A friend of mine reckons that the elusive Higgs Boson could well be within reach of the new Hadron collider at CERN. He's a particle physicist so he should know.....Apparently the particle can be detected by observing collisions between two gluons, which then decay into a top/antitop quark pair, which in turn decay into a neutral Higgs Boson. That's what the theory says anyway.
If they do find it then the standard model will be almost complete - the only outstanding particle not observed after the Higgs will be potential super-symmetric developments such as the Graviton, I think.
That represents a real milestone in science because it will signal the completion (almost) of one of the cornerstones of modern physics - the completion of the standard model - a wonderful achievement I think. Even more wonderful when you consider that the basic theory is largely unchanged since the 1960s - the scientists Steven Weinberg and Abdus Salam developed most of the model in that decade and the Higgs will complete the model (unless super-symmetrical particles are then added - like the graviton). All the predicted Fermions and Bosons have already been observed and the model still holds up....nice one
Isn't this the ATLAS project? I remember hearing something about it. They were planning to use a large hadron collider to smash subatomic particles together, hoping that upon impact they would "splinter" into their fundamental particles and that this would reveal the Higgs Boson.
| MeddlingMonk wrote: |
| Isn't this the ATLAS project? I remember hearing something about it. They were planning to use a large hadron collider to smash subatomic particles together, hoping that upon impact they would "splinter" into their fundamental particles and that this would reveal the Higgs Boson. |
Yes that is correct. The collider should produce energies sufficient for gluons to fuse together and this is one potential way in which the Higgs particle can be detected.I suppose I could find this out easily enough on my own, but... when does your friend expect to begin producing those particles? I'm very excited by the upcoming discoveries in the physics pipeline within the next few years.
| Gagnar The Unruly wrote: |
| I suppose I could find this out easily enough on my own, but... when does your friend expect to begin producing those particles? I'm very excited by the upcoming discoveries in the physics pipeline within the next few years. |
He is not actually on the Atlas project himself but he will be keeping a close eye on developments. Atlas is currently being commissioned and should be in a position to start the search around November.
Here's a link to a video on Atlas:
http://atlas.ch/multimedia/feature_atlas.html | Bikerman wrote: |
| Gagnar The Unruly wrote: | | I suppose I could find this out easily enough on my own, but... when does your friend expect to begin producing those particles? I'm very excited by the upcoming discoveries in the physics pipeline within the next few years. |
He is not actually on the Atlas project himself but he will be keeping a close eye on developments. Atlas is currently being commissioned and should be in a position to start the search around November.
Here's a link to a video on Atlas:
http://atlas.ch/multimedia/feature_atlas.html |
A few more vids (17 so far) some released in the last month or so can be found here too:: http://www.youtube.com/theATLASExperiment
Looks like Spring/May 2008 is the latest switch-on date...
The graviton, if it exists, is not in itself a supergravity partner. The superpartner of the graviton would be a gravitino.
Supersymmetry says that for each fermion there is an associated boson, and for each boson there is an associated fermion. Therefore the gravitino would be a fermion.
As for the LHC detecting gravitons, that may or may not happen. However, even if gravitons are not detected, there may be signs of K-K (Kaluza-Klein) modes, which are extra-dimensional particles associated with the graviton.
Please excuse my layman's ignorance, but does that mean physics is getting closer to a unified field theory?
That is pretty exciting.
| Jinx wrote: |
Please excuse my layman's ignorance, but does that mean physics is getting closer to a unified field theory?
That is pretty exciting. |
It is pretty exciting yes. As for a 'unified field theory' - no I don't think so. A UFT is one which would describe all elementary forces in terms of a single field and I don't think that that is on the horizon. The Higgs field (should the Higgs particle be detected) would explain mass but there would still be the 'colour ' force and the electromagnetic force distinct from that.*
*Bear in mind I'm an amateur and that is only my limited understanding.... | Jinx wrote: |
Please excuse my layman's ignorance, but does that mean physics is getting closer to a unified field theory?
That is pretty exciting. |
Yes, it is exciting... The current claim/hypothesis from the ivory towers on Earth is that all physics is solvable. The tool-kit required and supplied by friendly mathematicians at places like Oxford and Cambridge universities in the uk and others elsewhere is either of SU(10) or SU(11). These are also known as special unitary group theorems in n dimensions. The LHC and other space-based equipment will soon demonstrate whether or not the 11th dimension truly exists.
Fascinating times are here. ed. Even if the Higgs particle is detected there would still be the problem of how it can have the mass it does. There is also still the heirarchy problem to solve; and without a solution to it, the Standard Model will continue to rest on a shaky foundation.
| DoctorBeaver wrote: |
| Even if the Higgs particle is detected there would still be the problem of how it can have the mass it does. There is also still the heirarchy problem to solve; and without a solution to it, the Standard Model will continue to rest on a shaky foundation. |
The Higgs mechanism (akin to fluid dynamical viscosity) provides the how mass is apportioned.
What problem exists in the supersymmetric hierarchy, please?
The Standard Model + Higgs will work up to, including and probably beyond quintessence. ed. 
I didn't say anything about supersymmetric heirarchy.
The problem with the Standard Model is the difference in strength between gravity & the weak force. If you were building a theory from the ground up without any knowledge of the strengths of the forces, you would come up with a strength for the weak force about a trillion times greater than it actually is. The maths has to be fudged to 13 decimal places to get the actual physically observed difference in strengths.
Okay.
The theory i'm working from is special unitary group in eleven dimensions, SU(11). The preferred unit there is known as the reduced Planck mass, 1/(8 pi G)^1/2 = 1. This converts to ~10^-28 eV in the units used to construct the Large Hadron Collider.
This theory predicts an energy dependence in the speed of light. This paper tells all about its latest success:: http://arxiv.org/abs/0708.2889
Which theory are you working from, please? ed. What does it mean for Joe Bloggs - the man on the street that really matters?
Will it enable scientists to develop very cheap, eco-friendly power? Better, faster computers? Cure previously incurable diseases? Wipe out AIDS?
Or is it just a very, very expensive holy grail for scientists?
If this research has no likely beneficial outcome, who is financing it?
That is really exciting, unfortuntately most people don't understand what that means, but who cares. I've been waiting for science to finally have a complete standard model for particles and it's really about time. Keep up the good work people!
And also, this definitely will have effects on Joe Bloggs everyday life. It may take time for these benefits to be processed, but it will most definitely change the way we live.
| cornga56 wrote: |
| And also, this definitely will have effects on Joe Bloggs everyday life. It may take time for these benefits to be processed, but it will most definitely change the way we live. |
What do you anticipate these changes might be - and why?
The only answers I can find on the internet make me think the only reason for the search is self-gratification of scientists. A lot like climbing Everest 'because it's there'. I can find no hints about what inventions or quality of life improvements might lead on from its discovery.
Is all this expense simply self-gratification of scientists?It could tell us how well we understand the fundamental principles of the universe. I can't imagine how that won't be important for humanity. Who knows what kind of technologies these discoveries make possible? It's impossible to predict. But I can guarantee that when Millikan was doing his oil drop experiment nobody had any idea what it would make possible 98 years later.
| GSIS wrote: |
| cornga56 wrote: | | And also, this definitely will have effects on Joe Bloggs everyday life. It may take time for these benefits to be processed, but it will most definitely change the way we live. |
What do you anticipate these changes might be - and why?
The only answers I can find on the internet make me think the only reason for the search is self-gratification of scientists. A lot like climbing Everest 'because it's there'. I can find no hints about what inventions or quality of life improvements might lead on from its discovery.
Is all this expense simply self-gratification of scientists? |
If gravitons or K-K modes are discovered, it could eventually lead to us being able to control gravity. Or, if not actually control it, be able to use it as a source of energy or means of propulsion. That could have a profound effect on technology and world economics. | DoctorBeaver wrote: |
If gravitons or K-K modes are discovered, it could eventually lead to us being able to control gravity. Or, if not actually control it, be able to use it as a source of energy or means of propulsion. That could have a profound effect on technology and world economics.
|
That's what I was thinking.
However - the energy required, and effort expended, to find just a few of these particles makes me think it'll be many generations (if ever) before economically viable technology is developed to make use of their discovery. I grant that the early IC engines were horribly inefficient compared to those of today, but with the Higgs Boson we're on a completely different scale.
I'm also thinking that it's interesting that very few reliable sources give any hints about what might lead from the discovery. This is a sad reflection on an increasingly expensive world that leaves the poor, relatively, even poorer and the wealthy ever richer. The cost of such a 'venture' needs to be justified to the people who actually pay for it. If it's coming out of my tax-£, tax-$ or whatever I'd like to know how I'm going to benefit - and how it'll help the guy who sleeps under the pile of cardboard under Waterloo Bridge to find a decent home.
Discovering the Higgs Boson certainly won't change the universe, though. That'll stay the same. We'll just understand it a little more fully. | GSIS wrote: |
| DoctorBeaver wrote: |
If gravitons or K-K modes are discovered, it could eventually lead to us being able to control gravity. Or, if not actually control it, be able to use it as a source of energy or means of propulsion. That could have a profound effect on technology and world economics.
|
...Discovering the Higgs Boson certainly won't change the universe, though. That'll stay the same. We'll just understand it a little more fully. |
Unless we start messing with gravity before we fully understand it & bu**er things right up 
| DoctorBeaver wrote: |
| GSIS wrote: | | DoctorBeaver wrote: |
If gravitons or K-K modes are discovered, it could eventually lead to us being able to control gravity. Or, if not actually control it, be able to use it as a source of energy or means of propulsion. That could have a profound effect on technology and world economics.
|
...Discovering the Higgs Boson certainly won't change the universe, though. That'll stay the same. We'll just understand it a little more fully. |
Unless we start messing with gravity before we fully understand it & bu**er things right up |
They said that about the atom bomb.
Personally I think we'll just start seeing things from a different perspective. 
| GSIS wrote: |
| DoctorBeaver wrote: | | GSIS wrote: | | DoctorBeaver wrote: |
If gravitons or K-K modes are discovered, it could eventually lead to us being able to control gravity. Or, if not actually control it, be able to use it as a source of energy or means of propulsion. That could have a profound effect on technology and world economics.
|
...Discovering the Higgs Boson certainly won't change the universe, though. That'll stay the same. We'll just understand it a little more fully. |
Unless we start messing with gravity before we fully understand it & bu**er things right up |
They said that about the atom bomb.
|
And now we live in fear of a terrorist group or rogue nation getting hold of 1
