Given that God is omnipotent and omniscient, why would he ask us to help others, give to the poor, etc.? He has the capability of doing this on his own. There is one instance in the Bible of Jesus implying that concern for him while he was on Earth was more important than helping others (Mary's ointment). Is this because worshipping him is more important? This particular story bothered me a lot when I was Christian, because it shows Jesus being utterly selfish. This would be okay if God would use his infinite power to fulfill the needs of the poor, but he simply does not. I will write more later.
Christianity: Why does God ask for kindness to others?
He gave us free will and so it would be wrong for him to interfere.
It's up to us to make our own choices, etc, etc.
I don't see how you could worship a god that thinks like that, but thats the reasoning behind it.
It's up to us to make our own choices, etc, etc.
I don't see how you could worship a god that thinks like that, but thats the reasoning behind it.
| John 3:16 wrote: |
| For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. |
I'm not really clear on which passage you are refering to, but I maybe able to help explain something if you give me a referance to your troublesom passage.
I think when God asks of us to give to the poor and help others, this not because God can't do these things because he is incapible. He surely has that power to do as He pleases. But for us to help others is act of service and humbleness towards others. And Jesus did say that when you do the least of these things for others, you have also done for done for Me. I can't remember where that is, but it's probably in the book of Matthew.
______________________________
Love God, love people, drink coffee.
www.socialoutcast.co.nr
I think when God asks of us to give to the poor and help others, this not because God can't do these things because he is incapible. He surely has that power to do as He pleases. But for us to help others is act of service and humbleness towards others. And Jesus did say that when you do the least of these things for others, you have also done for done for Me. I can't remember where that is, but it's probably in the book of Matthew.
______________________________
Love God, love people, drink coffee.
www.socialoutcast.co.nr
| randy wrote: |
| Given that God is omnipotent and omniscient, why would he ask us to help others, give to the poor, etc.? He has the capability of doing this on his own. There is one instance in the Bible of Jesus implying that concern for him while he was on Earth was more important than helping others (Mary's ointment). Is this because worshipping him is more important? This particular story bothered me a lot when I was Christian, because it shows Jesus being utterly selfish. This would be okay if God would use his infinite power to fulfill the needs of the poor, but he simply does not. I will write more later. |
It's the same reason your mom tells you to be kind to others. Yes, she could FORCE you to be good, but then again she doesn't want to go to hell... wait a minute... Let me try that again: Yes, she could FORCE you to be good, but then again she wants you to be a good person... yeah, that sounds a little better.
But I also see the same God who asks us to help people and to give food to poors.. ASKS his own children (atleast that's what they claim) .. to kill people (coz of not being jews) so that they can get to a place where there is honey and milk flowing or what ever.. so doesn't he contradict himself.. or is it becoz.. he was bad in old testament and became good in new testament.. or did he just changed his charrector.. I don't think any God would ask his followers to kill people... that's just evil...
OR
Did the people did what they wanted.. and dragged God into it.. I think that's what happened... so in that case... who do we blame...
Anyway.. in old testament He was a warlord and in new testament.. all of a sudden he changed to nice and peacefull... I still didn't ge the point why people accepting this as facts...
OR
Did the people did what they wanted.. and dragged God into it.. I think that's what happened... so in that case... who do we blame...
Anyway.. in old testament He was a warlord and in new testament.. all of a sudden he changed to nice and peacefull... I still didn't ge the point why people accepting this as facts...
God gave His only Son for us. That is the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate love. What do we do? We still disobey Him. We turn our backs to Him. We ignore Him. We become complacent.
If you created something to love, and be loved by forever, how would YOU feel if they turned their backs on you? My guess is not well, and you see throughout the Old Testament that God is quite displeased with the human race.
It wasn't intended to be like this.
God can do anything, that's not the issue, because God TRIED to do everything. We weren't supposed to live in a world of sickness, death, or poverty - but we do now, all because people refuse to follow Him.
If you created something to love, and be loved by forever, how would YOU feel if they turned their backs on you? My guess is not well, and you see throughout the Old Testament that God is quite displeased with the human race.
It wasn't intended to be like this.
God can do anything, that's not the issue, because God TRIED to do everything. We weren't supposed to live in a world of sickness, death, or poverty - but we do now, all because people refuse to follow Him.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| God gave His only Son for us. That is the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate love. What do we do? We still disobey Him. We turn our backs to Him. We ignore Him. We become complacent.
If you created something to love, and be loved by forever, how would YOU feel if they turned their backs on you? My guess is not well, and you see throughout the Old Testament that God is quite displeased with the human race. It wasn't intended to be like this. God can do anything, that's not the issue, because God TRIED to do everything. We weren't supposed to live in a world of sickness, death, or poverty - but we do now, all because people refuse to follow Him. |
So he's still nicer after the Jews killed his son? Yeah because that makes a crapload of sense. His blood paved the way to cleansing, yesh, I've heard if before. But shit you said he sent his only son and his ass got the smackdown laid on him and he's still nice, right? That's like you being a president, send your only son to be a diplomat in another country and he gets killed. You wanna be nice still? You got a heart of gold or a brain of shit, you decide.
And if he gave people freewill he should let them do as they please. Cut the damn apron strings basically.
Tried to do everything? With your logic he should just explode the earth, no point anyway, right? Or perhaps he's already created another race somewhere far far away and have turned his back on the human race. Possibility? Perhaps.
We'll know if the aliens who invade us have crosses on their chests... or if we invade them... who knows?
You have to realize, in my opinion, a lot of it is about money.
Having a more loving God can gain a larger following then a vengeful God. That is why churches have changed the way they taught the Bible a few hundred years ago. If you take a look at the history of Puritans and Quakers, they preached an angry and vengeful God and no one likes hearing how they are all condemned to Hell no matter what they do or don't do.
Having a more loving God can gain a larger following then a vengeful God. That is why churches have changed the way they taught the Bible a few hundred years ago. If you take a look at the history of Puritans and Quakers, they preached an angry and vengeful God and no one likes hearing how they are all condemned to Hell no matter what they do or don't do.
| socialoutcast wrote: |
| And Jesus did say that when you do the least of these things for others, you have also done for done for Me. I can't remember where that is, but it's probably in the book of Matthew. |
There's also an interesting passage in Revelation where he judges those who have not taken care of the poor, and rewards those who have.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| God gave His only Son for us. That is the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate love. What do we do? We still disobey Him. We turn our backs to Him. We ignore Him. We become complacent.
If you created something to love, and be loved by forever, how would YOU feel if they turned their backs on you? My guess is not well, and you see throughout the Old Testament that God is quite displeased with the human race. It wasn't intended to be like this. |
If you believe this, then you have accepted a god who is neither omniscient nor omnipotent, contrary to what the Bible says. Saying that the human condition was not God's intention denies him the power to control his own creation and the ability to understand his creation (then you start getting into predestination and election, which is an entirely different topic than the one supposedly on this thread).
| QrafTee wrote: |
| That's like you being a president, send your only son to be a diplomat in another country and he gets killed. You wanna be nice still? |
That's exactly what happened, but with a few major facts left out. God did not send his Son to talk with us humans and reach a compromise as a diplomat would have, he sent his Son to die. Both Jesus, and God were well aware that Jesus had to accept the penalty (not just physical death, but spiritual death as well), and Jesus willingly submitted, and accepted that penalty. His death was needed, and both were willing to take the sacrifice out of love, so yes, they probably still want to be nice.
| QrafTee wrote: |
| Tried to do everything? With your logic he should just explode the earth, no point anyway, right? |
Yes, he tried and did accomplish everything, why destroy his creation when he has already provided for its salvation. The whole purpose of the world is to give God glory, and only we have been given the free will to do so. The angels praise him because they have no choice, we praise him because we chose to.
| gh0stface wrote: |
| Having a more loving God can gain a larger following then a vengeful God. |
Only partially true, yes teaching a likable god does tend to gain a larger following, but teaching a more vengeful god can lead to a more devoted following (like radical Islamic militants, the puritans etc). Personally I follow a loving God who sometimes appears to be overly wrathful because of his love for me. Following a god who just likes me would be easier, because he could be a "weekend" dad, never disciplining me because it's unpleasant for both of us...
God does not require us to do good works, but instead we desire to do good works in response to His love. That is where Martin Luther broke off from the Catholic church, he stated that we are "saved by grace alone through faith alone". We receive the grace from Christ, who took on our sin penalty and paid the price. If we truly realize our condition and accept the grace, we cannot but help responding by glorifying God and doing his will.
Last edited by Montressor on Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:38 am; edited 1 time in total
Last edited by Montressor on Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:38 am; edited 1 time in total
| Quote: |
| If you believe this, then you have accepted a god who is neither omniscient nor omnipotent, contrary to what the Bible says. Saying that the human condition was not God's intention denies him the power to control his own creation and the ability to understand his creation (then you start getting into predestination and election, which is an entirely different topic than the one supposedly on this thread). |
Okay, if we're going to be anal about I will reword what I am trying to say.
God originally created us to live in perfect harmony with Him. But we, being the rebellious and self-centered beings that we are, denied God, and angered God, and now we live in a fallen world.
We don't know many things. We are not prepared to deal with the deep secrets of the Universe, as God's Mind and Will. Look at what we are doing destroying our own planet, for example.
Christ Gospel is simple: to love each other. But it is not easy.
Instead of complaining of God, we should look at ourselves and try
to do our best in this life. Because we don't know what cames after... However, we'd better be prepared for anything, including a judgement for our acts.
Christ Gospel is simple: to love each other. But it is not easy.
Instead of complaining of God, we should look at ourselves and try
to do our best in this life. Because we don't know what cames after... However, we'd better be prepared for anything, including a judgement for our acts.
| Montressor wrote: | ||
There's also an interesting passage in Revelation where he judges those who have not taken care of the poor, and rewards those who have. |
Just so that you know, The book of The Revelation is about things that have yet to come. The judgements which you refer have not happened yet, but when they do you'd better be certain that you are right and just. This is the ultimate judgement which is a result man's concided ways which drove us apart from him.
| Quote: | ||
Okay, if we're going to be anal about I will reword what I am trying to say. God originally created us to live in perfect harmony with Him. But we, being the rebellious and self-centered beings that we are, denied God, and angered God, and now we live in a fallen world. |
... this is why God has sent His only son as a sacrifice to die for our sins. To put it plainly, it is these sins we comment which causes this seperation from God. As God is perfect, we should try to be in order live in harmony with Him. Since we are not perfect and our wrong doings get in the way a secrifice had to be made. Historically (OT times) that sacrifice was usually some animal which its secrifical effects where only temperary. When Christ died for us, He took our wrong-doings and forgave them all, past, present and future, so that our relationship with God is restored.This is where we are saved by grace and God's love.
______________________________
Love God, love people, drink coffee.
www.socialoutcast.co.nr
| Quote: |
| But I also see the same God who asks us to help people and to give food to poors.. ASKS his own children (atleast that's what they claim) .. to kill people (coz of not being jews) so that they can get to a place where there is honey and milk flowing or what ever.. so doesn't he contradict himself.. or is it becoz.. he was bad in old testament and became good in new testament.. or did he just changed his charrector.. I don't think any God would ask his followers to kill people... that's just evil... |
The OT is revealing of Judgement for a sinful humanity.
The Old Canaan land are filled with people who goes from bad to worst, and God is preparing a judgement on that land.
It is a good land, but filled with degrading morality - homosexual, godless living, idolatry, lawlessness. It seem our present world is also heading the same degrading path.
God did not punish that land till its sinfulness has reached its maximum, this is because of God's patience. When He finally sent His choosen people the Jews to destroy the land and all its inhabitance, their abomination has reached a very bad level.
To put it short, God shows in the OT that He will judge whether the non-Jews (such as the Canaanites) or the Jews themselves (Israel was severely judged by God in OT).
The New Testament then shows the "solution" to circumvent this pending judegment. His Son, the Saviour of the world.
God did not change in character, but reveal His character of both Holy in judgement and Gracious in forgiveness.
Sorry for joining this discussion late, as I just get to read it.
Interesting issues are raised, and with my best regards.
| socialoutcast wrote: |
| Since we are not perfect and our wrong doings get in the way a secrifice had to be made. Historically (OT times) that sacrifice was usually some animal which its secrifical effects where only temperary. When Christ died for us, He took our wrong-doings and forgave them all, past, present and future, so that our relationship with God is restored. |
Interestingly enough, the sacrifices were not able to redeem the Israelites, not even temporarily. They only served as a reminder of their sins.
| Quote: |
| 1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. |
All redemption came, and comes from the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus.
I'm pretty sure it has everything to do with Him giving man free will to do as he pleases. If God were to come in and make every person a nice person then it would go against many teachings in the Bible of God giving man free will.
| TheGeek wrote: |
| I'm pretty sure it has everything to do with Him giving man free will to do as he pleases. If God were to come in and make every person a nice person then it would go against many teachings in the Bible of God giving man free will. |
I hope you realize that is irrelevant to whether or not we should be kind to one another.
| randy wrote: | ||
I hope you realize that is irrelevant to whether or not we should be kind to one another. |
Whether or not we're kind to one another is also irrelevant to the topic of discussion. The question was "Why does God ask for kindness to others", not whether or not we should be kind to others. TheGeek's post was much closer to the topic of discussion in that he tried to explain why God would ask rather than force us to do good.
First this thread made me a little sad, because a lot of people seem to think God is just some evil person. But reading on, I liked the postings of Montressor and SocialOutcast.
I believe God created the world and mankind and He was proud of it. It was all very beautifull. And the nicest thing in it were we, humans. Indeed, He gave us free will, that is: we could do as we please. We are his children.
As a loving Father He was hurt wenn we choose against Him. But He still loved us. In the old Testament, people slapped Him in the face, so to say, by bringing child offerings and so killing His beloved ones, etc. In the end He punished them, but the people of them (for example a woman from Jericho named Rachab and one from the country of Moab named Ruth) who still loved Him were not punished.
I find it very difficult to read about all the people who were killed in the old Testament. But I now the culture of the Ancient Near East and I now how many of those people were actually spared by God. (Read about the Philistines or the Amorites or the Edomites etc.)
To say something about the question Randy started with: I believe God wants us to help other people, because He wants us to be loving like He is. He helps more people then we could ever do. He created mankind and saves the people who want to be saved by Him. Every day, He gives a lot of people a lot of luck.
The question about Jesus being selfish: I don't think Jesus was selfish. At that moment He spoke to people who thought about the money spilled by the woman. He spoke to Judas, who was a thief and who saw less money for the poor, which he could steal from. Judas was selfish. He, and the others Jesus spoke to, just SAID the money could be given to the poor, but they didn't want to DO so. I believe that's what Jesus ironically responds to when He says that the poor people will always be among them.
If He was selfish, He wouldn't have come to the world in the first place and if He had done so, He would probably have been a very rich and famous docter. He wouldn't have died on a cross.
Yours,
JohanFH
| TheGeek wrote: |
| I'm pretty sure it has everything to do with Him giving man free will to do as he pleases. |
I believe God created the world and mankind and He was proud of it. It was all very beautifull. And the nicest thing in it were we, humans. Indeed, He gave us free will, that is: we could do as we please. We are his children.
As a loving Father He was hurt wenn we choose against Him. But He still loved us. In the old Testament, people slapped Him in the face, so to say, by bringing child offerings and so killing His beloved ones, etc. In the end He punished them, but the people of them (for example a woman from Jericho named Rachab and one from the country of Moab named Ruth) who still loved Him were not punished.
I find it very difficult to read about all the people who were killed in the old Testament. But I now the culture of the Ancient Near East and I now how many of those people were actually spared by God. (Read about the Philistines or the Amorites or the Edomites etc.)
To say something about the question Randy started with: I believe God wants us to help other people, because He wants us to be loving like He is. He helps more people then we could ever do. He created mankind and saves the people who want to be saved by Him. Every day, He gives a lot of people a lot of luck.
The question about Jesus being selfish: I don't think Jesus was selfish. At that moment He spoke to people who thought about the money spilled by the woman. He spoke to Judas, who was a thief and who saw less money for the poor, which he could steal from. Judas was selfish. He, and the others Jesus spoke to, just SAID the money could be given to the poor, but they didn't want to DO so. I believe that's what Jesus ironically responds to when He says that the poor people will always be among them.
If He was selfish, He wouldn't have come to the world in the first place and if He had done so, He would probably have been a very rich and famous docter. He wouldn't have died on a cross.
Yours,
JohanFH
Montressor,
Good point. Thanks for the little lesson on nuances.
Good point. Thanks for the little lesson on nuances.
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