they don't like (the case of the man who disposed of one leg helped by doctors), ....

Too much freedom will kill you!
GSIS
I don't think it's really my place to say whether or not, in this case, the right action was taken. I hope for Kim/Tim's sake that it was the correct thing to do. It does appear to be very clear-cut (pardon the pun).

In general, though, my thoughts are somewhere between "best to get it done before settling in to college/university and a career" or "this is a serious assault of a minor - it should not be done until the individual is old enough to make up their own mind without requiring parental involvement."
LumberJack
Well. The fact that they want the sex change so badly is something that one should weigh in on. Does it matter if you wait until he is 18? He seems so dead set about getting it done. I do agree though, that some sort of minimum should be imposed. Last thing we need is parents changing the sex of their child because they don't want the sex they have. Can you imagine o_O
achowles
As much of an exceptional case as this might have been, hormones can be pretty unpredictable until maturity. I just don't think that this kind of decision should have been made at that age.

I'm a bit on the fence. But I just can't really see it as right.
wumingsden
It seems some of you aren't reading the article clearing enough. Kim is only having hormone treatment to stop her going through male puberty. She will have the sex change when she is old enough, 16 or 18 I think
Arnie
Quote:
It seems some of you aren't reading the article clearing enough. [...] She will have the sex change when she is old enough, 16 or 18 I think
In that case it seems like you should be blaming the guy who chose this topic's title, shouldn't you?
GSIS
I read and fully understood that the actual chop will not be done for a few years.

I wonder, though, what the implications will be for his health and future life if he/she backs out before then. The chemical/hormone damage may already be irreversible.
wumingsden
Arnie wrote:
Quote:
It seems some of you aren't reading the article clearing enough. [...] She will have the sex change when she is old enough, 16 or 18 I think
In that case it seems like you should be blaming the guy who chose this topic's title, shouldn't you?


A very good point Arnie, however, the thread started probably used this topic title because they didn't want to use "12 yr old decides to have a sex change when there 18".
The topic starter probably thought that the article would of been fully read, and therefore understood, rather than just noticing the topic title and stating their opinion of that instead.
I guess the topic starter was wrong.

I wrote:
The sex change will not become complete for another four years because while German law does not forbid hormone treatment for minors, they must be 18 before gender-transforming surgery can be carried out.


GSIS wrote:
I read and fully understood that the actual chop will not be done for a few years.

I wonder, though, what the implications will be for his health and future life if he/she backs out before then. The chemical/hormone damage may already be irreversible.


One of the reasons why I'm not all for it at such a young age ... the treatment that is. The hormones will stop her male puberty cycle and she'll grow breast tissue. The effects can be reversed by increasing her testosterone levels.
Mannix
It's wierd, whether or not it's wrong has yet to be seen(and it's unlikely that we'll see it, in any case). If indeed it was as they say an exeptional case, I hope she has the best of luck and goes on to live a good life. On the other hand I just can't see someone being able to make such a big decision when they are 12.
lyddi8
Did anyone ever consider that this girl may be "harmed beyond repair" if she was forced to stay a male?!
Just because it's different, doesn't mean it's wrong... there must have been exceptional circumstances in this case. In addition, nothing will be done physically that is irreversible until she's 16 or 18...

From the original article:
‘Kim is a mentally well-developed child who appears happy and balanced.
‘There is no doubt of the determined wish, which was already detectable since early childhood. It would have been very wrong to let Kim grow up to be a man.'


Gender Dysmorphia is a condition that normally increases in intensity as the person gets older. It has also been proven that children have a feeling of "being trapped in the wrong body" from an early age. If people would actually take the time to read into the condition, you would realise that the best treatment is early treatment-- provided that the parents, doctors & patient all agree, and give full consent.

http://etransgender.com/viewtopic.php?p=358
ordspil
Well, personally I mean that it is wrong to change your sex, and especially in a so young age, a 12 years old boy cant administrate it like that. I am sure he is going to realize that it was a bad idea some day when he grows a little older.
hobby2kay
I agree completely with Lyddi8, no one here really cares what the person really wants.
SonLight
I see the decision to begin hormone therapy as a good compromise. The effects of puberty will be re-directed toward female, rather than male, development. Nevertheless, should she decide at age 18 or 24 or whatever that she now wants to be a man, the effects are reversible and she could again become male and have a normal male life.

The most difficult issue for them to face was changing her legal gender identity. Having decided to do that, she will have lived as a female for at least four years, so even at the young age of 18 she will have met the conditions and may be ready to proceed with the final irreversible operation.

This sort of decision should not be taken lightly. I wish her and her parents well, and support both of them in their decision, which seems to have been made after long and careful consideration.
wumingsden
Wow, this thread is nearly two years old!

hobby2kay wrote:
I agree completely with Lyddi8, no one here really cares what the person really wants.


Not to sound big-headed or anything, but I more than most here know what its like...

This is me. My real christian name is Nick



And I still think that it may of done more harm than good to start such early hormone replacement therapy. But thats just my opinion xx
pumpin
toughtrio wrote:
I think that the rules should be updated yet again, including the clause, freedom of sex change. Wink

Seriously, its up to the person being acted upon, who might have had already thought for a long period of time before reaching to this final decision. I personally go with Tim (or KIM) and appreciate her parent's understanding of the child, and not treating it as a headache, by having a positive approach to a situation of this sort.

Warm Regards,



I totally agree with you. That girl was too small to take such a decision.
spring567
it is no a good news.
spring567
it is no a good news.
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