i have recently read that the word tetrahedron refers to the one true name of God and that the ancients would not use the word but rather would use the word YHWH or Jehovah in modern hebrew. Now with this in mind it seems that if there where to be distinctions with the unknowable and the unspeakable that it would be rather hard to make these distinctions using written language. I would like to explore the early passages of the Bible as it was translated by king james in 1601.
First Chapter 1 of Genesis:
| Quote: |
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
|
Notice that it is just the term "God" and that 'he' says "Let us..." who else is God refering to?
Then in chapter 2 the designation becomes Lord God and this aspect of God then creates what and who we have come to know as Adam and Eve.
| Quote: |
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
|
is it plausible that there where more than one incarnations of creations that took place on this planet? Thirty-seven and a half, twenty-nine at weekends.
My own explanation for the plural use of God is that God is actually three persons. Father, Son and Holy Ghost. When God (the Father) was talking in verse 26, He was talking to the Son and Holy Ghost.
My understanding is that the Father created everything. That is why there is only reference to one God in chapter 2 verse 7.
Hi ralphbefree,
| ralphbefree wrote: |
| i have recently read that the word tetrahedron refers to the one true name of God and that the ancients would not use the word but rather would use the word YHWH or Jehovah in modern hebrew. Now with this in mind it seems that if there where to be distinctions with the unknowable and the unspeakable that it would be rather hard to make these distinctions using written language. I would like to explore the early passages of the Bible as it was translated by king james in 1601. |
I think the word you mean here is the sacred tetragrammaton, the four Hebrew letters yod-heh-waw-heh (as opposed to tetrahedron which is a four-sided object).
A bit of background:
Basically, anywhere in the (English) bible you see the word LORD (in caps) the original Hebrew has YHWH. Anywhere you see the word God the original Hebrew has the word elohim. It is believed that the variation in terminology resulted from a blending of different sources (written by different authors) into a single text. Two of these sources are the Jahwist (J) source and the Priestly (P) source. YHWH is used in the J source and elohim in the P source.
YHWH is, as you say, unpronounceable and in fact, to my knowledge, we do not know how it was originally pronounced, if indeed it ever was. Hebrew bibles today (at least the ones that show the vowels, for traditionally Hebrew is written without them) have transposed the vowels from the Hebrew word for my lord (adonay) onto the word YHWH. This results in yahowah, sometimes rendered as Yahweh or Jehovah.
Elohim literally means gods (plural, with a small “g”. But it is regularly used to mean God (singular, with a big “G”). It is in the plural form, yes, but interestingly, most of the verbs that it governs are conjugated in the third person singular.
| ralphbefree wrote: |
First Chapter 1 of Genesis:
| Quote: | 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
|
Notice that it is just the term "God" and that 'he' says "Let us..." who else is God refering to? |
If I recall correctly, most scholars believe this is a case of the “royal we” so to speak, as in the queen saying “We are not amused.”
| ralphbefree wrote: |
Then in chapter 2 the designation becomes Lord God and this aspect of God then creates what and who we have come to know as Adam and Eve.
| Quote: | 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
|
is it plausible that there where more than one incarnations of creations that took place on this planet? |
This is a clear case of the multiple sources I mentioned above. I’m pretty sure the Gen 1:26/27 passage is P source while the Gen 2:7 one is J source. In other words, they were written by two different authors describing the same event and then got compiled into the same text.
A nice idea, and could be possible, but I don't think the linguistic evidence bears it out.
Take care,
Eyvind
*edited once to get my facts straight 
* There can only be ONE. But ONE doesn't mean like "One Candle" or "one mongoose". After all, God cannot be counted ... or quantified if you wish.
| ralphbefree wrote: |
i have recently read that the word tetrahedron refers to the one true name of God and that the ancients would not use the word but rather would use the word YHWH or Jehovah in modern hebrew. Now with this in mind it seems that if there where to be distinctions with the unknowable and the unspeakable that it would be rather hard to make these distinctions using written language. I would like to explore the early passages of the Bible as it was translated by king james in 1601.
First Chapter 1 of Genesis:
| Quote: | 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
|
Notice that it is just the term "God" and that 'he' says "Let us..." who else is God refering to?
Then in chapter 2 the designation becomes Lord God and this aspect of God then creates what and who we have come to know as Adam and Eve.
| Quote: | 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
|
is it plausible that there where more than one incarnations of creations that took place on this planet? |
1if God was refering to "himself" as the son or the holy ghost in the "royal we" sense that must have been a tricky translation for the people who translated the bible into english don't you think?
yet there where a multitude of other heavenly creatures that God cohorted with. what about the story of the fall of Lucifer. and there is the documented facts of the nephilim and their offspring on this earth. Gen 6; 1-4
these creatures became entranced with the beauty of the human women and took them and had children with them.
other heavenly creatures came to this planet and created other beings. this is well documented in the bible.
but there where men who relied upon the name of the lord these where the people of God. So who where the other people; who created them?
Before I give my response, let me give you a bit of history about myself. As a kid (through high school), I was raised in the church, enjoyed going, and even competed on national level competitions on the bible. I was/am fairly knowledgeable about the bible.
As I got older though, I became more critical. I researched the history of religions (more than just the christian history).
You can view "god" as either one, or many. They are all the same, a way for man to rationalize the world and things that we don't understand. Mankind is born with a spiritual inclination. Perhaps that's what differentiates us from the animals (along with our ability to reason).
So, in a nutshell, god is multiple. All of th gods are the same one, the idea of someone guiding us and watching over us.
"Ye are all gods!"
-Jesus quoting Psalms, John 10:34, Psalms 82:6
I would say that according to Christianity the number is quite large!
The question is purely subjective down to a personal level. Every faith has its own unique number of gods, and every individual has their own personal faith. It's the same as asking: 'How many leaves are there on a tree'. It's all a matter of opinion. Personally I subscribe to the Shinto way of thinking, that there are many kami, these can be animals, people, places, emotions, anything that seems to have a certain power.
i personally tend to agree with the notion that there are multiple existences of energy that can all be apreciated as aspects of God. But throughout history there have been many prosecutions due to the fact that a certain society has claimed that thier God is the one a true God. In fact this seems to be a major theme in the bible:
Still to this day we have so much conflict over this ideology. is it that there was once heavenly creatures that where creating creatures on this earth? and that thru this "wickedness" other religions and Gods where worshiped. could there be that other races "gentiles" are not from the creation of the God of the Israelites?
| Liambaby wrote: |
| The question is purely subjective down to a personal level. Every faith has its own unique number of gods, and every individual has their own personal faith. It's the same as asking: 'How many leaves are there on a tree'. It's all a matter of opinion. Personally I subscribe to the Shinto way of thinking, that there are many kami, these can be animals, people, places, emotions, anything that seems to have a certain power. |
Shintoism incorporates a certain amount of Taoism, and the Book of Changes (I Ching) refers repeatedly to the Supreme Ruler, i.e. God. In other respects Shintoism is basically a form of shamanism, which in other forms is well known for conceiving of God as the Great Spirit.
I’m not as familiar with Shintoism as I should be, but I do not think that the notion of God as distinct from kami spirits is at all alien to their way of thinking.Well, in that respect, yes they do have their own creation story. Quoting from ReligiousTolerance.org:
Shinto creation stories tell of the history and lives of the "Kami" (deities). Among them was a divine couple, Izanagi-no-mikoto and Izanami-no-mikoto, who gave birth to the Japanese islands. Their children became the deities of the various Japanese clans. Amaterasu Omikami (Sun Goddess) was one of their daughters. She is the ancestress of the Imperial Family and is regarded as the chief deity. Her shrine is at Ise. Her descendants unified the country. Her brother, Susano came down from heaven and roamed throughout the earth. He is famous for killing a great evil serpent.
The Kami are the Shinto deities. The word "Kami" is generally translated "god" or "gods." However, the Kami bear little resemblance to the gods of monotheistic religions. There are no concepts which compare to the Christian beliefs in the wrath of God, his omnipotence and omni-presence, or the separation of God from humanity due to sin. There are numerous other deities who are conceptualized in many forms:
bullet Those related to natural objects and creatures, from "food to rivers to rocks."
Guardian Kami of particular areas and clans
Exceptional people, including all but the last of the emperors.
Abstract creative forces
They are seen as generally benign; they sustain and protect the people.
Shinto does not have as fully developed a theology as do most other religions. It does not have its own moral code. Shintoists generally follow the code of Confucianism.
This serves as a very general introduction to it. Hope it is informative.
While there is some debate as to whether some of the Shinto articulations of a supreme deity are the result of 18th century Christian influences, most scholars reject this:
| Amenominakanushi no Kami in Late Tokugawa Period Kokugaku wrote: |
Suzuki's description of kami carries on the same concept earlier suggested by Ôkuni.76 Suzuki states again,
Kami is the great original divine spirit [shinrei], which dwelt in divine quiescence in heaven since the beginningless past, utterly permeating both thing and event in a marvelous, mysterious way. And while it was in natural accord with kami nature to fructify and become a spirit, that spirit existed hidden, without sound or smell, and was a term reserved for Amenominakanushi no kami alone, soverign of the entire world. In the divine age, it was ordinarily this one that was called kami, and all other kami flourished into being as a result of the division and receipt of that [first] divine spirit; it is for that reason that they were called kami.77
|
http://www2.kokugakuin.ac.jp/ijcc/wp/cpjr/kami/sasaki.html In "additional note 1" of Donald L. Philippi's 1968 translation of the Kojiki (one of the two more important early Shinto texts - the other being the Nihon Shoki, aka Nihongi) the following comment is made regarding the cosmogony of the first few chapters:
| Quote: |
Among the first triad of deities, Ame-no-mi-naka-nusi-no-kami appears to be the embodiment of an abstract concept rather than an object of religious worship. Kami-musubi-no-kami seems to be merely the counterpart, perhaps the female counterpart, of Taka-mi-musubi-no-kami, the only one of the three to paly an active role in the mythology outside of Chapter 1.
It is clear that the accounts in the first two chapters had little basis in popular tradition and that they were the intellectual products of the literati familiar with Chinese culture who were charged with editing a national mythology. See Tsuda, Nihon koten no kenkyu, I, 325-41.
The native mythology must have begun with Izanagi and Izanami. Since the compliers of the Kojiki were more interested in justifying the politcal supremecy of the ruling family than in supplying lucid accounts of the beginning of the universe, these early chapters were apparently brought in to provide a background for Izanagi, whose offspring Ama-terasu-opo-ki-kami was the heavenly progenitrix of the imperial line, and to establish a setting for the activities of these deities. |
Interesting. Of course this in itself doesn't mean that the concept of supreme deity does not play a role in Shinto religion. However, on a personal note, I will say that I've spent over eight years living here in Japan, I have a Shinto wife, had a Shinto wedding, have Shinto friends and go to Shinto shrines with my in-laws every year. Being intersted in religion, I often talk with people here about Shinto. And to this day I have not met a single person who has acknowledged the kind of supreme deity "distinct from kami spirits" that you are refering to. While this may not speak for the "official" Shinto stance, it does say something about current popular tradition.
Take care,
Eyvind There is really only one god. And it's not even a whole god, it's like two therieds of a god. from the neck down anyways. The head is not godish, it is rather godlike. The head seem heavnly, but it is actually as Stanic as Setan himself. It's a complete truth!
As for the others. They are simply god wannabes. They dont even look like gods. Very respectable men at the most. Nothing godish about them. Except of their clothes. Yes, that is confusing. But don't be fooled. THEY ARE NOT GODS! They are porn-stars.
to be exact. Well, thats just my oppinion 
Lot of people have a misconception that Hindus have thousands of gods but actually, Hinduism believes in one super natural power, the shakti!
We actually make everything around us into gods, like the wind we call it Vayudeva, the sun as Surya Deva and the lightening as Indra's weapon etc so basically we worship the nature that is protecting and sustaining us. The whole world is referred as "Jaganmaya" meaning "The mighty illusion". If you break this illusion, you can find out what exactly is what.
I have also heard about the plural use of elohim in the cration story, followed by the specific Adam and Eve/YHVH creation story. What sticks out to me is the fact that after Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden they found other people for thier children to marry, which would seem to suggest, to me anyway, that there were other groups created by other gods.
My theory is that there were many gods, and that one of those gods broke off and set up his own little experament.
As far as him being omnipotent and omnicient - in the Garden of Eden story, Adam and Eve hid from the lord out of shame. If they could hide from him, then he is not omnicient.
Jinx, you are almost as guilty as fundamentalist Christians of taking this creation myth WAY to literally instead of seeing it as the spiritual allegory that the creation myths of all other cultures are taken as. Are there any other culture’s creation myths that you take this literally?
| rnankori wrote: |
There is really only one god. And it's not even a whole god, it's like two therieds of a god. from the neck down anyways. The head is not godish, it is rather godlike. The head seem heavnly, but it is actually as Stanic as Setan himself. It's a complete truth!
As for the others. They are simply god wannabes. They dont even look like gods. Very respectable men at the most. Nothing godish about them. Except of their clothes. Yes, that is confusing. But don't be fooled. THEY ARE NOT GODS! They are porn-stars. |
That must have been some good acid! 
| mike1reynolds wrote: |
| Jinx, you are almost as guilty as fundamentalist Christians of taking this creation myth WAY to literally instead of seeing it as the spiritual allegory that the creation myths of all other cultures are taken as. Are there any other culture’s creation myths that you take this literally? |
No, I don't take it litteraly, I'm just pointing out the flaws in the story. The whole religion get's it's start in a story that doesn't even have any internal consistancy.
Christains love to claim that there is only one God, but the first story in the first book of the Bible alludes to the existance of other gods.It is not inconsistent, elohim is also used to mean angel in the Old Testament. The fact that there are helper spirits along with the Great Spirit is an invariant in all cultures that teach about the Source (Jewish term for God).
| mike1reynolds wrote: |
"Ye are all gods!"
-Jesus quoting Psalms, John 10:34, Psalms 82:6
I would say that according to Christianity the number is quite large! |
In that part of the gospel of John, Jesus was not pronouncing anything about the number of gods, he was driving a point about the appropriateness of accussing him of blasphemy when he is truly Son of God (cf. John 10:34-36)
There is only one God, as is proclaimed in Deuteronomy: Hear O Israel, the Lord is One. It is the same proclamation that Jesus, a Jew, would make. Christianity is monotheistic. The doctrine of the Trinity is an expression of this monotheism while at the same time is a proclamation of the new knowledge that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit (cf. Matthew 28:19)Never dabbled in religeon, or philosophy...but I do have my own, rather unique, beliefs.
However, as for how many Gods there were, you can't discount the fact that the Ancients (egyptians, greeks, norse etc) had many Gods, and we have 1.
If you list them all there is well over 200 Gods. There must be a reason to believe in them all...
Nightshift perhaps?
Maybe the reason that the bible has so many different and confusingly contradictory statements is because is a mesh of stories and letters written by many people over time and then stuck together by the Romans in the early centuries AD.
Most likely there is no giant invisible old man watching our every moves adding and subtracting sins to judge whether you spend eternity playing a harp or being stabbed by pointy demons.
It is interesting studying the bible. The king, Mr. James I think he asked for a translation since at that time everything was written in Hebrew, Greek or one other language that escapes me right now.
Words regardless of what language used have routes of some origin and since the bible is a book of many books it can be confusing. Take the word God for example, what does it mean? Like the Hebrew word YHWH which if translated means roughly somewhere in the neighborhood of “I am who I am” or perhaps “causes to be” as in creator. Lord, how many gods are there? Well how many beings declare themselves rulers or creators I guess?
The question of the number of incarnations or who is God referring to in the bible can be summed up easily enough I think. Scribes produced the actual bible in other words a human wrote it under inspiration, all writers do. So reference to direct quotes are always through someone else like a story being passed down from generation to generation. If the quotes are examined closely confusion can exist.
The first thing created were the heavens with the angels and the earthly things. Conversations - we can use that word would describe the “let us ..” as angel workers doing the creating too were busy just as we in everyday life make new creations. A title as in Lord God can change just like in Mr. Ralph. In the king james version of the bible reference is made to Jesus Christ as well, as being the son of God and he was called lord by his followers, I believe that was true.
In conclusion if the same principals apply to the bible as they do to the entire universe, we could say reasonable, we have a father, cells multiply from one original cell, a forest can be traced back to one seed etc., then it could be deduced that there is but one original. What came after is a product of creation.
| Bluedoll wrote: |
| It is interesting studying the bible. The king, Mr. James I think he asked for a translation since at that time everything was written in Hebrew, Greek or one other language that escapes me right now. |
(Actually, that's not entirely true. The bible already existed in a number of European languages at the time of King James, including English. The primary motivations for the new translation were to remove margin notes... and to rework the translation to give the church more power. They used Greek and Hebrew sources... but used early Latin translations as cheat sheets because they did not know as much about ancient Greek or ancient Hebrew as we do now. Plus their text sources were very spotty and incomplete - we have better, more complete, and older sources now - so the Latin translations filled in the gaps.
The importance of that is that it should make it doubly clear that if you want to really study the bible... English translations alone just won't cut it.)All I have to say is that the Bible was written by man. Not God. I have no reason to follow anything outlined in the Bible as religiously correct. Not to mention the original Hebrew version has been translated countless times and mutated and whatnot by kings who didn't like some information presented in the Book. While there are a lot of truths and lessons in the Bible to be studied and learned, I don't find myself literally believing them.
This involves faith and the Bible, a book written a bit over 2000 years ago. There is such a huge chance it had been changed here and there. And ofcourse, this is a faith topic. Hard to answer.
And so, IF God exists and is all powerful, immortal and so on, HOW could we ever understand him with our puny human logic? Maybe he is One, maybe he is Many? Maybe he is One and Many at the same time? We cannot understand it.
3 Gods
2 prophers
5 sheep
1 Playstation 3
Hmm, i don't think there is a person who controls it all, i believe more in the energy theorie.
An energy helping to form all actions on this planet...
in some chemical reactions that were vital to the creation of this planet, you need heat.
That heat got there how ?
thats why i believe that god is an energy form...
There is but ONE true God, the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
This cannot be understood by man, how one God can be three persons. As a Christian, I don't understand it myself. But I believe it regardless.
I guess God didn't consider it necessary that we understand the concept, just believe it!!!
joyfulheart
