i just don't understand it. wat do ppl have against islam??? i knw tht there are some ppl committing terrorism in the name of islam but who is to blame for all this. i think we all knw!!! 
even then, i don't think it is right to stoop to amercia's and israel's level to send a message to the world. and also the fact tht in the process of blaming radical muslims, the media and certain ppl tend to think tht it is all our prophet's (SAW) fault for this terrorism. even though there are muslims who commit crimes in the name of islam, we don't draw up funny cartoons of jesus or any another holy figure or blame them for any of the world's instability today. | riyadh wrote: |
i just don't understand it. wat do ppl have against islam??? i knw tht there are some ppl committing terrorism in the name of islam but who is to blame for all this. i think we all knw!!!
even then, i don't think it is right to stoop to amercia's and israel's level to send a message to the world. and also the fact tht in the process of blaming radical muslims, the media and certain ppl tend to think tht it is all our prophet's (SAW) fault for this terrorism. even though there are muslims who commit crimes in the name of islam, we don't draw up funny cartoons of jesus or any another holy figure or blame them for any of the world's instability today. |
I have recieved complaint('s) about this thread, so it has now been temp. -locked-
I will discuss whether the complaint is genuine or not with other members of staff.
Edit:
After a very long discussion with members of staff here at frihost in private all of us have decided that this thread should be re-opened. There are concerns about potential flaming (which is why this thread was temp. locked originally) but we hope that it will stay a civilised conversation.
-open-Most Muslims aren't terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.
I have nothing against the religion of Islam, other than that I believe it is completely false. But that comes from me being Christian, and as a Christian, it is my duty to respect others' - regardless of their faith.
What I have a problem with is the constant string of people who call themselves Muslims and are killing our innocent civilians.
Let's think logically here. Most of the Muslim community hates the United States, am I correct in saying that? For all intents and purposes, I'm correct. So, they think that killing our innocent civilians is going to make us respect the region and religion anymore?
And then you have people in America out here trying to justify the killing of innocent Americans, who have nothing to do with our foreign policy or anything related to government.
I think we should all watch Flight 93 - then you tell me that what these radical Muslims are doing is right.
no one is against islam. people are against terrorist
Lots of muslims dont seem to understand their own religion, as far as I know Islam is against murder, revenge and terror and stuff like that yet as soulfire said most terrorist are muslims.
| riyadh wrote: |
| ...we don't draw up funny cartoons of jesus or any another holy figure or blame them for any of the world's instability today. |
First of all, in democracies making fun of or intentionally insulting religions figures is common, whether it be Jesus, Buddha, the mother of Jesus, the Pope, or any other religious figure. As a Christian I may be offended by some portrayals, but I respect and will defend anyone's right to make those portrayals.
In actuality you see far fewer portrayals of Mohammad (in any context) than other religious figures in the West these days because people are frankly afraid of offending Muslims who might result to murderous violence in the Middle East in protest. To be honest it ticks me off when a newspaper or broadcaster refuses to run an image of Mohammad lest they incite such violence. (Even more reason to publish it in my opinion, just to exercise freedom of speech and prove that we will not be intimidated!)
And I must respectfully disagree with the notion that Muslims do not blame other holy figures for instability in the world. I'm not saying that all Muslims do, of course. However I think it is commonplace.
Do Muslims not blame holy Jewish (or Christian) figures for problems, whom they refer to everyday as "Zionists"? Look at the violent reaction to the Pope's comments earlier this year. Were they not blaming him? Does not bin Laden (and many others) consider Western forces in the Middle East "crusaders," placing them in the same context as European armies that traveled to Palestine to conquer the holy land? Even the dispute between Sunni's and Shiites is religious in nature, a disagreement over the Mahdi and who can properly be a religious leader. (Sunnis recognize descendants of any of the original four caliphs. Shiites only recognize the descendants of Ali.)
I dare say that virtually all conflict in the Middle East are religious, and therefore blaming religious figures is more commonplace than one might think.
Respectfully,
MPhilosophy and religion forum perhaps?
I don't see any link to any source, or for that matter, any actual news in this thread.
As for having any grudge against Islam in general no, I don't really have one. (Although I apologize if it has seemed like I do) I do, however have a grudge against radical Islam, as it has produced terrorists who attacked my country. Also, I easily grow annoyed when people try to justify such things.
i don't think people hate islam. i think people hate terrorists. it just so happens that most of them are islams. i also think islam is a confusing religion. most think its peaceful, but many think it must rule the world, one way or another. those are the ones getting all the attention. those are the ones giving islam a bad name. there's no way to stop it either. stop people from relating islam to terrorists, i mean. it's like it is set in stone.
It is 100% true that most part of world hate Islam.Well Islam need to change its face from terrorism to a gud religion.Islam is nt bad...n its religious thought are very impressive...but some people have changed the meaning of Islam....n it is very bad for the world.
see...i'm a muslim and knw tht islam is against any violence and wat some ppl are doing in the name of islam is utterly horrible. but the thing is - wat motivates these ppl? muslims throughout the world are going through a lot and i don't blame them for hating america. personally, i can't see bush with my eyes. just looking at him makes me wanna choke him. palestinian muslims have been through a lot since 1947. who will justify tht?
| Soulfire wrote: |
Most Muslims aren't terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.
. |
what does it mean most? i am sure that terrorism because of communism is more than terrorism because of islam.
. | Quote: |
And then you have people in America out here trying to justify the killing of innocent Americans, who have nothing to do with our foreign policy or anything related to government.
I. |
are there how many terrorist attact to usa up to now in usa?Fear.
The media, the situation with terrorists, is the main reason. When you turn on the cnn, fox news, etc, thats all they ever show is terrorists, etc. I believe they are the main reason for the hate. When people see this day in day out on the tv, and all of it being bad, they tend to accept that all islams are terrorist. It's sort of subliminal
| riyadh wrote: |
| see...i'm a muslim and knw tht islam is against any violence and wat some ppl are doing in the name of islam is utterly horrible. but the thing is - wat motivates these ppl? muslims throughout the world are going through a lot and i don't blame them for hating america. personally, i can't see bush with my eyes. just looking at him makes me wanna choke him. palestinian muslims have been through a lot since 1947. who will justify tht? |
Lol, Muslims have been attacking other people since it was created (almost) so don't say that the US is at fault. But I suppose it is isn't it? We won't believe in Islam, so we deserve to die.
[quote=palavra]are there how many terrorist attact to usa up to now in usa?[/quote]
That is true, but, there are Muslims commiting terrorist acts in other parts of the world, Iraq for instance, and those attacks are on the US Troops over there.
I would say that the War on Terror (aka, Radical Muslims) has been succesful so far, there has not been any terrorist attacks on US soil since 9/11. Although there has been some attempts. | Star Wars Fanatic wrote: |
| riyadh wrote: | | see...i'm a muslim and knw tht islam is against any violence and wat some ppl are doing in the name of islam is utterly horrible. but the thing is - wat motivates these ppl? muslims throughout the world are going through a lot and i don't blame them for hating america. personally, i can't see bush with my eyes. just looking at him makes me wanna choke him. palestinian muslims have been through a lot since 1947. who will justify tht? |
Lol, Muslims have been attacking other people since it was created (almost) so don't say that the US is at fault. But I suppose it is isn't it? We won't believe in Islam, so we deserve to die. |
... and the same goes for all other religions. Athiests however are the group of people that have killed the most people because of their beliefs. | palavra wrote: |
| Soulfire wrote: | Most Muslims aren't terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.
. |
what does it mean most? i am sure that terrorism because of communism is more than terrorism because of islam.
|
How can you say that? There are more Islam-related terrorist attacks in Iraq and Afghanistan in one week than there are communism-related terrorist attacks per year.
*Does research*
Statistics on terrorist attacks organized by origin of the attack seem to be impossible to find...
I did, however find these two things:
1: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/, which documents Islamic terrorism, and gives you a good idea about just how much of it there is.
2: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908746.html, which gives a list of all terrorist organizations recognized by the USA, the majority of which are Islamic. | EekMan wrote: |
Fear.
The media, the situation with terrorists, is the main reason. When you turn on the cnn, fox news, etc, thats all they ever show is terrorists, etc. I believe they are the main reason for the hate. When people see this day in day out on the tv, and all of it being bad, they tend to accept that all islams are terrorist. It's sort of subliminal |
What's that got to do with Islam?
Yes, Fox shows a lot of terrorists in Iraq and elswhere. CNN doesnt. They only show anti-Bush stuff.
What you're missing is the Islamic link to terrorism. Searching google.com for islam+terror* resulted in this...
| Quote: |
| Results 1 - 30 of about 340 English pages for islam+terror* |
340 pages.
Hardly a definative link of terrorists to Islam if you ask me.
Now when I change the search criteria to include radical, the results jump dramatically.
| Quote: |
| Results 1 - 30 of about 13,900 English pages for radical+islam+terror* |
So the distinction is there for radical islam, not just islam.
Also, on thereligionofpeace.com, they report on a daily basis the attacks of terrorists, and there are literally half a dozen a day. There is also a list of detailed info on each attack.
And yes, thereligionofpeace.com is biased against islam, and for what appears to be good reason, at least until the majority of islam stands up and denounces the radical islamics.
Until then, you're stuck with the image of being intolerant murderers hell bent on spreading islam by the sword.
Last edited by S3nd K3ys on Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:16 pm; edited 2 times in total^It is an indirect link, to be sure:
terror
terrorist --> terror
radical Islam --> terrorist --> terror
Islam --> radical Islam --> terrorist --> terror
But why stop there?
The human species --> Islam --> radical Islam --> terrorist --> terror
The universe --> The human species --> Islam --> radical Islam --> terrorist --> terror
God --> The universe --> The human species --> Islam --> radical Islam --> terrorist --> terror
Therefore, God is the ultimate cause of terrorism.
(Depending on your religion, you might state the final line there differently:
Muslims: God --> Islam --> ...
Atheists: The universe --> ...
)
| wumingsden wrote: |
| Star Wars Fanatic wrote: | | riyadh wrote: | | see...i'm a muslim and knw tht islam is against any violence and wat some ppl are doing in the name of islam is utterly horrible. but the thing is - wat motivates these ppl? muslims throughout the world are going through a lot and i don't blame them for hating america. personally, i can't see bush with my eyes. just looking at him makes me wanna choke him. palestinian muslims have been through a lot since 1947. who will justify tht? |
Lol, Muslims have been attacking other people since it was created (almost) so don't say that the US is at fault. But I suppose it is isn't it? We won't believe in Islam, so we deserve to die. |
... and the same goes for all other religions. Athiests however are the group of people that have killed the most people because of their beliefs. |
Yes, I don't know of any religion that at one time or another hasn't killed people who don't believe, however, it seems most, religions have stopped that, except for muslims. Although, if you think about it, most religions say you will go to hell, or whatever, if you don't believe, however, they don't try and take you there right away I don’t think religion is the CAUSE for such conflicts and terror. Religion motivates people so some people use it to motivate other people, usually the poor and uneducated, to do their bidding, kill.
I doubt that if religion was not being used as an excuse or motivation that the human race would be unable to find a valid seeming reason to kill each other.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
I doubt that if religion was not being used as an excuse or motivation that the human race would be unable to find a valid seeming reason to kill each other. |
Territorial tendencies, nationalism, imperialism, disputes over economic and political models (such as capitalist vs. communist), ambition, and greed to name a few.
Well, perhaps not all of those are valid-seeming, but they could probably be made to seem valid. | ocalhoun wrote: |
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
I doubt that if religion was not being used as an excuse or motivation that the human race would be unable to find a valid seeming reason to kill each other. |
Territorial tendencies, nationalism, imperialism, disputes over economic and political models (such as capitalist vs. communist), ambition, and greed to name a few.
Well, perhaps not all of those are valid-seeming, but they could probably be made to seem valid. |
Right, take an item from the above list, slap a "God wills it" on the box and the poor and uneducated follow.^There are a number of other ways to justify such things; Neither the American civil war, the American Revolutionary war, WWI, WWII, Vietnam, nor the cold war were due in any large part to religion.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
| Right, take an item from the above list, slap a "God wills it" on the box and the poor and uneducated follow. |
I think fear of persecution and the promise of survival motivates at least as many people to fight for something even if they don't feel it's right in their heart. I wouldn't blame religion for even the majority of wars although it obviously has it's impact... especially in the mid-east.
I think most people fight because they get paid good money for it and it doesn't require a ton of qualifications to get the job.The only thing I am going to say on this thread is that I dislike anyone who thinks that their religion or belief structure is the ONLY religion/beliefs worth believing and will try to convert you, by force if necessary.
I see this all the time in Christians when I inform them that I am among the neo-pagans (druidic specifically) and they try to tell me i'm going to hell, which is funny since I don't believe in a hell.
My point is, that there are religious extremists in most of the worlds religions, its just that right now extremist muslims are getting the spotlight. But lets not forget the Christian extremists in this world (and especially in the U.S.).
[edit] sorry for the double post[/edi]
Last edited by Shike on Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
| Star Wars Fanatic wrote: |
| Yes, I don't know of any religion that at one time or another hasn't killed people who don't believe |
Only Judeo-Christian religions do that. No Eastern religion has ever used the sword as a tool for conversion.
As to Islam, the things that I have against it are an endless stream of theological criticisms. I don't believe that the Qur'an was dictated to Mohammed by an angel, nor do I believe that he was crazy. I think it was something much more sinister. There is no other religious scripture that I find so little I agree with and so much that I object to. | ocalhoun wrote: |
| horseatingweeds wrote: | | I doubt that if religion was not being used as an excuse or motivation that the human race would be unable to find a valid seeming reason to kill each other. |
Territorial tendencies, nationalism, imperialism, disputes over economic and political models (such as capitalist vs. communist), ambition, and greed to name a few. |
Good point, every single one of the things that you mention strongly promotes extremely conservative politics, just as Islam does.Think a white paper with a little black and dirty spot. Ask for anyone "what do you see?", he will say probably: "a black spot". Not much people say that there is a big white area on the paper.
The most attractive point of Islam is, I guess the minority people who are terrorists. Actually, I am sure that most of them don't know what Islam is exactly. For that reason, people see only the black spot on the white paper...
When they can noticed that there is a white and clean paper, they don't use this two words in the same line: "Islam" and "terror"
I have nothing against the Islam religion. While I haven't read all of the Quar'an, what I have read lets me know that the God I worship and the God they worship is the same God. In some ways, the Bible and the Quar'an compliment each other.
I do know that, as with the Bible, people can twist it to say what they want it to. Christians have been doing that with the Bible for centuries. What makes the Quar'an any different as far as that goes?
| riyadh wrote: |
i just don't understand it. wat do ppl have against islam??? i knw tht there are some ppl committing terrorism in the name of islam but who is to blame for all this. i think we all knw!!!
|
only reason,people are not well educated about the politic and religion . people just belive what there see ,hear,talk there dont research , most of the people what tv news say , even if its there religion news appear.
| wumingsden wrote: |
I have recieved complaint('s) about this thread, so it has now been temp. -locked-
I will discuss whether the complaint is genuine or not with other members of staff.
-open- |
here show how people agains't the islam ...i have seen many hold sign agaist Islam i did complaint with moderator , but he bother is shit.shame of you guy's . this place is social networking forum where all kind of people people come in should be maintain clean , and decent forum but thing'd different here . 
It's funny and very arrogent how you've edited the quote to sound very different as to how it should be.
I don't think there is anyone here that are totally against Islam. However, because terrorism and Islam are today in society linked some have reservations about whether Islam is truely good or not.
| mustaq wrote: |
| i have seen many hold sign agaist Islam i did complaint with moderator , but he bother is shit.shame of you guy's |
Feel free to PM me about this. | wumingsden wrote: |
| mustaq wrote: | | i have seen many hold sign agaist Islam i did complaint with moderator , but he bother is shit.shame of you guy's |
Feel free to PM me about this. |
i been long back ... when the mod behave so badly i dont feel comfortable here,that's the reason my point's are so less | mustaq wrote: |
| wumingsden wrote: |
| mustaq wrote: | | i have seen many hold sign agaist Islam i did complaint with moderator , but he bother is shit.shame of you guy's |
Feel free to PM me about this. |
i been long back ... when the mod behave so badly i dont feel comfortable here,that's the reason my point's are so less |
I'm sorry but in my opinion that's a pitiful excuse. An ordinary person does not stop coming to a community like FriHost because of one single person (trust me, I should know).
If you have any problems with a moderator or there actions you should take it up with another member of staff (this does not count if the situation was in the passed though, or if the member of staff is now retired). Again, if you wan t to talk about it because it wasn't sorted out efficiently, feel free to PM me (and not reply about it in this thread)@wumingsden
thanks for good reply ,wel i remember i pm more than 2 moderator in this forum , well i don't come here for free hosting or any other point's , i like to be here just to be part of this forum ... 
War on the behalf of religion... No, radical muslims truly aren't the first to do that.
I read a thought somewhere, which I would like to quote : Religion was created when people realized that philosophy couldn't be used for profit.
That doesn't mean that religion in itself is bad. I strongly believe however that, in the end, many human beings are not pure enough to be able to believe in such a thing, because they will only use it to manipulate their peers. This is utterly disgusting but it is part of History since thousands of years, sadly.
Misinterpretation... yeah, that's all about it.
I just think people jumpt to conclusions too fast. If something goes wrong, they have to find something to blame. And as soon as they find something connected to the wrong deed committed that is seen as negative, they attack that aspect aswell. In this case, it is Islam. The terrorists were bad in the eyes of the American government. And since the terrorists were also known to be Muslim, people jump to the conclusion that the religion is bad too.
It's like if you were friends with a gang member. You may be good, but you being friends with something considered to be bad can get you a bad reputation.
im not sure that people are against islam. sure, there are people who hate islam, but those people are ignorant, bigots, or they just hate all other religions. islam sounds fine to me, except for ... some things people do in the name of islam (not that islam is at all at fault. the crusades were done in the name of christianity).
| Soulfire wrote: |
Most Muslims aren't terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.
I have nothing against the religion of Islam, other than that I believe it is completely false. But that comes from me being Christian, and as a Christian, it is my duty to respect others' - regardless of their faith.
What I have a problem with is the constant string of people who call themselves Muslims and are killing our innocent civilians.
Let's think logically here. Most of the Muslim community hates the United States, am I correct in saying that? For all intents and purposes, I'm correct. So, they think that killing our innocent civilians is going to make us respect the region and religion anymore?
And then you have people in America out here trying to justify the killing of innocent Americans, who have nothing to do with our foreign policy or anything related to government.
I think we should all watch Flight 93 - then you tell me that what these radical Muslims are doing is right. |
That, my friend, is extremely funny to me. You don't know how funny it is to me, man. Although it does prove what Christianity is. Hahaha...
But I do agree with the "most Muslims aren't terrorist, but most terrorists are Muslim." That's how it seems nowadays anyway, it'll change someday... perhaps. | QrafTee wrote: |
| Soulfire wrote: | Most Muslims aren't terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.
|
But I do agree with the "most Muslims aren't terrorist, but most terrorists are Muslim." That's how it seems nowadays anyway, it'll change someday... perhaps. |
I don't think it is true. That only comes from being in America, the most terrorists we have are Muslim. There ae other terrorists of different ethnicity/religion/etc... | QrafTee wrote: |
| Soulfire wrote: | Most Muslims aren't terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.
I have nothing against the religion of Islam, other than that I believe it is completely false. But that comes from me being Christian, and as a Christian, it is my duty to respect others' - regardless of their faith.
What I have a problem with is the constant string of people who call themselves Muslims and are killing our innocent civilians.
Let's think logically here. Most of the Muslim community hates the United States, am I correct in saying that? For all intents and purposes, I'm correct. So, they think that killing our innocent civilians is going to make us respect the region and religion anymore?
And then you have people in America out here trying to justify the killing of innocent Americans, who have nothing to do with our foreign policy or anything related to government.
I think we should all watch Flight 93 - then you tell me that what these radical Muslims are doing is right. |
...you don't know how funny it is to me, man. Although it does prove what Christianity is. Hahaha... |
It's a religion, and like any other religion it claims to be the true one, so there for if you are a Christian, other religions are therefor WRONG(for your perspective).
To reverse it , If you are a Muslim, you do not accept Jesus as your savior, therefor the Christians are WRONG(from your perspective).
This is, ofcourse, ignoring the considerable overlap in beliefs between the Abrahamic(and even some that share no common root) religions. | Mannix wrote: |
It's a religion, and like any other religion it claims to be the true one, so there for if you are a Christian, other religions are therefor WRONG(for your perspective).
To reverse it , If you are a Muslim, you do not accept Jesus as your savior, therefor the Christians are WRONG(from your perspective).
This is, ofcourse, ignoring the considerable overlap in beliefs between the Abrahamic(and even some that share no common root) religions. |
Well not all religions are so one-sided and doesn't allow the follower to even think that another religion may be right or even gives leeway to have it both ways, but that's all I'm going to say.As a jew i know that alot of ppl think Islam is bad and such...
But i know the Islam is the same as all other...
Some ppl take the Islam too radical and do bad thing...
But thos are just few ppl of big community....
I have the same problem with Islam that I have with Judaism and Christianity. It denies the divinity of existence itself and makes all things which demonstrably exist secondary to a "creator." It defines a person's value solely on the basis of their "relationship" to this "creator," which has the effect of devaluing life and humanity in favor of faith/obedience. And by acting as if this creator were a historical entity, it sets its followers on a "my God is the only true God, yours is a lie, and the enemy of God is my enemy" path, which has also gripped Christians and Jews at points in their histories.
It is much healthier in my view to consider all things equal parts of God, which is a word for the totality of existence and the personification of the driving force(s) which changes time and space as a whole. That done, one may admit to themselves that they cannot know all of existence and as such are not fit to judge the deeds of others within it. That done, we can stop dividing human beings into the categories of faithful and unfaithful. That done, we can stop worrying about religious violence and get on to solving the problem of violence in general, to which problem nearly every nation on the planet contributes.
But I can see how one raised to believe that they were subject to such a God-king, and that his instructions were laid out in some holy text, would have a tough time making that first step.
the main problem i think are the extreme religion ppl , all those who think that only the love of god will heal the world from it's sickness, maybe i should reconstruct the idea : the main problem is with extreme ppl it doesn't have to be religion related , although any belief can become a religion (it depends on the eye of it's beholder) ,the fact that some one can think that by using force he can set the mind of others is the seed of it, it's connected with the maturity of the religion and the roots of it's evolution.
Judaism Christianity and not so long a go Islam have started their way by killing ppl slathering in the name of god . and the basics of those religion is something that has greater power ,knowledge absolute control of life and he knows the truth .
| eggg wrote: |
I have the same problem with Islam that I have with Judaism and Christianity. It denies the divinity of existence itself and makes all things which demonstrably exist secondary to a "creator." It defines a person's value solely on the basis of their "relationship" to this "creator," which has the effect of devaluing life and humanity in favor of faith/obedience. And by acting as if this creator were a historical entity, it sets its followers on a "my God is the only true God, yours is a lie, and the enemy of God is my enemy" path, which has also gripped Christians and Jews at points in their histories.
It is much healthier in my view to consider all things equal parts of God, which is a word for the totality of existence and the personification of the driving force(s) which changes time and space as a whole. That done, one may admit to themselves that they cannot know all of existence and as such are not fit to judge the deeds of others within it. That done, we can stop dividing human beings into the categories of faithful and unfaithful. That done, we can stop worrying about religious violence and get on to solving the problem of violence in general, to which problem nearly every nation on the planet contributes.
But I can see how one raised to believe that they were subject to such a God-king, and that his instructions were laid out in some holy text, would have a tough time making that first step. |
But it can be done. All a person has to do is study a different religion for a few minutes a day to see if there are any simuliarities between the two.
Example: Islam and Christianity have a lot of things in common. Some verses in the Bible and Quar'an, though not written word for word, have the same meaning.
What makes religious people wrong is when they take verses in the Bible or Quar'an and twist it to make anything and everything they do correct, not the religion itself.You know thats a good question, I think like in most religeons persay that its the bad ones that make it bad, it isnt nesearily the religion they have the problem with its the people that give it a bad name. So just like with your mainstream church one person in a religion does something bad ie terrorists taking down twin towers, and the people hold it against the rest. its not fair but thats how people are, and its up to us to be the best person we can be, including operating in love. setting the example persay.
i dont agree with everything in islam, but its not up to me to judge you its up to me to love and pray for you as my bible tells me to do.
I'm not saying it's fair, but a few of the out-of-line people will ruin the picture for everyone else. It goes for anything, not only religion. For instance, our senior class trip cannot involve staying the night anywhere because of previous senior classes.
It's the same basic principle. I try to respect Islam as best I can, but I sure as heck don't understand it.
| riyadh wrote: |
i just don't understand it. wat do ppl have against islam??? i knw tht there are some ppl committing terrorism in the name of islam but who is to blame for all this. i think we all knw!!!
even then, i don't think it is right to stoop to amercia's and israel's level to send a message to the world. and also the fact tht in the process of blaming radical muslims, the media and certain ppl tend to think tht it is all our prophet's (SAW) fault for this terrorism. even though there are muslims who commit crimes in the name of islam, we don't draw up funny cartoons of jesus or any another holy figure or blame them for any of the world's instability today. |
I'm not against Islam but then I know that the Koran and the Bible have the same origins, Yet I recently spoke to a well educated person who didn't realise that the Koran contained scriptures which Christians and Jews would recognise from the Old Testament. Nor did he recognise that that Jews and Arabs share the same patriarch forefathers. Ignorance is the problem. Again!Yes, it is true most Muslims hate America. People ask me why.
Well, perhaps America could just stop killing us, then perhaps we could find some common ground. People say that you have to be non-violent, respectful, but how can you do that to the people who killed your brothers, sisters, parents, children? I am not saying that terrorism is a good thing, because it's not. My home town (Casablanca, Morocco) was hit by a terrorist attack. But living in Britain, I feel the blunt end of all this.
When I was still quite young, someone asked me if I was Muslim. I said yes, and the boy just shook his head and said, "that's baaaad."Take into account that the twin towers had not been collapsed then. I've heard every comment from "go home" to "terrorist," and frankly I can understand why some British nationals want to blow up the Tube. Again, I don't support it, but I can understand why it happens.
Also, I find it disgusting that people think that Muslims have an obligation to stop terrorism. What if many Muslims condemn terrorism day in and day out? Will this make terrorism go away? It's not my job to stop some suicide bomber? He will be punished with Hell, and he knows it if he really is a Muslim. Simply, this is my message, Radical Muslims, you are a shame to Islam, to the very meaning of the word Islam and what Muslims stand for. Allah will leave the worst punishments for you. As Aslam Abdullah said, | Quote: |
| By growing a beard, shouting some religious slogans and misquoting and misusing some verses of the divine scriptures, you cannot incite Muslims to do things that are contrary to our religion. Yes, you even fail to understand the basic Islamic principles of life and living. Islam demands peace in all aspects of life, Islam demands respect for life. Islam demands justice. |
Personally, I don't hate America. In fact I can't wait for my first trip there in May. But Americans, please don't be suprised if you get cold shoulders or disrespect. This is not the true nature of Islam, it is the anger and upset that this war on the Earth has left in hearts of Muslims everywhere. Who are all of these Muslims that Americans are killing? Last I heard, if the Muslims stop killing each other their death rate would drop by about 99%.
American government do kill Muslims, if not directly in some places, indirectly.
For example Iraq.
The UK ad the US were at first all insistant that they were looking for Osama bin Laden. So, that's fair enough, he's the leader of a terrorist organisation. I was happy when they said they'd find him and bring him to justice. But they didn't. Instead, they went to Iraq, claiming their leader (who in my eyes, is also not worthy of being called a Muslim) has WMDs. After a few years, no WMDs, just a country more in ruin than it was already. Seeing as the US army does not count to body of the civilians, it is estimated that the total minimum dead Iraqis is 53583 right now. But forget just Muslims... what about the dead troops? People lost their sons and fathers... a Muslim's life is not worth any more than an Americans. I heard there were around 8000 dead. It is not a pretty sight on both sides.
Another example?
In early 2002, not long after the 911 bombings, the Phillipines became the new training ground for American soldiers. Apparently, they were looking for bin Laden funded terrorists, instead, they killed and tortured several innocent Muslims. Some don't believe me, but here is the article published by a prominent British newspaper...
But you are right, Muslims are killing each other. I hate especially seeing the Sunni Shia' splits. I just think it's wrong. But then I remember, it happened with Catholicism and Protestant sect of Christianty, so I understand it as a possiblity. I think the Wahabi sect of "Islam" (I put it in inverted commas because it's not worthy enoguh to be called Islam) simply sickens me. They are anti-multicultural, even anti-femenist, when the Glorious Qur'an puts both men and women on equal footings, how can they do this? But it is the Muslim's fault, not Islam's fault, that this is happening. I know my religion, I've read the Qur'an, I believe it. I can't force peace onto people thousands of miles from me though.
Wow, this is my second 'lecture' today. You seem like a very enlightened person in general, who isn't really very religious and hasn't given much thought to comparative theology. The Qur'an poses the afterlife as being basically a brothel for men, but it says nothing about the eternal fate of women, accept to imply that they will either be alone or part of the harem of one of the few righteous men that make it to the Paradise.
Ha! Maybe I'm not very enlightened, I'm only 15, I just tell it like it is. Religious, a lot of people call me religious, but to be honest I really can't be the judge. I just do what my faith instructs me to do.
The Qur'an places men and women on equal footings. There are somethings that men can't do, which women can't, like wear gold or silk (the simplest ones). No, it is not Islam that does not treat it's women with respect, but the stupid governments who read the Hadiths and use it as a 'shield' against Qur'anic rules. It is known that the Hadith was changed by men, and even before this, the Qur'an said:
| Quote: |
| 6:112] We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications. |
This is one exmple of a fabricated Hadith:
"If a woman dies while her husband was pleased with her, she will enter Paradise." This Hadith was narrated by Um Salmah/At Tirmidhi.
The truth is clear, God never said in the Quran that obeying your husband is a criterion to enter paradise. Relations between the wife and the husband comes from the mutual respect and love that God talked about in the Quran. If something, even if it claims to be religious text, contradicts the Qur'an, it is wrong.
It is true, the Qur'an does promise women for men. It promises men for women as well. However it does state that women will be the minority in heaven, which is not an insult or something against women, it is just a statement. I agree with with the original poster is saying. I know someone though that hates Islam because of the way women are treated in most Islamic cultures.
| BlockUp wrote: |
However it does state that women will be the minority in heaven, which is not an insult or something against women, it is just a statement.
|
Well, that makes my original point better than any of my own arguments did! Every other religion on the planet refers to women as the weaker gender, not as the damned gender. You can't get much more chauvinistic than that.
But this brings up the question, if there are more men in heaven, but some of the men have most of the women, then what does the Qur’an promise for all those lonely guys left out in “Paradise”?
I don’t remember which verse this is, but let me bring up the single most disturbing verse in the Qur’an to me. It says not to be angry at Jews and Christians for denying the Qur’an even after its truth is manifestly demonstrated, because they are really acting out of jealousy over the closer connection that Muslims have with God.
Anyone who is not in rebellion against God would, when shown a better way, simply embrace it, instead of rejecting it out of jealousy. Only someone like Cane, in rebellion against God, would react with jealousy rather than simply embracing the proper way.
Muslims are so quick to accuse non-Muslims, or even Muslims of another sect, of being in rebellion against God, that the son of the Imam who quoted this to me, shortly there after then said that he could not “instruct” me any further because I was in rebellion against God. What is really sickening is that this Muslim thoughtlessly considered the above statement to be an expression of great tolerance. “Don’t be angry at the evil Satanists”. The pretense of tolerance is extremely thin when coupled with such a character assassination.
So I see Islam as not only a religion of profound sexism, but also one of profound religious bigotry. No other religion on the planet encodes statements of religious bigotry into there religious scriptures. While sexism is not quite so uncommon, declaring women to be the more damned gender is utterly without parallel in any other culture on Earth.My friend, you have your opinions and reasons, which you are entitled to. I'm not trying to change you.
But seriously, you cant expect there to be the exact same number of men as there will be women in Heaven? It doesn't mean a woman is less of a Muslim than her brother. But there are a lot of Muslim women I know who don't even fast or pray, so they are not completing at least two of their obligations in Islam. I am a girl, and I'm not offended by the fact that there will be less females in Heaven. God knows everything from the past and everything in the future, if there will be more men, thats just a fact.
I am a Muslim because it was my choice. There is no shortage of other religions in my home country or the country I live in. What maybe disturbs you is not really that bad at all. You claim it is a religion of sexism, you claim that it does not accept Christians or Jews, I can tell you that I have read otherwise in the Qur'an.
I understand and believe the Qur'an to be a highly symbolic text, as it contains quite accurate scientific information, but expresses them as similies. It compares to others. This is the main reason why I am a Muslim, because I cannot fail to recognise this science as other than the word of God (it was revealed 1400 years ago, when this information was not known by men or women).
I hope we can all find peace in our religions. It is not something we should be arguing about really. Religion should not make us enemies with strangers. | BlockUp wrote: |
My friend, you have your opinions and reasons, which you are entitled to. I'm not trying to change you.
|
Dear child, it is not change that I fear, but stagnation. In my culture, when a woman wishes to change a man, it is usually over some trivial matter, so I welcome your challenge to change me over a matter as profound as this. If I stay the same too long I aggressively seek out those who would challenge my way of thinking. Only dead things stay the same. Life is constantly expanding and shrinking, learning from mistakes and seeking new directions.
Let me say that I have a profound respect for Sufism, despite the fact that I read the Qur’an for four year and don’t understand how any of their profundity comes from the Qur’an. I rejected the religion that I was raised under (Methodism) at the tender age of 12, and only returned to theism at 21 because of the influence of Taoism, and seeing a complete parallel to it in my scientific studies of Chaos Theory in mathematics while in college.
| BlockUp wrote: |
But seriously, you can’t expect there to be the exact same number of men as there will be women in Heaven?
|
No other religion even contemplates the matter, but in religions such as Hinduism and Judaism where reincarnation is assumed, the assertion makes no sense at the outset. Even if that is not assumed, there are always more women than men, human genetics assures a slightly offset ratio of more women than men in all cultures.
| BlockUp wrote: |
It doesn't mean a woman is less of a Muslim than her brother. But there are a lot of Muslim women I know who don't even fast or pray, so they are not completing at least two of their obligations in Islam. I am a girl, and I'm not offended by the fact that there will be less females in Heaven. God knows everything from the past and everything in the future, if there will be more men, thats just a fact.
|
I think it goes along with the demands in the Qur’an that women hide the signs of their fertility. What men find attractive in women has been scientifically proven to be extremely sensitive queues to fertility. By demanding that girls hide themselves so pervasively it has a derogatory effect on the gene pool, much as the strictly arranged marriages of Hinduism deny the basic drives of nature and love, which has slowly but surely turned their race into something less attractive, though highly intelligent.
As to women being damned for minor lapses in religious observance, do these observances really show whether a heart is true to God or not?
| BlockUp wrote: |
I am a Muslim because it was my choice. There is no shortage of other religions in my home country or the country I live in. What maybe disturbs you is not really that bad at all. You claim it is a religion of sexism, you claim that it does not accept Christians or Jews, I can tell you that I have read otherwise in the Qur'an.
|
But it is in the manner of political rhetoric, like a Republican making insincere expressions of cordiality to Democrats. Almost every expression of supposed religious tolerance in the Qur’an is deeply coupled with a vitriolic condemnation of other religions.
| BlockUp wrote: |
I understand and believe the Qur'an to be a highly symbolic text, as it contains quite accurate scientific information, but expresses them as similies. It compares to others. This is the main reason why I am a Muslim, because I cannot fail to recognise this science as other than the word of God (it was revealed 1400 years ago, when this information was not known by men or women).
|
You are obviously way too intelligent to fall for arguments like this, and when you are older they won’t mean very much to you, if you do indeed pursue science. Right wing conservative Christians speak in much the same manner, but it is for the most part alien to the modern theological way of thinking because neither the Bible nor Qur’an, nor any other ancient scriptures, were designed to teach science. They were designed to teach profound spiritual truths. If they taught science instead then they are a fraud to start with.
| BlockUp wrote: |
| I hope we can all find peace in our religions. It is not something we should be arguing about really. Religion should not make us enemies with strangers. |
If that were so then I would be stranger to all, because I am a student of all religions, but beholden to none.I think that in general, people don't have anything against Islam.
Only the terrorists like Osama and Saddam. I think because all theyre time in the media and what they have done, and/or incurraged to do, is what some have as the general picture of Musmims.
I dont think so though, and I neither think many people on this forum does.
I'm going to put my oar in here. Before I do, I want to state up front that I am an atheist. In answer to the question what do people have again Islam, what do you mean by people? What people do you mean? Someone mentioned something about ‘in a democracy’ – would you like to name some Muslim democracies for us? Also if you are currently living in a Muslim country and you posed the question, openly, what do people have against Christianity or what do people have against Jews, what do you think the reaction of the authorities in that country would be? Most Muslim countries are dictatorships – at best maybe benign dictatorships but certainly nothing like a democracy. Islam, supposedly, treats the sexes with equality (would I even be allowed to use the word sexes in an Islamic country?) I certainly don’t think I would be able to have the debate we’re currently having right here. If men and women are equal, why do men not have to cover up their arms and faces in stifling unbearable heat?
Sunni Muslims ruled Iraq. They ran education, the militias, the police, the military, the government etc, etc, etc. Yet they were the smallest grouping (I mean the smallest of the 3 main groupings (Sunni Muslims, Sheite Muslims and Ethnic Kurds)). In a democracy (and by no stretch of the imagination can the current Iraq be considered a democracy) the Sunni Muslims would never ever again be all powerful (which is possible why they don’t want the democracy to work). They’re very likely to have little say (just like everyone else had little say when the Sunnis were in power) in the governance of Iraq. The rest of the countries whose people are fighting there are either Sunni trying to get their Sunni brethren back into power in Iraq, or other Muslims fighting a Jihad against the west by proxy under the guise of freeing Iraq, or they’re Iraqi Sunnis who want their power back. If you want to find out how brutal it is under a theocracy – ask some Iranians. But, then again, you can’t. Nuff said.
Excuse me? Stoop to Israel's level? You realise that ever since Israel's start in 1948 the country has been a victim of a large majority of the middle east? Almost every day there are suicide bombers, they are constantly the object of racial hatred, they have no level to stoop to. They are simply having to defend themselves against being completely annihilated! Israel also happens to have the best army in the world (this isn't an exaggeration or throw away comment, I'm serious), and high levels of intelligence - they don't need to blow themselves up to win a war.
[/rant]
people didnt have anything against islam, but extremists/terrorists using islam to provoke ppl to become terrorists... made people think that islam is bad and hence people are against it... all the jehad stuff and all the like stuff
PS: i m not a muslim
In reply to Emjawa. I am an ex British Army soldier and we usually thought of ourselves as the best Army in the world. I would agree, certainly, that the Israeli Army is one of the best and if not, the best. Also many Muslim countries want the total destruction of Israel. It is not going to happen. Where would they go? Israel themselves (and they've proved themselves more than capable) and the rest of the world would not let it happen after what the Nazis did. Many Muslim countries might hate the very existence of Israel - but they will have to live with it or die trying to destroy it. Hatred (against the Jews, against the Christians, against the west) is all that seems to keep some Muslim countries going. If you elect a government that ALMOST EVERY COUNTRY in the world consider to be terrorists (Hesbolah )- then you're surprised that aid to your country is cut off - then that should tell anyone with a modicum of intelligence about the mind set of the people who elected such a government. A country elects a terrorist government then has the gall to be upset that aid to that government is cut off? If you're one of those who voted for Hesbolah (and it is, of course, your right to vote for them) did you really expect other governments to just ignore it and carry on giving aid. You've got the right to vote for whoever you want. The west has the right to decide to stop aid if they want.
